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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 17, 2004, at 10:36:39
Hi everyone...
I apologize for posting so much already. :(
I searched for this topic, but couldn't find anything. I apologize if it's already been discussed.
As some of you may have read in other posts, I see a T at the Uni where I'm a grad student. I've been seeing her for about a year and, considering we are T and client, I'd say we're fairly close. We've been through a lot together, and I would venture to say that we care about and respect each other as people.
My T's birthday is next month; she mentioned it in session once and I made a mental note. I've been thinking of getting her or making her something, however 1) I'm not sure she can/will accept gifts from clients in general and 2) since she works for the school, the school might have its own rules about staff/faculty receiving gifts.
So, I'm not sure what to do. I'd feel like a complete a$$ if I offered it and she rejected it (no matter what the reason), but I feel like, given how much she's done for me, I really want to thank her and a card wouldn't be enough (I've given her cards twice already, and those are OK).
I was thinking of getting her a mug: I already know the one I want to get. It has a silhouette of a black cat on it (she has 2 cats and loves animals) with a black moon above it, and the rest of the mug is while. It's called Zen Meditating, or something (she's Buddhist too). I wanted to ask my nutritionist about this, since she knows my T well and she also works for the school, but she's still on summer break and I don't think I'd be able to see her before my T's birthday, since the start of school and her b-day are around the same time. So, in lieu of asking, I guess here are my options:
a). Play it safe and just get her the card (or give her the card and mention the gift, and if she says she would have accepted it, bring it for the next session).
b). Make her a mug instead of buying it (would this make a difference? I guess to me, since it's still a mug, I don't see the big deal. Could I just buy the mug and tell her I made it?! *lol* She'd probably believe it, as she's seen some of my drawings and knows I'm fairly artistic and creative).
c). Give her the (purchased) mug and hold my breath.
I know the doc at school accepted a huge painting a student had done for her, but, again, it was made and not bought (although the canvas and paints must have cost $$$).Any thoughts on this? Has anyone gotten their T a birthday gift before? Normally I wouldn't consider a gift other than a card just to be on the safe side, but since we've been together for a year and given how much she does for me ( and puts up with), and our relationship, I feel I really want to do something. And I should maybe mention I won't be with her once I graduate (probably December, although I'm thinking of extending until May, but there's no guarantee I'd be able to see her past December anyway), so our time together is limited and I won't be with her for her birthday next year, so that eliminates the possibility of setting up a precedent.
I apologize for the length...I tend to ramble in writing.
Thanks for reading.
-SV
Posted by lucy stone on August 17, 2004, at 10:48:19
In reply to Birthday gift for T? OK or no?, posted by shrinking violet on August 17, 2004, at 10:36:39
Can you ask her if she would accept a small gift from you? I wanted to bring my T a small gift from a European trip I as taking and asked if he would be OK with that. He said yes, but of course we'd have to talk about it, and we did :)
Posted by shrinking violet on August 17, 2004, at 21:07:27
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no?, posted by lucy stone on August 17, 2004, at 10:48:19
>> Can you ask her if she would accept a small gift from you? I wanted to bring my T a small gift from a European trip I as taking and asked if he would be OK with that. He said yes, but of course we'd have to talk about it, and we did :)
I *could* ask her, technically, but I would never do that. I'd be too afraid of the answer, and too embarrassed to ask (I've never asked her a question about herself, even when invited to, and I've never asked for anything I think I might need, either). Plus, it would sort of blow the "surprise," and spontaneity of the moment, if she suspected in advance I was going to get her something.Although, after today....well, I'm not liking her (or me) very much right now. I'd actually be surprised if I lasted much longer as a client, so I might not even be around for her b-day. :( Although, we've been through this sort of rough spot before, but.....it's sort of getting old for both of us, so I don't know.
Has anyone ever gotten (or made) something for their T's birthday? Was it received? How did it go?
-SV
Posted by underthecs on August 17, 2004, at 21:33:44
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » lucy stone, posted by shrinking violet on August 17, 2004, at 21:07:27
Hi. I understand the "rough spots" in the relationship getting old (see my post above). But I think it does (or at least can) get better, be less intense, not as long in duration, with more good times in between... overtime, anyway. It's hard to remember the bad feelings aren't forever. It helps me to think of it in terms of moving in spirals, rather than circles. You don't necessarily come back to the exact same place, even though it feels like it, if that makes any sense.
As for the gift... I have given a gift. It was a souvenir from my vacation. It was not expensive, but it was meaningful and symbolic (to me, and I think to him as well). And yes, it was accepted. And I didn't have to do the whole "talking about why I gave it thing", either. It was accepted graciously and that was that. Although I do think you can learn a lot from figuring out why you want to give it. But heck, if we are lucky, of course we want to somehow give back for all that our therapists do for us. Sometimes it just is what it is. I say talk through this rough patch. The part of you that wants to give the gift is still inside you, too. Good luck. I hope you let us know how it goes.
Posted by Lonely on August 18, 2004, at 0:46:42
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » shrinking violet, posted by underthecs on August 17, 2004, at 21:33:44
In the business world (this applied 9 years ago - don't know about now) a gift was generally ok if it was valued at $25.00 or under.
On a completely different approach, I was kind've in a similiar spot once. My T was always lecturing me on "boundaries" (although I don't think I ever really broke them - I think part of it was just her - I'm female also) Then, just before Christmas of 2002 I was chatting away about some little gifts I was giving to friends. I happened to glance up at her for a second and saw the hurt and disappointed look on her face. I was flabbergasted and felt very bad. I realized she was wondering why I hadn't given her a gift. I had given her nice cards but that was all and had been seeing her for 2 years at that point.
It was too late to give her anything at that point so right after Christmas, during my next regular session I brought her a small gift. I can't remember exactly what I said but it was something to the effect that this was for the 14th day of Christmas (or however the song goes) It was a leather thing - sort've something to put a Palm Pilot in and had a pad and pen - but had the name of a local hospital that she admired - a place we had in common both personally and professionally. She was pleased - said she was and acted pleased. Said she would put it to good use (she didn't have a Palm but it could be used in other ways too).
As sort of an anti-climactic to the story ... I'm glad I did. She never saw another Christmas - died from a serious illness the following year. One of the memories written about her by a personal friend was that she loved to give and receive gifts.
> Hi. I understand the "rough spots" in the relationship getting old (see my post above). But I think it does (or at least can) get better, be less intense, not as long in duration, with more good times in between... overtime, anyway. It's hard to remember the bad feelings aren't forever. It helps me to think of it in terms of moving in spirals, rather than circles. You don't necessarily come back to the exact same place, even though it feels like it, if that makes any sense.
>
> As for the gift... I have given a gift. It was a souvenir from my vacation. It was not expensive, but it was meaningful and symbolic (to me, and I think to him as well). And yes, it was accepted. And I didn't have to do the whole "talking about why I gave it thing", either. It was accepted graciously and that was that. Although I do think you can learn a lot from figuring out why you want to give it. But heck, if we are lucky, of course we want to somehow give back for all that our therapists do for us. Sometimes it just is what it is. I say talk through this rough patch. The part of you that wants to give the gift is still inside you, too. Good luck. I hope you let us know how it goes.
Posted by tinydancer on August 18, 2004, at 12:55:47
In reply to Birthday gift for T? OK or no?, posted by shrinking violet on August 17, 2004, at 10:36:39
My assessment is that it is OK. It should be alright to give a mug as an expression of your gratitude.
I've been with my T for almost a year, and I have given him one gift (a fairly expensive one), which led to a discussion about gifts in general: I'm a gift giver and hate not being able to give him gifts, and when my birthday rolled around, he even admitted he'd wanted to get me a gift, but that shouldn't be what our relationship is defined by. He and I basically have established that he would rather I didn't spend my money buying any gifts for him. As such, I gave him a short letter of thanks I handwrote on his birthday, even though it was awfully hard to respect his wishes.
It makes no difference whether it is handmade or not, I don't think: the principle is in accepting a "gift" from a client and all T's have a stance on it, although I think most T's can accept "tokens". (Flowers, books, small things).
I think you should go ahead and get the mug, prefacing it with an explanation that you understand if she can't accept it, but that you would be pleased if she would!
I really think its going to go well....Keep us posted!
Posted by shrinking violet on August 18, 2004, at 19:20:27
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no?, posted by tinydancer on August 18, 2004, at 12:55:47
> My assessment is that it is OK. It should be alright to give a mug as an expression of your gratitude.
> I've been with my T for almost a year, and I have given him one gift (a fairly expensive one), which led to a discussion about gifts in general: I'm a gift giver and hate not being able to give him gifts, and when my birthday rolled around, he even admitted he'd wanted to get me a gift, but that shouldn't be what our relationship is defined by. He and I basically have established that he would rather I didn't spend my money buying any gifts for him. As such, I gave him a short letter of thanks I handwrote on his birthday, even though it was awfully hard to respect his wishes.
> It makes no difference whether it is handmade or not, I don't think: the principle is in accepting a "gift" from a client and all T's have a stance on it, although I think most T's can accept "tokens". (Flowers, books, small things).
> I think you should go ahead and get the mug, prefacing it with an explanation that you understand if she can't accept it, but that you would be pleased if she would!
> I really think its going to go well....Keep us posted!Thanks for the encouragement! :)
Now I'm wondering......last session didn't go too well (long story) and I'm on the verge of quitting (again) but I decided to first write her a long email and just let out everything I've been holding in, as I think that's part of the reason I get so defensive with her; it's rather exhausting talking around things that you are trying not to let out. In it, I was going to add a short paragraph about her birthday, and asking directly if a gift would be ok and if she'd accept it.
But, now I'm wondering if I should just go there with the mug on her birthday (assuming I'm even still her client by Sept) and tell her (as you suggested) that I have a gift, if she can accept it.
So, now I'm not sure which to do. *sigh* I so suck at making decisions.
Thanks for your reply!
-SV
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 19:12:18
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no?, posted by shrinking violet on August 18, 2004, at 19:20:27
You don't have to of course, but if you feel like sharing what happened, maybe some fresh heads can help with perspective.
I always say that my therapist and I fought our way to relationship. It sure wasn't like falling off a log. Every phase of the relationship brought its share of challenges. We spent a fair amount of our time for years hammering out compromises, learning to understand and value each other's point of view. I'm not at all sorry I did it, but sometimes I wonder who taught who more about commitment. :)
Even now, in the therapeutic equivilant of the old married couple phase, challenges come up from time to time. How much support, how much challenge. The occasional boredom. Separation and individuation. (Eeeeek! Still working on that one.)
Posted by Lonely on August 20, 2004, at 20:10:21
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 19:12:18
You've touched on something that has been in the back of my mind so I'd like to get some feedback from you and others if that's ok.
I too have fought w/T's (especially the one who died) and been bored by them - even grossed out. My current thinking is that if it feels like a hassle or if it feels like it's boring then it is. And, I look for another one if I don't feel better about the T after bringing it up (which is hard to do).
Ok, no doubt there's a much different point of view to that and I think you might have experienced it. So, what is the value of going through the hassle? In my case I can't honestly say it helped me with other relationships unless deciding finally to say 'nough and move on is the answer. After all, I'm paying for therapy.
So, when to leave and when not to leave - that is the question.
> I always say that my therapist and I fought our way to relationship. .... Every phase of the relationship brought its share of challenges. We spent a fair amount of our time for years hammering out compromises, learning to understand and value each other's point of view. I'm not at all sorry I did it, but sometimes I wonder who taught who more about commitment. :)
>
> Even now, in the therapeutic equivilant of the old married couple phase, challenges come up from time to time. How much support, how much challenge.
Posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 23:06:20
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » Dinah, posted by Lonely on August 20, 2004, at 20:10:21
Well, I've got to admit that I'm a committed person in general. Most of my friends are from school, even years later. My husband was my high school sweetie. Divorce is something that neither of us would consider (ok, we might dream about it sometimes, but not consider it).
So my bias is towards finding someone you like and then sticking out the problems - in every relationship in my life. It's a style that suits me. My somewhat cynical take is that every relationship brings arguments, areas of conflict, and boredom. It's better to work on those things with the decent person you've got than to try all over again and be disillusioned in a different way.
The difference with my therapeutic relationship is that in most my relationships we start out having a lot in common, talk endlessly, lots of intimacy, then things become less intimate. But with my therapeutic relationship, we started out not really clicking and deepening the level of intimacy and connection with each fight and every disagreement solved. A bit different for me...
So why stick it out? I've seen so many worse therapists out there than mine. Mine has many good qualities that were valuable to me. I didn't think I'd find one that was instant rapport and constant stimulation. And he stuck it out with me. He was willing to make the commitment to make the relationship work just like I was. He didn't say that I could like him or leave him. He didn't stubbornly insist that his point of view was right, and I was the nutty client who was automatically wrong. He was willing to learn something from each encounter, just like I was.
What was the point of moving on? To find what? Now... If Daisy's or Pfinstegg's therapist lived nearby, and I already knew he was great, that might be different.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 11:07:57
In reply to Re: Therapy commitment » Lonely, posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 23:06:20
Hmmm. I think I forgot to emphasize the important part, which is that the person has to be a good person, and a good-enough therapist for me. I have to see something in them that is worth committing to.
Obviously, some people are destructive, and I hope I'd never work on a relationship with a destructive person. Other people aren't good-enough matches for me to make working on a relationship worthwhile. I've summarily dismissed mental health professionals without a second thought after the first or third session if I think that's the case. Or in one case, a couple of years after I should have.
But given that I'm starting with a good-enough person, I prefer to work on the relationship.
Posted by shrinking violet on August 22, 2004, at 11:43:15
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on August 20, 2004, at 19:12:18
>> You don't have to of course, but if you feel like sharing what happened, maybe some fresh heads can help with perspective.
Thanks, I appreciate it. What happens is what's been happening since I've started seeing her and I'm not sure how to fix it. The basic explanation is that I clam up, can't verbalize, I get defensive. She interprets this as anger (toward her, and/or therapy) which often it isn't. *I* know that I get that way b/c she's either very close to touching on something that I want to avoid, or she's close to making me cry, etc, but she seems to react to the defensiveness/anger itself, and takes it personally, and then questions whether I want to be there, which is hurtful. So I leave feeling frustrated and hurt (and sometimes angry, even if I wasnt before) and I imagine she's frustrated as well. I think this time was worse because the last session went fairly well. I know it's my issue, and it's my inability to just talk to her that's causing the problems, rather than a conflict in our personalities, etc. I dont know how or why she puts up with me, honestly. I was thinking of just calling it quits (and it baffles me why I'm not, b/c I dont particularly like therapy, but I'm so screwed up right now that I feel like I need someone there who understands), but I decided to write down all the stuff I've been withholding because I've been too afraid to talk about it, and bring it on Tuesday (her suggestion, she called me later this week), but I dont know if it'll help, or if it even matters anymore.
>>> Every phase of the relationship brought its share of challenges.
I'm not sure whether this is true for me and my T...maybe to some extent, but I feel like we're still in the same phase (whatever that is). Maybe I just feel stuck. And I care about her a lot, and I feel that she really cares and wants to help, but......how do you know if your T can handle you? I sometimes wonder if I'm beyond her realm of experience, and I wonder whether she's doing more harm than good. Although then *that* makes me feel guilty b/c she is a good person, and tries to be ethical, and would be horrified to know that I even thought that about her. *sigh*
Thanks. :)
-SV
Posted by shrinking violet on August 22, 2004, at 11:51:33
In reply to Re: Birthday gift for T? OK or no? » Dinah, posted by Lonely on August 20, 2004, at 20:10:21
> You've touched on something that has been in the back of my mind so I'd like to get some feedback from you and others if that's ok.
>
So, what is the value of going through the hassle? In my case I can't honestly say it helped me with other relationships unless deciding finally to say 'nough and move on is the answer. After all, I'm paying for therapy.
>
> So, when to leave and when not to leave - that is the question.
>>>> That is a good question. I'm wondering that myself. I think if i weren't so attached to her, and dread losing her as it is (I can't see her anymore once I graduate, which will most likely be in December) so I feel like I want to stay with her for as long as I can since I don't have the luxury of stayign with her until I'm therapeutically ready. Maybe that isn't the best reason, but there it is. Also, for good or not, she's made me start to face some of my stuff, even if indirectly. My insides feel like they've been stirred up, but the feeling won't stop ( sort of like a whirlpool, maybe). I feel like if I left her now, before I'm more settled on the inside, it would be too much to live with (it is often now too much, as it is....and at least I know she's there if I really needed her). I guess I'm hoping that by the time I graduate, some of the crappy feelings I have inside will settle down a bit....but I'm really afraid they won't, so I think that fear keeps me with her also. Not to say she isnt a good T in a lot of ways, and when sessions are good they are very good, adn I know that any problems we have is because of my inability to verbalize and her frustration in regards to that. I feel like me and my sessions are hassle for her (even when she says it isnt)....I question how she could possibly care about me, or like me, when I make her job nearly impossible?
I guess I'm not the best person to answer this question... :-/
Plus, I dont pay my T directly (she's a T at the Uni where I'm a grad student and Counseling services are free to students, although I suppose I do pay her indirectly through tuition). If I were paying her, I would have been out of there a long time ago.
Are you having this problem now, or is it something that's happened before (or both)?
-SV
Posted by shrinking violet on August 22, 2004, at 11:53:14
In reply to Re: Therapy commitment, posted by Dinah on August 21, 2004, at 11:07:57
>> Hmmm. I think I forgot to emphasize the important part, which is that the person has to be a good person....
My T is definitely that.
>> Obviously, some people are destructive, and I hope I'd never work on a relationship with a destructive person.So how do you know if a T is destructive?
Posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 20:26:00
In reply to Re: Therapy commitment » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on August 22, 2004, at 11:53:14
>
> >> Obviously, some people are destructive, and I hope I'd never work on a relationship with a destructive person.
>
> So how do you know if a T is destructive?Hmmm... Tough one.
My therapist says I have an uncanny knack for picking people and situations that are over-all good for me. And I'd say that is true. So I have a fair amount of faith in my intuition - especially face to face where I can *read* the moods better. He used to think it was schizotypal of me to think I had that ability, but when time after time after time I accurately assessed his emotion (if not the cause), he quit saying that. He also started being really honest. lol.
So, I suppose if experience has shown that you can accurately separate those people who are good for you from those who aren't, following your intuition (perhaps with some input from others) is probably the way to go.
But if experience has shown you that you (global you here, not specific) can't accurately separate those who are good for you from those who are destructive I just don't know.
From time to time I think periodic third party supervision would be in order. Sort of a peer review system. Every xxx (year for long term therapy clients? three months for short?), a trained supervisor would assess the situation.
But then I say NO WAY would I invite someone else into my therapy room.
I suppose I do feel reassured when I happen across positive feedback from other professionals about my therapeutic relationship, though. Most of us have pdocs as well as therapists. Maybe they could take on some supervisory responsibility.
Although I would still say NO WAY am I inviting my blank slate pdoc into my therapy situation.
Posted by Lonely on August 23, 2004, at 20:53:53
In reply to Re: Therapy commitment » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on August 23, 2004, at 20:26:00
You've mentioned something else that has bothored me a lot about "therapy." Really, I appreciate reading these things because they're sort've heling me to formulate what I like and don't like and hopefully that will help me in the future.
One of my greatest irritations is to tell a T something no matter how minor or major and have them act patronizing or condescending ... and that's quite often.
For example, the therapist who died was having some trouble getting paid by the insurance. I told her I would (after going through channels) write to the Attorney General complaining of fraud and deceit on the part of the insurance company. I later found out she didn't believe that I would do it and of course she really made a nasty out of herself and that hampered our relationship. Later she also told me that people often say they're going to do something and then don't. She was amazed that I did - more than once!
Another time, (maybe this has some humor) ... after the "T" died, I saw another therapist and while we were facing each other talking I noticed a little spider on the back of her chair on her left, not far from her head. I didn't want to blurt out that there was a spider right by her head because I didn't want to frighten her so I tried to act very soothing, leaned forward in the chair, and prefaced it by saying everything was alright except ... there was just this tiny little spider on her chair and I pointed to it. Before it sank into her head that there was a spider beside her she had the very condescending body language and attitude of a T who thinks their patient is psycho (and I suppose seeing a spider might be interpreted that way although they're very common in this climate). (by-the-way, I'm not psycho.) Suddenly, though, she lept up, trying to keep her cool, got a tissue and with some revulsion got the spider and threw the tissue away. Then she tried to return to the T "stance" - the ol' control thing.
>So I have a fair amount of faith in my >intuition - especially face to face where I can >*read* the moods better. He used to think it was >schizotypal of me to think I had that ability, >but when time after time after time I accurately >assessed his emotion (if not the cause), he quit >saying that. He also started being really >honest. lol.
This is the end of the thread.
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