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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by AuntieMel on July 30, 2004, at 17:12:05
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Awwwww, I didn't mean to make you cry.
My dad (in the biological sense) made liberal use of a belt as discipline - for just about anything. I learned not to cry, because the crying gave him some kind of perverse pleasure. As I grew up it became one of my main defenses. That and the permanent happy face.
It is NOT manipulative to test. It's a valuable, learned, survival instinct. In fact, I have problems with people that pour their hearts out to anyone that will listen. Or at least I don't believe that they are really *problems*.
Have you sent hem (email) any of the stuff off of wingofmadness.com? I couldn't for the life of me explain what depression *felt* like, but there is a page that describes it perfectly. I sent it to hubby and it made a difference. He get's it now.
I sent him http://www.wingofmadness.com/articles/whatis.htm and, even better http://www.wingofmadness.com/blog/feel/index.php There are others that also explain what it feels like.Remember - men are fixers. If something is broken they want to make it better.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:07:41
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
What you say here, ....-
"and herein lies the problem. we have been married for almost 7 years now. i trusted him completely up until the year after we were married. When i found out about who his true other partner was...(his mother). he tells her everything. Yes i love her dearly she is a wonderful woman. But anything i've ever told him goes straight to her. Believe me, i ache to trust him again and i "test the waters" every year, and each time i find out it's gone. he tells, he always tells.
and yes i feel HORRIBLE, i feel like a sneaky manipulative person for "testing" the way i do but i have to. and each time i'm proven right. There will never be anything that i tell him that she won't know."I've been here too. It feels like a huge betrayal (and I think it is: it showed me my husband was a *weak, weak man*.)
Thanks for listening and sharing.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:11:14
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Referring to "hugs" from your husband ....
when i don't however i get them.Yup. Been there too. I moved out and it was the best thing I ever did for myself.
Posted by Susan47 on July 30, 2004, at 18:15:03
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » AuntieMel, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:16:33
Last time, B2chica, I promise ...
"i hated bringing this topic up here cuz i love my husband intensly and i didn't want alot of people calling on his faults. yes he lived a VERY sheltered life and knows NOTHING of the bad things in life. he is the youngest of his siblings and he can be childish and yes he doesn't respect my wishes, but mostly cuz he's stubborn, he doesn't intentionally hurt me. But he does love me, i know that. without a doubt."My soon-to-be-ex-husband still loves me too. And I love him in many, many ways. We have two beautiful children together. And it was the worst thing I could do to leave him, but since I have, *he's seeing things about himself he's never seen before*.
If he and I never have another chance (and I don't believe we do), he now has a better chance with someone else... and so do I.
Thanks for reading.
Posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 18:46:30
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
It is apparent that you've thought a lot about this issue and have great insight into what is really going on. It isn't that your journal is secret or private, it is that your husband feels left out. He may even be afraid that you are writing about him, and wants to know if he is making you worse. So, in the name of peace, maybe you shouldn't write in it when he is home, or awake. I think you said it yourself, he is frustrated to not be able to help you. Some people are just snoops.
It doesn't matter how many times people tell me that honest communication is the best way to handle some of these kinds of issues. After explaining over and over again that most of my husband's behaviors and needs are medication/illness driven, I've given up. It isn't that I am unaware that he can be selfish and self-involved WITHOUT these other things, but adding them in makes the whole situation impossible. I'm a pro at avoiding most of the fight triggers anymore.
Even my Therapist has stopped encouraging "talking it out." He agrees that most likely anything I tell him won't remain private and it will only result in a fight where I am made to feel even worse about feeling depressed. I have described us as drowning side-by-side in separate pools. Each with his/her own pain. I am unable and unwilling to share mine with him for fear of burdening an already overburdened person. Wishing that he was handling things with more grace and humor won't change that he isn't.
You can't change who your husband is or his relationship with his mom. But I think you might have a support in his mom that if you can find the courage to step toward, might really help you with the loneliness of keeping it all inside. Because you could then loop it back to include your husband. You say she is a wonderful person, is she trustworthy? Can she keep a secret? If so, maybe YOU talking to her first, might really help you.
You shouldn't have to defend your need for privacy. But ultimately, having the privacy is more important than him understanding why you need the privacy. I wish you could have both.
I know it is hard and you feel so alone. But you aren't. We are here for you, at least in cyberspace.
Hugs from me.
Posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 23:12:06
In reply to Re: Have you ever heard of Temple Grandin? » Racer, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:41:36
Gotcha -- at least, as much as anyone can ever understand what's going on for someone else, I think I understand what you mean.
For what it's worth, it would have been easier to pull my husband's molars our with my bare hands than getting him to counseling was. The real incentive was that I collapsed into depression -- didn't get off the sofa for about four days straight, hardly ate, cried, couldn't talk -- but even that wasn't really enough to get us into counseling, it was just a wake up call that something had to happen. (Remember: I can't really remember much about this period. I was too far gone.) I think I probably just refused even to consider talking to him at all unless he went, but whatever it was, this much I remember: I told him that I couldn't communicate with him, and I needed someone to help me talk to him. That worked. (I think largely because I didn't say that it was a "we can't communicate" but "I can't communicate")
Once we were in therapy together, I said a few times that I thought it would help him to be in therapy alone, too. I told him that I could see the toll that my condition was taking on him, and that I was afraid he didn't have any support for himself. Obviously, my husband is a wonderful man, and willing to take a chance on these things, but he was resistant to the idea for a while before finally deciding that it really was a good idea. Again, I suggested it for very real reasons: I really could (and can) see the toll this is taking on him, and he really does need the support.
I think the biggest element in successfully getting my husband to both marriage counseling and individual therapy is that he's a really wonderful man -- I'll say right now that he's got more to do with our progress than I have -- but the second most important part is that it wasn't presented to him as something he was doing wrong. Now, truth be told, he did and does contribute to our problems -- if one wanted to assign blame, it's probably equal. But -- especially with the individual counseling -- having it presented to him as "support" and not "psychotherapy" really made a difference with him.
(And you might be careful about asking him to go to your therapist with you -- it might make him feel as if he's going to be ganged up on. Asking him to see a "marriage coach" sort of person might be easier on him.)
I hope some of that helps.
As for me, grueling, but it left me feeling as if I can get through my upcoming Scary Event -- even though she's gonna be gone next week for a family emergency! Talk about timing... Grueling but good.
Posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 31, 2004, at 2:00:48
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
B2,
This isn't a do or die situation. One can let someone know they were abused, but not the details. The details are yours. You are still the same person that he fell in love with. If your found out your husband was abused as a child, would love him less? Would you feel differently about a good friend if you found out they were abused as a child?
Sometimes, we do need to be alone. Other times we do need others. If it's habitual to push others away, it actually perpetrating ourselves to be alone in pain all over again. You don't have to do that today. That hurting child inside can have support today. She can cry in the arms of a man that cares and have a kind ear listen to her pain. She isn't alone.
Shadowplayers - say you are just scared and hurting. It's okay, B2, to come out of hiding and give a voice to that internal scream. We will not hurt you. We are your friend in healing.
Posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 10:08:54
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 18:46:30
Daisy, you've somehow captured the essence of how I feel about my marriage. My husband's a good man, and we have a good marriage. But my therapist, too, has given up on suggesting the deep heart-to-heart discussions and concentrates more on pragmatic solutions to problems. Some people just aren't introspective, and you can't force them to be. I think I may be growing to consider it a character trait rather than a flaw. I can even see where it serves him well in many situations, as he doesn't agonize over things the way I do. Yet, it means that the techniques that my therapist tries to teach me about communication don't work too well with my husband or parents. The best I can do is understand *them* and work with that understanding.
Do you find that "acting as-if" works especially well with people who aren't particularly introspective? I've found that trying to confront problems is completely useless, but acting "as-if" everything was ok often leads to a better situation overall?
Posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 10:37:52
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » JenStar, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:48:32
Sorry I added my *stuff* to your thread.
Posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:31:47
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go? » daisym, posted by Dinah on July 31, 2004, at 10:08:54
That is a great way to explain it: "acting as-if".
This is so very hard for most people to understand even though I observe that they do it a lot. Only they call it "respecting another's mood." LOL. No kidding.
I think most little spats do not have to be talked out. They just blow over, if you let them. And I think you make choices about whether the larger things that bother you can be changed. As you said, if someone isn't introspective, they aren't apt to become so because we wish it.
I don't want my children living in a battle ground. And it would be if I called my hubby on every thing he does that I think is hurtful or selfish. And I'm sure he could make his own list. And then there is the whole illness thing. I know what's coming. So does he. We try to not let our anxiety over that feed fights either. We go through long periods of quiet and then we will struggle and flare at each other for a while. And then it dies down again. I know this now. I've made a choice to stay in it, support him through it as best I can, hide from it when I need to and protect my children from most of it.
Most people think I'm either stupid, don't care enough about my own needs, or have some kind of a Martyr complex. It may be a little of all of these things but I also think this is the place I can apply the new thing my therapist is harping on: "good enough." It's also a better or worse thing for me -- I promised.
And honestly, I'm a private enough person that I don't want to share all that is going on with my feelings, my therapy and in my head, even with my own husband. I will feel intruded on. I need lots of personal space. So it definitely isn't just him.
But it is so hard for people who believe in totally honest communication to look at this and even begin to understand any of it. These are the people I try to remember to avoid saying anything bad about my husband to. Because then I end up defending him and/or my own choices of handling things. And I really hate that.
Posted by antigua on July 31, 2004, at 14:39:14
In reply to (((((((B2chica))))))), posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 10:37:52
Boy, can I relate to everything everyone wrote. Marriage is difficult as it is, and to add our problems on top of it make it, shall I say, a "unique" challenge.
My husband and I have been married more than 20 years and I've known him since I was 14 years old. He fell in love w/me first and he had to convince me that I was worth it. He is filled with hope and optimism (too much sometimes) for all the things I could accomplish IF I could just get over this.
He has been with me every step of the way, from when I first began to feel something was wrong, up until today as I struggle through difficult memories. He certainly hasn't understood it all. He has tried hard, but a lot of it is that I have had such a difficult time sharing it with him. The abuse has affected every part of our marriage--from difficulties with sexual intimacy to raising our children. He has always been there, which I certainly appreciate, but he hasn't understood very much unless I share it w/him.
I find it very difficult to share w/him. It makes him go ballastic toward my father (who is dead). My T says he carries the anger for me because I can't acknowledge it myself (for now anyway). But what happens is he makes me defensive toward my father where I feel like I have to defend him. He just gets blindingly angry at how this has affected our live.
Also, sharing w/him upsets him. I've found that balance that so many of you have in deciding what to share with him. I do this, primarily, because he just can't handle it. Period. He cannot handle it. I think it has something to do with his own male sexuality, but I'll take that on with him when I'm stronger. So if I share, especially when I'm upset, he gets upset because he can't fix it. He's big on control and this is a situation he cannot control.
That said, I've found that the more I can share with him, the better our relationship. He doesn't like being closed out and while I think I'm protecting him, he sees it as rejection.
I really don't worry very much about sharing with him so much anymore. I'm focused on me and I tell him he has to learn to handle it, because oftentimes he is just making things worse for me. He usually will listen and be compassionate. Later, he will blow up at one of the kids or come after me about something else (money for example). I see the direct connection, and I'm trying to help him see how this behavior affects me. If he's going to start an argument, why on earth would I confide in him? To his credit, he's getting it more now. Our relationship (and the sexual intimacy) is better than it's ever been, and I've known this guy for most of my life.
He's a good man and I appreciate his willingness to stick w/me, but--and listen up you guys--I am worth it. I am a very good person (as each and every one of you are) and I deserve, finally, to have a full life. I told my husband earlier this year, and I truly meant it, "This is me. Love me or leave me. Quit trying to change me. I'm tired of feeling like I'm a dissapointment to you and I no longer will feel inadequate." While I certainly wouldn't want him to leave me (those huge abandonment issues popping up) I know that I would survive. Things have been much better ever since. Not that we don't struggle w/it, but being able to use him to help me on my terms has lessened my load considerably.
thanks for listening through my tirade,
antigua
Posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 14:51:07
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads... » JenStar, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 16:48:32
I wish I was a star, too. I often feel like a boring rock! :) Putting the 'star' in my name helps me feel more special, even though it's just a name.
Anyway, I hope you're doing well.
Have a great weekend!jenstar
Posted by 64bowtie on July 31, 2004, at 16:48:39
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads..., posted by JenStar on July 31, 2004, at 14:51:07
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:09:49
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by daisym on July 30, 2004, at 18:46:30
>>So, in the name of peace, maybe you shouldn't write in it when he is home, or awake. I think you said it yourself, he is frustrated to not be able to help you. Some people are just snoops.
i agree. and i usually try when i know he's not around or out working on projects but usually he suprises me by coming in (i don't hear him) that's why i quickly shut the journal and he gets upset.
>>It doesn't matter how many times people tell me that honest communication is the best way to handle some of these kinds of issues. After explaining over and over again that most of my husband's behaviors and needs are medication/illness driven, I've given up. It isn't that I am unaware that he can be selfish and self-involved WITHOUT these other things, but adding them in makes the whole situation impossible. I'm a pro at avoiding most of the fight triggers anymore.YES, i agree 100%. i do my best to just do what i can to avoid these "happenings" cuz i know they really are triggers for me to head down hill (as you could tell by my hopeless feelings in my original post)
>>He agrees that most likely anything I tell him won't remain private and it will only result in a fight where I am made to feel even worse about feeling depressed.EXACTLY!
>>I am unable and unwilling to share mine with him for fear of burdening an already overburdened person.
YES, and also someone who as much as you try doesn't understand the kind of pain i feel.
>>But I think you might have a support in his mom that if you can find the courage to step toward, might really help you with the loneliness of keeping it all inside. Because you could then loop it back to include your husband. You say she is a wonderful person, is she trustworthy? Can she keep a secret? If so, maybe YOU talking to her first, might really help you.you know i've thought this so many times. Yes she is trustworth, she really can keep a secret. but...just not yet.
> You shouldn't have to defend your need for privacy. But ultimately, having the privacy is more important than him understanding why you need the privacy. I wish you could have both.
Thank you. I think i really needed to hear this. REALLY REALLY needed to hear this. i think it(he) makes me feel like i'm less of a wife if i don't.
>>But you aren't. We are here for you, at least in cyberspace.and i truly don't ever know what i'd do without you all.
thank you DaisyM
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:14:12
In reply to Here's what worked for us: » B2chica, posted by Racer on July 30, 2004, at 23:12:06
(((Racer)))
thank you so much for your input. and congrats for the both of you, making that kind of effort.i agree with what it might take to have that happen.
before i was in the hopital, i felt myself going down constantly and i would ask for help, i did most of the cleaning, cooking and all the financial work and it was becoming SO overwhelming but he just didn't. i knew for years it would take my being gone (unreachable) for weeks before he would take on that responsibility...well, i wound up in the hospital for weeks and that's exactly what it took. Now i still take care of the financial (but i like it that way) but he cooks, takes care of laundry and helps with dishes. Sometimes i think that was the best thing that ever happened to our marriage.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:17:04
In reply to Re: Bridge to support, posted by Shadowplayers721 on July 31, 2004, at 2:00:48
><It's okay, B2, to come out of hiding and give a voice to that internal scream. We will not hurt you. We are your friend in healing.
i think these are the most beautiful words i have ever heard.
i don't even think i can thank you for what you've said...it just doesn't even seem to do it justice.
-but i'll say it anyway.
Thank You Shadows.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:19:30
In reply to (((((((B2chica))))))), posted by Susan47 on July 31, 2004, at 10:37:52
> Sorry I added my *stuff* to your thread.
Sweetheart Don't you Dare apologize! don't you know that's what these threads are all about! infact it is threads like this that help me more than anything. You sharing help me to not feel alone, and maybe even to learn a little :^)
please, please don't apologize.b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:22:45
In reply to Marriage and Communication » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on July 31, 2004, at 12:31:47
i can't believe it.
What you said x2 DaisyM. this is exactly how i feel about it all.
Thank You.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:35:35
In reply to if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by B2chica on July 30, 2004, at 14:18:30
Wow, i just can't thank you all enough. What wonderful and insightful responses. You know i thought the hardest part about bipolar was the extreme ups and downs, but i've been noticing lately i have a lot of weak hills (ups and downs) that are really beginning to make me sea-sick. This was one of them set off (triggered) by my husband. When i originally wrote this, it was the night before when it happened and that morning my husband was *not talking to me* and it threw me for a down hill. i felt completely helpless and literally trapped. I felt i only had two choices. black or white. it was So incredibly scary for me...and you all were right there.
My God what incredible people you all are.now that a few days have past things are much better and i don't feel that i only have two choices, but it was your input that helped remind me of this.
But i feel bad, sometimes i feel like such a drama queen. i didn't mean for it to play out that way. and i'm sorry if anyone was put off by that post, but i was truly feeling trapped when i wrote it.i have since talked with my husbad and things are ok...at least for now.
he's not exactly a talker and i'm not always good at expressing myself but as my T would say, at least i said what i needed to- he can interpret as he will but i've said what was important. that i need my privacy and i'm not doing it to push him away and the best way he can help me through this is to accept and respect that. And i made it clear (i hope) that i am not "all better". that i am still fighting this... and i will everyday for the rest of my life. but that having the love, support and understanding from him will be the best way he can help me do this.
i think it got through.I just can't thank all of you enough. You truly are the best!
Much LOVE AND THANKS.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:39:19
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads to slaughter do you still go?, posted by partlycloudy on July 30, 2004, at 14:45:55
(((partlycloudy)))
i hope you don't mind but i printed off what you said in your reply and i used this to start off the converstation with my husband. It was perfect! very well said and not placing blame on any party.
THANK YOU.
b2c.
Posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:56:05
In reply to » (((B2c))) and » (((Jenstar))) (nm), posted by 64bowtie on July 31, 2004, at 16:48:39
You always give me hugs just when i need'em.
-sometimes there are no words to help only hugs...
b2c.
Posted by Susan47 on August 1, 2004, at 20:06:57
In reply to Re: (((((((Susan47))))))), posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:19:30
Thank you so much, I needed to hear that it was okay to share my stuff too. I'm really glad if it helps.
Posted by Susan47 on August 1, 2004, at 20:12:59
In reply to update on drama queen..., posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:35:35
I'm so glad you're feeling better. We're here for you. And I know that everyone else is here for me, too, if I need it.
This board has been a real help to me. I don't know if I'd be feeling sane without this board. I've been through too much lately, and it's been *huge* for me to be able to come here when I'm feeling bad. I'd like to add my thanks to everyone who's helped support me, too.
Thanks guys. You really are wonderful.
Posted by 64bowtie on August 1, 2004, at 21:19:52
In reply to Thanks Mr.Bowtie ;^), posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:56:05
Posted by partlycloudy on August 2, 2004, at 9:39:17
In reply to Re: if the bridge leads » partlycloudy, posted by B2chica on August 1, 2004, at 16:39:19
And happy things are going better. Drama queens need only apply here - I sometimes feel like I'm waiting for direction... exit stage left.
My little roller coaster went off the track this weekend. Oh how I hate to think I know what I'm doing, only to lose it all in a day.
((((B2chica)))) love to read your posts.
This is the end of the thread.
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