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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 6:48:23
In reply to Re: Daisy? How is it going? » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 20, 2004, at 23:59:31
Oh, Daisy. :( Don't worry about being negative here.
When is your next therapy appointment? I think you could use some extra support.
(((Daisy)))
Posted by fallsfall on January 21, 2004, at 10:55:16
In reply to Re: Daisy? How is it going? » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 6:48:23
You said: In the end, I was in tears and he asked what was happening and I said I felt like I was sinking because I felt like my thoughts about being basically emotionally flawed had been confirmed.
I can identify with this feeling - the flawed business. But I really believe for me (and I would think it would be true for you, too) that I came into this world as a whole person - with the capability of growing into a person who had all the right emotional stuff. My family couldn't teach me the right things when I was little. I'm sure that I wasn't the easiest person to teach, but they really didn't do a very good job. I DO believe, however, that I still have the inate ability to learn how to be emotionally human. I think that it is HARDER to learn this at age 46, but I think that it is possible. That is why I'm in therapy. Because I want to learn to be human. I believe that it is possible for me to learn to be human - that belief is my HOPE.
You have been so caring and thoughtful on this board. You, too, have the inate ability to be human. And you want to be human. Your "emotional flaws" (and mine) are not hopeless. They are also not as devistating as we feel they are - if they were we would have no relationships and would have done no good in our lives (clearly this is not the case for either of us) Please see that you aren't to "blame" for those flaws, but also that they don't have to be forever flaws. Your SOUL is impeccable. It's time to find a way for that soul to shine through.
(((((Daisy)))))
Email me at babble fallsfall at hotmail.com if you would like.
Posted by Karen_kay on January 21, 2004, at 13:11:46
In reply to Re: Daisy? How is it going?, posted by fallsfall on January 21, 2004, at 10:55:16
Daisy
Things do get better. I promise. I know it's hard right now, but things will get better again. I know it hurts to feel that you are emotionally flawed in some way. But you aren't. I wish there was some way that I could make you see just how wonderful you are.
If you are still feeling down, why don't you call your therapist. I know that's a big step for you, but I think it would be an important one for you to make. And talk about how much the last session hurt. It could really lead to some bigger things...Just think about it.
Posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 18:59:52
In reply to Re: Daisy? How is it going?, posted by Karen_kay on January 21, 2004, at 13:11:46
I wrote a post this afternoon but it seems to have disappeared into cyber space so I am going to try again. Please accept my apology if that one suddenly pops up with duplicate thoughts. (Though I'm sure that one was better...)
I understand what you are all trying to say but...BUT.
All this pain is about figuring out that I'm not strong -- in fact, I'm a coward at my core. On the outside I'm organized, smart, capable of multi-tasking and decision making. On the inside, I hate confrontations and go to great lengths to avoid them with the people that matter to me. I let people treat me badly, for years and years, to avoid doing anything about it. I've believed for a long time that I was great for "putting up with them." The truth is they have been putting up with me.
I hold everyone at arm's length, keeping that emotional distance. How frustrating this must be - to never really feel like you can reach the other person. I talk about being lonely yet being vulnerable to someone, including my husband, is too hard, too scary. I'm so much better at solving other people's problems, at fighting their battles.
I've decided what I need to work on is acceptance
of these flaws...and of the loneliness. Don't tell me I'm being too hard on myself. The evidence of this pattern is pretty overwhelming. I don't see hope of suddenly finding courage.It is painful to acknowledge that the strength that so many people admire is just a sham. I'm not who I thought I was, who I want to be. Yes, I could feel this way because I live day-to-day with so much sickness and anger (his, not mine), or because I had a traumatic childhood or even that genetically it is my real character. It doesn't change what "is". So I long for intimacy but I won't risk emotionally to get it.
It was easier not realizing all this. Not knowing what I wanted/needed. I'm trying to accept the loneliness and stuff the rest back in the box.
I'll get my self together soon and be OK. Really. Thank you all for your support. I appreciate it more than you know.
-D
Posted by fallsfall on January 21, 2004, at 19:57:21
In reply to I'll be OK, posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 18:59:52
Posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2004, at 20:01:21
In reply to I'll be OK, posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 18:59:52
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 21:47:01
In reply to from me too, ((((Daisy)))) (nm), posted by gardenergirl on January 21, 2004, at 20:01:21
I'm worried about you. (Even if you'd rather I didn't.)
Posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 23:00:14
In reply to Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment?, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 21:47:01
I went in today. We didn't get very far. I told him I felt like a lifelong fraud and just felt hopeless and I didn't know what to do about it.
He said that he thought I wasn't giving myself enough credit -- that I was strong. That I was functioning really well in some realms (work) instead of letting all of this completely overwhelm me. He said I just had to trust him. He had enough hope for both of us. And he insisted on sharing it.
At least he made me smile.
And he insisted I come back tomorrow. I think I'm scaring him.
Posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 23:07:33
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment?, posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 23:00:14
I'm glad you're going back tomorrow. Thank him for me, will you, for insisting. And you should congratulate yourself on your strength for agreeing. I know how hard it was for you to let yourself need help.
Posted by fallsfall on January 22, 2004, at 9:50:55
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment?, posted by DaisyM on January 21, 2004, at 23:00:14
I'm glad you are going back tomorrow, too.
He sounds really caring - he'll help you through.
We would be happy to help take care of you, you know? I don't often let people take care of me, but you did recently, and it really helped and it made me feel better. We're here.
(((((((Daisy)))))))
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 11:12:07
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment? » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 22, 2004, at 9:50:55
It is hard for me to reach out, I'm always sure that I'm imposing. It is easier here because we rotate the support. I'm struggling with letting my Therapist "take care of me" because I know in the end it is up to me. But right now I have to let him lead. He told me that sometimes when we begin to recognize truths about ourselves it is incredibly painful. Not that he is confirming that I've hit upon a truth. So I should look at this as "normal" (Ha!)...I told him that for him to have to hold all the hope feels like a huge thing to ask of someone, paid or not. He countered with it is alot to ask of someone to accept that you can hold their hope. So I have to just trust him. I'm really trying. But I don't think he has the cure for all this pain. And I wanted so badly for him to have it.
You said in a previous post: Because I want to learn to be human. I believe that it is possible for me to learn to be human - that belief is my HOPE.
You are so much more than "Human". Being Human just the basic hunter/gatherer groupings. You are HUMANE...you reach out with your spirit to touch mine and the others here. I think you are looking to go beyond here with that ability...connecting to people in a way that helps you and them. You certainly do it for me here.
And as far as control goes...right now I'm glad I've had so much practice at control. My therapist commented yesterday on how split my life is: dual characters playing completely different parts. One is keeping it together: mother, boss, etc. The other is suffering quietly: the lost little girl and the woman looking for...I don't really know what...happiness? It takes so much energy to keep up the one role yet without it I know I'd be even more a mess. My Therapist agreed, and at least didn't tell me to "reduce my stress" (I hate that!)But, he wants me to see him more. And that feels really dangerous. I don't need a transference mess right now, especially after reading so much here about them. Though he would probably turn cartwheels if I developed that kind of attachment/trust. :)
I said it before, I really, really appreciate the support. I can feel myself beginning to pull back up from the black places. Thanks for the rope.
-D
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 11:16:24
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment? » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 21, 2004, at 23:07:33
Dinah,
Thank you for all the encouragement. I've been reading and I know your not having a picnic right now either -- I'm sorry I haven't been there for you.I'm trying to pull out of this. Writing is usually what helps me. I just couldn't find those words the past few days. They seem to have come back this morning. And the sun is out.
So maybe I don't need the appointment today???
I hope you are doing OK.
-D
Posted by Speaker on January 22, 2004, at 15:36:52
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment? » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 11:16:24
Daisy,
I have been gone for awhile but I just caught up on the posts. I'm glad you are going today! Its ok to go even when the sun is shining...sometimes that adds light into those dark days (how profound -yuck :). After living with a terminal husband for many years I know there are two sides of life. However, that doesn't make us frauds, it just makes us people that wear more hats. It would be inappropriate to be the "needy" one at work, we have to be strong and competent. I learned its ok to allow our emotional mess to come out at different times...like at the therapists office. I wish I would have gone to a T. during that time, instead I am going now!
Posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 18:39:33
In reply to We can go even when we feel good :)., posted by Speaker on January 22, 2004, at 15:36:52
I forget sometimes that you've been where I am...I'm glad I can call on your perspective and experience. I wish you had had support at that time too. :(
I called to tell my Therapist that I was feeling somewhat better today but he really (REALLY) wanted me to come in anyway. (As in, "I'm not taking No for an answer!" -- pushy, isn't he?!) So I went. We had a good conversation about all of this...why I'm feeling so hopeless and how hard it is to be dealing with a sucky present and painful past at the same time. And how awful I felt to be dragging myself in to him in this weepy, whiney state time after time.
He does what he always does. He gently reframed, he told me he would share not only his hope but his strength. He gave me permission to shut it off, to stop for awhile.
The conversation did take an unexpected turn (see new post). But in the end he reminded me that I could call him anytime, over the weekend or during an evening, even if he had seen me that day. Even with extra sessions. He made me feel better.
Posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 7:48:28
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment? » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 22, 2004, at 11:12:07
I'm still here at my end of the rope pulling up as hard as I can. I have to say, though, that my efforts are a bit selfish on my part - I'm really looking forward to the hug when you get to the top.
You are doing very hard work. You are doing it well. I'm so glad you have a good therapist to accompany you on the journey, and to hold the parts that are too heavy for you on the way.
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 13:59:47
In reply to Re: Daisy, sweet, when is your next appointment? » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 7:48:28
Tell me this is worth it...sometimes I wonder. Late last night I began to think that I should stop and figure out how to go back in time, where there was this vague unhappiness and nagging thoughts of you'll never make it through...but not this overwhelming pain.
At the beginning, I would complain about all these "ghosts", feelings of sadness that would just show up with no real reason. But they could be contained, or ignored. I remember my Therapist saying, "just try to sit with your feelings, tolerate them." Now that seems easy...
He tells me that just because we've "named" the issues or disturbances doesn't make them magically better. Curitive identification and "ah-ha" moments are mostly for TV movies.
I know part of what I'm doing is mourning, for who I was, for dreams I'm letting go of. And I know it takes time. But does it have to take THIS much time?!
I need wise words and more chocolate.
Posted by antigua on January 23, 2004, at 19:15:21
In reply to Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 13:59:47
Hi Daisy,
I'm sorry you have to go through this. I understand what you mean about having to mourn. For me, it's not only giving up this "ideal world" I made up to inhabit when I was a young girl, but I mourn all the "what-ifs" of my life, of all the missed potentials and opportunities because I was (and am) hurting or unable to help myself, or simply didn't know any better because I had no strong role models. Sometimes I feel like the movie "On the Waterfront," when Marlon Brando says, "I could have been a contender." I could have been one too, and while it's not too late to achieve some dreams, most of them I have to accept they will never be--so I mourn the loss.I also mourn the loss of my innocence, and that's one I don't think I will ever get over.
Good luck Daisy, I'm sending warm thoughts your way.
antigua
Posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 20:19:57
In reply to Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 13:59:47
Don't worry. You don't get rid of me that easily.
I think maybe we have the same therapist, and he's trying to make it so he doesn't have to work so hard by making sure that our issues track really closely. I'll report on my session in a separate thread. You and I can try to figure out how to tolerate "a long time" together.
I wish I had wonderfully optimistic words for you. But I do have chocolate - come on over! We can drown our sorrows together in chocolate.
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 21:37:09
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 20:19:57
I joke sometimes but I am using you guys as one way cope with all of this. It helps to know I'm not alone. Minute by minute by minute...
*sad smile*
Posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 9:42:56
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - Please., posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 21:37:09
Daisy,
I'm so sorry you are feeling so low. This is really tough, working through all of the pain. And sometimes it feels really slow and you wonder if it's worth it. It's all about stages. I think you have to mourn some before you can move on. Otherwise, you're trying to move forward while carrying an extra burden. Can you imagine as you sit with these feelings that you are slowly letting go of that burden?It will get better. I have faith in you. My own recent experience in therapy is that I have noticed I started behaving differently and less self-defeating, even though my T and I never talk about behavior. Somehow, dealing with the pain and gaining some insight, letting go of hurts, has freed me to do what I guess I've always known I need to do. It almost feels magical in that it just started happening. I believe you will get there too!
In the meantime, please take extra care of yourself, in whatever way you know helps...chocolate, hot baths, meaningful music, take a walk outside...
And know that we are here to listen and care,
gg
Posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 12:29:15
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » DaisyM, posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 9:42:56
Thanks. And good for you for making changes! It is helpful to know someone is making progess. I'm glad it is your turn.
I'm struggling to not keep posting "down" or "needy" diatrides. But I don't want to shut off all together. Writing helps me and it went away for awhile this week. I don't want that to happen again. I'm not very good at self-care...I hate baths! :)
So, I'm reorganizing my room today. All that dust should keep me busy!
Posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2004, at 12:53:18
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » gardenergirl, posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 12:29:15
Hey, I have plenty of dust at my house...
I'm glad that you see Babble as a support. And I understand about not wanting to post super-negative posts. But, at the same time, when things are really bad, that's when you need support the most. Babble is a significant element in my support structure.
I find that writing helps me when I am down, but really only if someone is going to read the writing. Just writing to myself doesn't seem to do it for me. My old therapist read all of my journalling, but my new therapist doesn't want it. So I've needed to find other people who could read what I find that I need to say. Sometimes a post here does it for me, but there are times when I need to say more than seems appropriate in this forum.
You are definately not alone.
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 24, 2004, at 15:54:19
In reply to Don't Let Go Yet - Please. » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 13:59:47
Hello Daisy (and everyone)
I've been reading this board for a few weeks now, so first a big thank-you. Just to briefly explain, I was in therapy for about 5 years, finishing about 3 years ago. The experience changed me radically and was the best thing I ever did for myself, but there some things that were not so good about it. What's helped me most with those has been reading "In session" and reading the posts on this board, so again thanks everyone. (Dear Mr Fallsfalls Therapist was just one of the several posts that really struck a chord.)
You said you wanted wise words, Daisy. Haven't got those, but can only offer this.
> At the beginning, I would complain about all these "ghosts", feelings of sadness that would just show up with no real reason. But they could be contained, or ignored. I remember my Therapist saying, "just try to sit with your feelings, tolerate them." Now that seems easy...
Yeah, does it feel like you're in the middle of major surgery and suddenly someone's taken away the anaesthetic? The pain and sorrow is just grotesque, and you think for goodness' sake it can't be meant to be as bad as this? Or as unremitting.
Let me tell you that it will pass, and even the memory of how bad it is will fade.
What you described in your Admitting thoughts posts is also so similar to how I felt at that worst point of therapy. It sounds as though your therapist is really good and supportive.> I know part of what I'm doing is mourning, for who I was, for dreams I'm letting go of. And I know it takes time. But does it have to take THIS much time?!
One thing I did used to tell myself at that time was that I HAD to start feeling better at some point because human beings just don't stay at such extremes of emotion. I don't know whether that idea might help you to get through?
I hope you start to feel better soon. Sending you warm thoughts.
(PS I'm posting from the UK. This means that even at the horrible 3.a.m. low point, if you have those, someone's awake and thinking of you. Isn't the net wonderful!)
Posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 17:49:32
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - Please. (long) » DaisyM, posted by Crooked Heart on January 24, 2004, at 15:54:19
Wow. At 3am I will try to remember that. It is too bad sometimes we can't talk in real time. On the other hand, I'm on this machine enough!
Your words were wise and I will draw comfort from them. The part about IT MUST GET BETTER AT SOME POINT is dead on. I think I've said that about a million times.
But it took you 5 years? hmmm. Did you find that you started for one reason and ended up in a quagmire of many different ones? I know essentially everything is linked and I guess I'm glad I'm trying to figure it all out now, but it is pretty hard.
A word about my Therapist: (OK, a couple of words). I didn't know specifically what I was looking for when I started, because I came into this as a parent needing support for a child who had anxiety. I had a referral from a professional plus a couple from friends. But it never occured to me to check philosophical differences, or orientations. I just didn't want someone who was too touchy/feely or who would tell me to just cut down on my stress. So in many ways I feel like I have "lucked-out" because so far he has really been there for me. And then some. And, so far, I haven't gone over into the transference from hell category either. That isn't to say that it has been perfect, but I think he knows what he is doing and I trust him. And for me, that says a lot.
Thank you for your post. I hope you keep posting here.
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 26, 2004, at 11:01:58
In reply to Re: Don't Let Go Yet - » Crooked Heart, posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 17:49:32
Sorry for not replying sooner. My usually reliable machine would choose the weekend to freeze up.
I hope you are feeling better and finding time to look after yourself as well as those around you.
> But it took you 5 years? hmmm. Did you find that you started for one reason and ended up in a quagmire of many different ones? I know essentially everything is linked and I guess I'm glad I'm trying to figure it all out now, but it is pretty hard.I started with various reasons. It would take too long to go into them, but it's odd cause now you mention links I can see a big one that hadn't struck me before. (So first the "cure" then, years later, the "aha". Some of us are a bit slow!)
I should have made it clear, the really bad depths didn't last for 5 years. (I hope you didn't get that impression!) The worst time was a matter of weeks not years, and the rest of the time there were highs as well as lows.
Certainly I don't know whether it *had* to take 5 years. (At the start I'd imagined maybe 6 months, 18 months at the outside. After a few months I was definitely one of the people who can't imagine therapy ending. My therapy finished because, very sadly, my therapist had to retire because of her long-term illness.) Reading what people have posted here has made me realise how different an experience therapy is for different clients and therapists. So I hope it doesn't need to take that long for you.
> A word about my Therapist: (OK, a couple of words)... ... but I think he knows what he is doing and I trust him. And for me, that says a lot.What more could one say? I'm so glad that you happened upon a therapist that's right for you.
Take care of yourself.
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