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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
Alot of websites, i've looked up besides this on, such as bluelight, are more "uncivil" about using medication. Its more of a public blog, that doesnt have any rules. I've seen some people talk about there presciption drug usage which is incredibly confusing how they do this, with a doctor.
I posted to some of them, but they didnt give me real advice. They where like....well "its your problem". I like it here because its, more "medical" guidelines, not how people want to use there medication.....use misuse and abuse.
But, at this moment writing this i'm at work, i feel so "dull", i feel like a robot, i can't express emotions, and it gets depressing. It's like being on anti-psychotic, exept you can do office work, and think. Get kinda what it feels like?
I dont like it at all, im on 45mg (3spansules) which i started just taking 3 spansules in the morning which, it delivers 22.5 for 3-4 hours. Then afternood, its wierd, it slowly releases it.
Well whatever how it does, it makes me feel awful, which when i was a kid, and took adderall, i felt the same thing.
I do notice at 30-40mg is when dextroamphetamine provides a concentration, without the zombie feeling. Low doses such as 5-20mg seem to do this, well in my case..."zombie man"
I've talked with my psychiatrist, and he's back "offish" about dexedrine, yet, he put me on 140mg (2 70mg Capsules) way over the medical guidelines, in just one session, and said, this aougtta do it! made me paranoid, and Vyvanse is diffrent from the standard Amphetamine medications, it has diffrent side effects. And actually, Dexedrine Spansules last LONGER than Vyvanse did for me. Vyvanse would take 1-2 hours to get to the peak and work, then wear off about 6 hours after ingestion.
I've changed from my youthful-bad past of abuse, i said, "you need this medication, you fall apart and dont function correct when your not on it" And for 2 years, i went through the most nuerotic, attention loss, when i was not on any stimulant. I lost everything, forgot everything people said, breakdown.
So, this doctor got angry with me, when i asked him for 3 spansules in morning and 3 in afternoon. He said that going up 300%, no! well he did it Vyvanse....well i dont know. Just never tell a doctor what you think the correct dose would be, it really pisses there ego's off.
But how can i explain to him, that this medication at this dose is partically helping with concentration, but "zombified" most of the day, and its miserable.
Please advice....!! but dont let this disturb
Just some advice: how should i tell him, it makes me feel terrible at this dose?
rj
Posted by West on November 3, 2008, at 15:10:34
In reply to Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
That amphetamines are still in use as psychiatric drugs is a very contentious issue as i'm sure you are aware. They have no lasting benefits on mood and will cause depression even in those otherwise unsusceptible. Their use even at modest dosages tends to deplete the brain of endogenous monoamines and prevents their levels from reaching a level healthy enough to provide a good mood. What you describe might be tolerance or even some breakthrough depression. Tapering off is an option if you wish to remain free from reliance on amphetamines. Ritalin is much safer if you feel you need to take a psychostimulant for difficulties with attention and concentration, a drug habit is still a drug habit regardless of who is dispensing the drugs, and receiving them on script from a doctor doesn't legitimise their use. If you ARE depressed i suggest taking an antidepressant. Tapering off the dexedrine and hanging at a low dose is an option. Selegiline inhibits MAOb, the enzyme responsible for deanimating 80% of dopamine produced and is in addition a neuroprotectant, not a neurotoxin. Omega 3 oils might also be worth looking into. In drive deficient apathetic/anergic states i can recommend the ADs milnacipran, bupropion and reboxetine.
Incidentally During world war II British scientists ran some very scrupulous research on d-amphetamine when its use was proposed for fighter pilots in the RAF during long missions. The results they came up with concluded that it was ratings of pleasure, not performance, that were enhanced. Caffeine provided a better overall performance but had peripheral effects unsuitable for pilots navigating planes and manning sensitive controls, so they allowed its use only where srtictly necessary. Germany had long stopped using amphetamines at this point after manufacturing and distributing huge quantities of it to troops during world war I and discovering the detrimental effects they had on troops long-term. Reports of increased time for recovery and fatigue after taking Pervitin became common, as did the incidence of mood disruption and addiction.
Thanks
West
Posted by Glydin 3.9 on November 3, 2008, at 15:18:53
In reply to Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
> Just some advice: how should i tell him, it makes me feel terrible at this dose?
>
> rj~~~ Maybe tell him just like you wrote it? (Smile)
It's unfortunate it's not working out for you, you had been jonzin' for it for years and finally got it....
Posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2008, at 17:05:03
In reply to Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
RJ print your thread out and bring to pdoc see what he says. Sorry not working. Phillipa
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:12:31
In reply to Re: Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up » rjlockhart04-08, posted by Phillipa on November 3, 2008, at 17:05:03
ugh.........do you people understand, i hate my life.
Before, even i started taking stimulants, i was miserable, i hated my childhood. I would rather just overdose on Secobarbital, whatever would make it goaway, so i could blow myself right up to heaven, because i am christain. But suffer severely with Attention Deficit Disorder, and depression, and these words of profecy just really made my day. Thank You West, Glydin....i dont know what to say, i just know that all my danm life people have looked down on me.
I HATE MY LIFE? YOU GET IT? i'm just typing at night.....i take it the morning, and when it wears off, it wears off. Bottem line. I do not attempt any of my past behavior's with d-amphetamine.You all just made my day, HAVE A WONDEFUL day tommorow.
be blessed, and know there is a person who hates there life so much, but wont end it. That's one danm tough person, besides my mother beat me down with words, and chaotic behavior.
The World does not Understand. I guess that always going to be like that.
i'm glad you feel better making me feel like absoutle gutter in NY.
rj
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:21:59
In reply to Re: Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:12:31
do you guys know why??? i changed my sceen names, because people critize my writings, and i'm not going to get uncivil, but alot people hate me. You hate, you hate me. I'm just wondering, what? and why does this medication make me feel this way?
And i do undertand what longterm outcomes are, and thank you for telling them to me.
:) Peace?
rj
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:26:52
In reply to Re: Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:21:59
Man i send you babblemail, which EEEEEE! DIDNT work!
i mean every sunday "There is comfort in this house" Me:"YES! southern comfort, swig it down you'll have peace and comfort"! AMEN! GLORY TO GOD
Danmit everytime i post something people are always paranoid, or because of my stupid rotten past, they see that, and not the new person that is trying to develop.
Southern Comfort?
rj
Posted by West on November 4, 2008, at 16:46:17
In reply to Re: West are you out there? please come talk..., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 21:26:52
> Man i send you babblemail, which EEEEEE! DIDNT work!
>
> i mean every sunday "There is comfort in this house" Me:"YES! southern comfort, swig it down you'll have peace and comfort"! AMEN! GLORY TO GOD
>
> Danmit everytime i post something people are always paranoid, or because of my stupid rotten past, they see that, and not the new person that is trying to develop.
>
> Southern Comfort?
>
> rjDear RJ
I am sorry to disappoint you but i cannot receive babblemail since i was caught 'soliciting' drugs through it once (or as the case may be, trying to sell some tianeptine i had left over). I am also sorry to hear you are going through a hard time at the moment and although i won't pretend to know exactly what you're going through (which sounds complicated) I can certainly empathise with the suffering which you convey with great conviction in your posts.
Might i enquire as to your nation of origin? Some of your language and writing style suggest somebody for whom english is not a first language. Am i wrong
Firstly Re. the amphetmaines: the only advice i will probably ever dispense on the subject to you, or anybody else for that matter, will be predominantly negative in tone, so if you want positive encouragement of sympathy over your treatment then i suggest somebody less informed, and perhaps kinder than me.
The invention of the molecule represents a 40 year backpedalling in the advancement of decent psychiatric medicine in my opinion. However, it appears that some, in particular those habituated to the drugs over extremely long periods of time (10-20 years), really cannot experience normality (cope) without them. If this sounds like you i would still suggest tapering, taking pains to do it as slowly as possible -why you might ask?- not because i am some billious drug-free angel of god on a mission to force sinners to repent, but simply because they represent singularly perhaps the most erroneous treatment option where long term happiness is concerned, with only the most marginal number of people actually benefiting from their long-tern use- addiction seems a very real possibility, tolerance usually necessitates raising the dosage, this in turn increases depletion of dopamine and norepinephrine and downgrading of their response. Go at hard enough and you will develop parkinson's much sooner than you had hoped.
Additionally since you are depressed, you should CERTAINLY not be taking d-amphetamine without an antidepressant. Some of the SSRIs are reported to even potentiate the effects of psychostimulants'- Venlafaxine in particular, and of course you would have the added advantage of being something genuinely designed to raise mood, although i cannot recommend them or others in their class since they de-sensitized me in a way that makes me quite angry. Trying bupropion or mirtazapine with either modafinil or selegiline at low doses <10mg could be a good idea. Both provide a sense of well-being coupled with increased cognitive functioning without having the negative repercussions, and frankly undesirable acute and after effects of amphetamines.
If this fails consider importing one of the other antidepressants widely used in European psychiatry from an international pharmacy, though their efficacy might not always be guaranteed. Both provide a strong sense of well-being without having the negative repercussions and frankly undesirable acute, and after, effects of amphetamine.
Finally, i am no expert in such matters but it would appear that you have some issues for which treatment with antidepressants alone would be unsuitable. If you think you are experiencing altered perception or hearing the voices of others talking clearly to you i would strongly suggest finding somebody you trust (a loved one, a doctor) to talk to. Even if the problem isn't serious you will most likely benefit from explaining these things to somebody and hopefully working through some of the ghosts from your past which are clearly hindering your path to wellness.
Sorry if some of this sounds trite. Do know that i wish you the best and understand at least in part some of what ails you.
God Bless (from someone who doesn't feign to be religious)
West
Posted by connor on November 5, 2008, at 21:55:40
In reply to Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
Well bluelight is for recreational drug users, I don't think many of them are using it in conjunction with a doctor, they're doing it to get "high" not treat ADHD. Furthermore if you're not reacting well to detro-amphetamine ask for a new medication. What makes you think Dexidrine will work for you? Say vyvanase makes you feel weird and he'll put you on omething else
Posted by bleauberry on November 6, 2008, at 18:23:21
In reply to Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 3, 2008, at 14:22:33
When it comes to dopamine, I think things are really confusing. I mean, a stimulant at a strong dose should send anybody through the roof, and certainly have nothing at all like apathy attached to it, right? Yet, it can calm hyper kids down. With you it makes you feel zombified and apathetic.
A couple thoughts to ponder:
I've seen at other forums that there is a massive difference between brand Smithklein Beecham and generic, with the generic being absolute garbage in comparison. According to other people, brand amphetamine compared to generic amphetamine is like comparing two totally different drugs, with the generic version being crud. For some people, they gladly pay the higher cost for the quality and uniqueness of the brand version.Reading up on pramipexole I discovered that theories point to the D2 receptors as being responsible for inhibition and anti-anxiety, with the D3 receptors being responsible for the get-up-and-go motivated feelings. Well, in some people they have D3 outnumbering D2 receptors, and in other people it is just the opposite. So if you stimulate dopamine receptors overall in blanket fashion like with a stimulant, and there happens to be more D2 than D3, maybe lethargy and apathy would result? Don't know, just something I was pondering. In the same way, if someone had more D3 than D2, maybe even just a tiny dose would be extremely stimulating?
Posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 8, 2008, at 10:34:39
In reply to Re: Feeling apathic on Dextroamphetamine - straight up, posted by bleauberry on November 6, 2008, at 18:23:21
You know, i finally realized, i've been on Ritlin, Strattera, and Adderall, Vyvanse(just recent). Dextroamphetmaine istself, calms me down, but causes my thinking to be either lowered and "orderly", but it also causes an effect that it suppresses "life" emotion, i look depressed on Low doses of Dexedrine, because i've concluded low doses stimulate only to a certain extent of the brain, D2, not D3.
In the past....60mg of Adderall made me active, but this is really funny, when i was on 40mg of Dextroamphetamine, i became, more direct, but not "jittery" like adderall. Adderall would cause horrible "skin" "heart" "eye dialotion" irrations, and thinking of the Generic brand of Adderall (MIXED AMPHETAMINE SULPHATE) is gross.
In the past, if Benzedrine was brought back, (50%dextroamphetamine/50%levoamphetamine), i could not take it. Levoamphetamine causes more activity in attention, and being aware of things around you. Dextroamphetamine is more thinking, focused, and helps with derailed thinking (in my case), and the only anxiety it would cause, would be mental anxiety, levoamphetamine causes psychical anxiety itself. Believe me, i was Adderall (MIXED AMPHETAMINE SULPHATE) from 1997-2005. Ritilin, which i was on in 1996 (2nd grade) i just rerember, it suppressed emotions and just caused focus, it didnt really have the stimulation amphetamine does. But amphetamine releases nuerotransmitters, and also blocks the reptake...
Rilitin on the the other hand, also as Wellbutrin only blocks the reptake. Which, west wrote, Ritilin would be safer, because constant admistration of Amphetamine can cause dopamine and serotonin degrugulation. Even when taking a presibed dose, say 30mg daily, or 45 (current dose i'm on) but its a spansule, so it releases 22.5 on intake, and slowly releases the rest of the 22.5 in plasma levels.
Dextroamphetamine increases my mathematical skills, i see things that i dont usally see when i'm not on medication in math...and more logical thinking in general. But, still, i know it is the correct medication, the dose just needs to be matienced. I'll sit, and do math equations and read about nuclear science, at a slow level, but "learning" level, for hobby.
I believe i have more d2 receptors, because any dose, even 40mg staight itself, causes "mind stimualtion" but not "get up and do stuff" i can lay in bed and think about things of life, i've fallen asleep on amphetamine many times before.
So i'll leave it at that, but i also want to ask, Alprazolam with Dextoamphetamine is the most EFFECTIVE social anxiety combination there is.
Dexamyl (dextroamphetmaine 15mg/amobarbital 90mg) was given for social "inhibited" people, and also for depression, but it was removed because from what i read, it had no medical relevence.
Amobarbital is more old, and all around more sedating in alot aspects, Alprazolam only sedates certain parts of the brain that cause fear, and effects GABA diffrenly than the other benzodiapines. It is the "tri" benzodiapine. Secobarbital i believe was a "tri" barbiturate, but it much more sedating, and toxity is already been known for 50 years.
Anyways....i thought i would share this.
i enjoy writing what i think, and what i believe is true.
Peace>
rj
Posted by Racer on November 8, 2008, at 20:59:48
In reply to Re: A overall review on dextroampetamine, read...., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 8, 2008, at 10:34:39
Sorry, but there are several things in this I want to comment on:
>> Dextroamphetamine increases my mathematical skills,
No, your math skills were there, and are as good or bad off meds as on -- perhaps you are better able to concentrate on math, but the drug can't magically increase your skills. Your math skills are as good or as bad as they are, because YOU WORKED TO LEARN THEM. I think it's important to take credit for what we've accomplished, rather than giving credit away. I got very good grades in algebra, for instance -- yes, I had good teachers, but you know what? I got very good grades because I worked very hard to get them. (And, of course, because I happened to love algebra. Too bad I didn't love calculus, huh?)
>>because i've concluded low doses stimulate only to a certain extent of the brain, D2, not D3.
What are you basing this conclusion on?
Speaking of Ritalin, you wrote:
>>it suppressed emotions and just caused focus, it didnt really have the stimulation amphetamine does.I've said before, and I will say again here -- in setting my doses for stimulants, the main criteria is that I -- and others around me -- are aware of the benefit, but I do *not* feel stimulation. If I am feeling stimulation, I know that my dose is too high.
>>constant admistration of Amphetamine can cause dopamine and serotonin degrugulation.
I am assuming you mean "dysregulation," and that's correct. In fact, that's one of the warnings my doctor has given me -- he's concerned that at some point, if my catecholamines become too depleted from the stimulants and other meds I'm on, I might get his with the mother of all depressive episodes. It's a valid concern, although any medication requires a pretty complex risk/benefit analysis.
And finally:>>I believe i have more d2 receptors, because any dose, even 40mg staight itself, causes "mind stimualtion" but not "get up and do stuff" i can lay in bed and think about things of life, i've fallen asleep on amphetamine many times before.
I'm not sure how one would come to this conclusion. The "get up and do stuff" is behavioral, not biochemical. If you're lying in bed, thinking about "things of life," then you've chosen a behavior.
Just for the record, I only respond to your posts because I am concerned about you. I have seen a lot of change in you over the years -- much of it for the better. (In fact, I was thinking of you this evening in my car -- the CD I was playing has a song on it called "I'm Your No. 1 Fan." I looked for it on YouTube for you. No joy.) I worry that you think I'm criticizing you, rather than expressing well-meant, even affectionate, concern for you.
I can't remember -- have you ever seen a psychologist?
Posted by connor on November 9, 2008, at 19:54:05
In reply to Re: A overall review on dextroampetamine, read...., posted by rjlockhart04-08 on November 8, 2008, at 10:34:39
dextramphetamine is vyananse correct?
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 22:34:25
In reply to Re: A overall review on dextroampetamine, read...., posted by connor on November 9, 2008, at 19:54:05
> dextramphetamine is vyananse correct?
No, d-amphetamine is Dexedrine.
Vyvanse is lisdexamfetamine dimesylate, a sort of precursor of d-amphetamine, attached to lysine, an amino acid. It's designed to be released more slowly, which might lower the abuse potential.
I hope that helps.
This is the end of the thread.
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