Posted by Jason911 on February 23, 2002, at 22:05:38
In reply to Re: selegiline stuff » Jason911, posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 15:19:07
I will correct by paragraph:
>
> Jason911,
>
> It sounds like you know your stuff. I'll add
> some comments and my experience. I have experimented
> with Jumex in the same manner that you are trying.
>
> In regards to Wellbutrin, the medicine long term inhibits
> firing in an area of the brain called the "locus coeruleus".::::If it inhibits the LC, then that is DEFINATELY not helping my dopamine production. Dopmaine nuerons send messages right through there!
> This is a central noradrenergic nucleus that is very sensitize
> to stress. Wellbutrin has metabolites that are potent norepinephirine
> reuptake inhibitors that long term desensitize the alpha-2 feedback
> receptors in this area of the brain which causes the firing rate to
> slow down. This causes a net increases in norephinephrine in the synapse
> with a slower firing rate. The slower firing rate gives reduced anxiety.
> But it takes time for the alpha-2 feedback receptor to be downregulated.
> Allthough I will admit that 3 months is a long time to be on the
> medicine, albeit you just found out what the right dose is and you have
> been experimenting with other medicines on the side.:::: Actually, I haven't taken the Jumex yet. It's on order and should be here in a few weeks. And "desensitizing" my alpa-2's are probably what is now giving me an inability to be fully sexually stimulated and get a full erection and can't get to the point of ejaculation. I never had this problem before starting Wellbutrin!!! This just started a few days ago. The only other medice I have been taking is Klonopin, which should be great with anxiety, and was until the Wellbutrin dosage was increased, which should require more Klono but I think I need more anyway. Wellbutrin is not the answer. It is now giving me signs of ED. I know it.
In fact by taking
> the MAO inhibitor with Wellbutrin you are probably giving the illusion that
> wellbutrin is making you anxious and here is why. The Alpha-2 feedback
> receptor tells the neuron to stop firing noradrenaline. The reuptake
> inhibitor is already increading noradrenaline in the synaptic clept.
> When you include an MAOI inhibitor the neuron will shoot out more noradrenaline
> than intended and the alpha-2 feedback inhibition mechanism will be
> stymied. Of course I could be wrong and maybe you have tried wellbutrin for
> an extended period of time without jumex. There may be some ways
> to tame the Wellbutrin anxiety with Neurontin or
> possibly with an Alpha-2 agonist like Clonidine or
> Tenex.
:::: I don't want to take alot of meds to cure this side effect and take another for this and so on. And I haven't even taken the Jumex yet!!! The Wellbutrin is not acting on the part of my brain that needs help to get me more motivated and sexually stimulated. The NE increase, which Wellbutrin has caused, has produced an adverse reaction in sex drive and has now gotten so high I guess it is affecting my sexual functions now at the higher dosage. I am going to quit the Wellbutrin and that's a fact. The Jumex on the other hand was stimulating to you because of dopamine increase (Wellbutrin decreases the release and only mildly binds to uptake) and PEA increase. This is exactly what I need!!! I need the motivation and sex drive returned. And taking that with the Klonopin will help with the anxiety!! Deprenyl+Klonopin (5mg/2mg respectively)every day. Then after a week I will resort to 5mg Jumex every other day. The phenylalanine is not to increase dopamine but to increase PEA!!! PEA is what MAO-B inhibits and quickly gets rid of in our bodies. It is released when we fall in love, elevated mood, and deprenyl increases sex drive.
>
> As far as precusor loading goes, I wouldn't expect too much unless
> you can get your hands on l-dopa. The rate limiting
> conversion for phenylalanine->tyrosine->dopamine is not
> the amino acid it is an enzyme called tyrosine hydroxylase.
> Your diet already saturates tyrosine hyroxylase with enough
> phenylalanine.:::You see, the Wellbutrin has affected my NE, which was fine to begin with, I now think. It has done little for my dopamine. Deprenyl also increases tyrosine hydroxilase on it's own.
BTW, I actually found that Wellbutrin
> reduced my anxiety and Jumex made me really anxious.
> You can really increase the power of Jumex by taking Remeron,
> but you are playing with fire and will be really anxious.
:::I'm not trying to take alot of meds. And don't want to spend the money on them let alone try to get my pdoc to prescribe them.> The Remeron antagonizes the alpha-2 feedback receptor and I think will
> increase the tyrosine hydroxylase enzyme. This will cause
> major heart racing and high blood pressure but it mirrors
> amphetamines from my experiment. Yohimbine should work too, but
> I wouldn't try it, it will make you super anxious and
> can give you a hypertensive crisis. I really would try
> to do an add-on to wellbutrin to lower the anxiety first.
> I personally know someone on this group recently
> who was very jittery on Wellbutrin after getting
> a response, so much so his hands shook and he couldn't
> hold a cup. 1 week later he said he felt less anxious
> than when he started the medicine.
::::Anything that is messing with my alpha-2 is what is giving my SD. That's why Yohimbine works so well. It is an Alpa-2 antagonist. Wellbutrin is no more!!! BTW, the Klonopin works great! I took 2.5mg this morning and lasted all day after quitting Wellbutrin cold-turkey. I don't have to worry about seizures from the sudden stoppage because the Klonopin has anti-seizure properties. And is wonderful for my anxiety!! I can't wait till I get my Jumex and my sexual performace back up to par. Did you read the posts I put of of Adam in this thread??? I hope it works in me just like it sis in him. I think I know my solution and I'm going to go through with it. But you seem to know your stuff so write back and let me know what you think after having me post this!!! I thank you for your help!!! Please respond people! Personal experiences? -Jason911
>
> -John
>
>
>
>
> > I have been on Wellbutrin for 3 months!!! 300mg/day didn't work and finally at 450mg/day it is starting to take effect, it's been like 9 days or so on this. I'm beginning to feel better but WAY more anxiety attacks. Klonopin is up to 2.5mg/day recently and.... well let be back up a step. When I was on the 300mg/day dose, a few weeks ago (since I was prescribed .5mg clonazepam for sleep/anxiety) I took 2mg of Klonopin at once and for that one day I felt amazing!!! My anxiety was gone I felt relaxed, I felt normal. The Wellbutrin hadn't seemed to work at all until the recently added increase to 450/mg a day. And either I need to up the Klonpin dosage or I'm stopping the Wellbutrin. I know that Wellbutrin only midly binds the DA uptake and actually diminishes it's release! I am confident that selegiline will help with Klonopin and NO Wellbutrin. People in past posts were worried about Wellbutrin+Klono+Deprenyl and seizure risk.. but Klonopin has anti-seizure benefits, so that wouldn't be a problem. Anyway, I am going to stop the Wellbutrin and go on the selegiline. Even if the 5mg/day (which WILL inhibit MAO-B) doesn't have an extreme dopaminergic effect..the PEA levels should make me feel alert, sexually stimulated, while the Klonopin acts to ease my anxiety. Just read this post my a guy named Adam:
> >
> >
> > " First off, a disclaimer: I've only done a cursory
> > browsing of the Selegeline posts.
> > As I mentioned in another thread, my pdoc
> > (surprisingly) gave me Selegeline for Social
> > Anxiety, after Nardil quickly pooped out but
> > created troublesome, long-lasting side effects.
> > The Selegeline was a total bust after four weeks
> > (at 15mg). No reduction whatsoever in my Social
> > Phobia (BTW, I am not clinically depressed).
> >
> > There WERE some pleasant (!) side effects, such as
> > increased libido and intensified sexual sensations
> > (nice!), as well as some needed (mild) lowering of
> > my blood pressure. No bad side effects.
> >
> > But since there was zilch improvement in the
> > Social Anxiety, I went off the Selegeline (Cold
> > Turkey's O.K. at 15 mg), and insisted he let me
> > try Klonopin (currently 2mg/day). Fairly
> > promising results after about a week. But then I
> > suggested (to my rather perplexed pdoc) that I add
> > back some low-dose Selegeline for mildly
> > hypotensive effects and possible sexual/cognitive
> > effects...and WOW! I don't know if this will
> > last, but the Social Phobia is virtually gone; my
> > confidence and concentration are currently through
> > the roof (despite minimal sleep of late, owing to
> > ultra-busy-ness, NOT insomnia or mania), libido
> > sky-high, and BP down (though not quite
> > enough...may move from 5mg. to 10mg. of
> > Selegeline...still low enough to avoid the MAOI
> > food restrictions...OR add pindolol...but I'm
> > afraid to mess with such success!) Of course,
> > Selegeline's fabled life-extension and
> > brain-protection qualities don't hurt either. I
> > probably shouldn't have written this; I'm rarely
> > superstitious, but for some reason I'm afraid I'll
> > jinx the wonderfully effective combination I
> > concocted!
> >
> > Maybe Selegeline works best for augmenting other
> > meds in mental problems, just as it serves as a
> > levodopa (sp?) potentiator for Parkinson's. Just
> > a thought. (As always, YMMV) Of course, your
> > doctor would have to carefully assess any possible
> > adverse reactions/dangerous combinations.
> >
> > In any event, I'm excited about the
> > Klonopin/Selegeline combo. Has anyone else used
> > this for Social Anxiety, or have I discovered a
> > "magic combo"? "
> >
> > >>> Well, there you have it. It took a while till the real solution was found. I think this will be the same in my case. Wellbutrin does nothing but cause anxiety. 1 pill of Yohimbe Fuel (8mg yohimbine) causes the same effects in me and I don't want all that Wellbutrin crap in my system. It's just making more and more anxiety filled!!!! I hate it!!!!! My pdoc is an idiot. He refuses to prescribe selegiline so I've ordered it myself. I'm going off the Wellbutrin. Period. I've made up my mind. And I've also made up my mind that Klonopin is the best anti-anxiety med in the nation but has only one drawback... short-term memory effects. That's where Jumex comes into play. And I wouldn't mind the sexual benefits as my sex drive has been pretty much crappy. I want to have sex and everything but my body won't cooperate when the anxiety kicks in. I know I don't have physical ED. I think the PEA will fix that right up. I'm going to add a regimine of 600mg phenylalanine (converts to PEA), Vitamin B6 (helps convert phenylalanine to PEA), and PEA is rapidly broken down by MAO-B which deprenyl inhibits. I feel it in my bones... I HAVE FOUND THE SOLUTION. But it'll take 3 weeks for the Jumex to arrive... damn. -Jason911
poster:Jason911
thread:95046
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020222/msgs/95276.html