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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 20:43:52
2 sessions ago, my therapist was talking about how I was "stubborn" (I call it "controlling"). And how when I'm stubborn or falling apart that he can't make any progress with me. He wanted me to learn to tolerate not being in control. This really isn't news. I worked on control with my old therapist, but I think all we succeeded in doing was to make me control people in a more publically-acceptable manner. Sigh. So I left that session (scared, but) determined that I would work on tolerating being out of control.
I woke up on Thursday (my latest session) feeling incredibly scared - I knew I was scared about going to therapy - about all this "control" stuff. By the time it was 3PM I was an absolute wreck. I walked in, sat down, told him I was scared and couldn't tell him why. I couldn't say anything. He did figure out quickly what he needed to say "I'm not expecting you to be able to do this right away. We'll just keep our eyes open for when control surfaces here and outside in your life and we'll look at it. This is going to take a Long time." I didn't ask him what a "Long time" was, but I think it is measured in years.
I wish I could say that after he said this I felt immense relief and was able to talk in complete sentances. However, the whole session was a disaster and I was crying more at the end than at the beginning. He even checked his answering machine to see if the next person was going to be late - he would have let me stay a little. I didn't talk to anyone all night. I wouldn't answer my phone. Fortunately, I felt quite a bit better this morning when I woke up.
So. A long time? Yeah. I told him he was more patient than I am. I don't know how I am going to learn to tolerate "a long time".
Posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 22:58:32
In reply to A Long Time, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 20:43:52
You tolerate it day by day by day.
Isn't it funny that we don't want to be in therapy forever but we don't want to lose our Therapists either? Hmmmm... More than once my Therapist has said, "it took you 42 years to get here, do you really think we can undo it in 42 days?" Intellectually I get this, but it is hard. I think he is also dropping hints here and there about what I should expect as far as length of time...a week or so ago he said, "think about where you were two years ago...and where you will be two years from now." Of course, I could be reading too much into it.
AND, why do we equate "long time" with "really bad."
I know for me control is sooo important, partly because I had so little as a kid, partly because I can keep things emotionally where I can handle them. My Therapist isn't asking me to give up control -- he is asking me to take emotional risks (same thing, IMO, but I "guess" I can try to see the difference). He totally gives me the control when we are talking about past things, especially the abuse, but when we are spending time on present-day concerns or stressors, he seems to have more to say about how I might approach this or that.
Is there an area of control that is particularly concerning? For you or for him? I'm sure you recognize that you are "just" protecting yourself from hurt. Can you figure out what you were so anxious about? What could he possibly have asked of you during a session that would be horrible? (I have my own list, BTW, I don't want you to think that I doubt there are things to be anxious about.)
I wish I knew how to get comfortable with less control too. I'm working specifically on letting people close to me. It feels impossible, just too dangerous and scary. Which results in this all engulfing, soul-searing loneliness. My Therapist says I'm making progress because I've let him in, at least part of the way. I'm sure you can see progress too. You said yourself that you were determined to work on it.
Don't you wish we could just push through it and be done with it? It is this starting/stopping, backing up, turning around and THEN moving forward that is really making me nuts!
Try not to worry about it all weekend. I'm doing the same. I think it is going to be a long couple of days.
Post. I'll help if I can.
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2004, at 8:40:28
In reply to Re: A Long Time » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 23, 2004, at 22:58:32
> Don't you wish we could just push through it and be done with it? It is this starting/stopping, backing up, turning around and THEN moving forward that is really making me nuts!
>Daisy, you're really reading my mind today. I was going to say to Fallsfall that I think all her therapist was trying to tell her was to go a bit easier on herself. Fallsfall, if last session he told you that he thought it was a good goal for you to be able to tolerate a loss of control, and by this session you were terrified at the prospect, I imagine that he was just trying to reassure you that it didn't have to happen at once. That you could do it at a pace that would optimize your discomfort. :)
I imagine what Daisy said is true for most people. Not me, of course. I resent being pushed even by myself. And I'd be dancing at any mention of a long time by my therapist, so that I didn't have to feel I had him grabbed by the ankles and pinned down to scheduling appointments.
But I don't think traditional therapy works that way. You can't plough through it. You do go forward and back as you consolidate your gains and make them part of you. Quick changes of longstanding defense systems would probably crumble at the first severe stressor. Because when we're feeling awful, we go for the tried and true. I know dissociation is my best tool, so I use it even when it isn't the most appropriate tool. It takes a while to learn to use, and more importantly, to reach for new tools without a lot of thought or effort in time of trouble.
So settle in and enjoy the journey. And no, you aren't there yet. :) But you're passing gorgeous scenery while you're looking at the brochures of your destination.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 10:25:22
In reply to Re: A Long Time - Fallsfall » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2004, at 8:40:28
>I imagine that he was just trying to reassure you that it didn't have to happen at once. That you could do it at a pace that would optimize your discomfort. :)
This was my reaction to the post as well.
>
>You do go forward and back as you consolidate your gains and make them part of you. Quick changes of longstanding defense systems would probably crumble at the first severe stressor. Because when we're feeling awful, we go for the tried and true.Very well put. I have been struggling with this, too, as recent stressors caused me to feel like I was slipping back. But it took 37 (yikes) years to get this way for me. Glad I didn't wait til I was 60 to start therapy. I don't think I could live long enough to get better :)
> So settle in and enjoy the journey. And no, you aren't there yet. :) But you're passing gorgeous scenery while you're looking at the brochures of your destination.I love this!
Take care all,
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 12:21:06
In reply to A Long Time, posted by fallsfall on January 23, 2004, at 20:43:52
I don't have much to add. I'm glad that you are feeling better today. Just remember that each and every day is one day closer hun! It make take some time, but think of the payoff in the end. It WILL be glorious!! And everyone is here to help you as well!
I'm thinking about you.
Posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2004, at 13:25:06
In reply to Re: A Long Time, posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 12:21:06
Thank you all for your support.
I did know that he was telling me that I was asking too much of myself to be able to do it right away. But I think that I was mad about 2 things.
First, that I would assume that I was SUPPOSED to be able to do it right away. Why do I have such strict requirements for myself? If it were anyone else, I would have known that right off - why can't I see these things when it is me?
Second, once he told me it would take a long time why couldn't I calm down? Why was I still a nervous wreck 7 hours later? Why didn't his insight comfort me? I probably had some anger at myself for being so stupid. But I was wound up so much that day (from the time I woke up) - it was like nothing would be able to settle me down. Also, when he started to describe how therapy would work - we would be talking about something and "notice" that there was an element of the control issue in what we were discussing. This is so backwards from how I work on things - I want to TALK about the control and FIGURE OUT what to do about it and then DO it. (gee, maybe I want some control in therapy, what do you think?) I do believe that "the things that need to come up will come up", but I want to attack things head on and have a plan and a solution. His way just feels so out of control.
I also feel pretty stupid. My first therapy session (as an adult) was 9 years ago yesterday. Granted, I was in CBT for the first 8 1/2 years, but why is it that I haven't a clue how this beast is supposed to work after 9 years? after all the reading I've done? after all the talking? I don't like feeling stupid.
I guess I don't have to tell you that I'm feeling as good today as I did yesterday (but anything is better than how I felt on Thursday...).
Posted by lookdownfish on January 24, 2004, at 17:25:38
In reply to Re: A Long Time - Fallsfall » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 24, 2004, at 8:40:28
>But I don't think traditional therapy works that way. You can't plough through it. You do go forward and back as you consolidate your gains and make them part of you. Quick changes of longstanding defense systems would probably crumble at the first severe stressor. Because when we're feeling awful, we go for the tried and true. I know dissociation is my best tool, so I use it even when it isn't the most appropriate tool. It takes a while to learn to use, and more importantly, to reach for new tools without a lot of thought or effort in time of trouble.
Dinah - this is so wise and well put. My therapist is always telling me stuff like this, but she doesn't put it quite as well as you.
Posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 18:07:09
In reply to Re: A Long Time - All, posted by fallsfall on January 24, 2004, at 13:25:06
>>>His way just feels so out of control.
<<<Does it really? Or does it feel too slow and maybe a little dangerous? After all, if you notice a control thing going on, right there, in the moment, you'll have to confront it. I know I would hate that.
Listen to us...wanting to plan for the plan we need to control our control needs...geez!
You are NOT stupid. Almost no one can see in themselves what is obvious in others. Otherwise, none of us would need a Therapist. We could just have designated empty therapy rooms around town, reserve an hour and go in and set ourselves straight! I think you were so willing to do what he was asking, recognizing that he was leading you to the right path to go down, that you brought your bobsled and were ready to jump on and hold on for dear life...even if you knew you didn't know how to steer or stop. That was incredibly brave. Aren't you glad he wants to start on the bunny slopes instead?
Anxiety doesn't just dissipate. It takes time to soothe it away. Stop beating yourself up. But don't eat all the chocolate. I still need some.
Posted by fallsfall on January 25, 2004, at 9:40:20
In reply to Re: A Long Time » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 24, 2004, at 18:07:09
> >>>His way just feels so out of control.
>
> Listen to us...wanting to plan for the plan we need to control our control needs...geez!
>Yes, I want to plan for the plan I need to control my control needs. Exactly.
His way feels like it is absent of control. It feels anarchical. It is not that he has the control and I don't - it feels like NOONE has control.
I would prefer him to have control over anarchy - then at least *someone* is minding the store.
>I think you were so willing to do what he was asking, recognizing that he was leading you to the right path to go down, that you brought your bobsled and were ready to jump on and hold on for dear life...even if you knew you didn't know how to steer or stop. That was incredibly brave. Aren't you glad he wants to start on the bunny slopes instead?
>
No. Not really. I'm a fast learner (in anything logical, or procedural, or mathematic - gee, you mean Psychology is not that way? Like light and taste are different even though they both have to do with the senses?). I keep thinking I'll get "it" - though I don't seem to be learning that I don't get "it" (over and over and over). I don't want to be on the Bunny slopes. That reminds me that I'm not getting "it". I want to zip to the bottom (protected by the strong shell of the bobsled) and be done with it. I don't want to have to learn this stuff (it is so foreign to me that it is just frustrating to try to learn it). I just want to know it. At the bottom of the bobsled run is the chocolate.> Anxiety doesn't just dissipate. It takes time to soothe it away. Stop beating yourself up. But don't eat all the chocolate. I still need some.
>
>
I buy chocolate daily. Yesterday I found some Mint Hershey Kisses (regularly $3.29 a bag) on Christmas closeout for 82 cents a bag. I bought 4. I may go back and get the rest.
Posted by DaisyM on January 25, 2004, at 14:31:55
In reply to Re: A Long Time » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 25, 2004, at 9:40:20
Maybe you can't "Get it" because "it" is a moving target. We change daily, how we see things, the new things we learn. The more I read the less I know about Psychology. I think you have to experience things with people over and over again to "get it." We only experience ourselves.
I totally get what you mean about no one being in charge, it seems that way, doesn't it? I started out reading everything about techniques I could find, that way I would recognize "what he was doing to me." LOL -- It took me awhile to figure out that he follows me, redirecting and reframing but he doesn't come to each session with a lesson plan mapped out. But I have started to trust that while I am in charge in some ways, he will remain in charge of holding me together and keeping those boundaries. I hope you feel that way too.
There is nothing logical about your unconscience. So the same rules don't apply. I think that is why those of us who are "thinkers" have so much more trouble with this than those who are "feelers."
I think I'll go look for sale chocolate. Last night was really bad (too many nightmares) so mine is gone. Going to the library too...my favorite place to lose myself.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 6:09:56
In reply to Re: A Long Time » fallsfall, posted by DaisyM on January 25, 2004, at 14:31:55
I had trouble in the beginning with giving up control in therapy. My T had to remind me that he was the T and I was the client. He encouraged me to trust him and trust the process and just let go. It takes time. Some days are better than others, but I think I am getting there.
PS.I dream of having my own library in my home someday. Complete with someone to maintain it!
gg
Posted by Dinah on January 26, 2004, at 20:24:49
In reply to Re: A Long Time - Fallsfall » Dinah, posted by lookdownfish on January 24, 2004, at 17:25:38
Thanks! After a therapy session where I went round and round in dogged circles, it is nice to see that I've absorbed something. :)
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 27, 2004, at 6:24:40
In reply to Re: A Long Time » DaisyM, posted by fallsfall on January 25, 2004, at 9:40:20
Hi fallsfall
>...It feels anarchical. It is not that he has the control and I don't - it feels like NOONE has control.
>
> I would prefer him to have control over anarchy - then at least *someone* is minding the store.Well it's your LIFE you're talking about here. It's just utterly *terrifying* to feel something might spin out of control. There was one idea I found helped with my panic about this. Your therapist provides the boundaries, the frame, the skills etc and sure, you might have to think and find out about what's happening and maybe there are "mind exercises" that help. But there might also be a part of your therapy that's like a seed that's been planted, and there was no name on the packet it came in -- you don't know whether it's flower, vegetable, tree, even. You don't know how it grows, how long it takes, you can't plan it, you can't force it to grow. So you and your therapist just have to watch the plant begin growing, feed and water it when it seems to need it, put it in the sun or shade whichever it seems to prefer. Mostly you just have to admire how beautiful it is!
Hope that's not too fanciful to be useful. It helped me sometimes, but I should add a "health warning": I have a vested interest in believing that idea because I have Olympic gold medals for laziness and can watch paint dry, no problem, never mind plants growing :)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2004, at 6:49:57
In reply to Re: A Long Time » fallsfall, posted by Crooked Heart on January 27, 2004, at 6:24:40
>But there might also be a part of your therapy that's like a seed that's been planted, and there was no name on the packet it came in -- you don't know whether it's flower, vegetable, tree, even. You don't know how it grows, how long it takes, you can't plan it, you can't force it to grow. So you and your therapist just have to watch the plant begin growing, feed and water it when it seems to need it, put it in the sun or shade whichever it seems to prefer. Mostly you just have to admire how beautiful it is!
>I LOVE this metaphor. I just may have to use it, giving you credit, of course.
Thanks,
gg
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 27, 2004, at 12:46:59
In reply to Re: A Long Time » Crooked Heart, posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2004, at 6:49:57
Feel free, gardenergirl, that's a great compliment.
Would this be in your forthcoming book on therapy and horticulture? :)
Posted by fallsfall on January 27, 2004, at 12:55:52
In reply to Re: A Long Time » fallsfall, posted by Crooked Heart on January 27, 2004, at 6:24:40
Thanks, Crooked Heart.
That is a nice metaphor. I will try to get the wonderful message from it and forget that I kill all plants just by looking at them. Actually, there is this one ugly "tree" thing that the previous owner left 3 1/2 years ago. I haven't killed it yet, though I really have tried. I water it when the leaves are visibly drooping (and only then). For some reason, it keeps on growing. I had an Aloe plant at work that I kept alive for more than a year - that was a world record for me.
I am very impatient. As soon as the plant even started to sprout I would look at it's shape/color/size/etc. and try to figure out what it was going to be. That is, if I didn't dig up the seed before the growth reached the surface.
I am trying to be patient, but I hate feeling awful and not being able to do anything (and not wanting to do anything). I just know that I will want these days back when I start to feel better.
I'm trying to step back and watch it grow. I'll try not to water it too much, or stick things in the pot that will hurt the roots. This is really hard.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2004, at 13:11:55
In reply to Re: A Long Time » gardenergirl, posted by Crooked Heart on January 27, 2004, at 12:46:59
Great, I'll have to get busy procrastinating on that idea, too.!
:)
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on January 27, 2004, at 13:13:26
In reply to Re: A Long Time » Crooked Heart, posted by fallsfall on January 27, 2004, at 12:55:52
Hang in there! And congrats on the aloe plant.
gg
Posted by Crooked Heart on January 28, 2004, at 8:44:52
In reply to Re: A Long Time » Crooked Heart, posted by fallsfall on January 27, 2004, at 12:55:52
Does it help to remember you're not alone?
(PS I always used to be the kiss of death for plants too. Got better at it after finishing therapy--strange.)
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