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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 17:38:10
I read some prior posts suggesting this, but I would greatly appreciate any experiences/suggestions anyone may have regarding this.
I don't want to give my fish oils up (I take a total of about 1-1.5 grams EPA--not sure about the DHA component), but sometimes the anxious stimulation is just too much.
Also, is 1-1.5 grams EPA enough to cause significant anxiety? I haven't exactly pinpointed it because I've used the fish oil off an on and at different dosages but I'm pretty sure it's a major culprit in my anxiety. Thanks...Peace...Saturn.
Posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 18:02:11
In reply to Does taurine counteract fish oil-induced anxiety?, posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 17:38:10
OK I just looked at my bottle, Carlson's Fish Oil.One teaspoon= 800mg EPA, 500mg DHA, 300 "other" omega 3's. Roughly a ratio of 1.5 EPA/DHA.
So I take about 800-1200mg EPA with 500-750 DHA. Just FYI.
I believe I really do receive significant benefit from the fish oils in terms of my heart, skin, breathing and mood and concentration. Is perhaps the DHA component too much or should I consider taurine? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I really don't want to give up the fish oil but just may have to from the anxiety. Thanks again.
Posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 18:43:32
In reply to Does taurine counteract fish oil-induced anxiety?, posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 17:38:10
http://www.retailnet.com/story.cfm?ID=33177
http://www.minami-nutrition.us/omega3/index.php
http://www.fattyacidtrip.com/epa-to-dha-ratio/
...I found the first article interesting because of the very high EPA/DHA ratio that was used in the studies, and then subsequently found more info on supplements with EPA/DHA ratios from six-to-one to as high as eight-to-one.
I guess DHA is important for nervous system development and preventing preterm labor, but I'm also hoping perhaps that it is also the component more likely to induce anxiety. If so perhaps I won't have to throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak.
Posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 12:02:57
In reply to epa/dha, posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 18:43:32
I have tried minami-nutrition's ethyl epa. It is really effective, but also very effective in causing insomnia.
I also noticed that my skin got thinner and wrinkled, but the hard part was the insomnia.
I wouldn't mind beeing happy and wrinkled :-)I think most studies have shown that EPA is the most important omega-3 fatty acid in treating depression. But the most potent anti-inflammatory omega-3 is ETA found in green lipped mussles, unfortunately only in small amounts. I believe it is a precursor to EPA.
Posted by blueberry1 on December 17, 2006, at 12:28:26
In reply to Does taurine counteract fish oil-induced anxiety?, posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 17:38:10
There are studies that showed that when psychiatric patients improved on high EPA fish oil, and then regular fish oil with normal ratios of DHA were subsituted, the patients conditions worsened from where they had been on high ratio EPA. Don't know why. I don't think they've done enough studies to really know.
You could try a high ratio EPA version and see. The one I take is Nordic Naturals EPA. Each capsule has 425mg EPA and 100mg DHA. There is a brand called EPA Brite by Advanced Series that is pure EPA. It can be mailordered and it is pricey at about $50 a bottle.
I have some background anxiety all the time and I can't tell if it is because my zyprexa dosage has been creeping down ever so slowing or whether it is the fish oil or the lithium orotate.
Posted by tealady on December 17, 2006, at 16:21:30
In reply to Re: epa/dha » saturn, posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 12:02:57
> I have tried minami-nutrition's ethyl epa. It is really effective, but also very effective in causing insomnia.
> I also noticed that my skin got thinner and wrinkled, but the hard part was the insomnia.
> I wouldn't mind beeing happy and wrinkled :-)
>
> I think most studies have shown that EPA is the most important omega-3 fatty acid in treating depression. But the most potent anti-inflammatory omega-3 is ETA found in green lipped mussles, unfortunately only in small amounts. I believe it is a precursor to EPA.
>
that's intersting about your skin gtting thinner and wrinkled. mine did that too.. and it may have been fish oil.. who knows?
I wonder why ??BTW why do people here think omega3's are anti inflammatiry..I would have thougt thwy were pro inflammtory??.. ya know many double bonds leading to easy oxidation and perioxynitration etc.. free radical damage etc?? That's what the scientific research seems to be coming up with?.. but I KNOW this is an unpopular thing to mention on here.. I've tried before :-)
Posted by TENMAN on December 17, 2006, at 18:48:49
In reply to Re: epa/dha » dessbee, posted by tealady on December 17, 2006, at 16:21:30
You've got it backwards tealady. O-6's are pro-inflammatory. The overwhelming evidence points to EPA/DHA as anti-inflammatory by positively effecting certain enzymes involved in the response. Yes, you are correct that 0-3's oxidize easily thereby creating free radicals but they also upregulate the free radical scavengers SOD and Glutathione.
Posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 6:55:21
In reply to Re: epa/dha » dessbee, posted by tealady on December 17, 2006, at 16:21:30
EPA and AA (arachidonic acid) share the the same enzyme, delta-5-desaturase. Since EPA has stronger binding to this enzyme it will block formation of AA when EPA is in excess.
AA is used for producing inflammatory eicosanoids. EPA is used for producing anti-inflammatory eicosanoids. So the ratio between EPA and AA affects the body's inflammatory state.
It is interesting that ETA (eicosatetraenoic acid, precursor of EPA) is considered an even stronger anti-inflammotory agent (200 times), probably due to its stronger binding to the delta-5-desaturase. Problem is that it is not that common in food, only found in green lipped mussles.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid_interactions
Posted by tealady on December 18, 2006, at 15:15:28
In reply to Re: epa/dha » tealady, posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 6:55:21
> EPA and AA (arachidonic acid) share the the same enzyme, delta-5-desaturase. Since EPA has stronger binding to this enzyme it will block formation of AA when EPA is in excess.
> AA is used for producing inflammatory eicosanoids. EPA is used for producing anti-inflammatory eicosanoids. So the ratio between EPA and AA affects the body's inflammatory state.
> It is interesting that ETA (eicosatetraenoic acid, precursor of EPA) is considered an even stronger anti-inflammotory agent (200 times), probably due to its stronger binding to the delta-5-desaturase. Problem is that it is not that common in food, only found in green lipped mussles.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid_interactions> EPA and AA (arachidonic acid) share the same enzyme, delta-5-desaturase. Since EPA has stronger binding to this enzyme it will block formation of AA when EPA is in excess.
> AA is used for producing inflammatory eicosanoids. EPA is used for producing anti-inflammatory eicosanoids. So the ratio between EPA and AA affects the body's inflammatory state.
> It is interesting that ETA (eicosatetraenoic acid, precursor of EPA) is considered an even stronger anti-inflammatory agent (200 times), probably due to its stronger binding to the delta-5-desaturase. Problem is that it is not that common in food, only found in green lipped mussels.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid_interactionsThanks,
My mind always turns to some blubber like state when people start on about prostaglandins etc about:-)
I think its vastly simplified and only really gives one path out of many..and ignores the fact that call membranes are always fluid and changing and dependant on many other things.. eg. thyroid hormones.. the hypothyroid state seems to have a more polyunsaturated , specifically a more omega3 enriched membrane, which is probably why those of us cant tolerate fish oil as well:-)..and if you consider that oxidation etc happens at double bonds (where there's more than one)..and this oxidation is a part of the inflammation process, then you can see why a hypothyroid state gets easily oxidized..and I think this oxidation stuff produces anxiety (but that's only an idea I have).
I guess I meant to say all polyunsaturates are likely to lead to this oxidation stuff.. whereas saturates and monunsaturates don't.
I know it's simplifying, but then so was that wiki stuff:-)
Personally it's all a bit heavy for me..and I've no idea how they know what exactly is going on and there's too many variable.
I just know that GLA as in evening primrose oil does seem to help reduce that inflammation stuff (and this agrees with the wiki article you stated), and fish oil and DHA enriched fish oil does seem to increase this oxidation stuff and anxiety in me, but flaxseed seems to help, maybe that's fgot more EPA which would agree with your links in a way?
Maybe EPA high fish oil is what I'll try ..if I ever try it again.
I also shoulda said that its DHA that's mostly thought of as the worst one.. having more double bonds and more easily oxidised?
then again, this ONLY considers the cell membranes, DHA in the blood (and EPA)probably have many great uses.
I know the brain is high in omega 3's.. I think DHA ? but I'm not sure..which is why its supposed to help with depression?
It's been said if short on omega3's..eat brain.. but that's going a bit far, yuk..and even then I'd get worried:)Herr's a bit more for you.. it;s way more complicated than just prostaglandins, and I sure haven't figure it out.. I only know how I react and am looking for the reason why:)
TTR increase with fish oil fit in...
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/100/4/1580.pdfhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1850242&query_hl=38&itool=pubmed_docsum
Fatty acid composition of the mitochondrial phospholipids may be involved in the permeability differences.The links between membrane composition, metabolic rate and lifespan
"High DHA content in phospholipids is associated with high metabolic activity and this observation has led to the development of the "membrane pacemaker" theory of metabolism. This proposes that highly polyunsaturated acyl chains impart physical properties to membrane bilayers that enhance and speed up the molecular activity of membrane proteins and consequently the metabolic activity of cells, tissues and the whole animal. The brain has highly polyunsaturated membranes irrespective of body size and possible reasons for this are discussed. Highly polyunsaturated acyl chains are very susceptible to peroxidative damage. It is suggested that these chemical properties of highly polyunsaturated membrane acyl chains have important implications for understanding aging and the determination of longevity"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Search&itool=pubmed_AbstractPlus&term=%22Hulbert+AJ%22%5BAuthor%5Dhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10216165&query_hl=41&itool=pubmed_docsum
Thyroid hormone status and membrane n-3 fatty acid content influence mitochondrial proton leakomega 6 fatty acids and the effects of hyperthyroidism in mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=7738467&query_hl=30&itool=pubmed_docsumThe mechanism of the increase in mitochondrial proton permeability induced by thyroid hormones
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?itool=abstractplus&db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=1318835
OK, above aren't human studies..but as far as I'm aware rats are the possibly the closest animals that are cut up to determine all this stuff.. I don't think its possible on humans as yet precisely? so I thought maybe that wiki article on how the cascade re prostaglandins(which they said happened over seconds) happened in humans was maybe not actually based on human studies either. I'm not saying its wrong, just its only one probably many pathways and its all influenced by many other things, some of which I've given links to above..
so as I get sooo confused by all of this..I just go by how I feel and how some others say they feel..and I definitely feel like I've got increased oxidation on fish oil..and I'm hypothyroid so maybe that explains it..and I think I get increased anxiety when this oxidation stuff happens..
and it fits in with why someone here felt better after eating lamb as it was mainly EPA and saturated and monunsatured fats.... I replied there.. but it fits with the reduced oxidation stuff..at least a coupe of days worth, not much more..or it leads to too great an imbalance and more problems!All species (humans included) can only alter cell membranes within predefined species limits , and also considering status of other things like thyroid hormones, proteins etc!..so you can't change cell membranes that much .. back to where they were centuries ago and a bit more I'd guess:0).. which , of course, helps
Hope this helps clarify what I meant, I was a trying to be brief before .... LOLSo , for me at present, I just go on how I feel, and I'm interested in how others feel:).. but it's nice if I can figure out why I feel like I do.
Posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 15:32:16
In reply to Re: epa/dha » dessbee, posted by tealady on December 18, 2006, at 15:15:28
Japanese eat alot of fish and they have high life expectancy, so I wouldn´t worry too much about oxidation.
I am not a big fan of GLA supplement, since it is a precursor of both bad and good eicosanoids.
Our diet is already rich in omega-6 so I do not think we need primerose oil as a supplement.
Posted by tealady on December 18, 2006, at 16:58:07
In reply to Re: epa/dha » tealady, posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 15:32:16
> Japanese eat alot of fish and they have high life expectancy, so I wouldn´t worry too much about oxidation.
>
> I am not a big fan of GLA supplement, since it is a precursor of both bad and good eicosanoids.
> Our diet is already rich in omega-6 so I do not think we need primerose oil as a supplement.Yes, fish(I don't really like oily fish) seem a lot easier on me than fish oil :).. maybe its the iodine increasing the thyroid hormone and changing the membranes in that way too as a counterbalance..
AAARGH! :-)))) I give up.
I wouldn't recomment ea GLA supplemnet taken all the time either.
Thanks for the exchange
Posted by teejay on December 18, 2006, at 21:19:59
In reply to Re: epa/dha » dessbee, posted by tealady on December 18, 2006, at 15:15:28
"My mind always turns to some blubber like state....."
Odd, I thought your mind was always like that? :-)
Sorry Jan, only teasing. Just thought I'd pop in and say hello.
Been going through yet another rough patch lately, but the past few days its just lifted again all of its own accord. Seems to happen a lot now whereby I go through a prolongued rough spell followed by a welocme lifting which comes out of the blue. Generally doesn't last long though.
........and don't you dare mention the cricket!!! :-)
TJ
Posted by tealady on December 18, 2006, at 23:40:32
In reply to Re: epa/dha.............tealady, posted by teejay on December 18, 2006, at 21:19:59
> "My mind always turns to some blubber like state....."
>
> Odd, I thought your mind was always like that? :-)
>
> Sorry Jan, only teasing. Just thought I'd pop in and say hello.
>
> Been going through yet another rough patch lately, but the past few days its just lifted again all of its own accord. Seems to happen a lot now whereby I go through a prolongued rough spell followed by a welocme lifting which comes out of the blue. Generally doesn't last long though.
>
> ........and don't you dare mention the cricket!!! :-)
>
> TJ
>
>
Yeah the cricket .. guess I won't be getting any more emails from someone in the UK signed off lbw :-)You're pretty right about the blubber like state though... LOL
Great to hear that your picking up a bit tooI'm trying to stop wasting my time on here.. I obviously don't know what I'm going on about.. I sort of feel maybe I'm edging around it, but It's way too time consuming and complicated. I much prefer just to hear how people find things and what symptoms they have..so I can try and see if they might affect me the same or not or look for some vague pattern:-)
I was just trying to explain my statements.. but I keep sinking more and more into the quicksand or is it mud?.. just as long as there's no omegas in it!Hope you pick right back up there
Jan
Posted by saturn on December 19, 2006, at 14:41:06
In reply to Does taurine counteract fish oil-induced anxiety?, posted by saturn on December 16, 2006, at 17:38:10
Can anyone share info on Taurine dosages or tolerance issue.I just took my first 500 mg dose an hour or so ago...perhaps I feel a little placebo calmness, but minimal, and I realize it's too early and probably too low of a dose for appreciable effect.
I'm new to taurine...just sorta giving it a try. Magnesium used to work great for anxiety, calmness, concentration but seems to have pooped-out (perhaps I just repleted my stores). I'm hoping taurine may help to recapture some of those effects.
Anyhow, I've been reading old posts, but would appreciate any suggestions or info anyone could share. Thanks...Peace...Saturn.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2006, at 19:58:47
In reply to Taurine: Dosage, tolerance?, posted by saturn on December 19, 2006, at 14:41:06
Taurine is a good substance. I have taken it before bedtime and used it as a sleep aid. It seems to keep me waking up on the right side of the bed.
Anyhow, 500mg seems to be optimal for me. Sometimes I use a gram or so.
I usually take short breaks from it, maybe a little less than a week per month.
Taurine has got me out of some NASTY FUNKs though. Especially when you've got a million things going on, and you just can't get your mind to stop going in circles.
It shares a lot of similarities with mood stabilizers. PKC stabilization, calcium stabilization ERK mediated neurotrophic capacity.
It has anti-kindling properties. It can be very good for rapid cycling. Dr. A Stoll, the guy who popularized omega-3 for mood disorders, also speaks very highly of taurine in mood disorders.
All in all, I will always have some on hand esp when I feel like I am going insane.For me it has been a **really** good sleep aid. Even if I have taken too much caffine or omega-3. I head somewhere that it can normalize serotonin and melatonin levels, I'll look for the source.
I don't think I built up a tollerance. I usually take a break from it just to mix things up a bit.
Its not like a benzo in that it doesn't give you a buzz or anything. In terms of what it did for me, I havn't grown tollerant, just as I am still taking omega-3 6 years later with good effects.Best of luck
Linkadge
Posted by blueberry1 on December 20, 2006, at 17:44:28
In reply to Taurine: Dosage, tolerance?, posted by saturn on December 19, 2006, at 14:41:06
I tried taurine a few times last year. I don't remember what dose, but it was low. I think I broke tablets into halves. At that low of a dose I did not get a powerful calming that I was hoping for, but I did get a nice surprise in that it improved my mood somehow. It's almost as if it somehow makes everything else going on in your brain work better. I don't know how to describe it.
So many things worsen my depression. In my notes my comments about taurine were, "At no time did taurine worsen my mood".
After a week of using it I did feel more depressed. But I cannot point the finger at taurine. I was juggling all kinds of things around and trying something new almost on a daily basis and never sticking to anything. Even my taurine doses were irregular in size and timing.
I will probably revisit taurine since you brought it up. Though I am not in good shape right now, I am fairly stable and not changing a bunch of things. So this would be a good time to take another look.
One of the things I used taurine for was to cut back on the nervousness that tyrosine gave me after tyrosine wore off. Taurine not only got rid of that nervousness, but it also lifted my mood enough to notice.
Posted by Declan on December 22, 2006, at 3:53:12
In reply to Re: epa/dha » saturn, posted by dessbee on December 17, 2006, at 12:02:57
Blackmores sells a green lipped mussel extract.
(www.blackmores.com.au)
Supposed to be good for asthma and arthritis.
Posted by dessbee on December 25, 2006, at 13:26:50
In reply to Re: epa/dha » dessbee, posted by Declan on December 22, 2006, at 3:53:12
Green lipped mussel extract business is fishy business. Many companies do not specify lipid fraction nor ETA content. I figure som companies remove part of lipid fraction to use in lyprinol production, which is more profitable.
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