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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
Racer, I’m hijacking something you said above because it fits my current situation perfectly. I hope you don’t mind.
I’m looking for babbler’s opinions here because I respect you all very much.
Racer wrote:
“On the one hand, answering even though you don't feel ready can force you to open up about something you might not be ready for months or even years early, and that allows you to get through it that much sooner. In a perfect world, that would be great, but in the real world, that means that you may be laid out by something much too overwhelming at a time when you're much too vulnerable to handle it. In a perfect world, you'd have adequate support around you to keep you safe and secure while your innermost being is flayed and trying to grow back new skin. In the real world, though, that's rarely the case.”
This is where I am right now. I got in too deep w/my therapy, I think, and I’m trying to decide what to do. Please don’t advise me to discuss this w/my T as I already have to a great extent and the decision is now up to me. She is willing to help me do whatever I decide.
I recently had an accident that knocked me out of action for a week (miss me?). This accident was a direct result of my carelessness in taking care of myself and being so overwhelmed by what is going on in therapy. (Daisy, you warned me about the physical nature of this and I should have listened more carefully!) No argument here, please, even my T agrees. I could have died; thank goodness I didn’t, but I could have left my children w/o a mother, which is something I would never do willingly.
So much is coming to the surface (csa) in therapy. Then again, it has been coming for years and while I may feel that I’m closer than ever, I can’t say that’s honestly true. We all know that there are no guarantees in therapy.
Some of you know that I have two therapists: EMDR and my regular one. It has gotten a bit confusing (someone warned me, I remember!) and I’ve found myself more involved w/the EMDR T than I ever wanted to. Transference is popping up. I don’t particularly like her, but I recognize the feelings and I don’t want to go down that road w/her.
The EMDR T has also caused problems for me w/my regular T: everything is very segmented. I do the EMDR, process the feelings and then go in to see my regular T the next day and we “analyze” what happened. The insights are great, but the feelings don’t really come up w/my regular T anymore. We’ve discussed this. This week (today) I decided to stop the EMDR, maybe forever.
After the accident, I found myself mad at my regular T, as if she couldn’t be trusted anymore (is my mother here somewhere?). Here I had opened myself up like the good patient and things had gotten out of control. There is no protection, there is no safe place anymore. She can’t stop anything bad from happening to me and when it comes right down to it, I’m all alone to take care of myself. I’m not feeling sorry for myself, I swear, these are just the facts of the situation. I’m angry at myself for giving in to the belief that I could be fine one day when the facts speak otherwise. I almost died. My children would be alone. I have to count on myself, which is one of the goals of good therapy.
So, while I want to be better, I think I’m good enough now. I’ve internalized my T.
I think I’m not going to do therapy anymore. I have to focus on my own survival and protection of my children. Now please don’t say that the therapy is essential because I don’t feel that way anymore. Basically, my life is really, really good now; I’ve learned to function well. I can be satisfied w/this if opening and bleeding the wounds is going to totally unbalance me and put my life at risk. (This is the second time something like this has happened, and I stayed in therapy last time.)
Do I make any sense? Am I just trying to rationalize my actions? I’m not overly afraid of what is coming up (I’m more curious than anything) so I’m not hiding from that. I really believe that I need to stop dredging up the past so I can live for the here and now, with my children. While many of the “facts” of my csa are still unknown, I now know a lot of what happened to me. More importantly, I understand how the little girl felt and what it did to her (me) in the long run.
My T has agreed to help my “seal” my therapy, continue it or stop it w/a termination plan so it’s not too abrupt (after 14 years).
So what do you guys think? The only part I’m not willing to concede is that the accident is a cause/effect thing: it is. I know it, my T knows it.
antigua
Posted by Racer on October 4, 2004, at 14:58:24
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
I'm so sorry about your accident. I agree that it probably is related to hitting a deep spot in your therapy, for whatever that's worth to you in validation.
Here's the thing: I'm in favor of you backing off the really hard things in therapy for a while, but I'm against totally terminating. My gut says that you might find it most rewarding to process the pain that led to your accident, and then work on ways to protect yourself the next time you get close to the bone in therapy, and then take the rest of your trauma one bite at a time.
I say that based on my own experience. When I was dealing with my own CSA, as well as the events surrounding it, I went through a period when I was sure that I couldn't survive therapy. I should quit, because nothing was worth the sort of agony I was going through. I'm so very, very glad I stayed though! It was only after I lived in that cesspool of shame and agony and guilt and self-hatred long enough to dig out everything that was there that I could move through to the other side. I think if I hadn't stuck it out, if I hadn't experienced it all, I would still live in the suburbs of that world of hurt. Honestly. I wanted so much to quit, and I had all sorts of good reasons to quit, and if I had, I wouldn't be the Racer some people respect -- I'd be a very sick and twisted individual who couldn't do a damn thing for herself, because she didn't deserve anything being done for you by anyone. I'd be sitting in the dark somewhere.
All that misery, Antigua, was something I had to know all the way to the marrow of my bones, in order to grieve for the child I had been, the child who could never be saved, the child who would never have a safe place. Only after I had grieved for that child could I move on to see the good that there had been in my life, and to see the lasting damage done well enough to start to heal that, too.
I'm sorry that I can't be 100% supportive of what you want to do. I am 100% supportive of you, which is different. If you do terminate, I'll still read your posts, and answer you, and care about you. I just hope that you will continue therapy until you can travel through this agonizing landscape, and find the peaceful valley on the other side. I know how nice it is there, and I think you deserve to find out for yourself. I hope to have your company there one day, and think that continuing the work you're doing in therapy is the quickest way to get there -- despite the 14 years.
You have my best wishes, no matter what you decide to do. Be well, and take the best care of you.
Posted by fallsfall on October 4, 2004, at 15:33:40
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
Your post left me with a couple of concerns. I don't think I understand your situation enough to do more than just ask questions...
You said that you were running into transference with your EMDR therapist. And it sounds like it is a transference that is familiar to you. If you find yourself in this pattern frequently then you might want to consider staying in therapy long enough to work through it. I guess my fear would be that you will continue to end up in the same situation (and know that it *is* the same situation yet again), but not be able to resolve it. For me, that would be really frustrating.
Second, you talk about being angry at your therapist because she didn't protect you (and you recognize the connection with your mom). You seem to be saying "My therapist has proven once again that nobody can or will protect me, that I am completely on my own." This seems like a dangerous message to get from therapy. While you are ultimately responsible for yourself, I think that it is true that other people can and do help us. You seem resigned to being unable to be helped - like you won't seek help in the future because you are convinced that they would let you down. Have you talked to your therapist about pacing the therapy work, so you don't get so overwhelmed? Can you see the "out of control" as a recoverable mistake, rather than destiny?
But, at the same time, it does sound like you are functioning - and that sounds really good. I'm not functioning, so I can't imagine quitting therapy. Would your issues agree to stay hidden if you did quit therapy? Or would they rise up and surprise you?
I guess that my overall reaction is that you might do fine if you quit therapy, but that the transference issues that you talk about make me wonder if this is really the time to do so. Could you take a therapy vacation? If you left therapy and it turned out to be a bad idea, could you go back? If you decided to go back, how much connection/momentum/trust would you have lost during the quitting process?
This is a complex decision. Good luck!
Posted by lookdownfish on October 4, 2004, at 15:54:22
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
I don't feel as well qualified to comment as others might be. But my first thought is that it sounds like you're ready to give it a try. After 14 years, you can't be accused of not giving it a fair chance. I would also ask, Do you have some other support in your life? Friends / family can't replace your therapist, but we all need someone to talk to, even if its not about the most indepth stuff. And will your T take you back if you change your mind? Good luck with your decision.
Posted by daisym on October 4, 2004, at 16:31:17
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
Antigua,
I'm really sorry about your accident. (was it in the car?) I didn't want to be right about that part...and yes I did miss you. I noticed that both you and pfinstegg went quiet. I think she is on vacation.
My therapist usually advises not to make any decisions in the aftermath of some big trauma. When my husband nearly died in May, I was quitting therapy too. It was too much to handle, too disruptive. Actually I give that speech at least once per month. How do I live my life and rip it apart at the same time? So I totally understand the pain.
My therapist also tells me that this is transference in a more global way...blaming therapy for the pain I'm in. Not that it doesn't contribute to it. I understand what he is saying though, leaving therapy won't undo what happened to me.
I'm not sure I believe in the "eventually" part that everyone talks about. That eventually you HAVE to sort all this out. I think if it can go quiet for you, if it no longer drives the decisions you are making, then I think you can put it away. It might peak out sometimes, but you will probably recognize it for what it is. I don't remember how old your children are, but sometimes their developmental gains can trigger you off again. So you might need some short term therapy again. Then again, you've just started to experience flashbacks and these are often the reason people finally seek out therapy, because they are uncontrollable.
I think everyone here has made valid points. And I'm sure you've thought about this in lots of ways. I'm wondering if there isn't a middle road compromise. Can you keep working on the trauma of the accident, and with the EMDR transference and not on the csa for awhile? I'm glad you aren't considering an abrupt ending, but rather working your way out. This may take awhile and you may discover that the urge to flee isn't as strong as it is right now. This way if you have a flashback or those weird feelings, you do have someone to process them with. It also seems that you need to spend some time on rebuilding your relationship with your therapist, in a supporting sense. She is there to help you and help contain things. It is only natural to get angry when things fell apart and you got hurt, even if you "know" it isn't her fault in any real sense.
Therapy isn't suppose to be a lifetime commitment (sorry Dinah) but I also don't think is has to "end" either. Like many things, utilizing it now and then makes sense.
All that said...don't under estimate how much being confronted with your own mortality can shake you. It has a nasty way of making you take stock of things and rearranging our personal time table. Give yourself some time to rebalance.
I'm really really glad you are OK.
Daisy
Posted by partlycloudy on October 4, 2004, at 19:20:10
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
Wow. I'm considering ending my EMDR treatment too, and it's due (I think?) to a transference issue. I sense that she thinks I'm a weak person for taking her recommendation for an alternative medicine provider to heart - and being appalled with the results. I feel like I'm being scolded for something she told me to do. With the EMDR T if I'm in an anxious state I stay that way for the whole session, sometimes a bit better, but not always.
I don't get these feelings ever with my regular T. My anxiety melts away as I know that she listens but doesn't EVER judge. Makes suggestions but NEVER commands.
I'm with the others as far as not terminating therapy cold turkey, and that your accident has no doubt shaken you up, but how about backing off on the fequency of your visits for now until you feel more comfortable? Or maybe you'll decided not to go back. I just wouldn't do it like closing a door behind me.
pc
Posted by Aphrodite on October 4, 2004, at 19:53:14
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
I don't know if you've followed any of my saga, but I quit every once in awhile when the csa comes up and I feel like I can't manage my life and deal with the past at the same time. I know that feeling. I'm so sorry about your accident -- I'm glad you are safe.
It sounds like you have some guilt that taking care of yourself (e.g. therapy) may cause harm to your children. That can be a powerful deterrant in taking care of yourself if you believe it is effecting you as a mother. I've been struggling with that, too.
Apparently (and I haven't figured it out) there are good ways of "dosing" the work of csa so that the overwhelm doesn't have such an impact on your life. Does your T have any suggestion in this area?
Would you be willing to compromise and just end the EMDR (which can be powerful and retraumatizing) and see just how individual sessions go for awhile?
Or, could you take a break and work on forward-looking issues for a bit? You know, talk about future plans, what your dreams are, etc.
I'm just trying to brainstorm a compromise other than totally quitting. Maybe I am doing this more for myself than you. (Selfishness creeping in -- your post hit a nerve of my ongoing struggles with therapy.)
At the end of the day, what is your instinct and intuition on the matter? What resolution brings you peace? Some people use prayer, some use Tarot cards, some meditate -- tap into your innate intuition and do what feels like your personal truth. Only then will you feel satisfied.
Wow, I wish I could help. My heart is aching for you.
Posted by antigua on October 5, 2004, at 9:23:14
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
O.k., I wrote out a long reply to everyone last night but didn’t send it off because I wasn’t finished (oh, my agony over “word perfection” gets in the way whenever I have to write about this!). This morning, things are different. I don’t believe a word of what I wrote. I was rationalizing my decision to run away from my therapist. I don’t want to need her because I’m afraid she will totally fail me. Somehow or other I’ve twisted my accident to being her fault for encouraging me to open up about the csa. Silly, right? But honest.
I want to tell you what happened w/the EMDR T. (fallsfall, I’ve never experienced this type of transference before; it’s usually w/older male authority figures but guess now it’s time to move on to Mother). This T usually takes me to the brink of my terror and panic and then has me pull back to a safe place. Then I move a little further to the edge and back to a safe part of my body. Well, on this day I didn’t have a place on my body that felt neutral, so the T said let’s try something different. She asked me to push against her hands as strongly as I could. I was fine for about 5 seconds and then I immediately became very uncomfortable w/her being so close and touching me. I asked her to stop and to back away, which she did, but something had been triggered and it changed our relationship. It felt more intimate and that made me uncomfortable. I perceived her as weak because she didn’t push my hands very hard. (BTW, I perceive my abusers as weak despite their overpowering strength over a young girl). I realized she was only pushing as hard as I was, keeping the equilibrium between us, so in fact I was perceiving myself as weak. She was no longer “in charge” and I felt vulnerable.
I told my regular T about this the next day and after discussing it I felt really dependent on her. I didn’t want to leave her office. I’ve never felt this way before.
Over the weekend, I slipped and cracked my head open and was alone in a pool of blood for hours in a stairwell, until my husband found me and called 911. He was not with me at the time; I was with a very old friend who had come to town. I decided to spend the night w/her (pajama party) so we could have some extra time together. What happened is that I was triggered by some great fear/panic and immediately felt like I had to escape that hotel. My friend was in the bathroom when I left the room; nobody knew where I went.
I experienced flashbacks during the time I was being care for. They tied me down and knocked me out because I was so uncooperative (who, me? I’m so nice IRL). In essence, I guess I did everything I wanted to do to my abusers (hope I didn’t bite anyone!). So, the rage came out. And the consequences were bad. I woke up the next day in the hospital remembering nothing, except for the fact that I knew I had a flashback, but I didn’t remember it. Still don’t. The doctors told me I was really lucky to be alive.
Basically, I’m afraid that the risk of continuing with my T just may be too high. It’s not just “trust her,” it’s “this is too dangerous, IRL; it’s o.k. for therapy, but not for real life.” See, I can’t say that with careful planning, etc. a situation like this will never happen again.
My transference issues w/my T over the years have waxed and waned. She has generally played the good, strong mother that I never had, and she has taught me to be that way in my own life. Now I want to cut her off entirely, which is telling me that this is very significant.
I know this all has to do w/my mother, who didn’t protect me. And, although my T is great, she can’t protect me either. It’s just the plain truth. She can help, and she has helped me tremendously, but when it comes down to it, it’s just me, my body and the world.
She has spent years convincing me that I wouldn't open up until I was ready, we were going at a safe pace, and that just didn't turn out to be true. I feel like I was blindsided, by myself. I guess I should figure out why this is so devastating to me. I believe that we have core beliefs about ourselves and then there are the truths, the reality of the world we live in. Am I mixing them up too much?
So I will call my T and schedule to see her tomorrow (she would never abandon me willingly, lookdownfish, I believe that w/my heart and soul). I am putting EMDR and that T on hold for now, maybe forever. I don’t want to work through that issue w/her now because it’s too confusing. My regular T can help, and if we get into it I’m sure we’ll discover that I have similar feelings for her, especially now.
Daisy, you mentioned the ages of my children. They are all past the age I was—actually I was triggered by many things as my daughter has grown—but I will keep in mind the potential triggers, especially as my daughter grows into a young woman.
Aphrodite, yes I’ve followed your story and know what a heartbreak it has been at times for you. I was really proud of you when you decided to go back. I must say I understand your feelings much better now. I’ve never decided to quit therapy before.
And partlycloudy, I feel the same way about my EMDR T. I do feel at times that she is judging me, that she gets frustrated with why I don’t “get it.” She’s very kind, but I don’t want to develop a whole other relationship. My regular T knows me much better. EMDR has been very helpful, but until (or if) I have more concrete (ha! That hard head of mine) experiences to resolve, I won't go.
So thanks everyone. You’ve been more help than you can imagine. Racer, I’m going to steal your line about supporting me 100% but not my decision. That’s good….
best to all,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on October 5, 2004, at 11:02:56
In reply to Re: My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long) » antigua, posted by daisym on October 4, 2004, at 16:31:17
Posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2004, at 12:37:11
In reply to Re: My Therapy Dilemma/potential trigger, posted by antigua on October 5, 2004, at 9:23:14
I'm so glad that you are OK after your accident. How terrifying.
Your post is quite ambivalent. Your pain and anxiety over continuing in therapy is so clear. But I think that you are saying that you will continue with your (regular/non-EMDR) therapist at this point. Is that right?
I wish you the best, and I wish you peace.
Posted by antigua on October 5, 2004, at 12:41:40
In reply to Re: My Therapy Dilemma/potential trigger » antigua, posted by fallsfall on October 5, 2004, at 12:37:11
Posted by partlycloudy on October 5, 2004, at 15:11:03
In reply to My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long), posted by antigua on October 4, 2004, at 13:59:32
So sorry about your injury. Good luck, antigua
pc.
Posted by antigua on October 5, 2004, at 16:00:20
In reply to Re: My Therapy Dilemma/Racer too (very long) » antigua, posted by partlycloudy on October 5, 2004, at 15:11:03
Posted by Daisym on October 7, 2004, at 10:35:26
In reply to Re: My Therapy Dilemma/potential trigger, posted by antigua on October 5, 2004, at 9:23:14
Antigua,
I've been trying to think about how best to answer your last post. I'm so sorry for what happened and frightened for you. It isn't fair that your trauma and abuse in the past have the power to hurt you again in a very real way. Those old feelings are amazingly powerful. What the body holds onto, the trigger potential...wow!
I'm really, really glad you are going to be OK. And I'm glad you can see that you need your therapist to help you through THIS trauma, let alone the old stuff. Rebuilding that net of safety, knowing she is there for you, will take some time. But deep down, that foundation is still there. She cares for you and will help.
I think going back to basics is a good idea for awhile. I've read about EMDR as a powerful tool to reconnect with these old memories and process them. But sometimes the reconnection is overwhelming and you need to slow things down.
I wish I had wise words for you. I recommend "nesting" snuggling into your home and taking care of yourself. Don't push it. Let your kids help and get lots of extra hugs from them. You body will heal and so will your soul. It is just going to take some TLC and lots of time. I'd bring you cookies if I could.
Hugs from me.
Daisy
This is the end of the thread.
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