![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 11:10:43
In reply to Re: blocked » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 10:51:03
Of course, I don't mean to understand completely what you believe about the expression of "truth". It sounded to me as if you believed it to be a good thing, but I don't know to what extent you believe it to be a good thing.
It's just that I don't think everyone expressing what they believe to be the truth is a good thing. It's likely what goes on in a lot of political discourse today. I for one would prefer to see a lot more civility in that arena.
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 12:05:32
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 11:10:43
Dinah, you the sweetest, I just love how you post!!!
Now THAT I miss:)
I sorry you was so hurt in MS. I got a D in MS and it tough for sure.
And yes, I agree 'truth'(if its even truth, it may be lies) thrown repeatedly in ones face in order to hurt is not good.
But truth, respectfully submitted in order to try and help another make change...well, I agree, its a slippery slope....and yes, people will sometimes get hurt.....but then that is how there is change.
Its a real big word for sure. There are alot of delicacy in the application.
Also, I think with all our 'politeness' sometimes....that our skins have beciome too thin, and so much real communication is being lost in this world.
See eg, if specifically you Dinah, were to point out a truth to me that I didn't know(or was ignoring...) and it was initially hurtful and I felt mad. I would soon get over being mad, because of who it came from(and knowing you, it would be very carefully phrased!), and consider that it IS proabably truth, or some truth, and therefore I need to look more closely at it. And so there is trust. And I would be grateful that you trusted ME enuf to send that truth my way. And our relationship ultimately would be strengthened. Or, if we couldn't work it out, then thats ok too, cuz maybe we just not a good 'fit' as friends and we better off steering clear of each other(which is NOT true in this case! :)).
So its not a simple thing.
And I don't think there is a magical 'formula' that will cover it.
Its about the unmeasurable/undefinable grace, trust etc.
But to get to that special place of trust, one might have to slog thru some mud.....that is life. Its not always pretty, but thru strife(or mud!?), we can grow if we wish.
Or we can hide behind walls, and formulas and blocks...
My thots
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 12:57:47
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 12:05:32
And if it wasn't from someone you trusted? Or someone who tried to phrase it politely?
You're describing the ideal, and that when it happens between people who are already close. It's hard enough in a friendship or a marriage. Babble is an open internet group.
Dr. Bob was gone for a very long time in that thread. I didn't see the dynamics you describe occurring. It isn't my belief that it would have happened in another week either. It isn't what I see at other sites who have loose moderation either.
What's appropriate for one place isn't necessarily appropriate for another. What's appropriate for friends who care about each other isn't appropriate for acquaintances who may well not. Not that there aren't friendships on Babble, but given the broad range of posters it's not a given that everyone will consider themselves friends with everyone else, or have any deep caring for them.
You don't think the current rules reflect what's appropriate for an open internet group like Babble. I do.
If Babble became some big process group, it will suit those who wish to be in a big process group. It won't suit those who wish a suitably civil place to discuss mental health medication, therapy, and issues without having a lot of conflict.
Babble will never suit everyone.
Posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 13:29:43
In reply to Re: blocked » muffled, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 12:57:47
yeah, its the mostly happy, more-medium I am looking for...
I find it too heavy here.
Which is why I am not here anymore.
But that makes me sad, cuz i so enjoyed so many of the people here.
But then there was trouble, and I am afraid I am not one to stand by! I am always the one who wades into the thick of it and tries to help.
I am the interefering Mom on the playground.
I am the Mom who reports kids I am concerned about to administration.
I am the one who calls the cops and follows impaired drivers, prepared to try and stop them if need be....
I can't stand by and see what is in "My" (apparently exalted...to me anyways ;-)) opinion cruel, or unfair.
Why do I keep comming back? VERY good question.
I think because, until the reality of Bobs behaviours finally sunk in, I was blissfully ingnorant(ah there's that word!) and kept thinking surely Bob will listen. But he didn't, so I had to leave.
But this place was like family to me. The people very very very real indeed. I cared deeply about them. The cared about me. It was like a home, like family. And me, I am faithful like a dog(hence while I am still married to my H, when 99.9% of women would have left him LONG ago). I don't lightly give up on a strong friendship.
So, I wander back, ever hoping things might be different, that maybe I can connect again.
But it hasn't changed.
Still the same, same reasons I can't be here.
But I keep hoping.....
:(
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by muffled on December 3, 2010, at 13:29:43
> I feel it may be necessary sometimes to be able to express ourselves here regardless of whether or not it is an expression of an opinion that may not be liked by someone. As long as there is no intention to be malicious or put someone down, expressing such opinions in an articulate a reasonable way is a part of everyday constructive and productive conversation. I feel that this is what is missing here on Babble. There simply appears to be too much censorship. When there is too much censorship, there is little opportunity for cohesion and growth. A tightly controlled and overprotected community is a cold, distant, and stagnant community.
>
> MorganYour freedom of speech is limited here. It can be therapeutic to express yourself, but this isn't necessarily the place.
People can be hurt even when that's not intended.
Conversation here isn't necessarily like everyday conversation. The goal of everyday conversation isn't necessarily to support and educate.
When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
> How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones?
Storms are meaty. But then people stay home.
> > To the extent that we try and protect ourselves, we cannot truly live; and to the extentet we truly live, we cannot place our highest value on protecting ourselves.
>
> muffledSo the question is how to balance protecting ourselves (and others) and "truly" living. I don't see it as either-or.
--
> Those that been here any length of time, know that for whatever reason, controversy seems to crop up around her.
> In a way she is a good wake up call.
> if a poster is causing you a problem, then just try and kindly avoid them.Yes, how people treat someone they perceive to be different can be a good wake-up call. If it's an accepting, supportive community, the person will be, well, accepted and supported -- or kindly avoided. If it isn't, they'll be subjected to incivility. Has anybody here ever been perceived to be different?
--
> I kinda wished bob would email posters, no names mentioned(like ME when i being bad), if they have ONGOING issues that keep causing trouble.
> Cuz sure as sh*t you can't do it here cuz then you'd be accused of being uncivil, and I don't like stuff btwn posters hidden in bmails.
> But see, here is another example that if the community was more stable and safer, then we could work on this stuff.> I am the one who calls the cops and follows impaired drivers, prepared to try and stop them if need be....
I wish more posters had friends like you who would try to stop them if they had ongoing issues that kept causing trouble. You can trust your friends to work on that stuff and not to accuse you of being uncivil.
> I have found the best ways to get closer(as close as I get w/anyone anyways...) is by making repair when we DO have a problem. THAT is how trust is built.
> here ... if we screw up, we blocked with no chance to make repair w/in a decent time frame.I don't block anyone instantaneously. They have an opportunity to make repair before they're blocked. And if that isn't enough time, they have another opportunity when they return.
--
> Sometimes the truth bites :(
> But I want to know the truth.
> I been bitten by truth, then gone and licked my wounds, thot bout it, and then if the 'truth' has come from a person I respect, I will give it serious thot, and then....hopefully change my ways.> truth, respectfully submitted in order to try and help another make change...well, I agree, its a slippery slope....and yes, people will sometimes get hurt.....but then that is how there is change.
> But to get to that special place of trust, one might have to slog thru some mud.....that is life. Its not always pretty, but thru strife(or mud!?), we can grow if we wish.
The truth is, sometimes people are uncivil here. But despite the strife, they can grow if they wish, especially if they're supported in doing so.
--
> I remember one time there was a particularly nasty post, that a poster was unable to tear herself away from, and she was obsessively reading it and hurting herself, and Bob would NOT remove it, tho I absolutely debased and begged.
> he simply won't act in the best interests of any one poster alot of times. He just sees globally.My responsibility is global. When a poster's hurting, it's the role of other posters to support and educate them.
--
> me, I am faithful like a dog
> So, I wander back, ever hoping things might be different, that maybe I can connect again.
>
> muffledThanks for being faithful, and hopeful, and not giving up.
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 3:13:59
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
My head kinda messed ATM, but it good bob that you write words, and that you share links and stuff cuz then people can know better where you comming from.
See, that a good thing. You see that? Then we can know you and that is ok. You don't goto hide away.
I can see peoples inside kids sometimes. I don't like it really, but then I remember they was once kids and they hurt too.
Then I try and be nice.
My head is kinda messed and I can't sleep.
I reading.
But I come back and try and think and just I am saying I am reading and thinking.
All right.
Thx
M
Posted by alexandra_k on December 4, 2010, at 5:53:36
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.equivocation.
'incivility' - what you say is true. but that fact doesn't provide any support for your civility* rules or your determination of which posts are uncivil*
'incivility*' - I don't believe that the above is true. and that is what you need to justify your rules and your determination.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 7:10:12
In reply to Re: blocked, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2010, at 9:53:37
Well since I'm the person who said what you're talking about (and I luv when that happens, to have my words dissected by others without being involved in the discussion, yowza!), all I can support my words with, which I already retracted; is that I was speaking sincerely from personal, repeated experience.
Now that makes a difference in my book.
pc
Posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 8:16:47
In reply to Re: blocked » Dinah, posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 7:10:12
I'm sorry, PC. Your words were involved, but I was speaking to the people who were agreeing with them. I thought Phillipa might feel hurt. In similar circumstances, I felt hurt. In similar situations, I felt as hurt by the agreements as by the original statement. Perhaps more so, because it was ongoing.
You did retract your statement, and I have no issue with you at all.
However, since you did retract, I should have addressed the issue of agreeing without using the words of your post.
I will try to remember that in future.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 4, 2010, at 9:27:26
In reply to Re: blocked » PartlyCloudy, posted by Dinah on December 4, 2010, at 8:16:47
> I'm sorry, PC. Your words were involved, but I was speaking to the people who were agreeing with them. I thought Phillipa might feel hurt. In similar circumstances, I felt hurt. In similar situations, I felt as hurt by the agreements as by the original statement. Perhaps more so, because it was ongoing.
>
> You did retract your statement, and I have no issue with you at all.
>
> However, since you did retract, I should have addressed the issue of agreeing without using the words of your post.
>
> I will try to remember that in future.
>Thank you, Dinah. That means a lot to me.
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 10:48:50
In reply to Re: regarding phillipa, and 'net in general, posted by sigismund on December 2, 2010, at 14:59:11
> >How can we speak??? How can we have 'real' convos? MEATY ones? We can't, so it can only be shallow.
> And that is NOT really truly supportive.
> Its just the same b*llsh*t we do every day...."Hi! How are you?", , "Oh, I'm fine..." FLUFF
>
> Great to hear you, M.*** Thx :-)
Posted by sigismund on December 4, 2010, at 14:04:25
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
>When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
Of course that's not true.
When there's too much incivility things get noisy and rowdy and fights break out.
But none of the things you mention occur.
Maybe the cohesion and growth, but certainly not stagnant.
The archives for the Politics Board will attest to that.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:27:44
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
>Not always. Sometimes..."When there's too much incivility (WITH CIVILITY RULES AND ITS APPLICATION), a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth."
Hence, the reduction in active members and reduced postage.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:36:05
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> My responsibility is global. When a poster's hurting, it's the role of other posters to support and educate them.
>I agree with the support and the educate part at any other time except when they're PBC'd (for apologies and rephrases).
I don't want to be on Karpman's Triangle stage where my role is to play an R by asking a V to apologize and rephrase when the V is hurt by your P.
This is my view, I realize, but I will always choose to exit and not participate in this dynamic. Not because I don't care about the other posters, but because it is effective for me to do so.
Posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:43:30
In reply to Re: blocks, posted by Dr. Bob on December 4, 2010, at 2:06:41
> > muffled
> Thanks for being faithful, and hopeful, and not giving up.
>
> Bob
>For me, remaining a PC member is no longer about being faithful, hopeful, and not giving up on this site. It's about using the imperfections of this site to help me better function in my imperfect real life. I learn much about myself from my reactions to various dynamics here. (I guess this is where one of Linehan's favorite phrases "When life hands you a lemons, make lemonade." comes in.) However, I would still like to see the PBC/Block rules re-worked as posted by SLS in the "This place is dying" thread. :)
I am grateful to you, Bob, for providing this place, imperfections and all. It's a unique forum where I have gained insights about myself through many special people. Your site also provides me with many opportunities to utilize dbt when I feel too overwhelmed and house-bound. Thanks.
Cheers, Bob.
Free
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 3:15:30
In reply to Re: blocks » Dr. Bob, posted by Free on December 4, 2010, at 17:36:05
> > When there's too much incivility, a community can be cold, distant, and stagnant, and there can be a loss of spontaneity, naturalness, expressiveness, and opportunity for cohesion and growth.
>
> Of course that's not true.
>
> When there's too much incivility things get noisy and rowdy and fights break out.
> But none of the things you mention occur.
> Maybe the cohesion and growth, but certainly not stagnant.OK, the fighters aren't stagnant, but the bystanders are.
> The archives for the Politics Board will attest to that.
>
> sigismundWhat about these archives? Politics is the politics of elsewhere. Admin is the politics of here. :-)
--
> I don't want to be on Karpman's Triangle stage where my role is to play an R by asking a V to apologize and rephrase when the V is hurt by your P.
>
> FreeMaybe in those terms I'd see you in the V role: losing your friends to blocks, stuck somewhere cold, distant, and stagnant, and feeling powerless?
Bob
Posted by Free on December 5, 2010, at 4:59:26
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 3:15:30
> > I don't want to be on Karpman's Triangle stage where my role is to play an R by asking a V to apologize and rephrase when the V is hurt by your P.
> >
> > Free
>
> Maybe in those terms I'd see you in the V role: losing your friends to blocks,
stuck somewhere cold, distant, and stagnant, and feeling powerless?
>
> Bob
Maybe...But then I'd also see you in the V role:
Losing (BABBLERS/POSTERS) to blocks,
stuck somewhere
cold, distant, and stagnant, and feeling powerless.Cheers,
Free
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 16:26:35
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles » Dr. Bob, posted by Free on December 5, 2010, at 4:59:26
> > Maybe in those terms I'd see you in the V role: losing your friends to blocks, stuck somewhere cold, distant, and stagnant, and feeling powerless?
>
> Maybe...
>
> But then I'd also see you in the V role: Losing (BABBLERS/POSTERS) to blocks, stuck somewhere cold, distant, and stagnant, and feeling powerless.I regret losing posters, but I don't feel powerless. I can explain the guidelines to them and encourage other posters to encourage them to stay. But what I can do is limited, I can't force people to stay, or others to encourage them to stay.
There's less activity here than before, but I don't feel it's stagnant. People still support and educate each other, and I think social media, a point system, some kind of Elders Council, and social network analysis are all exciting new directions to consider, and I'm sure there are others.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 17:10:50
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 16:26:35
> There's less activity here than before, but I don't feel it's stagnant. People still support and educate each other, and I think social media, a point system, some kind of Elders Council, and social network analysis are all exciting new directions to consider, and I'm sure there are others.
>
> BobHas it been your experience that these things (with the exception of the Elders Council) are things that posters want?
But I suppose that isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things, in comparison to what is exciting to *you*. Given that you own the site, you will use it for what you find exciting.
And those who feel powerless will probably move on. It's the only power posters have.
Perhaps you'd like to implement gated communities and editing as a form of civility too?
*I* certainly have no objections at this point.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 17:19:09
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 17:10:50
I wish to be clear that what I meant was that, pragmatically, Babble is yours and you can use it as you wish. You don't need to take poster wishes into account. You can do what you wish and welcome those posters who find it acceptable. It isn't a democracy. It's a site owned by one person.
Posted by Free on December 5, 2010, at 17:46:44
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 16:26:35
> I regret losing posters, but I don't feel powerless.
I accept that you don't feel powerless.
But I don't feel powerless either. Not here anyway.
> There's less activity here than before, but I don't feel it's stagnant. People still support and educate each other, and I think social media, a point system, some kind of Elders Council, and social network analysis are all exciting new directions to consider, and I'm sure there are others.
>
> BobI'm too tired and busy IRL today to get into all this, but I wanted to quickly acknowledge your post.
I don't necessarily agree with all of your ideas, but I do appreciate your optimism for your site. And I know how hard you're trying, even though we don't see eye to eye. (As I said in another thread, I'd like to see the PBC/Block rules re-worked as posted by SLS in the "This place is dying" thread.) :)
Well, whatever happens, I hope it all works out for you and everyone involved, Bob.
Thanks for your sincere reply.
Free
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2010, at 23:39:47
In reply to Re: Politics and Triangles, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 17:19:09
> Babble is yours and you can use it as you wish. ... It isn't a democracy. It's a site owned by one person.
I can't make posters do as I wish, and posters can't make me do as they wish. But I can do what I can, and posters can do what they can. If posters are unwilling or unable to see what they can do, they remain in the V role. But that doesn't mean I should stop doing what I can do.
Bob
Posted by Zeba on December 9, 2010, at 2:04:34
In reply to Re: Triangles, posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2010, at 23:39:47
> > Babble is yours and you can use it as you wish. ... It isn't a democracy. It's a site owned by one person.
>
> I can't make posters do as I wish, and posters can't make me do as they wish. But I can do what I can, and posters can do what they can. If posters are unwilling or unable to see what they can do, they remain in the V role. But that doesn't mean I should stop doing what I can do.
>
> BobIn my humble opinion, anyone who gets blocked multiple times and keeps coming back is someone who could be considered a victim or V role as you describe it. The thing is, if there is a victim, that means there is also a perpetrator. So I guess I am not referring to a victim role but rather to the notion that bhe blocker becomes the perpetrator when the blockeed keeps getting blocked. So, that is probalby someting to consider for the blocker and blockee in my opinion.
I don't know how many people get blocked over and over to the point they are gone for a year and then come back so it starts all over again, but there is something wrong there in those situations. There should be a way to discern what kind of block someone should have based on the circumstances and situation. For eg;, if it due to some sort of heated situatio, then a short block would be in order no matter who or how many times the person had been blocked as there is something else to be addressed with that person who gets upset and angry quickly. If someone is sort of dense and does not understand why they might be blocked or doesn't unerstand why they wre blocked, they don't necessarily need a long block either and need help with understanding what they did. Okay, long enough.
Zeha (used to be Ozland) who is rarely around anymore.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 10, 2010, at 0:08:57
In reply to Re: Triangles, posted by Zeba on December 9, 2010, at 2:04:34
> > If posters are unwilling or unable to see what they can do, they remain in the V role.
>
> In my humble opinion, anyone who gets blocked multiple times and keeps coming back is someone who could be considered a victim or V role as you describe it.Yes, if they're unwilling or unable to see what they can do (recognize their power).
Bob
Posted by morgan miller on December 14, 2010, at 22:43:00
In reply to Re: feeling vs posting, posted by morgan miller on November 29, 2010, at 18:10:37
> > > Come on Dr. Bob, all she was saying was that she did not find much value in the apology that was made, in what I thought was an intelligent expression of feeling and thought. FB seems very reasonable and I'm sure she had good reason to feel the way she did about the apology/apologies that were made.
> >
> > I didn't mean to imply that it was unreasonable to feel that, my point was just that it was uncivil to post it.
> >
> > Bob
>
> I understand. Still, I feel it may be necessary sometimes to be able to express ourselves here regardless of whether or not it is an expression of an opinion that may not be liked by someone. As long as there is no intention to be malicious or put someone down, expressing such opinions in an articulate a reasonable way is a part of everyday constructive and productive conversation. I feel that this is what is missing here on Babble. There simply appears to be too much censorship. When there is too much censorship, there is little opportunity for cohesion and growth. A tightly controlled and overprotected community is a cold, distant, and stagnant community.
>
> MorganI may have misunderstood the context in which PC's statement was made and who it may have been directed at. I think I understand better now why PC's statement may have hurt someone that it was directed at.
This is the end of the thread.
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