Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 374412

Shown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

depersonalization help needed

Posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

by far the greatest annoyance caused by anxiety is depersonalization. it is very dreadful and unbearable at times. im am taking lexapro and im wondering if this is common with this drug and will i see an imporvment. ive been on lexapro for about two weeks now. any information of personal experience will be appreciated greatly. thank you very much for your time

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by SLS on August 5, 2004, at 21:21:00

In reply to depersonalization help needed, posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

> by far the greatest annoyance caused by anxiety is depersonalization. it is very dreadful and unbearable at times. im am taking lexapro and im wondering if this is common with this drug and will i see an imporvment. ive been on lexapro for about two weeks now. any information of personal experience will be appreciated greatly. thank you very much for your time


Quite a few people experience anxiety with Lexapro during the second or third weeks. It usually disappears.

Good luck.


- Scott

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by Camille Dumont on August 6, 2004, at 8:30:53

In reply to depersonalization help needed, posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

This is not meds advice but something I used to help with the depersonalization. When you feel it starting, grab something, it doesn't matter what, a book a pen, a chair, the desk ... just something hand squeeze it as hard as you can until the muscles in your hands start to ache. For some reason I found that this would stop my episodes from starting and keep me "grounded".

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by feelndwn on August 6, 2004, at 10:48:28

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed, posted by Camille Dumont on August 6, 2004, at 8:30:53

Get on a vitamin/mineral regime, get at least 2 liters of filtered water a day, eat right, and get in 30 minutes of adrenaline pumping exercise per day (such as flat out running, or as intense areobics as you can stand).
READ: Dr. Weil's 8 Weeks To Optimum Health.
Don't let your mind control you, you control your mind. I was admitted to a psych ward 3 weeks ago because jumping off of xanax cold turkey after taking 5mg/day for 9 years. I got out after 5 days and here I am weeks later after implementing an awesome vitamin/mineral, nutrition, & exercise routine that is actually pulling me out of my depersonalization and all sorts of other hellacious symptoms. The exercise is hard to do when your in this state, but if you can get your body and mind pumping enough (sort of like shocking it into reality) with all of the health benefits of an awesome lifestyle your going to win...hands down baby. And I was a 5150 a couple weeks ago. I have come leaps and bounds since then.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » Camille Dumont

Posted by Jasmineneroli on August 7, 2004, at 1:01:45

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed, posted by Camille Dumont on August 6, 2004, at 8:30:53

I completely agree with Camille's advice....the only way I can deal with attacks of depersonalization is to actually grab hold of something (in stores, I've actually hugged pillars/posts!). I too, feel grounded by this physical act. It's like pulling my mind back into my body, by touching something solid. Otherwise I feel like I'll "float away" forever or faint. Blinking my eyes tightly over and over sometimes also works.
Good luck with the Lexapro, hope this is just a transitory nuisance SE of the drug. For me, depersonalization is part of my anxiety disorder :(. I'm almost used to it!
Best wishes
Jas

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by qbsbrown on August 7, 2004, at 21:33:55

In reply to depersonalization help needed, posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

I can sympatize with you. I've had extremely bad depersonalization/derealization after a 8-10 hr break through panic attack. I was on 20 mgs of lexapro during most of this time. It did not touch my symptoms. To be honest, when i went off of it, i found some relief.
Although every individual is different, lexapro doesn't seem to work well for DP, more for depression. At least i found no help.
There is a great site for this, it's dpselfhelp.com. Great resources and people going through the same thing.
Polls on that site seem to note that Paxil and klonopin seem to work the best.
The two leading institutes on depersonalization are finding that some anti-seizure/mood stablizing meds might provide the best results, namely lamictal and abilify.
But check out that site, and i wish u luck.

Brian

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » lames jill

Posted by JahL on August 9, 2004, at 21:37:54

In reply to depersonalization help needed, posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

> by far the greatest annoyance caused by anxiety is depersonalization. it is very dreadful and unbearable at times. im am taking lexapro and im wondering if this is common with this drug and will i see an imporvment. ive been on lexapro for about two weeks now. any information of personal experience will be appreciated greatly. thank you very much for your time
>

Hi.

Brian mentioned Lamictal.

Here in the UK, the esteemed Maudsley Affective Disorders clinic is conducting a fairly large scale investigation into the treatment of depersonalisation/derealisation.

They are looking to determine the effectiveness of Lamictal or Lamictal + Prozac. I have met someone at the unit and I am told initial impressions are promising. I don't think that we're anywhere near a 'cure' as such but I can say w/o hesitation that Lamictal (600mg daily - long story) has significantly ameliorated the symptoms of derealisation for me.

SSRIs just worsen my depersonalistion. Those at the clinic unfortunately found this hard to believe (what would they know?) and tried to push Prozac on me, even though I had given it a very extensive trial previously, with very mixed results. We soon parted company.

Having said this, my depersonalisation has only ever *completely* disappeared when briefly euthymic on Prozac/Paroxetine/Citalopram. It was all downhill from there though. Confusing...

Anyway, best of luck,

Jah.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by Waki on August 10, 2004, at 6:50:35

In reply to depersonalization help needed, posted by lames jill on August 5, 2004, at 14:35:52

I encountered the anxiety and depersonalization issue.

The only thing i found was consistent, is that I was inconsistent with everyone elses successes.

A good p-doc will read your progress or lack there of and will change accordingly.

Ive come to the conclusion that all of our brain chemistry is so different that nothing will work the same for each of us.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by SLS on August 10, 2004, at 7:26:05

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » lames jill, posted by JahL on August 9, 2004, at 21:37:54


> SSRIs just worsen my depersonalistion.

I think I can understand how this might happen. Depersonalization might, in large part, be the result of chronic anxiety superimposed upon anhedonia. Prozac can produce both. The anxiety usually develops right away with Prozac. However, the anhedonia/apathy usually takes a few weeks or longer. The two together could make depersonalization worse, especially in the absence of an antidepressant/anxiolytic response.

Have you ever focused on ameliorating the chronic anxiety?


- Scott

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS

Posted by JahL on August 10, 2004, at 16:54:46

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed, posted by SLS on August 10, 2004, at 7:26:05

Hi Scott.

Hope this finds you better than the last time I spoke to you (a few times probably a couple of years ago - I don't expect you'd remember). ECT has well and truly brought me to my knees in the meantime.

Derealisation is actually the least of my problems. I experimented a great deal with hallucinogenics when self-medicating in my teens. I generally found the experiences to be pleasant and sometimes downright profound and so the surreal sensation of derealisation can be lived with.

Like yourself I suffer from early onset (age 7) Bipolar NOS (or are you II?), overlaid with profound, indomitable depression. I'm a lucky kinda guy so I also suffer from social phobia, GAD, severe agitation and the aforementioned derealisation.

I know you're particularly frustrated by cognitive retardation and boy can I empathise; my current working IQ is around 30-40 points down on my euthymic IQ. It's the single most frustrating aspect of my disorder.

Anyway, to yr post...


> > SSRIs just worsen my depersonalistion.
>
> I think I can understand how this might happen. Depersonalization might, in large part, be the result of chronic anxiety superimposed upon anhedonia.

Mmm. Certainly anhedonia and complete mood unreactivity are a central feature of my disorder. I am pathologically bored.

My anxiety is chronic and presents itself mostly as acute social phobia.

>Prozac can produce both.

I agree. I've tried (for the appropriate time period) around 15 antidepressants and without exception, they have all worsened my condition, which would encompass anxiety and anhedonia. Interestingly, most antidepressants I have taken have worsened the derealisation almost instantly, with some being worse offenders than others, whilst the extra depression, as you say, does not normally kick in for a few weeks.

>The anxiety usually develops right away with Prozac. However, the anhedonia/apathy usually takes a few weeks or longer. The two together could make depersonalization worse, especially in the absence of an antidepressant/anxiolytic response.

Mmm. As I say, speaking for myself, the depersonalisation appears well before any anxiety...

> Have you ever focused on ameliorating the chronic anxiety?

Yeah, as I say in a post elsewhere, Sulpiride has been pretty effective (no complete remission tho') where *everything* else (55 meds and counting...) has failed. It is truly a lifesaver since I cannot function and interact socially w/o it.

> - Scott

Sorry this this is so long. It's just nice to see a familiar 'face'. I don't see anyone else from 'way back' here.

Best,

J.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed

Posted by SLS on August 11, 2004, at 7:09:35

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS, posted by JahL on August 10, 2004, at 16:54:46

Hi J.

Nice to see you too!

> Hope this finds you better than the last time I spoke to you (a few times probably a couple of years ago - I don't expect you'd remember).

Of course I remember!

I am not in a real good place right now, but it is not excruciating.

ECT has well and truly brought me to my knees in the meantime.

How so?

> I know you're particularly frustrated by cognitive retardation and boy can I empathise; my current working IQ is around 30-40 points down on my euthymic IQ. It's the single most frustrating aspect of my disorder.

Me too. Actually, it is this point exactly that is weighing on me so heavily right now emotionally. It is nothing short of dementia, and it is tugging at me with suicidal ideation. My memory is profoundly impaired.

> > > SSRIs just worsen my depersonalistion.

> > I think I can understand how this might happen. Depersonalization might, in large part, be the result of chronic anxiety superimposed upon anhedonia.

> Mmm. Certainly anhedonia and complete mood unreactivity are a central feature of my disorder. I am pathologically bored.

Do you actually experience boredom? I don't like to brag (ha ha), but I am so vegetative, that I can't experience boredom. I am content to stare at a blank TV screen. I do experience boredom, however, when my depression begins to lift as with a transient response to medication. Boredom heralds a potential remission for me.

> My anxiety is chronic and presents itself mostly as acute social phobia.

Do you experience any anxiety outside of social situations? Perhaps it is such a constant with you, that you don't even recognize it.

> >Prozac can produce both. [anxiety + anhedonia/apathy]

> I agree. I've tried (for the appropriate time period) around 15 antidepressants and without exception, they have all worsened my condition, which would encompass anxiety and anhedonia. Interestingly, most antidepressants I have taken have worsened the derealisation almost instantly, with some being worse offenders than others, whilst the extra depression, as you say, does not normally kick in for a few weeks.

Out of curiosity, which would you identify as being the worst offenders?

Does it help to titrate the dosage very gradually?

> >The anxiety usually develops right away with Prozac. However, the anhedonia/apathy usually takes a few weeks or longer. The two together could make depersonalization worse, especially in the absence of an antidepressant/anxiolytic response.

> Mmm. As I say, speaking for myself, the depersonalisation appears well before any anxiety...

Maybe serotonin reuptake inhibition is clinically toxic for you. Have you ever tried trimipramine or Remeron? What about Provigil or adrafinil? Is Wellbutrin anxiogenic for you? You might consider adding a stimulant like Adderall. It can actually help to promote social confidence and reduce anxiety. I guess you've probably visited these things already.

I am looking into a few different things. I had a transient antidepressant response to memantine. Because of this, I have an interest in riluzole (Rilutek). The other thing I got my doctor interested in is mifepristone. It is a potent cortisol receptor antagonist. Right now, though, I am waiting for the newly-approved Cymbalta (duloxetine) to reach the pharmacy shelves. It is a SNRI with high affinity for both transporters, and is less biased towards serotonin than Effexor.

> > Have you ever focused on ameliorating the chronic anxiety?

> Yeah, as I say in a post elsewhere, Sulpiride has been pretty effective (no complete remission tho') where *everything* else (55 meds and counting...) has failed. It is truly a lifesaver since I cannot function and interact socially w/o it.

Some people get a pro-social/antidepressant kick from adding Abilify into the mix.

> Sorry this this is so long. It's just nice to see a familiar 'face'. I don't see anyone else from 'way back' here.

Time flies! It really doesn't seem so long since you were here last. Ouch.

:-)

I hope there is something you can learn from the new folks here that can help pull things together for you. They're a smart bunch (as always).


- Scott

 

Re: other options » SLS

Posted by JahL on August 11, 2004, at 11:50:57

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed, posted by SLS on August 11, 2004, at 7:09:35

Hi Scott.

Very interesting post (as usual).

I'm going to try and address it properly when I've woken up. It's 5 p.m. here - my usual waking up time these days.

However I just wanted to answer one paragraph now.

I am actually trialing Memantine right now. Like yourself, I also experienced a mild improvement upon starting Memantine which has sadly faded after a couple of weeks. These transient responses are common to most drugs for me. It's as if my brain objects to the improvement and swiftly 'corrects' itself. Still, every month or two I get a couple of days to sort out the bills, tidy the house etc.

> I am looking into a few different things. I had a transient antidepressant response to memantine. Because of this, I have an interest in riluzole (Rilutek).

I'm especially excited by this one. Obviously Lamictal me helps and I'm hoping Riluzole, with its posited anti-glutaminergic properties, may also assist. Its use in the UK is heavily restricted and its online cost is prohibitive; around $700 per tablet! So a no-go for now. I believe the NIMH is conducting trials as we speak.

>The other thing I got my doctor interested in is mifepristone. It is a potent cortisol receptor antagonist.

Yeah. Big time. My younger bro', also suufering from Bipolar, is actively trying to get his hands on this one. Here in the UK it can only be prescribed in an abortion clinic. Probably helps if you're a lady. He sourced it online but again, it's v. expensive - about $150 per tab and you need at least a week's supply.

He's actually applied for inclusion in the NIMH study. Mifepristone is also being studied in Newcastle, England. My bruv is seeking to be treated as an outpatient there too.

If he makes it over to The States, I'll give you all due warning :)

S'funny that the three drugs next on yr list are also next on mine. Great minds and all that...

>Right now, though, I am waiting for the newly-approved Cymbalta (duloxetine) to reach the pharmacy shelves. It is a SNRI with high affinity for both transporters, and is less biased towards serotonin than Effexor.

Effexor messed me up more than any other single agent. It's fair to say that it, together with ECT (more later), is responsible for the absolute direness of my situation. No more ADs for me!

J.

(one day I'll master the art of sending short messages...)

 

Re: Riluzole

Posted by JahL on August 11, 2004, at 13:47:42

In reply to Re: other options » SLS, posted by JahL on August 11, 2004, at 11:50:57

> I'm especially excited by this one. Obviously Lamictal me helps and I'm hoping Riluzole, with its posited anti-glutaminergic properties, may also assist. Its use in the UK is heavily restricted and its online cost is prohibitive; around $700 per tablet!

Tell a lie, it transpires that it is Emend - ostensibly a chemo drug - that costs so much.

We've just found Riluzole online for about $400 for a month's supply. Should my 'luck' continue (I'm a professional Gambler by default), that's affordable and a very real proposition. I'll talk to my pdoc and then maybe go for it. Will keep you posted...

J.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS

Posted by JahL on August 11, 2004, at 16:16:39

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed, posted by SLS on August 11, 2004, at 7:09:35

Me again :)

> > ECT has well and truly brought me to my knees in the meantime.
>
> How so?

I tried it as a last resort the year previous. After 5 or 6 treatments there was clear improvement. This did not stick however and by treatment 14 I had become acutely suicidal. It may have had something to do with the requirement to stop Lamictal pre-ECT. I cannot live w/o it and eventually had to up the dose to 600mg.

The general anaethetic was orgasmic - you learn to anticipate the intense rush and ride it. The pain ceases instantly, only it gave me eczema and my lovely long locks began to fall out. Nice. Still haven't returned to previous baseline.

> It is nothing short of dementia, and it is tugging at me with suicidal ideation. My memory is profoundly impaired.

One week after I finished ECT a report came out in The English Journal of Psychiatry. It stated that there was an indisputable link btwn ECT and memory loss. Apparently about a third of patients experience short term memory impairment, whilst another third suffer from more severe, long term memory loss. I'm the latter. I don't even remember buying the house I moved into a year ago!

Dementia is about right. It's humiliating at times, I'm sure you'll agree.

> Do you actually experience boredom? I don't like to brag (ha ha), but I am so vegetative, that I can't experience boredom. I am content to stare at a blank TV screen. I do experience boredom, however, when my depression begins to lift as with a transient response to medication. Boredom heralds a potential remission for me.

I hear you. I call it 'beyond boredom'. There's no interest to lack in the first place. Just a sparse existence.

I too can tell when a better spell is on the way. Like you, boredom actually becomes something one can experience. The best indicator for me is the return of my explosive temper - normally crushed by this depressive miasma.

> Do you experience any anxiety outside of social situations? Perhaps it is such a constant with you, that you don't even recognize it.

It is v. constant but the socially phobic element is at the forefront.

> Out of curiosity, which would you identify as being the worst offenders?

Funnily enough, perhaps the two you mention; Remeron followed by Trimipramine (surprisingly). Effexor was nasty too.

> Does it help to titrate the dosage very gradually?

Not particularly. These days I'm fairly gung-ho and ramp it up as fast as my body (& mind) will allow.

> Maybe serotonin reuptake inhibition is clinically toxic for you.

I think maybe you are right.

> What about Provigil or adrafinil?

Tried them both in the days of AndrewB. Nothing either way.

> Is Wellbutrin anxiogenic for you?

No effect.

> You might consider adding a stimulant like Adderall. It can actually help to promote social confidence and reduce anxiety. I guess you've probably visited these things already.

Yup. Had to travel to the States but I managed to try a variety of stimulants. Just made me more agitated.

> Some people get a pro-social/antidepressant kick from adding Abilify into the mix.

Now there's a strange one. I first tried Abilify last year. Within days I thought I had found my 'miracle drug'. A solid, consistent 60% or so improvement. Unfortunately I had to stop because of acute constipation (I went once in a month. Ouch. Ugh.), whilst the akathesia was also unpleasant.

I eventually found a suitable laxative but second time round the Abilify *just didn't work*. At all. It was extremely dispiriting and I think it was then that I decided for good that I *will* 'catch the bus' once I've exhausted the remaining options. This existence is too demeaning for a proud guy like me.

Can I ask if you've tried Abilify yet? It was wonderful in terms of cognitive function...

What about Pramipexole? It dampened the suicidal ideation a little for me but I couldn't withstand the nausea - I also have an eating disorder. However it's made a significant difference to my bruv's quality of life, particularly in terms of motivation.

If you're interested, we've also tried or are trying the dopamine agonists Ropinirole, Trivestal and Almirid. Happy to share my experiences.

> I hope there is something you can learn from the new folks here that can help pull things together for you. They're a smart bunch (as always).

Thanks. It's the general intelligence of the Babble population that draws me back here. Never ever posted on another board.

Keep throwing these ideas at us Scott. Who knows - maybe we can help you outta yr own situation too.

Best wishes,

J.

Sorry - another longie. Last one. Been away too long. Still, I think I've said most of what needs saying. Besides, it can be cathartic, especially when you're confiding in someone you feel you have some kind of affinity with. You know?

 

Re: familiar face from way back

Posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2004, at 22:57:01

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS, posted by JahL on August 10, 2004, at 16:54:46

> Sorry this this is so long. It's just nice to see a familiar 'face'. I don't see anyone else from 'way back' here.

FYI, there's a board just for old-timers now, Psycho-Babble 2000. :-)

Bob

 

Re: familiar face from way back

Posted by crazychickuk on August 12, 2004, at 4:58:51

In reply to Re: familiar face from way back, posted by Dr. Bob on August 11, 2004, at 22:57:01

i'm here i been here for years.... i found this site december 1999 :-)

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » JahL

Posted by SLS on August 12, 2004, at 7:04:53

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS, posted by JahL on August 11, 2004, at 16:16:39

> Me again :)

Me too :-)

It is remarkable how many similarities there are between our cases. Even your experiences of depersonalization and social anxiety are all too familiar to me.

> > > ECT has well and truly brought me to my knees in the meantime.

> > How so?

> I tried it as a last resort the year previous. After 5 or 6 treatments there was clear improvement.

I experienced a clear improvement after my fifth treatment, all of them being unilateral left. It didn't stick either. It only lasted for a fraction of one day.

> This did not stick however and by treatment 14 I had become acutely suicidal. It may have had something to do with the requirement to stop Lamictal pre-ECT. I cannot live w/o it and eventually had to up the dose to 600mg.

After a few more treatments without improvement, we switched over to bilateral. I had 15 treatments total. Nothing. Of course, the bilateral treatments pretty much kicked my ass. I felt really weird for at least a month. I don't like to think about the possible irreversible cognitive effects I might have suffered. It would be difficult to differentiate them from the effects of the depression now anyway.

> The general anaethetic was orgasmic - you learn to anticipate the intense rush and ride it. The pain ceases instantly,...

I know. What a pathetic comment that is on the quality of our lives.

> > It is nothing short of dementia, and it is tugging at me with suicidal ideation. My memory is profoundly impaired.

> One week after I finished ECT a report came out in The English Journal of Psychiatry. It stated that there was an indisputable link btwn ECT and memory loss.

When was this?

> Apparently about a third of patients experience short term memory impairment, whilst another third suffer from more severe, long term memory loss. I'm the latter. I don't even remember buying the house I moved into a year ago!

Are you able to work?

> Dementia is about right. It's humiliating at times, I'm sure you'll agree.

It is a brutal and unrelenting assault upon one's dignity.

> I too can tell when a better spell is on the way. Like you, boredom actually becomes something one can experience. The best indicator for me is the return of my explosive temper - normally crushed by this depressive miasma.

I know about the anger. A strong ego is difficult to control when you have to learn how to manage it all over again.

> Can I ask if you've tried Abilify yet? It was wonderful in terms of cognitive function...

I currently take 10mg. I too experienced a rather robust antidepressant effect initially. After a week or so, it faded, but I feel it might still be helping a little. It's hard to tell, and I haven't tried discontinuing it in over a year. I think it helps keep me from reaching the catastrophic and suicidal state of mind that sometimes creeps up on me.

Before I forget, Provigil produced an antidepressant effect within an hour after the first dose, but faded quickly. Thereafter, it made me feel significantly worse. My initial thought was that it would have made a good augmentor of MAOIs. I tried it again a few years later, but the end result was the same.

> What about Pramipexole? It dampened the suicidal ideation a little for me but I couldn't withstand the nausea - I also have an eating disorder. However it's made a significant difference to my bruv's quality of life, particularly in terms of motivation.

Pardon my ignorance, what is a "bruv"?

> If you're interested, we've also tried or are trying the dopamine agonists Ropinirole, Trivestal and Almirid. Happy to share my experiences.

Please do. I once tried bromocriptine. I experienced about three days of improvement beginning on the second day of treatment. Nothing thereafter.

> > I hope there is something you can learn from the new folks here that can help pull things together for you. They're a smart bunch (as always).

> Thanks. It's the general intelligence of the Babble population that draws me back here. Never ever posted on another board.

> Keep throwing these ideas at us Scott. Who knows - maybe we can help you outta yr own situation too.

I hope so. I am not in a real good place right now. Not at all. It could be worse, though. (It sometimes helps to say that).

> Best wishes,

Ditto.


- Scott

 

Re: familiar face from way back » crazychickuk

Posted by JahL on August 17, 2004, at 19:07:47

In reply to Re: familiar face from way back, posted by crazychickuk on August 12, 2004, at 4:58:51

> i'm here i been here for years.... i found this site december 1999 :-)

Sorry CCUK.

I had a long course of ECT last year. I've lost hole chunks of my memory, probably for good. Your name does ring a bell.

I think I remember Scott because there are some strong parallels btwn our cases. I can also vividly remember Scott's highly technical exchanges with some other remarkably intelligent bods here at the time. I really gave me a taste for the whole psychopharmacology thang.

I'm glad to see that a few of us have stuck around.

I'm UK also; we'll have to slate the state of British psychiatry sometime ;-)

Best,

J.

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS

Posted by JahL on August 17, 2004, at 21:32:50

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » JahL, posted by SLS on August 12, 2004, at 7:04:53

HI Scott.


> Of course, the bilateral treatments pretty much kicked my ass. I felt really weird for at least a month. I don't like to think about the possible irreversible cognitive effects I might have suffered. It would be difficult to differentiate them from the effects of the depression now anyway.

Yeah, it's a concern of mine too. I'm convinced that high dose Effexor is responsible for some permanent damage. As for ECT...all I know is that it's floored me.

> > The general anaethetic was orgasmic - you learn to anticipate the intense rush and ride it. The pain ceases instantly,...
>
> I know. What a pathetic comment that is on the quality of our lives.

...and sometimes *that* first joint of the day is also its highlight for me. It is sad, isn't it?

> > One week after I finished ECT a report came out in The English Journal of Psychiatry. It stated that there was an indisputable link btwn ECT and memory loss.
>
> When was this?

Around April/May of last year. I'll try and dig it out for you.

> Are you able to work?

Not properly, no. Like many on this board, it is inconceivable that I could perform a 'normal' 9-5 job. Way too suicidal, way too cognitively impaired. I think you'll probably understand.

I'm lucky, because despite my illness, I've always found it relatively easy to make money. Aside for concern over the welfare of my family, money is the one thing that motivates me. As I see it, if I can't be at all happy, then at least I can try and be comfortable.

I now make a pretty good living as a professional gambler, betting mostly on golf tournaments over the Net. It only involves sitting in front of the PC for a few hours a week and then watching a bit of golf on the weekend. Not too taxing and so I can cope. Of course being Bipolar, I get a kick out of gambling anyway ;-)

Having said all of this, it's not a profession I would recommend as regards stress (a losing streak can be very painful...)

How about you? Can you support yourself? You sound profoundly depressed...can you even contemplate working?

> I know about the anger. A strong ego is difficult to control when you have to learn how to manage it all over again.

Yeah. I become particularly angry when people don't show me the respect I afford others. There are certain situations I have to avoid entirely because trouble would be almost inevitable.

Interestingly enough, the temper was the one 'flaw' that remained after I became euthymic on Prozac. Probably something I'll have to work on. As you say, maybe you actually have to learn how to control the ego again (it was actually the first time for me - I've never really felt normal)

One of the reasons I leave this board for long periods is that I find it all too easy to become embroiled in arguments and ultimately vendettas with the odd poster here and there. I'm easy to wind up I guess. I have no problem admitting that Social Phobia can give my thinking a paranoid edge now and then. Being rather proud probably doesn't help either.

> > Can I ask if you've tried Abilify yet? ...
>
> I currently take 10mg. I too experienced a rather robust antidepressant effect initially. After a week or so, it faded, but I feel it might still be helping a little. It's hard to tell...

You've actually inspired me to give it one last go; I've spent nearly $1000 on the tablets after all (god save the NHS...ack). I've already had the minor initial improvement - now gone (does this sound all too familiar?) - and now I'm hoping for that more robust AD effect. It's day four today and I'm taking about 15mg. If my damaged memory serves me correctly, it took about a week to kick in last time. Here's hoping...

> Pardon my ignorance, what is a "bruv"?

Sorry, it's kinda slang for brother. It turns out that you've actually spoke to my younger brother over email. I introduced him to this site before I went in for ECT and he hooked up with you soon after. Obviously he has good taste in people ;-) I won't give his name, but he says Hello.

*If you need any help with Amineptine Scott, let me know*

>
> > If you're interested, we've also tried or are trying the dopamine agonists Ropinirole, Trivestal and Almirid. Happy to share my experiences.
>
> Please do. I once tried bromocriptine. I experienced about three days of improvement beginning on the second day of treatment. Nothing thereafter.

Sounds familiar. I've never been too interested in Bromocriptine, for some reason I've always seen it as a rather 'dirty' drug. Not sure why.

I tried Ropinirole a few months back. It didn't do a great deal other than improve my currently non-existent appetite. Tho' I experienced the odd sleep attack to begin with, there were no real side effects either.

My 'bruv' is currently switching from Pramipexole - which helps significantly but has turned him into a 60 a day compulsive smoker overnight and induces the odd mini panic attack - to Trivestal. So far so good; it seems that Trivestal has multiple modes of action and so has the potential to maybe be more effective.

We've got Almirid in reserve, though I'm not particularly excited by the prospect of another D agonist.

Can I ask what your opinions are of opioids as a treatment of last resort?

I have to say that aside from the three candidates we mentioned earlier, opiates, specifically Vicodin (no anti-opiate diatribes anybody please), are of the greatest interest to me. I am fully aware of the inherent dangers of opioids, but I think not treating acute suicidal feelings is even riskier (at least in my case)

I am familiar with a couple of people Stateside who both take low-dose Vicodin. Neither seems to have developed any particular tolerance over the years. Are you familiar with the work on an Oxycontin/Naltrexone (I think?) combination, thought not to promote tolerance?

As you might know, I have taken low-dose Methadone for a few years now, w/o any sign of tolerance. The benefits - improvements in cognition and energy - are not that substantial but they are *consistent*. It's the Meth connection that is driving me towards a visit to a broad-minded Stateside pdoc...

Have you ever considered anything along these lines? Is this pushing the envelope too far in your case?

> I am not in a real good place right now. Not at all.

I can really empathize. I never thought it would come to this.

> It could be worse, though. (It sometimes helps to say that).

Could be a whole lot better though. I guess we got to keep trying every feasible drug we can lay our hands on. I'd like to think that your experiences offer me some insight into my own condition, such are the strong parallels btwn our respective disorders.

Again, if you're still curious about Amineptine, let me know.

Take care mate,

J.

(phew, another longie!)

 

Re: depersonalization help needed » JahL

Posted by SLS on August 20, 2004, at 8:39:01

In reply to Re: depersonalization help needed » SLS, posted by JahL on August 17, 2004, at 21:32:50

Hi JahL.

Sorry for not responding sooner. I am easily overwhelmed by the volume of posts, and only read 4-5 a day.

> > Of course, the bilateral treatments pretty much kicked my ass. I felt really weird for at least a month.

Exactly. Me too. I could hardly navigate my way around roads that I had known for decades.

> I don't like to think about the possible irreversible cognitive effects I might have suffered. It would be difficult to differentiate them from the effects of the depression now anyway.

I keep telling myself exactly the same thing.

> > Are you able to work?

> Not properly, no. Like many on this board, it is inconceivable that I could perform a 'normal' 9-5 job. Way too suicidal, way too cognitively impaired. I think you'll probably understand.

Cognitive impairment is really the only thing keeping me from work. The mood and energy thing, I can work around. When I first entered the NIMH research program, I told them that I didn't give a S if they couldn't do anything for the anhedonia and lack of motivation/interest, as long as they could get me to read, learn, and remember. They failed, obviously. But they did bless me with the assertion that I was one of the worst cases they had come across. It was nice that they deemed my attempts to cope with the illness "heroic", but that is worth only so much when the condition continues indefinitely.

> I now make a pretty good living as a professional gambler,

You got guts.

> How about you? Can you support yourself? You sound profoundly depressed...can you even contemplate working?

LOL

Fortunately, I made enough money as I struggled in my 20s as a car salesman to receive an adequate government disability check. I also get a rental subsidy. I am very fortunate. I really HATE being a burden on the public. HATE. I hope I can eventually give back in some way.

> > I know about the anger. A strong ego is difficult to control when you have to learn how to manage it all over again.

> Yeah. I become particularly angry when people don't show me the respect I afford others.

Because my cognitive impairments sometimes become so apparant during conversations, I get treated like I'm stupid. It is degrading and infuriating. If they only knew... When I was well, I could kick some ass - big time.

> There are certain situations I have to avoid entirely because trouble would be almost inevitable.

For me, I try to avoid situations that would demoralize me. I am too depressed to get angry. I am disgracefully passive.

> Interestingly enough, the temper was the one 'flaw' that remained after I became euthymic on Prozac. Probably something I'll have to work on.

It comes with practice.

> One of the reasons I leave this board for long periods is that I find it all too easy to become embroiled in arguments and ultimately vendettas with the odd poster here and there.

I've learned a bit of self-control and perspective, but I am far from perfect - obviously.

> > Pardon my ignorance, what is a "bruv"?

> Sorry, it's kinda slang for brother.

:-)

> It turns out that you've actually spoke to my younger brother over email. I introduced him to this site before I went in for ECT and he hooked up with you soon after. Obviously he has good taste in people ;-) I won't give his name, but he says Hello.

I vaguely remember the correspondence. I probably have his e-mail in my archives. You can return the sentiments to him.

> > > If you're interested, we've also tried or are trying the dopamine agonists Ropinirole, Trivestal and Almirid. Happy to share my experiences.

> > Please do. I once tried bromocriptine. I experienced about three days of improvement beginning on the second day of treatment. Nothing thereafter.

> Sounds familiar. I've never been too interested in Bromocriptine, for some reason I've always seen it as a rather 'dirty' drug. Not sure why.

It is dirty. I forget all the details, but I would avoid it.

> I tried Ropinirole a few months back. It didn't do a great deal other than improve my currently non-existent appetite. Tho' I experienced the odd sleep attack to begin with, there were no real side effects either.

Did the sleep attacks subside?

> it seems that Trivestal has multiple modes of action and so has the potential to maybe be more effective.

> We've got Almirid in reserve, though I'm not particularly excited by the prospect of another D agonist.

I am not familiar with these two drugs. What are their generic names?

> Can I ask what your opinions are of opioids as a treatment of last resort?

They can be problematic as far as dosing is concerned because of the short half-lives (oxycodone) or route of administration (buprenorphine). I wouldn't hesitate to try it. I'm sure you are aware of the physiological dependence that develops. Withdrawal probably isn't a whole lot of fun, but if it works, there's no need to withdraw until you find a better alternative, right? I tried Vicoden on two occasions with no positive results. I think there is still a place on my list for opioids. Some people respond well to tramadol. It is also a 5-HT reuptake inhibitor. That's definitely on my list. These things are probably band-aids, but if they stop the bleeding, what does it matter?

> I am familiar with a couple of people Stateside who both take low-dose Vicodin. Neither seems to have developed any particular tolerance over the years. Are you familiar with the work on an Oxycontin/Naltrexone (I think?) combination, thought not to promote tolerance?

That sounds *very* interesting. As an aside, there was considerable interest here a few years ago about using naltrexone as an augmentor of antidepressants (without an opioid). A guy named Wayne reported a robust response when it was added to an SSRI.

What about memantine? It's anti-tolerance effect for opioids has been reported, but who knows how valid they are?

> As you might know, I have taken low-dose Methadone for a few years now, w/o any sign of tolerance. The benefits - improvements in cognition and energy - are not that substantial but they are *consistent*. It's the Meth connection that is driving me towards a visit to a broad-minded Stateside pdoc...

Maybe you can get a referral from Dr. Bodkin at McLean Hospital in Belmont Massachusettes.

Write me at:

sl.schofield at att dot net


- Scott


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