![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jason911 on February 21, 2002, at 20:38:57
I went to my pdoc and told him about my thoughts and how to cure myself :) I'm sure he felt insulted - the patient telling the doctor what my solution is, heh heh. I wanted to word everything so perfect to get him to prescribe Eldepyl and 2mg Klono for anxiety attacks. He just wasn't buying into the whole deprenyl and dopamine connection thing. I am a little pissed. Because I think that is EXACTLY what Eldepryl does; work on dopamine. Anyway, he thought (after I told him I didn't think the Wellbutrin was working) I should up my dosage. I am now taking 3 75mg tabs in the morning and another 3 at noon. So now I'm up to 450mg per day. It's been 8 days and I think that it is actually starting to work mood-wise. He said that the .5mg clonazepam he previously prescribed in the evening was to not only help get me to sleep, but to help with my anxiety which I had previously mentioned only briefly the trip before. He agreed that it was indeed too low. Just like I predicted he's got me on 2mg/day. This time I bought brand name Klonopin too. He said to take one in the morning and one at night. He also says it takes time for the Klonopin to build up in your body to reach it's peak effectiveness. Well I did as he said...for 4 days and wan't impressed. My anxiety attacks have actually gotten a little worse. So anyway, like I always do, I think I have a better solution. Past 4 days I've been taking 2mg at one time at noon. I begin to feel quite good and I feel a balance with my mood and anxiety now but wears off my 6 or so. So I think I still need more klonopin. I actually feel happy too for a few hours after I take the 2mg at once. I wish it would build up fast (the Klonopin) and get me anxiety free. One weird thing though is that when I lay in bed (I have no problem getting to sleep BTW) if I look to my extreme left or right I begin to see what each eye sees at once! So for instance when I look at my clock it momentarily seems fine but after a few seconds the bright red digits slowly creep away from each other. It's like it multiplies. I think it's pretty cool. Straight on vision is fine though. I left a message with him tonight and he'll be talking to me in the morning about whether or not to increase the dosage. Also, I ordered 50 5mg Jumex (deprenyl) tabs for $47 last night, heh heh. I still think I'm right. It'll get here in three weeks or so. I'll let you guys know how that pans out. I'm getting the impression that selegiline plus benzos actually benefit from each other and leaves you feeling great. Everybody reply and tell me if I'm going the wrong way or something, because I also think the Wellbutrin with deprenyl won't hurt. I plan on taking the Jumex pills 5mg/day for 10 days, and then 5mg every other day for maintenance. Plus it will make the pills last for 3 months. And if this stuff works that's one hell of a deal for $47 (S&H included). I'll just keep reordering and taking the other meds the doctor prescribes. I'm pretty sure he'll up my Klono dosage.
Posted by Ritch on February 22, 2002, at 10:27:13
In reply to WELL HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED...., posted by Jason911 on February 21, 2002, at 20:38:57
Jason,
Be careful. Your Wellbutrin at 450mg is pretty much the max dose anybody should ever take. Adding the selegiline could potentiate the Wellbutrin's cardiovascular effects and lower the seizure threshold excessively. Have you been checking your blood pressure and heart rate since your WB has been upped? BTW, Selegeline breaks down to methamphetamine when it is metabolized. So you are looking at high-dose bupropion and meth mixed together--sounds a little risky.
Mitch
Posted by Elizabeth on February 22, 2002, at 13:01:49
In reply to WELL HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED...., posted by Jason911 on February 21, 2002, at 20:38:57
Hi. Here's the best information I have that might apply to your situation.
At higher doses, selegiline i a nonselective MAOI. At lower doses, I'm not sure it will do much for you, although it's worth trying.
The MAO-B isoenzyme acts preferentially on dopamine, as you surmised; and selegiline is a MAO-B inhibitor at low doses (and becomes nonselective at higher doses). In contrast, nobody really knows what Wellbutrin does, although it's pretty well known that Wellbutrin exacerbates anxiety.
> My anxiety attacks have actually gotten a little worse.
That could easily be from the increased Wellbutrin. Ritch also has a good point; if you're raising the WB, you might want to wait on the selegiline, or vice versa. Selegiline and its active metabolites (l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine) can certainly have sympathomimetic effects. Monitoring your blood pressure and heart rate seems warranted.
The seizure risk is not so much of a concern; selegiline actually has been found to have marked anticonvulsant effects (this has been studied in lab animals using pentylenetetrazole-induced seizures).
> Past 4 days I've been taking 2mg at one time at noon. I begin to feel quite good and I feel a balance with my mood and anxiety now but wears off my 6 or so.
That's odd. I've found that Klonopin lasts a good 8 hours, at least. (Or do you mean 6 am?)
> So I think I still need more klonopin.
Or maybe you need to divide the dose more? For example, 0.5 in the morning, 0.5 in the afternoon, 1 at bedtime. I found 4 mg/day (1 morning, 1 afternoon, 2 bedtime) to be optimal for me when I was taking it.
The vision thing is weird and could be caused by the Wellbutrin. That's just a guess, of course.
> I'm getting the impression that selegiline plus benzos actually benefit from each other and leaves you feeling great.
I'd expect them to complement one another, with the benzos alleviating the jitters from selegiline. Anyway, low-dose selegiline (5-10 mg) might well be of help to you, although IIRC there's much more evidence for high-dose selegiline (in depression, at least).
> Everybody reply and tell me if I'm going the wrong way or something, because I also think the Wellbutrin with deprenyl won't hurt.
The cardiovascular risk would be my main concern. Serotonin syndrome isn't a problem (as it can be with other ADs -- it even occurs occasionally with low-dose selegiline, I think); one thing that is known about Wellbutrin's mechanism of action is that it's not a serotonergic drug.
I'll be interested to hear how the selegiline works for you. I never tried taking a low dose, although I did once try a high dose (too jittery).
-elizabeth
Posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 15:38:36
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by Elizabeth on February 22, 2002, at 13:01:49
I basically, think the Wellbutrin is working, but at a dose that causes anxiety! All this while I'm on Klonopin for anxiety. I think I need Deprenyl, or something other than an SSRI, that can improve my mood and not interfere with anxiety. I got word last night that he wanted me to take 1mg in the morning .5mg at noon and 1mg before bed. Is it best to separate them??? Because I only get the effect on at least 2mg at once! This pisses me off. He increases Wellbutrin, and he is so adament about the fact that that is THE drig of choice when it comes to Dopamine-related depression. I hate Wellbutrin because my anxiety is back up even though I'm feeling better, basically due to the dopaminergic action (what ever it is), I need something do help the dopamine (I think the lwo dose (5mg) deprenyl would give a nice pick-me-up along with the relaxation of the Klonopin (which I want raised). It seems I am going towards the category of treatmen-resistant. I always need a large amount to get whatever I'm taking to work. Anyway, talk back guys, love to hear from you! -Jason911
> Hi. Here's the best information I have that might apply to your situation.
>
> At higher doses, selegiline i a nonselective MAOI. At lower doses, I'm not sure it will do much for you, although it's worth trying.
>
> The MAO-B isoenzyme acts preferentially on dopamine, as you surmised; and selegiline is a MAO-B inhibitor at low doses (and becomes nonselective at higher doses). In contrast, nobody really knows what Wellbutrin does, although it's pretty well known that Wellbutrin exacerbates anxiety.
>
> > My anxiety attacks have actually gotten a little worse.
>
> That could easily be from the increased Wellbutrin. Ritch also has a good point; if you're raising the WB, you might want to wait on the selegiline, or vice versa. Selegiline and its active metabolites (l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine) can certainly have sympathomimetic effects. Monitoring your blood pressure and heart rate seems warranted.
>
> The seizure risk is not so much of a concern; selegiline actually has been found to have marked anticonvulsant effects (this has been studied in lab animals using pentylenetetrazole-induced seizures).
>
> > Past 4 days I've been taking 2mg at one time at noon. I begin to feel quite good and I feel a balance with my mood and anxiety now but wears off my 6 or so.
>
> That's odd. I've found that Klonopin lasts a good 8 hours, at least. (Or do you mean 6 am?)
>
> > So I think I still need more klonopin.
>
> Or maybe you need to divide the dose more? For example, 0.5 in the morning, 0.5 in the afternoon, 1 at bedtime. I found 4 mg/day (1 morning, 1 afternoon, 2 bedtime) to be optimal for me when I was taking it.
>
> The vision thing is weird and could be caused by the Wellbutrin. That's just a guess, of course.
>
> > I'm getting the impression that selegiline plus benzos actually benefit from each other and leaves you feeling great.
>
> I'd expect them to complement one another, with the benzos alleviating the jitters from selegiline. Anyway, low-dose selegiline (5-10 mg) might well be of help to you, although IIRC there's much more evidence for high-dose selegiline (in depression, at least).
>
> > Everybody reply and tell me if I'm going the wrong way or something, because I also think the Wellbutrin with deprenyl won't hurt.
>
> The cardiovascular risk would be my main concern. Serotonin syndrome isn't a problem (as it can be with other ADs -- it even occurs occasionally with low-dose selegiline, I think); one thing that is known about Wellbutrin's mechanism of action is that it's not a serotonergic drug.
>
> I'll be interested to hear how the selegiline works for you. I never tried taking a low dose, although I did once try a high dose (too jittery).
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by JohnX2 on February 22, 2002, at 22:44:44
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff, posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 15:38:36
Hi Jason911 (sounds like a tv show),A lot of people report that Wellbutrin feels
like amphetamines when it kicks in. This is a dopaminergic
buzz. This is certainly the feeling that I got when it worked
for me. How long have you been on Wellbutrin?
You need to wait for upto 4 weeks for the medicine to
take effect. This is of course how antidepressants work. Deprenyl may feel
better quicker, but Wellbutrin may be a better soultion long run.
Anways, when the Wellbutrin works, you will feel a light bulb turn
on. In the mean time you may feel more energetic and less depressed
(and more anxious). This is the noradrenaline reuptake mechanism.
Over time the anxiety should wear down. This is the nature of antidepressants.
You will have side effects at first, and then the goodies come later.
Bummer. In the animal studies of Wellbutrin, it was found that the
principal metabolites did elicit behavior consistent with dopaminergic
mechanisms. Also, there was a net decrease in anxiety for those that
elicited a response (I read a big long gory technical paper on the medicine).
I've tried both Wellbutrin and Deprynl. I found that Wellbutrin long run
was better for my anxiety and I didn't have to watch my diet for tyramine.good luck,
John> I basically, think the Wellbutrin is working, but at a dose that causes anxiety! All this while I'm on Klonopin for anxiety. I think I need Deprenyl, or something other than an SSRI, that can improve my mood and not interfere with anxiety. I got word last night that he wanted me to take 1mg in the morning .5mg at noon and 1mg before bed. Is it best to separate them??? Because I only get the effect on at least 2mg at once! This pisses me off. He increases Wellbutrin, and he is so adament about the fact that that is THE drig of choice when it comes to Dopamine-related depression. I hate Wellbutrin because my anxiety is back up even though I'm feeling better, basically due to the dopaminergic action (what ever it is), I need something do help the dopamine (I think the lwo dose (5mg) deprenyl would give a nice pick-me-up along with the relaxation of the Klonopin (which I want raised). It seems I am going towards the category of treatmen-resistant. I always need a large amount to get whatever I'm taking to work. Anyway, talk back guys, love to hear from you! -Jason911
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi. Here's the best information I have that might apply to your situation.
> >
> > At higher doses, selegiline i a nonselective MAOI. At lower doses, I'm not sure it will do much for you, although it's worth trying.
> >
> > The MAO-B isoenzyme acts preferentially on dopamine, as you surmised; and selegiline is a MAO-B inhibitor at low doses (and becomes nonselective at higher doses). In contrast, nobody really knows what Wellbutrin does, although it's pretty well known that Wellbutrin exacerbates anxiety.
> >
> > > My anxiety attacks have actually gotten a little worse.
> >
> > That could easily be from the increased Wellbutrin. Ritch also has a good point; if you're raising the WB, you might want to wait on the selegiline, or vice versa. Selegiline and its active metabolites (l-amphetamine and l-methamphetamine) can certainly have sympathomimetic effects. Monitoring your blood pressure and heart rate seems warranted.
> >
> > The seizure risk is not so much of a concern; selegiline actually has been found to have marked anticonvulsant effects (this has been studied in lab animals using pentylenetetrazole-induced seizures).
> >
> > > Past 4 days I've been taking 2mg at one time at noon. I begin to feel quite good and I feel a balance with my mood and anxiety now but wears off my 6 or so.
> >
> > That's odd. I've found that Klonopin lasts a good 8 hours, at least. (Or do you mean 6 am?)
> >
> > > So I think I still need more klonopin.
> >
> > Or maybe you need to divide the dose more? For example, 0.5 in the morning, 0.5 in the afternoon, 1 at bedtime. I found 4 mg/day (1 morning, 1 afternoon, 2 bedtime) to be optimal for me when I was taking it.
> >
> > The vision thing is weird and could be caused by the Wellbutrin. That's just a guess, of course.
> >
> > > I'm getting the impression that selegiline plus benzos actually benefit from each other and leaves you feeling great.
> >
> > I'd expect them to complement one another, with the benzos alleviating the jitters from selegiline. Anyway, low-dose selegiline (5-10 mg) might well be of help to you, although IIRC there's much more evidence for high-dose selegiline (in depression, at least).
> >
> > > Everybody reply and tell me if I'm going the wrong way or something, because I also think the Wellbutrin with deprenyl won't hurt.
> >
> > The cardiovascular risk would be my main concern. Serotonin syndrome isn't a problem (as it can be with other ADs -- it even occurs occasionally with low-dose selegiline, I think); one thing that is known about Wellbutrin's mechanism of action is that it's not a serotonergic drug.
> >
> > I'll be interested to hear how the selegiline works for you. I never tried taking a low dose, although I did once try a high dose (too jittery).
> >
> > -elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on February 22, 2002, at 23:09:10
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff, posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 15:38:36
Hi again. I'm not sure that deprenyl will be any better for the anxiety than Wellbutrin is, but I think it's worth a try. I found selegiline very jittery, but I was taking a high (nonselective) dose. If you're just taking 5-10 mg, you don't need to watch your diet, and it will probably cause less anxiety than I experienced. Don't expect miracles, mind you, but as I said, I think it's worth trying. (Note: it doesn't have the magical anxiolytic power of Nardil.)
I found Wellbutrin to be jittery as well, even at lower doses than you're taking. It wasn't a pleasant activated antidepressant feeling (and I took it for a full month) with improved mood, motivation, pleasure, concentration, etc. -- instead it was an unpleasant wired feeling, like what you might get from taking too much Sudafed. (I once tried Nicorette -- I'm a non-smoker -- and that was sort of what WB felt like.)
> I got word last night that he wanted me to take 1mg in the morning .5mg at noon and 1mg before bed. Is it best to separate them??? Because I only get the effect on at least 2mg at once!
I think that you should try the schedule your pdoc suggested for a few days. You might find it quite effective. I found that taking my dose (4 mg/day) in 3 divided doses made things smoother.
> This pisses me off. He increases Wellbutrin, and he is so adament about the fact that that is THE drig of choice when it comes to Dopamine-related depression.
The evidence that Wellbutrin has any effect on dopamine is very sketchy. And the evidence that any particular person's depression has to do with dopamine is nonexistent. Why do you believe your depression is "dopamine-related?"
(As I mentioned, the mechanism of action of Wellbutrin is unknown. It appears to involve dopamine -- that is, there is some evidence that *suggests* this -- but this is far from established.)
-elizabeth
Posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 23:11:08
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 22, 2002, at 22:44:44
I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 months!!! 300mg/day didn't work and finally at 450mg/day it is starting to take effect, it's been like 9 days or so on this. I'm beginning to feel better but WAY more anxiety attacks. Klonopin is up to 2.5mg/day recently and.... well let be back up a step. When I was on the 300mg/day dose, a few weeks ago (since I was prescribed .5mg clonazepam for sleep/anxiety) I took 2mg of Klonopin at once and for that one day I felt amazing!!! My anxiety was gone I felt relaxed, I felt normal. The Wellbutrin hadn't seemed to work at all until the recently added increase to 450/mg a day. And either I need to up the Klonpin dosage or I'm stopping the Wellbutrin. I know that Wellbutrin only midly binds the DA uptake and actually diminishes it's release! I am confident that selegiline will help with Klonopin and NO Wellbutrin. People in past posts were worried about Wellbutrin+Klono+Deprenyl and seizure risk.. but Klonopin has anti-seizure benefits, so that wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, I am going to stop the Wellbutrin and go on the selegiline. Even if the 5mg/day (which WILL inhibit MAO-B) doesn't have an extreme dopaminergic effect..the PEA levels should make me feel alert, sexually stimulated, while the Klonopin acts to ease my anxiety. Just read this post my a guy named Adam:
" First off, a disclaimer: I've only done a cursory
browsing of the Selegeline posts.
As I mentioned in another thread, my pdoc
(surprisingly) gave me Selegeline for Social
Anxiety, after Nardil quickly pooped out but
created troublesome, long-lasting side effects.
The Selegeline was a total bust after four weeks
(at 15mg). No reduction whatsoever in my Social
Phobia (BTW, I am not clinically depressed).There WERE some pleasant (!) side effects, such as
increased libido and intensified sexual sensations
(nice!), as well as some needed (mild) lowering of
my blood pressure. No bad side effects.But since there was zilch improvement in the
Social Anxiety, I went off the Selegeline (Cold
Turkey's O.K. at 15 mg), and insisted he let me
try Klonopin (currently 2mg/day). Fairly
promising results after about a week. But then I
suggested (to my rather perplexed pdoc) that I add
back some low-dose Selegeline for mildly
hypotensive effects and possible sexual/cognitive
effects...and WOW! I don't know if this will
last, but the Social Phobia is virtually gone; my
confidence and concentration are currently through
the roof (despite minimal sleep of late, owing to
ultra-busy-ness, NOT insomnia or mania), libido
sky-high, and BP down (though not quite
enough...may move from 5mg. to 10mg. of
Selegeline...still low enough to avoid the MAOI
food restrictions...OR add pindolol...but I'm
afraid to mess with such success!) Of course,
Selegeline's fabled life-extension and
brain-protection qualities don't hurt either. I
probably shouldn't have written this; I'm rarely
superstitious, but for some reason I'm afraid I'll
jinx the wonderfully effective combination I
concocted!Maybe Selegeline works best for augmenting other
meds in mental problems, just as it serves as a
levodopa (sp?) potentiator for Parkinson's. Just
a thought. (As always, YMMV) Of course, your
doctor would have to carefully assess any possible
adverse reactions/dangerous combinations.In any event, I'm excited about the
Klonopin/Selegeline combo. Has anyone else used
this for Social Anxiety, or have I discovered a
"magic combo"? ">>> Well, there you have it. It took a while till the real solution was found. I think this will be the same in my case. Wellbutrin does nothing but cause anxiety. 1 pill of Yohimbe Fuel (8mg yohimbine) causes the same effects in me and I don't want all that Wellbutrin crap in my system. It's just making more and more anxiety filled!!!! I hate it!!!!! My pdoc is an idiot. He refuses to prescribe selegiline so I've ordered it myself. I'm going off the Wellbutrin. Period. I've made up my mind. And I've also made up my mind that Klonopin is the best anti-anxiety med in the nation but has only one drawback... short-term memory effects. That's where Jumex comes into play. And I wouldn't mind the sexual benefits as my sex drive has been pretty much crappy. I want to have sex and everything but my body won't cooperate when the anxiety kicks in. I know I don't have physical ED. I think the PEA will fix that right up. I'm going to add a regimine of 600mg phenylalanine (converts to PEA), Vitamin B6 (helps convert phenylalanine to PEA), and PEA is rapidly broken down by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. I feel it in my bones... I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION. But it'll take 3 weeks for the Jumex to arrive... damn. -Jason911
Posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 23:39:52
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by Elizabeth on February 22, 2002, at 23:09:10
It is dopamine or PEA related. Serotonin is not the case. Serotonin related depression is very sad feelings all the time, unsocial, strange sleep patterns. Basically the main thing is the SSRI people are the feel - down and sad and sorry for themselves. This is not me. I lack: motivation, sex-drive, concentration; and have social anxiety. Selegiline, whether it affects dopamine or PEA (and it's probably both and PEA is practically a certainty) will help my mental alertness and therefore increase motivation because I will be more "activated", sexually stimulated (which will make any male feel good depression wise - mild anyway), and Klono I know will take away my anxiety. I am social right now.. but have to mask the fact that I am tense, sweating, have cold-chills... people ask, "why are you sweating?" and I say "I'm just a little hot" Yeah right. Anxiety needs to go and Klonopin is the answer.. I know. But the Wellbutrin is messing me up. Wellbutrin doesn't act the way we all might think it does. And it doesn't work for lots of people..other people it helps, but it's not me! The effects are unkown which is even more creepy. You mentioned that Nicotine patch..well Wellbutrin (bupropion) is also sold as a stop smoking-aid (Zyban) and acts in a way we'll never know and is different than any other anti-depressant. I don't want to be on it any longer. Too anxious. It's probably the NE overload Wellbutrin that causes this and not the dopamine. Dopamine (or PEA) is my problem. I'm sure of it. And anyway, I WILL NOT take any SSRI. I will never trust them and are full of side effects. And all-out MAOI's need dietary restrictions... that's crap. Tricyclics are even worse. Memantine, and amineptine we're all great anti-depressant drugs and worked so well (at least the latter - and dopamine related) that they had to be pulled off the market for fear of abuse or the government is too strict on whether or not a drug is put into play. Poor people could be saved and they are denied the drugs that are out there and can help!!! Dopamine, as you people will find out in the years to come, plays a larger role in depression than you might think. I'm telling you I think about 60% of all depressed people do not have anything wrong with their serotonin levels. Just like in many people, SSRI's just lift them out of deep depression and keep them at a workable level. Like a safety net. And it's all about big companies and their cravings for money and advertising and dooping doctors into believing this and so on and so on. Whatever. Not normal... but managable. Serotonin loaded brains can help somewhat but isn't the prime cause in some people. Anyway, these are my personal beliefs and I will let you know how my Klono-Dep combo works out. Only in the years that lie ahead will we find the ultimate causes of different peoples' depression. It's just a guessing game out there. -Jason911
Posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 15:19:07
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » JohnX2, posted by Jason911 on February 22, 2002, at 23:11:08
Jason911,It sounds like you know your stuff. I'll add
some comments and my experience. I have experimented
with Jumex in the same manner that you are trying.In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".
This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
Allthough I will admit that 3 months is a long time to be on the
medicine, albeit you just found out what the right dose is and you have
been experimenting with other medicines on the side. In fact by taking
the MAO inhibitor with Wellbutrin you are probably giving the illusion that
wellbutrin is making you anxious and here is why. The Alpha-2 feedback
receptor tells the neuron to stop firing noradrenaline. The reuptake
inhibitor is already increading noradrenaline in the synaptic clept.
When you include an MAOI inhibitor the neuron will shoot out more noradrenaline
than intended and the alpha-2 feedback inhibition mechanism will be
stymied. Of course I could be wrong and maybe you have tried wellbutrin for
an extended period of time without jumex. There may be some ways
to tame the Wellbutrin anxiety with Neurontin or
possibly with an Alpha-2 agonist like Clonidine or
Tenex.As far as precusor loading goes, I wouldn't expect too much unless
you can get your hands on l-dopa. The rate limiting
conversion for phenylalanine->tyrosine->dopamine is not
the amino acid it is an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase.
Your diet already saturates tyrosine hyroxylase with enough
phenylalanine. BTW, I actually found that Wellbutrin
reduced my anxiety and Jumex made me really anxious.
You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This will cause
major heart racing and high blood pressure but it mirrors
amphetamines from my experiment. Yohimbine should work too, but
I wouldn't try it, it will make you super anxious and
can give you a hypertensive crisis. I really would try
to do an add-on to wellbutrin to lower the anxiety first.
I personally know someone on this group recently
who was very jittery on Wellbutrin after getting
a response, so much so his hands shook and he couldn't
hold a cup. 1 week later he said he felt less anxious
than when he started the medicine.-John
> I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 months!!! 300mg/day didn't work and finally at 450mg/day it is starting to take effect, it's been like 9 days or so on this. I'm beginning to feel better but WAY more anxiety attacks. Klonopin is up to 2.5mg/day recently and.... well let be back up a step. When I was on the 300mg/day dose, a few weeks ago (since I was prescribed .5mg clonazepam for sleep/anxiety) I took 2mg of Klonopin at once and for that one day I felt amazing!!! My anxiety was gone I felt relaxed, I felt normal. The Wellbutrin hadn't seemed to work at all until the recently added increase to 450/mg a day. And either I need to up the Klonpin dosage or I'm stopping the Wellbutrin. I know that Wellbutrin only midly binds the DA uptake and actually diminishes it's release! I am confident that selegiline will help with Klonopin and NO Wellbutrin. People in past posts were worried about Wellbutrin+Klono+Deprenyl and seizure risk.. but Klonopin has anti-seizure benefits, so that wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, I am going to stop the Wellbutrin and go on the selegiline. Even if the 5mg/day (which WILL inhibit MAO-B) doesn't have an extreme dopaminergic effect..the PEA levels should make me feel alert, sexually stimulated, while the Klonopin acts to ease my anxiety. Just read this post my a guy named Adam:
>
>
> " First off, a disclaimer: I've only done a cursory
> browsing of the Selegeline posts.
> As I mentioned in another thread, my pdoc
> (surprisingly) gave me Selegeline for Social
> Anxiety, after Nardil quickly pooped out but
> created troublesome, long-lasting side effects.
> The Selegeline was a total bust after four weeks
> (at 15mg). No reduction whatsoever in my Social
> Phobia (BTW, I am not clinically depressed).
>
> There WERE some pleasant (!) side effects, such as
> increased libido and intensified sexual sensations
> (nice!), as well as some needed (mild) lowering of
> my blood pressure. No bad side effects.
>
> But since there was zilch improvement in the
> Social Anxiety, I went off the Selegeline (Cold
> Turkey's O.K. at 15 mg), and insisted he let me
> try Klonopin (currently 2mg/day). Fairly
> promising results after about a week. But then I
> suggested (to my rather perplexed pdoc) that I add
> back some low-dose Selegeline for mildly
> hypotensive effects and possible sexual/cognitive
> effects...and WOW! I don't know if this will
> last, but the Social Phobia is virtually gone; my
> confidence and concentration are currently through
> the roof (despite minimal sleep of late, owing to
> ultra-busy-ness, NOT insomnia or mania), libido
> sky-high, and BP down (though not quite
> enough...may move from 5mg. to 10mg. of
> Selegeline...still low enough to avoid the MAOI
> food restrictions...OR add pindolol...but I'm
> afraid to mess with such success!) Of course,
> Selegeline's fabled life-extension and
> brain-protection qualities don't hurt either. I
> probably shouldn't have written this; I'm rarely
> superstitious, but for some reason I'm afraid I'll
> jinx the wonderfully effective combination I
> concocted!
>
> Maybe Selegeline works best for augmenting other
> meds in mental problems, just as it serves as a
> levodopa (sp?) potentiator for Parkinson's. Just
> a thought. (As always, YMMV) Of course, your
> doctor would have to carefully assess any possible
> adverse reactions/dangerous combinations.
>
> In any event, I'm excited about the
> Klonopin/Selegeline combo. Has anyone else used
> this for Social Anxiety, or have I discovered a
> "magic combo"? "
>
> >>> Well, there you have it. It took a while till the real solution was found. I think this will be the same in my case. Wellbutrin does nothing but cause anxiety. 1 pill of Yohimbe Fuel (8mg yohimbine) causes the same effects in me and I don't want all that Wellbutrin crap in my system. It's just making more and more anxiety filled!!!! I hate it!!!!! My pdoc is an idiot. He refuses to prescribe selegiline so I've ordered it myself. I'm going off the Wellbutrin. Period. I've made up my mind. And I've also made up my mind that Klonopin is the best anti-anxiety med in the nation but has only one drawback... short-term memory effects. That's where Jumex comes into play. And I wouldn't mind the sexual benefits as my sex drive has been pretty much crappy. I want to have sex and everything but my body won't cooperate when the anxiety kicks in. I know I don't have physical ED. I think the PEA will fix that right up. I'm going to add a regimine of 600mg phenylalanine (converts to PEA), Vitamin B6 (helps convert phenylalanine to PEA), and PEA is rapidly broken down by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. I feel it in my bones... I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION. But it'll take 3 weeks for the Jumex to arrive... damn. -Jason911
Posted by Jason911 on February 23, 2002, at 22:05:38
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 15:19:07
I will correct by paragraph:
>
> Jason911,
>
> It sounds like you know your stuff. I'll add
> some comments and my experience. I have experimented
> with Jumex in the same manner that you are trying.
>
> In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
> firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".::::If it inhibits the LC, then that is DEFINATELY not helping my dopamine production. Dopmaine nuerons send messages right through there!
> This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
> to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
> reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
> receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
> slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
> with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
> But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
> Allthough I will admit that 3 months is a long time to be on the
> medicine, albeit you just found out what the right dose is and you have
> been experimenting with other medicines on the side.:::: Actually, I haven't taken the Jumex yet. It's on order and should be here in a few weeks. And "desensitizing" my alpa-2's are probably what is now giving me an inability to be fully sexually stimulated and get a full erection and can't get to the point of ejaculation. I never had this problem before starting Wellbutrin!!! This just started a few days ago. The only other medice I have been taking is Klonopin, which should be great with anxiety, and was until the Wellbutrin dosage was increased, which should require more Klono but I think I need more anyway. Wellbutrin is not the answer. It is now giving me signs of ED. I know it.
In fact by taking
> the MAO inhibitor with Wellbutrin you are probably giving the illusion that
> wellbutrin is making you anxious and here is why. The Alpha-2 feedback
> receptor tells the neuron to stop firing noradrenaline. The reuptake
> inhibitor is already increading noradrenaline in the synaptic clept.
> When you include an MAOI inhibitor the neuron will shoot out more noradrenaline
> than intended and the alpha-2 feedback inhibition mechanism will be
> stymied. Of course I could be wrong and maybe you have tried wellbutrin for
> an extended period of time without jumex. There may be some ways
> to tame the Wellbutrin anxiety with Neurontin or
> possibly with an Alpha-2 agonist like Clonidine or
> Tenex.
:::: I don't want to take alot of meds to cure this side effect and take another for this and so on. And I haven't even taken the Jumex yet!!! The Wellbutrin is not acting on the part of my brain that needs help to get me more motivated and sexually stimulated. The NE increase, which Wellbutrin has caused, has produced an adverse reaction in sex drive and has now gotten so high I guess it is affecting my sexual functions now at the higher dosage. I am going to quit the Wellbutrin and that's a fact. The Jumex on the other hand was stimulating to you because of dopamine increase (Wellbutrin decreases the release and only mildly binds to uptake) and PEA increase. This is exactly what I need!!! I need the motivation and sex drive returned. And taking that with the Klonopin will help with the anxiety!! Deprenyl+Klonopin (5mg/2mg respectively)every day. Then after a week I will resort to 5mg Jumex every other day. The phenylalanine is not to increase dopamine but to increase PEA!!! PEA is what MAO-B inhibits and quickly gets rid of in our bodies. It is released when we fall in love, elevated mood, and deprenyl increases sex drive.
>
> As far as precusor loading goes, I wouldn't expect too much unless
> you can get your hands on l-dopa. The rate limiting
> conversion for phenylalanine->tyrosine->dopamine is not
> the amino acid it is an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase.
> Your diet already saturates tyrosine hyroxylase with enough
> phenylalanine.:::You see, the Wellbutrin has affected my NE, which was fine to begin with, I now think. It has done little for my dopamine. Deprenyl also increases tyrosine hydroxilase on it's own.
BTW, I actually found that Wellbutrin
> reduced my anxiety and Jumex made me really anxious.
> You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
> but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
:::I'm not trying to take alot of meds. And don't want to spend the money on them let alone try to get my pdoc to prescribe them.> The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
> increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This will cause
> major heart racing and high blood pressure but it mirrors
> amphetamines from my experiment. Yohimbine should work too, but
> I wouldn't try it, it will make you super anxious and
> can give you a hypertensive crisis. I really would try
> to do an add-on to wellbutrin to lower the anxiety first.
> I personally know someone on this group recently
> who was very jittery on Wellbutrin after getting
> a response, so much so his hands shook and he couldn't
> hold a cup. 1 week later he said he felt less anxious
> than when he started the medicine.
::::Anything that is messing with my alpha-2 is what is giving my SD. That's why Yohimbine works so well. It is an Alpa-2 antagonist. Wellbutrin is no more!!! BTW, the Klonopin works great! I took 2.5mg this morning and lasted all day after quitting Wellbutrin cold-turkey. I don't have to worry about seizures from the sudden stoppage because the Klonopin has anti-seizure properties. And is wonderful for my anxiety!! I can't wait till I get my Jumex and my sexual performace back up to par. Did you read the posts I put of of Adam in this thread??? I hope it works in me just like it sis in him. I think I know my solution and I'm going to go through with it. But you seem to know your stuff so write back and let me know what you think after having me post this!!! I thank you for your help!!! Please respond people! Personal experiences? -Jason911
>
> -John
>
>
>
>
> > I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 months!!! 300mg/day didn't work and finally at 450mg/day it is starting to take effect, it's been like 9 days or so on this. I'm beginning to feel better but WAY more anxiety attacks. Klonopin is up to 2.5mg/day recently and.... well let be back up a step. When I was on the 300mg/day dose, a few weeks ago (since I was prescribed .5mg clonazepam for sleep/anxiety) I took 2mg of Klonopin at once and for that one day I felt amazing!!! My anxiety was gone I felt relaxed, I felt normal. The Wellbutrin hadn't seemed to work at all until the recently added increase to 450/mg a day. And either I need to up the Klonpin dosage or I'm stopping the Wellbutrin. I know that Wellbutrin only midly binds the DA uptake and actually diminishes it's release! I am confident that selegiline will help with Klonopin and NO Wellbutrin. People in past posts were worried about Wellbutrin+Klono+Deprenyl and seizure risk.. but Klonopin has anti-seizure benefits, so that wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, I am going to stop the Wellbutrin and go on the selegiline. Even if the 5mg/day (which WILL inhibit MAO-B) doesn't have an extreme dopaminergic effect..the PEA levels should make me feel alert, sexually stimulated, while the Klonopin acts to ease my anxiety. Just read this post my a guy named Adam:
> >
> >
> > " First off, a disclaimer: I've only done a cursory
> > browsing of the Selegeline posts.
> > As I mentioned in another thread, my pdoc
> > (surprisingly) gave me Selegeline for Social
> > Anxiety, after Nardil quickly pooped out but
> > created troublesome, long-lasting side effects.
> > The Selegeline was a total bust after four weeks
> > (at 15mg). No reduction whatsoever in my Social
> > Phobia (BTW, I am not clinically depressed).
> >
> > There WERE some pleasant (!) side effects, such as
> > increased libido and intensified sexual sensations
> > (nice!), as well as some needed (mild) lowering of
> > my blood pressure. No bad side effects.
> >
> > But since there was zilch improvement in the
> > Social Anxiety, I went off the Selegeline (Cold
> > Turkey's O.K. at 15 mg), and insisted he let me
> > try Klonopin (currently 2mg/day). Fairly
> > promising results after about a week. But then I
> > suggested (to my rather perplexed pdoc) that I add
> > back some low-dose Selegeline for mildly
> > hypotensive effects and possible sexual/cognitive
> > effects...and WOW! I don't know if this will
> > last, but the Social Phobia is virtually gone; my
> > confidence and concentration are currently through
> > the roof (despite minimal sleep of late, owing to
> > ultra-busy-ness, NOT insomnia or mania), libido
> > sky-high, and BP down (though not quite
> > enough...may move from 5mg. to 10mg. of
> > Selegeline...still low enough to avoid the MAOI
> > food restrictions...OR add pindolol...but I'm
> > afraid to mess with such success!) Of course,
> > Selegeline's fabled life-extension and
> > brain-protection qualities don't hurt either. I
> > probably shouldn't have written this; I'm rarely
> > superstitious, but for some reason I'm afraid I'll
> > jinx the wonderfully effective combination I
> > concocted!
> >
> > Maybe Selegeline works best for augmenting other
> > meds in mental problems, just as it serves as a
> > levodopa (sp?) potentiator for Parkinson's. Just
> > a thought. (As always, YMMV) Of course, your
> > doctor would have to carefully assess any possible
> > adverse reactions/dangerous combinations.
> >
> > In any event, I'm excited about the
> > Klonopin/Selegeline combo. Has anyone else used
> > this for Social Anxiety, or have I discovered a
> > "magic combo"? "
> >
> > >>> Well, there you have it. It took a while till the real solution was found. I think this will be the same in my case. Wellbutrin does nothing but cause anxiety. 1 pill of Yohimbe Fuel (8mg yohimbine) causes the same effects in me and I don't want all that Wellbutrin crap in my system. It's just making more and more anxiety filled!!!! I hate it!!!!! My pdoc is an idiot. He refuses to prescribe selegiline so I've ordered it myself. I'm going off the Wellbutrin. Period. I've made up my mind. And I've also made up my mind that Klonopin is the best anti-anxiety med in the nation but has only one drawback... short-term memory effects. That's where Jumex comes into play. And I wouldn't mind the sexual benefits as my sex drive has been pretty much crappy. I want to have sex and everything but my body won't cooperate when the anxiety kicks in. I know I don't have physical ED. I think the PEA will fix that right up. I'm going to add a regimine of 600mg phenylalanine (converts to PEA), Vitamin B6 (helps convert phenylalanine to PEA), and PEA is rapidly broken down by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. I feel it in my bones... I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION. But it'll take 3 weeks for the Jumex to arrive... damn. -Jason911
Posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 22:47:47
In reply to YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » JohnX2, posted by Jason911 on February 23, 2002, at 22:05:38
Hi,Good luck with your medicines.
Are you aware that MAOI inhibitors will increase
monoamines in the synaptic cleft and downregulate
their autorecptors over time?I would caution against expirementing with yohimibine
and a maoi inhibitor. This can cause a hypertensive crisis
and will definately shoot your anxiety out of control.Have you considered an alternative to this Jumex + precursor
loading idea and just going after the real mccoy, a
hard core dompaminergic stimulant like dexedrine
or Adderral (dextroamphetamine)?-John
> I will correct by paragraph:
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Jason911,
> >
> > It sounds like you know your stuff. I'll add
> > some comments and my experience. I have experimented
> > with Jumex in the same manner that you are trying.
> >
> > In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
> > firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".
>
> ::::If it inhibits the LC, then that is DEFINATELY not helping my dopamine production. Dopmaine nuerons send messages right through there!
>
> > This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
> > to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
> > reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
> > receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
> > slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
> > with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
> > But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
> > Allthough I will admit that 3 months is a long time to be on the
> > medicine, albeit you just found out what the right dose is and you have
> > been experimenting with other medicines on the side.
>
> :::: Actually, I haven't taken the Jumex yet. It's on order and should be here in a few weeks. And "desensitizing" my alpa-2's are probably what is now giving me an inability to be fully sexually stimulated and get a full erection and can't get to the point of ejaculation. I never had this problem before starting Wellbutrin!!! This just started a few days ago. The only other medice I have been taking is Klonopin, which should be great with anxiety, and was until the Wellbutrin dosage was increased, which should require more Klono but I think I need more anyway. Wellbutrin is not the answer. It is now giving me signs of ED. I know it.
>
>
> In fact by taking
> > the MAO inhibitor with Wellbutrin you are probably giving the illusion that
> > wellbutrin is making you anxious and here is why. The Alpha-2 feedback
> > receptor tells the neuron to stop firing noradrenaline. The reuptake
> > inhibitor is already increading noradrenaline in the synaptic clept.
> > When you include an MAOI inhibitor the neuron will shoot out more noradrenaline
> > than intended and the alpha-2 feedback inhibition mechanism will be
> > stymied. Of course I could be wrong and maybe you have tried wellbutrin for
> > an extended period of time without jumex. There may be some ways
> > to tame the Wellbutrin anxiety with Neurontin or
> > possibly with an Alpha-2 agonist like Clonidine or
> > Tenex.
>
>
> :::: I don't want to take alot of meds to cure this side effect and take another for this and so on. And I haven't even taken the Jumex yet!!! The Wellbutrin is not acting on the part of my brain that needs help to get me more motivated and sexually stimulated. The NE increase, which Wellbutrin has caused, has produced an adverse reaction in sex drive and has now gotten so high I guess it is affecting my sexual functions now at the higher dosage. I am going to quit the Wellbutrin and that's a fact. The Jumex on the other hand was stimulating to you because of dopamine increase (Wellbutrin decreases the release and only mildly binds to uptake) and PEA increase. This is exactly what I need!!! I need the motivation and sex drive returned. And taking that with the Klonopin will help with the anxiety!! Deprenyl+Klonopin (5mg/2mg respectively)every day. Then after a week I will resort to 5mg Jumex every other day. The phenylalanine is not to increase dopamine but to increase PEA!!! PEA is what MAO-B inhibits and quickly gets rid of in our bodies. It is released when we fall in love, elevated mood, and deprenyl increases sex drive.
>
>
> >
> > As far as precusor loading goes, I wouldn't expect too much unless
> > you can get your hands on l-dopa. The rate limiting
> > conversion for phenylalanine->tyrosine->dopamine is not
> > the amino acid it is an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase.
> > Your diet already saturates tyrosine hyroxylase with enough
> > phenylalanine.
>
> :::You see, the Wellbutrin has affected my NE, which was fine to begin with, I now think. It has done little for my dopamine. Deprenyl also increases tyrosine hydroxilase on it's own.
>
>
>
> BTW, I actually found that Wellbutrin
> > reduced my anxiety and Jumex made me really anxious.
> > You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
> > but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
>
>
> :::I'm not trying to take alot of meds. And don't want to spend the money on them let alone try to get my pdoc to prescribe them.
>
>
>
> > The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
> > increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This will cause
> > major heart racing and high blood pressure but it mirrors
> > amphetamines from my experiment. Yohimbine should work too, but
> > I wouldn't try it, it will make you super anxious and
> > can give you a hypertensive crisis. I really would try
> > to do an add-on to wellbutrin to lower the anxiety first.
> > I personally know someone on this group recently
> > who was very jittery on Wellbutrin after getting
> > a response, so much so his hands shook and he couldn't
> > hold a cup. 1 week later he said he felt less anxious
> > than when he started the medicine.
>
>
>
>
> ::::Anything that is messing with my alpha-2 is what is giving my SD. That's why Yohimbine works so well. It is an Alpa-2 antagonist. Wellbutrin is no more!!! BTW, the Klonopin works great! I took 2.5mg this morning and lasted all day after quitting Wellbutrin cold-turkey. I don't have to worry about seizures from the sudden stoppage because the Klonopin has anti-seizure properties. And is wonderful for my anxiety!! I can't wait till I get my Jumex and my sexual performace back up to par. Did you read the posts I put of of Adam in this thread??? I hope it works in me just like it sis in him. I think I know my solution and I'm going to go through with it. But you seem to know your stuff so write back and let me know what you think after having me post this!!! I thank you for your help!!! Please respond people! Personal experiences? -Jason911
> >
> > -John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 months!!! 300mg/day didn't work and finally at 450mg/day it is starting to take effect, it's been like 9 days or so on this. I'm beginning to feel better but WAY more anxiety attacks. Klonopin is up to 2.5mg/day recently and.... well let be back up a step. When I was on the 300mg/day dose, a few weeks ago (since I was prescribed .5mg clonazepam for sleep/anxiety) I took 2mg of Klonopin at once and for that one day I felt amazing!!! My anxiety was gone I felt relaxed, I felt normal. The Wellbutrin hadn't seemed to work at all until the recently added increase to 450/mg a day. And either I need to up the Klonpin dosage or I'm stopping the Wellbutrin. I know that Wellbutrin only midly binds the DA uptake and actually diminishes it's release! I am confident that selegiline will help with Klonopin and NO Wellbutrin. People in past posts were worried about Wellbutrin+Klono+Deprenyl and seizure risk.. but Klonopin has anti-seizure benefits, so that wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, I am going to stop the Wellbutrin and go on the selegiline. Even if the 5mg/day (which WILL inhibit MAO-B) doesn't have an extreme dopaminergic effect..the PEA levels should make me feel alert, sexually stimulated, while the Klonopin acts to ease my anxiety. Just read this post my a guy named Adam:
> > >
> > >
> > > " First off, a disclaimer: I've only done a cursory
> > > browsing of the Selegeline posts.
> > > As I mentioned in another thread, my pdoc
> > > (surprisingly) gave me Selegeline for Social
> > > Anxiety, after Nardil quickly pooped out but
> > > created troublesome, long-lasting side effects.
> > > The Selegeline was a total bust after four weeks
> > > (at 15mg). No reduction whatsoever in my Social
> > > Phobia (BTW, I am not clinically depressed).
> > >
> > > There WERE some pleasant (!) side effects, such as
> > > increased libido and intensified sexual sensations
> > > (nice!), as well as some needed (mild) lowering of
> > > my blood pressure. No bad side effects.
> > >
> > > But since there was zilch improvement in the
> > > Social Anxiety, I went off the Selegeline (Cold
> > > Turkey's O.K. at 15 mg), and insisted he let me
> > > try Klonopin (currently 2mg/day). Fairly
> > > promising results after about a week. But then I
> > > suggested (to my rather perplexed pdoc) that I add
> > > back some low-dose Selegeline for mildly
> > > hypotensive effects and possible sexual/cognitive
> > > effects...and WOW! I don't know if this will
> > > last, but the Social Phobia is virtually gone; my
> > > confidence and concentration are currently through
> > > the roof (despite minimal sleep of late, owing to
> > > ultra-busy-ness, NOT insomnia or mania), libido
> > > sky-high, and BP down (though not quite
> > > enough...may move from 5mg. to 10mg. of
> > > Selegeline...still low enough to avoid the MAOI
> > > food restrictions...OR add pindolol...but I'm
> > > afraid to mess with such success!) Of course,
> > > Selegeline's fabled life-extension and
> > > brain-protection qualities don't hurt either. I
> > > probably shouldn't have written this; I'm rarely
> > > superstitious, but for some reason I'm afraid I'll
> > > jinx the wonderfully effective combination I
> > > concocted!
> > >
> > > Maybe Selegeline works best for augmenting other
> > > meds in mental problems, just as it serves as a
> > > levodopa (sp?) potentiator for Parkinson's. Just
> > > a thought. (As always, YMMV) Of course, your
> > > doctor would have to carefully assess any possible
> > > adverse reactions/dangerous combinations.
> > >
> > > In any event, I'm excited about the
> > > Klonopin/Selegeline combo. Has anyone else used
> > > this for Social Anxiety, or have I discovered a
> > > "magic combo"? "
> > >
> > > >>> Well, there you have it. It took a while till the real solution was found. I think this will be the same in my case. Wellbutrin does nothing but cause anxiety. 1 pill of Yohimbe Fuel (8mg yohimbine) causes the same effects in me and I don't want all that Wellbutrin crap in my system. It's just making more and more anxiety filled!!!! I hate it!!!!! My pdoc is an idiot. He refuses to prescribe selegiline so I've ordered it myself. I'm going off the Wellbutrin. Period. I've made up my mind. And I've also made up my mind that Klonopin is the best anti-anxiety med in the nation but has only one drawback... short-term memory effects. That's where Jumex comes into play. And I wouldn't mind the sexual benefits as my sex drive has been pretty much crappy. I want to have sex and everything but my body won't cooperate when the anxiety kicks in. I know I don't have physical ED. I think the PEA will fix that right up. I'm going to add a regimine of 600mg phenylalanine (converts to PEA), Vitamin B6 (helps convert phenylalanine to PEA), and PEA is rapidly broken down by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. I feel it in my bones... I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION. But it'll take 3 weeks for the Jumex to arrive... damn. -Jason911
Posted by Jason911 on February 24, 2002, at 10:36:38
In reply to Re: YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 22:47:47
I am not going to take yohimbine with the Jumex. I haven't even used Yohmbie but a few times last year while taking no meds. Adderall did absolutely NOTHING for me. Had NO EFFECT WHARSOEVER!!! Even at 50mg at once. Ritalin on the other hand make me a hyper-maniac (Have you read my thread "MUST READ (dperenyl,adderall,klonpin,well..)". That way you can get more of a background of what I have gone through. Dexedrine has been known to cause impotence. I am really set on the Jumex allowing for high levels of PEA to go through my system as well as increase dopamine levels (it raises dopamine levels in Parkinson patients by 40-70%!). This is my answer. I have already stopped the Wellbutrin as of 2 days ago. Again, the ONLY meds that I will be taking when I get the Jumex are Jumex and Klonopin only. 5mg for a week to build it up, then 5mg every other day. And 2mg Klonopin every day. Selegiline actually increases Klonopins benefits as well. Don't ask me how. It's just true. -Jason911 Thanks for responding. Any more thought??? God bless
Posted by JohnX2 on February 24, 2002, at 14:34:57
In reply to Re: YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » JohnX2, posted by Jason911 on February 24, 2002, at 10:36:38
Good luck, sorry i didn't stay on top of
your earlier posts. A lot of people have had
luck with selegiline as an AD. Frankly it is probably
underutilized. Hopefully they will come out with the
patch version soon so that you don't have the dietary restrictions.Regards,
John> I am not going to take yohimbine with the Jumex. I haven't even used Yohmbie but a few times last year while taking no meds. Adderall did absolutely NOTHING for me. Had NO EFFECT WHARSOEVER!!! Even at 50mg at once. Ritalin on the other hand make me a hyper-maniac (Have you read my thread "MUST READ (dperenyl,adderall,klonpin,well..)". That way you can get more of a background of what I have gone through. Dexedrine has been known to cause impotence. I am really set on the Jumex allowing for high levels of PEA to go through my system as well as increase dopamine levels (it raises dopamine levels in Parkinson patients by 40-70%!). This is my answer. I have already stopped the Wellbutrin as of 2 days ago. Again, the ONLY meds that I will be taking when I get the Jumex are Jumex and Klonopin only. 5mg for a week to build it up, then 5mg every other day. And 2mg Klonopin every day. Selegiline actually increases Klonopins benefits as well. Don't ask me how. It's just true. -Jason911 Thanks for responding. Any more thought??? God bless
Posted by Jason911 on February 24, 2002, at 18:58:16
In reply to Re: YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 24, 2002, at 14:34:57
Posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 22:50:05
In reply to YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » JohnX2, posted by Jason911 on February 23, 2002, at 22:05:38
You dudes have the patience of fruit flies.
Listen-you're not getting accurate readings on *anything* whipping your doses and meds around by the day and expecting to know what's up. Worse than useless.
El-deprynel is not a wonder med. Wellbutrin can be. Lamictal and Desryrel most libido-stim, in my loooong experience.
Same Jason?
Zo
Posted by JohnX2 on February 24, 2002, at 23:49:56
In reply to Re: YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » Jason911, posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 22:50:05
Zo,Let's see. I think I started out with a strong
hand of cards. I.e. I already knew that wellbutrin
was the answer and had both personal experience,
experience of people recommended the medicine,
resereach data, etc.
I caved under the heat of not knowing Jason's background
and knowledge which he had documented.So I thought his strategy of aborting Wellbutrin
was wrong. I know that selegiline at 5 mg is a joke.
I will concur that for someone who has tried the classical
routes for depression, i.e. SSRIs, Wellbutrin, Parnate, Lamictal
with no luck, then maybe a good step maybe a strong dose
of deprynl. But here you need a strong dose. Were talking
60 mg. And you need to wait the default 2-6 weeks. This
salivation over instant sexual power, etc at 5 mg is just not
going to happen. And getting into a rat trap of adding benzos
without seriously looking into SSRIs 1st probably isnt too
smart.So that is what my spine really thinks.
I do think Jason really does want good treatment.
And I do recall a time when I was stubburn about
my own thinking, so I'll take things with a grain
of salt and wish him the best of luck. He is a smart
fellow. And stubborn. just like me.-John
> You dudes have the patience of fruit flies.
>
> Listen-you're not getting accurate readings on *anything* whipping your doses and meds around by the day and expecting to know what's up. Worse than useless.
>
> El-deprynel is not a wonder med. Wellbutrin can be. Lamictal and Desryrel most libido-stim, in my loooong experience.
>
> Same Jason?
>
> Zo
Posted by JohnX2 on February 25, 2002, at 19:36:32
In reply to Re: YOU MISUNDERSTOOD!!!!!! » Jason911, posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 22:50:05
Zo,I've heard many horror stories of bipolar IIs
being misdiagnosed as Major depressives and being
given the wrong medicines and treatments for DECADES.So basically I've tried many medicines and given them
FAIR trials and got responses that pooped out and I also
have struggled with this excruciating Myofacial pain for
3 years. Last Fall, I decided to take things into my
own hands. I researched psychiatry learned what I could
came to the conclusion that I was probably bipolar, put
MYSELF on lamictal after researching and finding
a new psychiatrist and lying to him telling him that I was already on the medicine because
I didn't want another retard doctor to misdiagnose me.
This time the medicine lifted 80% of my depression and
stuck.I still was stuck with excruciating myofacial pain which
neurologists couldn't fix. I moved towns and found a good pdoc
who I new was good because I learned about psychiatry and I
new what he should be doing, and he was doing the right thing.
Anyways my treatment has gone better. I'm still not
100% cured, and I still struggle with myofacial pain.I gave these medicines a full trial:
St.John -> Complete Remission for 3 days.
pooped out after 3 days.
Followed by COMPLETE EXCRUTIATING
EMOTIONAL NUMBING and FACIAL PAIN
Paxil -> 2+ months no response
Wellbutrin -> hypomanic followed by bizzare myofacial
pain and COMPLETE emotional numbing
Zoloft -> same as wellbutrin
Lamictal -> Dumb ass 1st pdoc dosed it 2 quickly and
it gave me a rash
Effexor -> 2+ months no response
Adderall -> Made me manic. Stupid doctor should
not have given a bipolar person a stimulant
without a mood stabilizer duh. I lost 95% of my wealth
in the stock options market.
Klonopin -> Majically stabilized my mood, strange.
No shit its a mood stabilizer. Its clue I'm bipolar.
Fixed my damn headached too.
Depakote -> 2+ months placebo.
Serzone -> 2+ months trial. Fixed my headaches.
Too drowsy. Crash my car and almost kill myself.
Stop the medicine.
Back on Klonopin.
Klonopin craps out.
Fall suicidal.
Decide to take matters into one hands.
Research psychiatry and decide to restart Lamictal.Titratre Lamictal carefully over 2 months, cures
major depression for 1st time at 150 mg. If I
bump the dose to 300 mg It tottally numbs out my
emotions and gives me severe myofacial pain, just
like Zoloft and Wellbutrin. 20% of depression still
exists.Have since toyed with many medicines/mood stabilizers.
Nothing really has helped the situation. I'm
retrying Serzone. Its not making me drowsy this
time and I hope it wipes this last 20% and cures
the residual headache.Current psychiatrist sent me to "the best neurologist
in Austin" who proclaims "I don't know why you have
headaches and there is nothing I can do for you".So Zo do you have any advice on how I can keep
my confidence up? Should I just put my hands in
these wonderful doctors? Am I being too impatient
with my medicines?Thanks for any advice.
-John
> You dudes have the patience of fruit flies.
>
> Listen-you're not getting accurate readings on *anything* whipping your doses and meds around by the day and expecting to know what's up. Worse than useless.
>
> El-deprynel is not a wonder med. Wellbutrin can be. Lamictal and Desryrel most libido-stim, in my loooong experience.
>
> Same Jason?
>
> Zo
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 21:24:52
In reply to Re: Patience of Fruit Flies? Tell me what to do? » Zo, posted by JohnX2 on February 25, 2002, at 19:36:32
> > You dudes have the patience of fruit flies.
> So Zo do you have any advice on how I can keep
> my confidence up? Should I just put my hands in
> these wonderful doctors? Am I being too impatient
> with my medicines?
>
> Thanks for any advice.Thanks for responding in a civil way...
Bob
Posted by JohnX2 on February 25, 2002, at 22:01:05
In reply to Re: Patience of Fruit Flies?, posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 21:24:52
I suspect your being a bit facetious.
I'm swinging a bit hypomanic and shouldn't get
into these imbroglios. Someone usually gets hurt,
including me. Apologies to Zo, Jason911, and
pbabble readers wasting their valuable
time on this crud.Regards,
John
> Thanks for responding in a civil way...
>
> Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 25, 2002, at 22:52:47
In reply to Re: Patience of Fruit Flies? » Dr. Bob, posted by JohnX2 on February 25, 2002, at 22:01:05
> I suspect your being a bit facetious.
No, I was being serious. You didn't accuse her of anything, put her down, etc...
Bob
Posted by cmcdougall on February 26, 2002, at 9:49:33
In reply to Re: Patience of Fruit Flies? Tell me what to do? » Zo, posted by JohnX2 on February 25, 2002, at 19:36:32
Hey John,
I live in Austin and have been looking for a new neuro - have tried two and both have been no help. Who have you tried?
Thanks,
Carly
Posted by JohnX2 on February 26, 2002, at 15:24:29
In reply to Pls tell me about your pdoc and neuro... » JohnX2, posted by cmcdougall on February 26, 2002, at 9:49:33
Hi Carly,I prefer not to discuss specific names on the
internet, if you would like to talk about this
offline I would be happy to.
Please email me at john_z_x2@yahoo.com.PS. Damn its getting cold.
Regards,
John
> Hey John,
>
> I live in Austin and have been looking for a new neuro - have tried two and both have been no help. Who have you tried?
>
> Thanks,
> Carly
Posted by mike21 on February 26, 2002, at 20:08:01
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 15:19:07
>
> In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
> firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".
> This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
> to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
> reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
> receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
> slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
> with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
> But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
.
.
.
> You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
> but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
> The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
> increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This
It seems that remeron would actually block wellbutrin from performing its main action: desensitizing the alpha-2 feedback receptor. I was recently prescribed both, but am now questioning the point of using both at once. I guess it could be that the wellbutrin is somehow meant to augment remeron and some of its side-effects. What are your thoughts?Mike
Posted by JohnX2 on February 26, 2002, at 20:51:24
In reply to wellbutrin vs. remeron » JohnX2, posted by mike21 on February 26, 2002, at 20:08:01
Mike,Your pdoc prescribed both?
While its hard to predict precisely how medicine
would react in concert in the brain, logic would dictate
that you would want them to work synergistically to
get an additive effect.
As such, I have always felt that a Remeron/Wellbutrin
type combo would have "interference". But there no real clinical
data to back it up. You don't really hear of too many
people trying that combo. I'm aware of a number of
noradrenergic medicines that increase firing in the locus
coeruleus and others that inhibit firing, there projections
from that nucleus is where a lot of the anti-depressant mechanisms
occur. I would see a "conflict of interest" if you combined to
medicines trying to do the opposite thing. Just my opinion
I could be wrong, but you came to the same independant conclusion.Good luck with your medicines.
Frankly I think the Remeron may make the Wellbutrin
quite anxious feeling. I guess Im thinking the Wellbutrin
may enhance the Remerons effect, but it would kill the
Wellbutrins mode of action. (Id explain but Im tired).Regards,
John
> >
> > In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
> > firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".
> > This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
> > to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
> > reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
> > receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
> > slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
> > with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
> > But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
> .
> .
> .
> > You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
> > but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
> > The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
> > increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This
>
>
> It seems that remeron would actually block wellbutrin from performing its main action: desensitizing the alpha-2 feedback receptor. I was recently prescribed both, but am now questioning the point of using both at once. I guess it could be that the wellbutrin is somehow meant to augment remeron and some of its side-effects. What are your thoughts?
>
> Mike
Posted by mike21 on February 27, 2002, at 18:06:50
In reply to Re: wellbutrin vs. remeron » mike21, posted by JohnX2 on February 26, 2002, at 20:51:24
John,
Thanks for the response. Yes, my pdoc prescribed both. I have had a history of poor sleep so I thought I would give the remeron a try anyway, even though I would prefer to see the effects of an individual med before augmenting. It did help me sleep, but as with other anti-histamines, I was anxious afterwards. Also, for the first couple of days, when something would startle me, I could feel a surge of impulses traveling in my brain from the back to the front. Don't know if that was one or the other med, or both. I discontinued the remeron for these reasons and now am waiting to adapt to the wellbutrin. I am still in the first week. We'll see what happens!
Mike
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.