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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 49. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:11:10
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:12:58
> I'm sure you know that I'm rather new here... I've been doing a bunch of reading on the various boards, but I haven't really heard anyone who had experiences as simmilar to mine before I read your last post.
I didn't know you were new. I have trouble keeping people/identities straight.
> We do a bit of talking "around" a subject here, without really opening up until either triggered or asked, I've noticed.
I'd hate to generalize like that. Sometimes I wonder if anyone is even interested, but that's probably got a lot more to do with what's going on inside of me than anything else.
> I appreciate you opening up with me to show me that you do, in fact, understand.I'm glad you felt validated.
> I notice that in your posts you are extremely knowledgeable. I am often accused of "thinking too much"; I think I use it as a mechanism- sort of a dissassociation from feeling.There is a possibility of using thinking to remain superficial or to create detachment. But that's not necessarily the case.
> Do people accuse you of these things, too?
Accuse? Wow, that's a strong word. I think a lot, but I feel deeply. I don't see them as being mutually exclusive processes.
> And if so, does that help or hinder your therapy?
The thinking part of me helps me to find the best words. The feeling part of my is facilitated when I find the best words.
> I find myself ambivalent- there are good things and bad things about knowing these things about myself. Still haven't figured out whether it is a good thing or a bad thing that I use the "smarts" as a tool to avoid more chances of getting hurt.
Coping strategies are not simply adaptive or maladaptive. They have benefits and costs, and those are dependent on the situation. It may be that you're sensing that becoming superficial via cognitive processes is less adaptive for you, as time goes on?
> Any thoughts on that? As I am 37, your extra 10 yrs experience can only add to my own theories!Keeping from feeling is a way of reducing the possibility of being hurt, but I'd rather feel life to the fullness of my capability.
> And, as advice should be, only used if it feels right to me. I know, I know, no two people are alike. But sharing in this "safe" haven seems to be cathartic in its way...
>
> Thanks again,
> sunny10I hope you do share. Dialogue is a two-way street. I'm sure you have much to teach others.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:22:06
In reply to Re: Fading away, posted by pegasus on November 2, 2004, at 13:38:50
> It's interesting, but I have both completely missing memories that other family members assure me really happened, and missing memories that are more like fuzzy times where I don't have the details anymore but I'm sure things happened.
>
> For an example of the latter, I had a bad year where certain things definitely happened, but I don't remember them. I saw a psychiatrist during that year, but I don't remember anything about seeing her except waiting for the bus to go to my appointments, and having a prescription from her rejected at the pharmacy because my insurance wouldn't cover it. Everything in between is gone. I somehow know that it was a woman that I saw, but I have no recollection of her at all. I couldn't tell you whether I saw her for 6 sessions (seems likely because of the insurance) or for the whole year.
>
> My family tells me that when we were kids my sister hit me on the forehead with a book which caused a big gash requiring stitches. I have no recollection of this, although I was old enough that I *should* remember going to the emergency room and everything. But no. If you asked me independently, I'd say it never happened. But I do have the scar.
>
> Memories are slippery beasts, indeed.
>
> pegasusOh, ain't that the truth.
There's another factor to consider, too. Some memories are state-dependent. In other words, they're locked away until you find yourself in a similar state of mind. A definition: "Learning that occurs in one state or affect or consciousness is best recalled in that same state of affect or consciousness."
State-dependent learning/recall may have saved my life.
I learned about firearms in a military organization, and became a marksman. I owned a rifle, and I stored it with a trigger lock, the magazine and cartridges stored separately, also under lock and key.
Three separate occasions, I was suicidal, and went for the rifle. I couldn't find the trigger-lock key, or the bullets. I couldn't carry out my plan. Yet, when my mood recovered, I could go straight to all the bits without the slightest hesitation. I only had a problem finding them when I was suicidal.
I finally told my psychiatrist about these episodes, and he convinced me to have the firearm destroyed. The police came to my home, to take the rifle et al away, and I couldn't find the bits. I was in that state again. I had to take the rest in to the police station a few weeks later.
I'm glad memory isn't like a tape recorder or a hard drive.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 4, 2004, at 15:33:04
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, * » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on November 4, 2004, at 14:11:10
Most of the time I feel that there are no words as powerful as what I am feeling, therefore I struggle to find "suitable words".
But, yes, I do not see how I can remain ME while talking out my butt, just because I'm "coping".
Coping does not alleviate the pain I feel inside- it simply gets me to the point where other people don't stick me in a hospital!
I would rather believe in hypnosis! "Sunny10, you are a worthwhile person, not everything that happens in your life will turn out badly," et cetera, might be helpful if planted deep in my subconscience... All of the cognitive therapies are just that, cognitive. I think I need something a little deeper. I'm not stupid, I'm depressed !
-sunny10
Posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » gardenergirl, posted by sunny10 on November 1, 2004, at 14:29:56
Wow, sounds like you do have a lot of fodder for therapy. But then I guess we all do...some is just more intense perhaps than others.
About co-dependency...I have some experience with that, as I grew up with an alcoholic father. My brother is also an alcoholic, and I would say my mom is quite co-dependent on him. In their case, (and you could never convince them of it), Mom takes care of my bro every time he loses a job or gets evicted or whatever. She pays his rent, does his laundry, provides a place for him to return time and time again. It drives me and my sister nuts as we are so afraid that someday (ugh) when she is no longer here to take care of him, he will turn to us.
My brother is clearly dependent on my mom. He is 40 going on about 14. So why does my mom do this? My guess is that she gets important needs of her own met by having someone depend on her. She doesn't have much else in life besides work and dealing with my bro. Perhaps an overboard response to the empty nest syndrome? :)
So, are you dependent on abusers? No. But many if not most people who are abused DO get something out of the relationship. If you got nothing but abuse, clearly you wouldn't continue the relationship. In the case of a child, the child literally is dependent on the abuser. For adults, it's harder to pin down what needs are being met. But something is there.
Does this make sense?
Take care,
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
> So, are you dependent on abusers? No. But many if not most people who are abused DO get something out of the relationship. If you got nothing but abuse, clearly you wouldn't continue the relationship. In the case of a child, the child literally is dependent on the abuser. For adults, it's harder to pin down what needs are being met. But something is there.
>
> Does this make sense?
>
> Take care,
> ggIt's hard to know any more if my thoughts are original in the slightest, or if I've borrowed them all from others, but I think that there is a tendency to go to the familiar. All abusers share a common characteristic, conditional love. They want you to be a certain way (even if it's just to take the abuse and STFU). Unconsciously, and carried over from a child's perspective, you think that might be a reasonable deal. To get love, I've got to be a certain way.
Another unfortunate aspect of this acceptance of conditional love is that it can make you reject someone who does not require this quid pro quo. A person capable of unconditional love may seem to be distant, even rejecting, if you don't know what healthy boundaries are. He's respecting, and you feel he's rejecting. Even a negative reaction is better than nothing.
When you're getting to know someone, I think you are assessing the kind of subtext, the unspoken part of how things work. I think another aspect of co-dependency can also get in the way at that point. If you've got unfinished business (often with a parent), something you want to fix, to do over, you may seek out a partner that is similar enough that you get that 'do over'. A friend of mind calls that "reliving the drama".
Co-dependency is sometimes depicted as two overlapping circles. In the overlap area, you have a blurring together of identities, and with that, responsibilities. Without boundaries, it is possible for one individual to become responsible for the other person's acts or thoughts. That's not a healthy way for things to be, IMHO.
It takes a lot of effort to change the unconscious things we do without thinking. You first need to figure out "what's wrong with this picture", i.e. you need to know what needs changing, before you can develop ways to change it.
A lot of people get to that point and come to the realization that the work in changing those things is too much for them, without realizing that most of the work has already been done. The hardest part isn't changing things, it's in figuring out what it is that needs changing at all.
So, back to the example of you're getting to know someone, and you're starting to feel that tug of the heart.....It's time to figure out if what you're feeling is, "I know this way of being. I know how this works.", or, "....
I couldn't think of what to say for the alternative. I'm still a work in progress. I think I'm better at knowing what I don't want to have again, though. I've set up some boundaries, maybe not much more than lines in the sand, but at least I know to stay over here instead of going over there.
Boundaries only work if they help you to do things differently. "I won't be talked to like that." "I don't owe anyone an explanation." "My feelings are not subject to debate." "Nobody hits me, ever." And then, acting on your belief.
I guess that's my 2¢ for today.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 9:35:53
In reply to Re: co-dependency » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
>e's respecting, and you feel he's rejecting. Even a negative reaction is better than nothing.
>
For clarity, I meant the latter comment to represent "co-dependent think".
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:54:32
In reply to Re: co-dependency, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 9:35:53
go ahead, Lar, use my name, too-- I think you've got it in one.
The whole unconditional love feeling "distant" sounds sooooooo familiar, I'm SHOCKED that I think I didn't recognize it when it happened. My SO hardly ever asks me how my day at work went and seems surprised when I ask about his. His response on last Friday was, "it's the end of the month- I'm a mechanic- how do you think my day was?" I didn't see that it's possible that he was thinking, "you know what I do for a living and every day is about the same- did you need me to recount my every action or do you want to recount your every action on a regular day?- how odd and unnecessary"...
Because my ex-husb wanted me to recount my entire day to maintain his "control"- I must have subconsciously been confused because my SO doesn't ask the same of me and I thought it was a sort of relationship ritual at the end of the day.
Or, was I originally correct and he IS just a tad distant... Jeez, now I'm confusing myself again..
-sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 11:01:50
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 4, 2004, at 23:05:35
To be perfectly frank, I don't know whether I am coming or going right now.
As far as the co-dependency goes, I THINK I am forcing myself to make great strides AGAINST that kind of behavior. I THINK...
I am more concerned by the fact that I cannot seem to "think" and "feel" the same things. I am "doing the right things", but it is completely unnatural and I'm a tad concerned that because I am "acting" differently than I actually feel, what I actually AM is a fraud ! Could "we" really be if I don't even feel like "the real me"? Can cognitive therapy practice IRL ever truly work for this reason alone?
-sunny10
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 11:40:36
In reply to Re: co-dependency » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:54:32
> go ahead, Lar, use my name, too-- I think you've got it in one.
>
> The whole unconditional love feeling "distant" sounds sooooooo familiar, I'm SHOCKED that I think I didn't recognize it when it happened. My SO hardly ever asks me how my day at work went and seems surprised when I ask about his. His response on last Friday was, "it's the end of the month- I'm a mechanic- how do you think my day was?" I didn't see that it's possible that he was thinking, "you know what I do for a living and every day is about the same- did you need me to recount my every action or do you want to recount your every action on a regular day?- how odd and unnecessary"...
>
> Because my ex-husb wanted me to recount my entire day to maintain his "control"- I must have subconsciously been confused because my SO doesn't ask the same of me and I thought it was a sort of relationship ritual at the end of the day.
>
> Or, was I originally correct and he IS just a tad distant... Jeez, now I'm confusing myself again..
>
> -sunny10I think your example with your SO isn't what I'm talking about.
A person respectful of boundaries knows when something isn't their business. Some people just choose not to ask another what's up. Not caring to find out at all is different than waiting until you're invited to talk about things.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 12:02:21
In reply to Re: co-dependency » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 11:40:36
I guess I am wondering if I am the one not respectful of boudaries anymore...
-suuny10
Posted by peacefeline on November 5, 2004, at 19:47:32
In reply to Re: co-dependency » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
I've been reading a lot of these posts for a few weeks and am really very impressed with all this collective wisdom, here. And also with how supportive a group, most of the time, this is.
Larry, your insight into codependent behavior is so eloquent, I'm printing it out so I can take some time with it...you've brought up several ways of looking at things that had not occurred to me.
Susan
Posted by gardenergirl on November 5, 2004, at 23:00:13
In reply to Re: co-dependency » gardenergirl, posted by Larry Hoover on November 5, 2004, at 7:32:05
Surely that's worth at least two bucks...
Thanks for the insight. I think the familiar makes a lot of sense, and also the difficulty with unconditional acceptance versus conditional. I think I am finding right now with my T that all of a sudden I have a hard time accepting his unconditionalness...same with my hubby. I don't know why this has cropped up after more than a year in therapy, but I suppose it might be because I am ready to look at it.
Blinders, they can be useful for a time, but then don't your eyes start to itch?
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on November 5, 2004, at 23:12:48
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people* » gardenergirl, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 11:01:50
Well, first off, I should tell you that I am not one who gets a big benefit out of CBT. I'm more responsive to psychodynamic and emotion-focused approaches. But that doesn't mean that CBT can't help. And you sound like you are on the right track. CBT works to have you act your way into feeling differently. Then you also actively work to think differently. I can understand why it might not feel natural to you at first. But hang in there.
Warmly,
gg
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 6, 2004, at 11:57:25
In reply to Re: co-dependency/Larry, posted by peacefeline on November 5, 2004, at 19:47:32
> I've been reading a lot of these posts for a few weeks and am really very impressed with all this collective wisdom, here. And also with how supportive a group, most of the time, this is.
> Larry, your insight into codependent behavior is so eloquent, I'm printing it out so I can take some time with it...you've brought up several ways of looking at things that had not occurred to me.
> SusanThank you for the validation.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 11:07:18
In reply to CBT » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 5, 2004, at 23:12:48
gg-
I have basically been weaned down to a session every two weeks.
Kind of like "maintenance" appointments. But I don't feel that I've been "shrunk", if you know what I mean...
I still feel that my inner child ( the one that ALWAYS shows up to REACT to situations) is still fully involved- and not happy! Yes, the grown up me is fully cognizant of what is logical vs illogical, but then feelings are not logical, are they? And this comes out in ALL of my interpersonal relationships...
at work- with constructive criticism,with my SO whenever we have a discussion that is supposed to be a debate- I always feel that he thinks I'm stupid and worthless,
with my father- whom I have still not called since I didn't show up the Sunday before last at a family brunch (because I was fighting with my SO)- simply because I know I have to sit there and listen to him moan and sigh about what a huge disappointment I am to him...
So why am I down to "maintenance checks" ? Just because I am a first class actress and can act; therefore "survive" each day?? Is that all there is to life? Should I just be "maintained" as I am just because I can manage to get up and go to work everyday? Am I being "spoiled" to expect SOMETHING more out of life?
Any feedback at all would be appreciated, thanks,
-sunny10
Posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2004, at 11:24:27
In reply to Re: CBT, posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 11:07:18
Hmmm, perhaps you are a good actress, because I seem to have been off-base with my other post. I think you have a similar experience to me...yeah, you can identify and re-frame what's illogical, but like you said, feelings are not logical on the surface. My own belief is that they are very logical if you can dig deep enough to get all the "facts" related. But that involves looking at your past experiences, your unconscious, and perhaps also examing transferential relationships. CBT is not designed to do that.
So what should you do? Good question. I am frustrated with practicing psychology (as a trainee) within a medical model. CBT is much more conducive to that model. Patch em up, folks. We'll see them again if it happens again. Ummmm, wouldn't it be nice if we can help prevent it from happening again? Psychodynamic therapy can help those who feel they need to go deeper than CBT in order to feel whole. But it works better within a psychological model, rather than a medical.
Is there any way you can try out a new T with a different orientation? I forget exactly what your circumstances are. Perhaps you can discuss this with your current T?
Sorry I can't be more help. Just feeling a bit cynical today...
gg
Posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 12:13:03
In reply to Re: CBT » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2004, at 11:24:27
My current T tells me not to bother with my past.
To just "let it go"....Unfortunately, I can PRETEND that I'm just fine, while I feel that I am being drawn and quartered on the inside.
Her feeling is that if I act like I'm fine long enough, I will BE fine eventually. It's been 37 years, so far.... How long do YOU think "eventually" is????
Sorry- I, too, am feeling a bit cynical today!
But, seriously, your post helped anyway, thanks,sunny10
Posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2004, at 12:41:12
In reply to Re: CBT » gardenergirl, posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 12:13:03
How funny...I didn't start therapy til I was 37. I started right in with dynamic, which is good. I can't leave the past in the past...it's what I learned. I have to figure it out in relationship to what I know and do today. And to release the pain. I suppose releasing the pain and letting that go is important, but you have to look at it to do that.
And maybe I'm negative today cause I stepped in doggie doo doo. At least I was wearing my garden clogs. D'oh!
gg
Posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 13:27:08
In reply to Re: CBT » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 8, 2004, at 12:41:12
> How funny...I didn't start therapy til I was 37. I started right in with dynamic, which is good. I can't leave the past in the past...it's what I learned. I have to figure it out in relationship to what I know and do today. And to release the pain. I suppose releasing the pain and letting that go is important, but you have to look at it to do that.
>
> And maybe I'm negative today cause I stepped in doggie doo doo. At least I was wearing my garden clogs. D'oh!
>
> ggThat's how I feel- that I can't "get over it" until I sort THROUGH it and DEAL with it before
it WILL go away! That's why I feel like the therapy is a bust.Long story short...suffered depression as long as I can remember.
OD'd in my junior year of high school. Was told I was a spoiled little girl who needed to grow up. Forced into pdoc and therapy where the therapist focussed on "learning to behave like a grown up"- didn't want to know about my childhood or WHY I had learned to think the way that I do.OD'd in my fourth year of marriage to escape an emotional abuser. (Talk to Susan47 about "sharks"-this will seem more clear). I was again told to grow up/forced into pdoc and therapist focussed on "coping skills".
Slit my wrists while going through divoce and custody battles (court gave son to husband BEFORE I slit wrists- it was why I did)Was told again to grow up/forced into pdoc and therapy based on "coping skills".
OD'd by accident last winter- so desperate to sleep while suffering depression-induced insomnia. Frankly, WOULDN'T have cared if I didn't wake up- but hospital, upon seeing that I was 37 didn't even bother with suggesting pdoc or therapy and told me to go home. I started the pdoc and therapy myself this time- the "system" didn't even care to anymore. I guess at 37 in PA, USA you are allowed to die if you want- nobody even PRETENDS to care aymore.
But I care- I don't want to survive each day- I want to live it.
Sorry about the dog poo- did you see "envy", the movie, yet?? It will give you a few giggles. It's about a guy who invents "Va Poo rize", a spraycan which makes dog poo disappear. You'll laugh. It's silly, but we all NEED silly from time to time. I rented it at the Video Store on Saturday night.
-sunny10
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2004, at 16:33:58
In reply to Re: CBT, posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 13:27:08
I don't think there is one magic approach. But like gg, I do think understanding why you act or react a certain way can help solve the puzzle. Or at least, it's a start. For me, I see a psychodynamic T. I don't
think the brain just forgets. The same issues keep resurfacting whether we want them to or not, unless we deal with the "WHY" ... at least, that is what I believe. Briefly I saw a "here and now" only type T and I kept leaving my sessions perplexed. I never got an "Ahhh ha!" moment. And I like those light bulbs going off now and then.
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2004, at 16:40:42
In reply to Re: CBT, posted by annierose on November 8, 2004, at 16:33:58
Sunny, just wanted to let you know that a psychodynamic T also does discuss the here and now issues too. We talk about anything and everything. But sometimes, she is able to tie it all together ... past, present ... then it's a good day :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 8, 2004, at 17:58:48
In reply to Memories *could be a trigger, about dead people*, posted by littleone on October 31, 2004, at 16:35:20
I'm glad you have found some of our struggles helpful in your own struggle. I think some of us go into therapy with a lot of memories ready to burst out, some have a "feeling" that something occurred, and some, like me, did not know, and are totally shocked to have memories suddenly burst out of seemingly nowhere. I suppose it depends on when the abuse or other trauma occurred- in early or later childhood,- and how effectively our brains have sealed it off from other accessible childhood memories. I am very wary of false memories, also, but, the way they have come up, and the tremendous storms of emotion which have accompanied them, have convinced me that they are real.
Posted by littleone on November 8, 2004, at 19:54:14
In reply to Re: Memories *could be a trigger » littleone, posted by Pfinstegg on November 8, 2004, at 17:58:48
Posted by gardenergirl on November 9, 2004, at 0:15:28
In reply to Re: CBT, posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 13:27:08
I need some Vapoorize! Thanks, I'll look for that movie next time I'm renting.
Sounds like you have had things rough. I'm glad you are working through some of this, and I hope that you are able to continue to do so, whether you stay CBT or switch.
Take care,
gg
Posted by sunny10 on November 9, 2004, at 10:05:41
In reply to Re: CBT » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on November 9, 2004, at 0:15:28
This is the end of the thread.
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