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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
Hi everybody,
I'm a newby and I would appreciate anyone's thoughts about this. I am a college student who sought therapy last year to deal with my depression and anxiety. I was assigned at random to a pre-doc intern at my universtiy clinic.
I grew very close to him and we developed a close and intimate professional relationship. I know there was a lot of transference flying around in there. I knew that he cared about me very deeply and when the school year ended it was very hard to terminate. He had been preparing me for this reality, but not seeing him has been the hardest thing I've experienced in awhile. I cannot go back to him b/c he is doing his post-doc fellowship at another university 60 miles away.
He often reassured me that he would not forget me when we were done with therapy. He told me that I was welcome to call him if I wanted to hear his voice or e-mail him as well. I have tried to have some regular contact with him this year and his responses have been very cold. Basically has told me that he feels like it would blur the boundaries and make things confusing. But what is confusing is how he's going back on all the things he said to me! It makes me wonder if I should have trusted him that much.
My depression has subsided and things in my life are going well. However I'm back in therapy, trying to deal with this tremdous loss and move on. The T I have now is good, and she's spoken to my former T about my case, but I don't really have the answers about why the fast turnaround. It hurts so much sometimes. My current T and I have agreed that there was probably work we didn't get to do together which is making the separation so hard.
Does anyone have any thoughts or experiences with post-treatment contact? And BTW, you all seem like a great and supportive bunch of people.
Posted by antigua on November 23, 2004, at 7:49:29
In reply to communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
As you explore your relationship w/your old T with your new T, please try to remember one thing: It's not always about you and what you've done, what you expected, etc. Sometimes, we run into Ts that aren't capable or willing to handle us and when they get in over their heads w/their own issues they run and hide, espcially newbies as they become more experienced. He may hide behind professional boundaries, which can be frustrating, but try not to take it all on yourself.
I could, of course, be totally off track, so feel free to disregard my opinion, but I had a bad experience w/a T last year and my background made it too easy for me to place all the responsibility on my behavior, when in fact he had behaved unethically.
Welcome to babble!
antigua
Posted by Joslynn on November 23, 2004, at 9:02:31
In reply to communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
Hmm, my guess is, because he was a newbie intern, he was a bit naive about therapy boundaries and let it get too close. Then, perhaps as he learned more about therapy, transference, etc., he realized that his previous attitutde was blurring boundaries, so he tried to back pedal. This would of course be confusing to you, but it sounds like inexperience and learning on his part, and nothing at all that you did wrong.
Posted by Susan47 on November 23, 2004, at 10:41:53
In reply to communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
messadivoce, I'll bet what your ex-therapist really means is that it would blur boundaries and make this confusing for *him* .. I mean, we know you want to keep in touch with him because he's an important part of your life, and always will be, but he's probably afraid you'll be the same to him, and then, there's the issue of your transference, right, I mean, did he really help you? I'm being extremely sarcastic here, just so you know. I'm being a bit vicious to therapists in general because I've seen so much of this b.s. where therapists say that you can communicate with them, they say they completely understand how important you are to them, but when therapy's over it's like they have a crisis of faith as to whether they really helped you and maybe it's dangerous or something to allow themselves to say hello, how are you? What's new? I'm fine, thanks. How're the kids? ETc etc, as though it will lead back into a therapy relationship and they wouldn't have the strength of character to tell you you may need more therapy. Oi.
Posted by Susan47 on November 23, 2004, at 10:43:45
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story, posted by Joslynn on November 23, 2004, at 9:02:31
Let's all hope you are right, but honestly I've seen quite a lot of *experienced* therapists who don't know how to handle a termination and keep it good.
Posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 11:49:59
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story, posted by Susan47 on November 23, 2004, at 10:41:53
Susan, thanks for your comments and thanks everybody. My ex-T did help me tremendously and I know he worked very hard with me. He did tell me in his last e-mail that he did not want to "process" any feelings with me and that it wouldn't hurt to go back to therapy. Ouch! I wasn't looking to "process" anything, just wanted to reaffirm the connection we had by saying hello, what's going on. As for his "going back to therapy" comment, it felt like a huge brush off. But something I have come to realize is that this may NOT be about me at all! I've been blaming myself but it may not be that simple.
The struggle is reconciling the kindhearted man I knew with the cold one I'm feeling now.
Posted by Susan47 on November 23, 2004, at 20:39:18
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 11:49:59
Unfortunately, there's a business side to this therapy thing and the feelings we have that are all about love, trust, and opening up, are the feelings these people, these therapists, seem to have to fight. I know there are good reasons for that.
It doesn't help us, though.
Posted by pegasus on November 24, 2004, at 13:27:34
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 11:49:59
I think that terminating therapy is complicated and confusing for both the client and the therapist. Only, I think a lot of therapists don't realize how complicated it is, and so they rely on the "rules" that are laid out in the ethical guidelines of their professional organizations, or whatever, to deal with the confusion. I've been in grad school to become a counselor, and I can tell you that none of my classes have come close to touching on termination in an adequate way. What I've learned about termination is as a client, and that lesson has been very painful. Although, thank goodness, I did terminate with a T who understood and respected the power of the attachment that he had encouraged during out therapy. So he has maintained email contact with me, and his messages are usually quite warm, even if often short. It makes a world of difference.
I bet your ex-T just doesn't understand what happens to a client during termination. And I can tell you that what they teach in the classes is that you shouldn't maintain much contact with clients after termination. Which in my opinion is cold, and even cruel. But the goal in that teaching is that you don't want to encourage a client to continue to be dependent on you, when that's not going to be in the client's best interest, because you can't be fully available to them as a therapist. The goal is noble, even if the recommended method is off the mark, IMHO.
By the way, I had an interesting disussion with my current T about how different approaches to therapy put a different amount of emphasis on that attachment between client and therapist. My old T used a form that particularly encouraged attachment, which made the termination really hard. My new T uses a more egalitarian, collaborative mode, that does indeed make me feel less attached. So I'm hoping when I terminate this one, it'll be easier.
But, oy, do I still feel the pain from that previous termination! I wish you much luck in working with this.
pegasus
Posted by Susan47 on November 24, 2004, at 21:44:05
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story, posted by pegasus on November 24, 2004, at 13:27:34
My oi and your oy are different, but I think we have the same pain, even though you didn't post to me.. I found what you said to be tremendously comforting.
Posted by 10derheart on November 25, 2004, at 0:02:35
In reply to communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
Hi all - I'm been following this thread with great interest. I have experience with post-treatment contact as I am living through it as we speak. My former T. and I have been exchanging emails for about 2 months. We ended our work together in July when he moved away, and I wrote him a letter in September. We've been talking ever since, believe it or not. He is quite experienced, and has been honest about the lack of addressing this area properly in training (he's been a pdoc for 16 years). He is alternately warm and matter-of-fact in his emails. Then sometimes, very theoretical or detached when explaining something. For example he'll write, "One would think that...", or maybe, "Most therapists don't..." instead of using any "I" or "you" statements. It used to drive me crazy, being impersonal, but I have realized I'm longing for the level of communication we had in the therapy room, which just can't be.
I also wonder if it's subtle way for him to back off very, very slowly. I suspect in this situation a T. needs as many tools as he can think of, and ways to protect himself, too, so he can stay focused on the goal of an eventual full transition. (oh, how I hate that goal :(( So, maybe it helps to change his tone and manner somewhat. He is doing his best to support me during the transition, which is proving to be confusing, hard work (probably for him, too).
I particularly relate to Pegasus' post about the process - very insightful.I've been wanting to post so badly lately. Needing some support from the only people (Babblers) who can possibly understand the uniquely intense bond, and how excruciating termination can be. But, every time I think to do it, I either don't want to stir up the feelings or I just don't know what to say. Maybe I'll try again very soon. This is bound to get harder before it gets easier.
Messadivoce, I'm sorry you had to experience post-therapy communication in a hurtful way. Ending therapy is so very hard, but then to have to endure what I see as his broken promises, is so rough. But, I'm so glad your T. sounds like he was awesome and truly there for you during your work together. I know it doesn't help much, but I try to remind myself no one can ever take away what we learned together with them, or the many amazing moments we had because we were so close and attached. It comforts me somewhat. Do you think in the future it'll be possible to have some contact with your former T. again, and repair some things? If you want that, of course. You may not. But after more time, experience and supervision, I'm wondering if he may want to communicate in a more supportive way with you. My best to you and hope your new T. keeps helping.
I tried to go it alone but am starting the process of "interviewing" new T's now. I'm doing really well w/the things that brought me to therapy several years ago, but am afraid to go through the rest of this transition, trying to detach from old T., by myself. I need a safe place to rant, rave, cry and complain about it. I pray I find the right new T. who can deal with that. Old T. thinks it's a good idea, and says it's rare that a client gets to explore a painful termination with another T., so he feels it's a a good sign of moving along in the transition that I'm willing to do that. We shall see. I seldom feel as confident about it as he sounds. Just sad and hating the reality of the situation. But I am blessed by his navigating this with patience, care and grace.
Hang in there - we will all get through these things. :) 10derHeart (aka Deb)
Posted by daisym on November 25, 2004, at 0:54:09
In reply to Re: comm. after termination--my story (very long), posted by 10derheart on November 25, 2004, at 0:02:35
Sounds like you are working really hard. I'm glad you've made contact with your old T and are working through things slowly. Good luck with finding a new therapist.
Nice to see you posting. You don't have to know what to say always, just jump in and say hey!
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by messadivoce on November 25, 2004, at 2:36:22
In reply to Re: comm. after termination--my story (very long), posted by 10derheart on November 25, 2004, at 0:02:35
10derhearted, thank you so much for your thoughts. It is so true that no one else can understand WHY you would grieve for a therapist...aren't we supposed to be "all better" when we terminate? Not true......
I wish my former T would have handled me the same way yours is handling your termination. You hit the nail right on the head when you said that there is no way to regain the intimacy that was there in the therapy room.
The T I have now spoke to my former T not too long ago and found out that one reason he is refusing to communicate is because he is being supervised at his new place (he's a post-doc) and they seem to think that it's not smart to communicate with me. It doesn't seem fair to me...they don't know the situation, they don't know me and they don't know the relationship we had.
Apparently he was very apologetic on the phone...admitted that he did not handle my termination well...but the last terse e-mail I got from him implied that this was MY fault. It think it would have helped me to know the whole picture.
It has been 6 months since termination and I am fimally starting to let myself grieve for him. I feel raw and bruised and pretty beaten up and all I can do is let myself feel that way for now...I cannot begin to fathom future contact. Of course I would love to see him again, to make peace, to learn about his family and his life...but is it really possible? Would he even want to hear from me?
Like I said I'm in college...and after finals I am going to go into the clinic and obtain my treatment records...my current T said she thought it was okay. I looked over my file briefly and discovered I'm going to need serious time with them to decipher the handwriting! It felt so good to hold something tangible in my hands and to know that here is proof that YES, this DID happen, and now he's gone.
Even the fact that his handwriting his horrible is endearing and nostalgic.
This is long. I'm sorry for that, but it feels good to say this to people who understand. Thank you.
Posted by 10derheart on November 26, 2004, at 0:01:01
In reply to Re: comm. after termination--my story (very long), posted by daisym on November 25, 2004, at 0:54:09
Posted by peacefeline on November 26, 2004, at 19:47:37
In reply to Re: 10derhearted, posted by messadivoce on November 25, 2004, at 2:36:22
Just an observation, here. One goal of therapy, IMO, is to become more honest with ourselves and others.
Yet, what's wrong with this picture? How many people's former T's won't just come right out and say "I don't want to encourage too much dependence, because I can't be available to you as a true therapist, since we have terminated." Just put the whole ethics thing out on the table! We're not stupid, we could "get it" if only "it" was spelled out for us from the T's point of view!
Also--I'd suspected about the lack of training in regard to termination. Many T's seem to be way undertrained in the "real" issues. Kinda like overtraining a combat medic with regard to viruses, dental hygiene, and sports injuries, while failing to mention that there could be some bullets flying around doing damage!Susan
Posted by terrics on November 27, 2004, at 9:18:37
In reply to communication after termination--my story, posted by messadivoce on November 23, 2004, at 2:48:18
Sorry things became such a mess. I find therapists who do not have strong enough boundaries fall into a bind when therapy terminates. I think they mean what they say, but then realize they made a mistake regarding boundaries.
I have a therapist now who has very strict boundaried and I have learned that this is a great help for a therapeutic relationship. I have learned to like her after much fussing. We did have to discuss the boundary thing because she came off as COLD. She took a 3 week vacation and never apologized for hurting me, but she has changed her ways without jeopardizing her boundaries. She shares a little which makes her more human. My previous therapist shared EVERYTHING. Sometimes she joked about her paying me instead of v-a-v. I know Lots of her history; her family, friends, vacation spots, mental illnesses, etc. I was in love with her which made me sick. I only switched therapists so I could be involved in a DBT program. Between the 2 therapists I would say that the cool one is much better and safer for me. In the end though my first therapist and I became friends...now we can rely on each other. Maybe this has nothing to do with your problem, but trust me, it is too difficult to become so close to someone whom you will most likely end contact with...Don't forget too that he was not all that experienced. terrics
Posted by LG04 on November 27, 2004, at 10:36:20
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story » messadivoce, posted by terrics on November 27, 2004, at 9:18:37
hi terrics,
i haven't written in a long time but i read the posts every so often.
i am interested in the fact that you and your first therapist became friends.
i am terminating with my therapist who i am very close to b/c i moved back to the united states. we are going thru a process where i am lessening my dependence upon her little by little and at some point we'll have a "time out" in our relationship...and eventually we have discussed the possibility of becoming friends. but first the current relationship we have has to end. we both want to be in each other's lives, but we're just not sure what the parameters will be. the only thing we know for sure is that i need to not be dependent upon her or have strong transference towards her anymore. (if we are ever to be friends)
Also it will be very hard for me to begin a relationship with a new therapist if i am still so deeply involved with her, so that is another reason why (besides that we now live half a world away from each other!) we are working on decreasing my dependence and transference. and it's working, i see a lot of progress. but it's hard sometimes. but i still am very grateful that she is open to different ideas for our relationship. it would have been terrible for me to terminate and that's it. i think it would have been very damaging to me and to all the trust that we have built up, and to the idea that she cares about me and everything.
by the way her boundaries are mostly good. i know a lot about her because i ask a lot of questions. she never offers information on her own. i know some of her issues because they come up in our relationship but i have no idea what kinds of issues she has with others. i don't know anything about her friends or family (except simple facts that i've asked like how many children she has, etc.), i don't really know any of her history (again other than a few facts), she doesn't ever tell me any of her problems, she doesn't turn to me for comfort or caretaking, etc. She's very good at keeping her needs out of the relationship except when she has to assert them to set boundaries. (which i hate!)
my biggest issue with her is that sometimes because we are so close, we might start to joke around and then she can lose her professionalism and be sarcastic or flippant with me (she told me she tends to be sarcastic in "real life"), and it can hurt my feelings. but i think it's hard to have it both ways...i.e. if i enjoy/want to have a close and intense relationship with her, then it means i am getting "more" of her. and "more" of her means a more real, rounded out relationship with her and this will sometimes include negative slip-ups since she is, after all, human. (darn!) (mostly it happens when we are talking on the phone from her home...in her office, she is more focused. she also has ADD, which doesn't help. so do i, by the way.).
anyway i wanted to hear if it's working for you two to be friends, and did you take a time-out, have you discussed the boundaries, the parameters, anything like that? did you have transference with her? if so, how did you work thru that to become friends? did you have dependence issues? my therapist wants to be very careful about this whole thing. i appreciate that.
any light you can shed would be interesting. and if anyone else reading this has had similar experiences, i'd be interested to hear.
thanks!
LG04 (who can't even envision yet seeing a new therapist...anyway i won't have enough money for a few months so meanwhile it's a non-issue).
Posted by terrics on November 27, 2004, at 13:09:36
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story » terrics, posted by LG04 on November 27, 2004, at 10:36:20
Hi, We started very slowly when we decided to become friends. (It is really against state policy). We use the same library and I met her there. She asked me over for coffee. We have since been out for lunch and dinner. She finds it hard to come to my house. (perhaps a home court advantage type of thing), but I again went to her house. It was very awkward at first so we discussed why. I felt that she had the power because I felt as though she was still my therapist. We talked about our relationship being mutual and that she did not have power. It has become easier to go out together and much easier to call her on a chit chat basis. This has taken about 6 months. She is a much happier person than I am and therefore good for me. I am usually depressed so I really do not know what she is getting out of the friendship...she is getting something though...She has said so. Take it slow and do not expect too much at first. I found most problems resolved themselves. Good luck...go slow...enjoy everything. terrics
Posted by LG04 on November 28, 2004, at 4:02:48
In reply to Re: communication after termination--my story » LG04, posted by terrics on November 27, 2004, at 13:09:36
This is the end of the thread.
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