Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 37856

Shown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:

 

Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain

Posted by jupiter on June 20, 2000, at 9:03:48

In reply to Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by jupiter on June 19, 2000, at 22:59:01

Hi all: thank you for the responses. Its morning now but still not feeling any better. Husband got up and went to work without saying a word to me. It's just that we keep going through this. I'm ok for a while with the sex but then for no apparent reason I just shut down. I feel good and want him to touch me and we have good sex but only for a while, it never lasts much more than a month at a time sometimes less but the frigidity lasts for months and sometimes years. I know it upsets him but all he says is he understands and he'll be patient but that makes it worse you know? I don't work so he is the one who pays the bills and does the yard work and drives me around and buys the groceries etc. I feel so so awful when I can't give him the one thing he wants, love. What's wrong with me?

P.S. Is it possible that meds kind of become inactive for a while and then kick back in again in the cycle of depression?

 

Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain

Posted by dj on June 20, 2000, at 9:13:37

In reply to Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by shar on June 20, 2000, at 1:16:14

> Jupiter,

> You are the only one who knows when you'll be ready to venture into that area again. Let me encourage you at least not to push your husband away (if you can feel ok about hugging him, etc.).
>
> I think you should respond to your husband to the extent that you genuinely can, talk with him, and tell him how you feel about his love and kindness. Don't let imperfection stop you if you can help it--I'm sure you know what a double-edged sword perfectionism is.
>

Good advice from someone who has been there. Your description stirred some sadness in me, as it reminded me of an ex-girlfriend. Though we had a strong attraction to each other, which other folks remarked upon, there was so much mutual pain and mis-understaning on each side that it overode the joys we had shared as communications detiorated and we both turned asise and inside as the relationship detiorated and eventually blew apart and led me into some intense therapy...

I found the book: Return to Love by Marianne Williamson helpful in making some sense of my very confused feelings, at the time and her tapes as well. She speaks very eloquently about depression and some of the damaged relationships she's experienced and learned from...

The book "Undoing Depression" (http://www.undoingdepression.com) is also very good on depression and relationships and cutting through some of the jargon, diverse and contrasting theory and politics of psychological and psychiathric practitioners.

On page 92 of the hard back edition he notes: "The patient often must also change patterns of behaviour that lead to a depressed lifestyle. Most depressed people are perfectionists. We feel that if we don't do a job perfectly, our entire self-esteem is endangered. Often this leads to procrascination. The job is never really begun; outright failure is avoided but the depressive knows he's let himself down."

The following explanation about projection and projective identification certainly rang true for me, for the relationship noted above, and my ex and a friend who went through a similar situation and I imagine it may for you too:

"Two additional defense mechanisms...that contribute to problems in communication are projection and projective identification. Projection means that I take my feelings, disconnect them from my conscious awareness, and attribute them to you. "You really want to fight, don't you?" People who are very thin-skinned overuse projection. They take their own bad feelings about themselves and project them onto others, seeing themselves as victims of discrimination and collecting grievances everywhere. Projective identfication...occurs, when, as a result of your projection, I really do want to fight. I catch the feeling you attribute to me. The projector and the recipient can get bound together in horribly complex webs of feeling from which there seems to be no escape.

Like all defences, projection and projective identification are attempts to resolve a conflict between our needs, our fears (or our conscience), the expectations of others, and/or the strictures of reality. I need love and intimacy but I can fear it as well. If I let someone get close, I can be hurt. I can take that fear and project it, making anyone who comes close to me seem to be nosy, controlling, officious. Projection and projective identification can distort reality to a destructive, uncomfortable degree. And because they are so much a part of how we communicate in relationships, and because in human interactions things happen so fast that we can easily get confused, these defenses are less subject to reflective analysis than denial, isolation, or repression.

...When I assume I understand you without sufficient basis in reality, the cause can be either projection or projective identification. I think I can read your mind. I become convinced that I know what you really mean, despite all your attempts at claification. If I keep accusing you of really being angry at me, eventually you really will get angry at me. That's projective identification."

When I assume that you understand me, it's also a process of projection. When I become hot and bothered because I feel convinced I've made my wishes clear and you just stubbornly refuse to understand, I'm not communicating anything except my stubborness. These irrational sensations of knowing with perfect clarity exactly what the other person is thinking are sure indications of projection. They're fueled by emotions, not logic.

What we have to do, naturally, is check our assumptions."

Hang in there and make sure you get whatever help you need! Pills though useful can also have negative impacts as noted in the book "Prozac Backlash" where the author, Harvard Medical School's Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, makes the case for good therapy being the real key to dealing core issues and moving beyond them.

Carl Jung said that our “Psychic Scar”
may be our greatest gift. The challenge is to uncover and embrace that gift!

Sante!

dj

 

Re: I know EXACTLY what you mean.... » jupiter

Posted by CarolAnn on June 20, 2000, at 9:18:23

In reply to Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by jupiter on June 19, 2000, at 22:59:01


Jupiter, I am right where you are now. I love my husband dearly, and I know he loves me even more, yet all I want is to be left alone. I can't stand for him to touch me, hug me, ect. And, sex is so far from my mind that I wouldn't want to do it even if my husband suddenly turned into my favorite sexy movie star!
Like you, I don't want to hurt him. My husband is the most loving, kind, and considerate person I have ever known, and he certainly does not deserve to bear the brunt of my pain. So, what to do!?! Well, this may not help your situation, but back when I was single, I was involved in community theater. I took a lot of acting classes and did a lot of shows. I never in a million years would have thought that my acting ability would be put to use in this way, but that is exactly how I cope. I "act" happy to have his hugs and kisses. If it's been more then a week, I "act" like I want to have sex, (sometimes I even get lucky and actually end up enjoying it). I'm sorry I don't have better advise, and can't help any other way.
"Acting" (as often as I can stand to) the part of loving wife, is the least my husband deserves and sometimes, I can't even do that much. But, I'm lucky, because he works hard at understanding what I'm going thru. He knows that I have bad times where I just don't have anything to 'give' (especially since I have a toddler). So, when he comes up behind me and pulls me into a big embrace, no matter how much I want to pull away, I think, "it will be over in a minute" and I 'act' cuddly, give him a peck on the cheek, and if it is taking too long, I "suddenly" remember something that has to be done right now, and make my escape.
I read somewhere that if you "act" a certain way for a long period of time, it will eventually be a natural behavior. I hope so. Otherwise, I might go mad(well, even madder then I already am!)! I'm sorry if this doesn't really help you, but I thought I should, at least, share my way of coping with a husband who needs to feel loved.
Best of wishes to you! CarolAnn

 

Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain

Posted by jupiter on June 20, 2000, at 9:33:16

In reply to Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by dj on June 20, 2000, at 9:13:37

>On page 92 of the hard back edition he notes: "The patient often must also change patterns of behaviour that lead to a depressed lifestyle. Most depressed people are perfectionists. We feel that if we don't do a job perfectly, our entire self-esteem is endangered. Often this leads to procrascination. The job is never really begun; outright failure is avoided but the depressive knows he's let himself down."

Thank you dj--the above describes me to a T. You've really given me something to think about.

 

Re: » CarolAnn

Posted by jupiter on June 20, 2000, at 9:36:44

In reply to Re: I know EXACTLY what you mean.... » jupiter, posted by CarolAnn on June 20, 2000, at 9:18:23

Carolann: That is EXACTLY what I go thru everyday ov my life. Thank you for making me feel not so alone.

 

Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain

Posted by Ninafel on June 21, 2000, at 0:04:00

In reply to Re: » CarolAnn, posted by jupiter on June 20, 2000, at 9:36:44

> Carolann: That is EXACTLY what I go thru everyday ov my life. Thank you for making me feel not so alone.

I have been having a similar experience. I do find it to be true sometimes that if I "act" like I feel more loving than I initially feel, and touch my husband or smile at him or give him a hug, it does sometimes translate to actually feeling much more amorous and positive. Same with sex--if I think about how much I care for him and how wonderful he is and just say to myself, "I'll do it for him right now," quite often I get turned on, too. Prozac did lower my libido quite a bit, but I hear Effexor doesn't always have that effect. Plus the psychiatrist has some ideas (testosterone, estring, etc.) that I want to try to heighten my sexual desire again. The funny thing is, my libido went down quite a bit *before* I went on Prozac, so I know it wasn't just the SSRI.

BTW, I just started reading this board and went through all the postings for Effexor for almost a year. They were extremely helpful and I really appreciate everyone's input. I thought Cam in particular was very knowledgeable. What does he do for a living? Also, what are the posts I'm suddenly reading about him losing a child?! That is horrible! I tried to go back and look at the old posts to find out what happened, but couldn't find anything. Can someone tell me?

Nina

 

Re: I know EXACTLY what you mean.... » CarolAnn

Posted by claire 7 on June 21, 2000, at 8:50:29

In reply to Re: I know EXACTLY what you mean.... » jupiter, posted by CarolAnn on June 20, 2000, at 9:18:23

Interesting, CarolAnn. Once I was thinking about some acting techniques whereby the actor gets into character through outside artifacts...Say, putting on the clothes the character would wear, etc. I thought, "I wonder if I put on the outside attributes of a cheerful person (a smile, for starters)---would I become cheerful?" So I tried it. Went to town and did things, and tried to remember to smile. I definitely noticed a difference. For one thing, people smiled more at me, which made me feel good. And my own smile seemed to make itself felt inside. Unfortunately, I soon forgot about this experiment, and haven't repeated it. Thanks for reminding me of it.

 

To NINAFEL***********

Posted by tina on June 21, 2000, at 9:55:08

In reply to Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by Ninafel on June 21, 2000, at 0:04:00

Nina-There's a "previous periods" section at the top of this page. Go to the June 3rd period and near the bottom is a thread called Holiday Tragedy. You should be able to get all the facts from that.


> > Carolann: That is EXACTLY what I go thru everyday ov my life. Thank you for making me feel not so alone.
>
> I have been having a similar experience. I do find it to be true sometimes that if I "act" like I feel more loving than I initially feel, and touch my husband or smile at him or give him a hug, it does sometimes translate to actually feeling much more amorous and positive. Same with sex--if I think about how much I care for him and how wonderful he is and just say to myself, "I'll do it for him right now," quite often I get turned on, too. Prozac did lower my libido quite a bit, but I hear Effexor doesn't always have that effect. Plus the psychiatrist has some ideas (testosterone, estring, etc.) that I want to try to heighten my sexual desire again. The funny thing is, my libido went down quite a bit *before* I went on Prozac, so I know it wasn't just the SSRI.
>
> BTW, I just started reading this board and went through all the postings for Effexor for almost a year. They were extremely helpful and I really appreciate everyone's input. I thought Cam in particular was very knowledgeable. What does he do for a living? Also, what are the posts I'm suddenly reading about him losing a child?! That is horrible! I tried to go back and look at the old posts to find out what happened, but couldn't find anything. Can someone tell me?
>
> Nina

 

Re: Moves Moods Away from Sadness and Pain

Posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:30:11

In reply to Re: Night Moves Into Sadness and Pain, posted by jupiter on June 20, 2000, at 9:33:16

>
> Thank you dj--the above describes me to a T. >You've really given me something to think about.

Jupiter,

"Undoing Depression" is one of the books which really helped me get some solid context around many of the confusing views of depression out there. The reason it is very good is that Richard O'Connor looks at the varying ways depression is portrayed from both a personal and professional (he runs a mental health clinic, I believe, or did) vantage and relates what he learned from both perspectives without getting mired in one view or another.

There are other books cited on Dr. Bob's book link which are also very good. William Styron's "Darkness Visible", Marianne Williamson's "Return to Love" and Tracy Thompson's "The Beast: A Journey through Depression" were ones that I found particularly helpful as they are all very well written, and very informative from personal perspectives. The last one I suspect you might most relate to as she describes her relationship challenges from her perspective and how she worked through them. Marriane Williamson is also very good on relationships.

The following article was also seminal for me in providing perspective and eventually led to me doing the 'Disengaging Depression' program at the Haven (http://pdseminars.com) which this describes the thinking behind the origins of:

THOUGHTS OF DEPRESSION
. . . Judith Lemon

Depression is a subject that Joann Peterson and I kept coming back to when we spent her post recovery time together this past February. It had been on my mind since I had been diagnosed with diabetes in 1996. It was very current for Joann because she feared a slide into isolation or depression if her physical limitations precluded significant contact with friends and groups at Haven. The more we discussed our own individual fears,and our experiences with depressions, as well as our experiences as counsellors, it became clear that depression has many faces and is problematic to a large population. The more research I did into the subject, the more confusing the picture became. There were not only conflicting descriptions of what defined depression, but also a huge continuum of traditional treatments and alternative care interventions.

What did become clear was that whatever our own individual experiences were, we were not alone. At any given time at least 15 per cent of the general population suffers from some form of depression. Part of the difficulty in the diagnosis of depression is the fact that the word itself has bad press. I realized that over the years, I had always avoided seeing myself as "depressed." I preferred to think of myself as having a depressive personality style that affected my daily decisions; but, never would I label myself as "being depressed." Like so many others, in the word I felt the physical sense of rigidity and fixation.

William Styron, the author of Sophie's Choice, and who suffered from acute bouts of depression, states in his book Darkness Visible "When I was first aware that I had been laid low by the disease, I felt a need to register a strong protest against the word depression...it is a noun with a bland tonality and lacking any magisterial presence, used indifferently to describe an economic decline or a rut in the ground, a true wimp of a word for such a major illness. It slithers...innocuously through the language like a slug...I would lobby for a truly arresting designation 'Brainstorm', a veritable howling tempest in the brain."

Depression is alternatively expressed as an emotional illness, a physical disease or a process depending upon the background of the person describing it. However it is defined, it is a problem that has been misdiagnosed, mismanaged and where individuals are often mistreated. We do know that depression is not abnormal or crazy; it is not a bad mood, a phase of life, 'the blues' or getting old. Depression is more intense, it lasts longer and it significantly interferes with effective day to day functioning of the individual. The effect on the family can be equally devastating. Primary care physicians report that often, prior to the diagnosis of an individual's depression, the entire family will have an increase in illnesses and accidents.

Looking at its many faces, depression may begin with a clear or dramatic event or loss, or may be existential in nature. More often there is no obvious explanation or identifiable situation. For some the repressed energy that contributes to depression is linked back to pre-adolescence.

By depression I mean a freezing of life energy, isolation, an entrapment in old or faulty beliefs, a source of internalized anger, and often, incomplete grieving. These are manifested by withdrawal from contact and relationships, disruptions in patterns of appetite and sleeping, confusion or inability to focus or make clear decisions, increase in anxiety and/or fearfulness and sometimes suicidal thoughts. Abraham Lincoln said in the midst of his own depression "I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family there would not be one cheerful face on earth."

Current treatment modalities favour medications and sometimes brief, solution focused therapy. In talking about this with Joann Peterson and Linda Nicholls, we began to review the changes people made in residential groups that taught concepts of personal responsibility, addressed belief systems and added elements of breath, creativity, movement and enhanced contact with others in a personal, vulnerable way.

The three of us grew excited about creating a program at Haven that would offer these elements for people facing depression, as well as those living and working with it. We decided on a five day residential format what would begin in January 1998. The name of the workshop is Disengaging Depression and it will be offered three times during 1998.

Judith K. Lemon, MA CEAP, is a Certified Mental Health Counsellor, and the Director of the Employee Assistance Program in Bellingham Washington.

 

Further Moves in Disengaging Deperssion...

Posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:37:09

In reply to Re: Moves Moods Away from Sadness and Pain, posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:30:11

This is a description of the initial Disengaging Depression workshop, written by one of the facilitators:

DISENGAGING DEPRESSION

. . . Joann Peterson

Disengaging Depression, now a one year old workshop, is exciting --challenging beliefs and providing surprises for leaders and participants. The inaugural workshop had been accepted for a 'masters' level research project at UBC, and we thought there would be few surprises in the participants' responses to the questionnaires. We were stunned to discover that many of the twenty plus participants who signed up for the depression workshop would distance themselves from most of the questions related to symptoms and problems associated with depression!

The graduate student was frantic (her grade depended on a valid research design); we, then, brought the results out into the group for discussion. Was everyone there only to learn about depression and how it affected others?

In the halting, then progressively energized responsive dialogue that followed and continued to permeate much of the workshop, we discovered an immense amount of stigma attached to depression. So much fear, morality (good and bad judgements) and self criticism was attached to the diagnosis and symptoms that people would rather disclaim their pain and distress than acknowledge them directly, even though the research was handled in an anonymous manner.

I was intrigued with this reaction to a "mental health diagnosis" that is claimed to be responsible for significant pervasive emotional distress for people living, relating and working in today's fast paced world. At the end of the discussion, people volunteered to re-take the research questionnaire, and the results were manifestly different. However, we had launched that first workshop with an honesty and understanding that set the tone for the sequential workshops.

Then, we discovered that many people in both workshops had been "depressed" since early childhood, growing up with a profound experience of emptiness, helplessness, desolation and isolation. Such "anaclitic depression" usually began with actual problems in attachment, with real or emotional abandonment and a lack of stimulation that is often coupled with a. Usually beginning very early in life, it is different from a depression that emerges later in life in reaction to patterns of relating and engaging life. Identifying the differences was both reassuring and important for many.

We leaders proposed that depression is simplistically used as a noun, a "thing" or "object" and as a labelling diagnosis. As leaders, Linda Nicholls, Judy Lemon and I define depression as a process, an activity in which depression is used as a style of SELF- EXPRESSION and SOLUTION.

Questions asked: "What are my symptoms describing about me and my contact with people and the world? What is my depression serving in my life? What would I be doing if I weren't depressed?" In answering these questions, people struggled with issues of blame, victimhood, personal responsibility, abandoned boundaries, loss of faith and intimate contact, isolation and depression as a means of creating meaning. The groups struggled, pushed away and then gradually reclaimed the idea that in their depressing, they became so self focused that the impact upon others was primarily unrecognized. With this recognition, the topic of suicide was explored with pain, guilt, shame and, yes, excitement as old beliefs were challenged.

In the midst of all this, we moved and breathed. But as the workshop moved forward, we directly addressed breath, body and movement. Judy Lemon taught people some beginning ideas about Thought Field Therapy and soon the room was engaged with people tapping trigger points to shift areas of energetic impaction. This recently developed field of psychological intervention is very useful for people struggling with anxiety and depression.

Fun and music accompanied moving meditations; breath, voice and sound filled the air, and people began to reinhabit bodies that had been frozen in despair. Creativity reemerged with poignant poetry, clay work and many other forms of expression.

In the sharing and contact, we reemerged into life, reconnected and with more clarity about the role we had shaped to manifest depression in our lives. We learned so much in these first workshops. Participants still continue to contact us with very positive feedback about the impressive effects of workshop on their lives. .

Joann Peterson M.S.W.,A.C.S.W.,Dip.C. is Education Director of PD Seminars, leader and co-leader of a number of workshops, including "Disengaging Depression", Anger, Boundaries & Safety", "Clinical Interventions", "Effective Boundaries", "Mirroring", "Separation & Loss"

 

Wow DJ, Heavy Stuff

Posted by jupiter on June 21, 2000, at 12:36:33

In reply to Further Moves in Disengaging Deperssion..., posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 10:37:09

I have to admit dj that that article was a lot to swallow. I don't think I understood all of it though I have saved it on my computer to re-read later. Thank you for taking such an interest in my case eventhough you don't know me. It's very gratifying to have so many people care. I will take all of your suggesstions into consideration. Do you believe, as the authors do, that group therapy is more beneficial than single talk therapy? Or is it more like "the opinions expressed in this post do not necessarily reflect those of the authors or publishers"?

 

Re: Wow DJ, Heavy Stuff

Posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 17:32:35

In reply to Wow DJ, Heavy Stuff, posted by jupiter on June 21, 2000, at 12:36:33

> I have to admit dj that that article was a lot to swallow. I don't think I understood all of it ... Do you believe, as the authors do, that group therapy is more beneficial than single talk >therapy?

Jupiter,

It is a bit much to get one's head around, all at once. The value of good therapy is that it is a gradual process of learning and acceptance. I believe both individual and group therapy can be useful, both alone and in conjunction with each other as they can provide balance and perspective.

The challenge is to find supportive and empathetic yet challening groups and therapists with a balance of both because either extreme is just that and extreme and unbalanced. And we all have to sort out for ourselves, what the best methods and support mechanisms are given our own unique yet similar circumstances and resources. I believe balance is the key but if you are severely unbalanced sometimes you need to go from one extreme to the other to eventually come back to your centre.

I believe in the middle way and everything in moderation, including occassionally moderation. Good luck choosing your path with heart and mind combined and balancing each other...!!!

 

As with everything, YMMV

Posted by shar on June 22, 2000, at 18:21:37

In reply to Re: Wow DJ, Heavy Stuff, posted by dj on June 21, 2000, at 17:32:35

Jupiter, on this board "your mileage may vary." That's written up top by Dr. Bob. Very often, people can say two things in one post, and one will make a lot of sense to me, and the other makes none. Also, this is probably doubly true about meds--people have very different experiences with various meds.

I think one best part of this board is getting exposed to so many perspectives, whether we agree/disagree/feel neutral...This is a great place to learn and have the opportunity to even adopt some of the ideas to improve life.

DJ--I thought it was very interesting that in the Lemon article they found significant differences in depression that began in childhood vs. present time.

The part that just grabbed me was their description of "growing up with a profound experience of emptiness, helplessness, desolation, and isolation." Wow, it's like "This is Your Life" or something.

I am so glad that with therapy (single, group, focused-content seminars, etc.) and medication I am better than I was.

I also liked how the person you mentioned in the previous article thought depression needed another name. It has been co-opted over time, but to me, brainstorm is too active-sounding. I'd like something like "the invisible, paralyzing, suffocating black hood weighing 5,000 pounds" (just my experience). The Beast works for me too.

Jupiter, DJ, take care.
Shar

 

Milage, the BEAST, creativity ....

Posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:22:31

In reply to As with everything, YMMV, posted by shar on June 22, 2000, at 18:21:37

>
> DJ--I thought it was very interesting that in the Lemon article they found significant differences in depression that began in childhood vs. present time.
>

Shar, in their book "The (New) Manual For Life" (which I'll note more on below) Bennet Wong and Jock McKeen (who I will note more on below) make some very good distinctions about types of depression and how we all have our own unique 'algorithm' for that and other dis-eases, which is why the milage varies...

> The part that just grabbed me was their description of "growing up with a profound experience of emptiness, helplessness, desolation, and isolation." Wow, it's like "This is Your Life" or something.
>

Rang true with me too. I was in that workshop but the first article, my situation at the time and the Haven's very good reputation and close proximity attracted me to it.


> I also liked how the person you mentioned in the previous article thought depression needed another name. It has been co-opted over time, but to me, brainstorm is too active-sounding. I'd like something like "the invisible, paralyzing, suffocating black hood weighing 5,000 pounds" (just my experience). The Beast works for me too.
>

Willian Styron - "Darkness Visible" - a heckuva writer and a heck of an insightful book!

Winston Churchill grappled with the Beast and he may have been the one who described it as such. Abraham Lincoln also was plagued by it and was a better leader for it, due to his acute sensitivity as with Churchill.

In the "Disengaging Depression" workshop as in the book "Undoing Depression" there is an emphasis put on creativity as a way out from under the Beast. We used clay to model our images of the Beast when I participated, with some amazing results, one of which lingers on my desk shelf.

Sante!

dj

 

The (New) Manual For Life - almost forgot...

Posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:27:45

In reply to As with everything, YMMV, posted by shar on June 22, 2000, at 18:21:37

The (New) Manual For Life
Bennet Wong and Jock McKeen

This is a completely revised new edition based on the original book A Manual For Life; for those familiar with the previous volume, you will find this book more readable, and much expanded to include considerable amounts of new information.

This book is a carefully written synthesis of idea systems and perspectives that provide humanistic approaches to personal and professional development. Practical and thought provoking, this book challenges the reader to assess, ponder, consider, and arrive at more thoroughly established personal beliefs. A partial list of topics includes: boundaries, anger, anxiety, guilt and shame, strength and power, self-esteem, entitlement, transference, objectification, morality, sexuality, intimacy, relationships, loving, energy, western and eastern medicine, the helping relationship, allergies, therapy and education, and creation-centered spirituality.

FROM THE FORWARD: "In the work of their own lives, Wong and McKeen have simply moved beyond the tedious debates that have separated the various schools of thought. Through their courage to confront the 'isness' of their own experience they have detached themselves from the closed world views of philosophical prescriptions and, in their commitment to the integrity of their own truth, they have avoided the 'rightness' and 'wrongness' of academic psychologizing. Above all, within their own relationship, they have created a living experimental laboratory with standards of discipline and rigor capable of intimidating even the most zealous scientist-practitioner." Gerry Fewster, Ph.D. - Editor, Journal of Child and Youth Care

348 pages, 6"x9" soft cover ISBN# 0-9696755-4-2 $22 Canadian (plus taxes)

http://www.pdseminars.com/PD_Publishing/pdpub.html#A Manual For Life

Bennet Wong, M.D., F.R.C.P.(c) received his psychiatric training at the Menninger School of Psychiatry. Jock McKeen, M.D., Lic.Ac.(UK) studied at the College of Chinese Acupuncture, Oxford, England. Since retiring from medical practice, Ben and Jock together have blended an in-depth approach to self-development aimed at integration of the individual in body, mind and spirit, emphasizing responsibility for the self in health, relationships and lifestyle. They are the founders and co-Directors of PD Seminars at Haven By-the-Sea, a licensed residential educational center in the Gulf Islands of British Columbia, on the west coast of Canada.

In their 25 years of professional association together, they have been feature presenters at conferences and workshops around the world. They have travelled and taught extensively in Asia, and bring an ease with cross-cultural approaches to their work. In recent years, they have begun to lecture in Eastern Europe. Consultants to many agencies, corporations and groups, they have a wide experience in working with people in a variety of contexts. They have both served on the boards of major corporations.

Most of their approach has been derived from their intense investigation of their own relationship, as well as their experiences with their clients. In their unique, personable way, they create an atmosphere of intimacy and trust in which each person is able to transform in his or her own fashion.

In addition to their numerous articles in professional journals, they wrote "The Transpersonal Experience Through Body Approaches," a chapter in Transpersonal Psychotherapy (Science and Behavior Press, 1980). They co-authored A Manual for Life (PD Publishing, 1992) and collaborated on a collection of Jock's poems, with commentaries by Ben, in As It Is In Heaven (PD Publishing, 1993). More recent books include In And Out Of Our Own Way, (PD Publishing 1995) and The Relationship Garden (PD Publishing 1996).

 

Re: Milage, the BEAST, creativity ....

Posted by Janice on June 22, 2000, at 22:43:17

In reply to Milage, the BEAST, creativity ...., posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:22:31

hi dj

is William Styron the American journalist working in Toronto who suffered so terribly from depression. if so, I read that book, and yes it was great. I have to admit what I remember now, other than that I enjoyed it, is how passive he was about trying to get rid of his depression.

About Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln - I've think I've seen them both listed as having manic depression, depression and ADD (not Lincoln for ADD). Every mental illness must want them as their posterboys, or maybe it's just hard to diagnose someone after they die.

janice

ps. Glad those people helped you. wish I could find my Wong & Mc(i forget).

 

dj

Posted by harry b. on June 22, 2000, at 22:54:46

In reply to The (New) Manual For Life - almost forgot..., posted by dj on June 22, 2000, at 20:27:45

dj-
Just want to say I'm glad you are back, however
long that may be. I believe I had just found PB
as you were leaving in Jan or Feb.

I like your style and your informative posts. I will
get The (New) Manual For Life.

Thanks
hb

 

hb et al...

Posted by dj on June 23, 2000, at 7:48:47

In reply to dj, posted by harry b. on June 22, 2000, at 22:54:46

Name: hb
E-mail address: (not given, or invalid)
Language: English

> dj-
> Just want to say I'm glad you are back, however
> long that may be... I like your style and your informative posts. I will
> get The (New) Manual For Life.
>
> Thanks
> hb
Thank you hb for that kind acknowledgment. I'm just sharing some of what I've learned from my own experience, and continue to learn as I integrate it all which this helps me do. Having had some time to reflect I can put it into a better persepective now, than when I was in the midst of working through a lot of it.

This a.m. I am going to have coffee with a counsellor, and his wife, who I enlisted to help me out last year for a couple of my more challenging months. Both he and my subsequent PD encouraged me to pursue further studies in counselling at the Haven, which is offers a Diploma in Counselling because of my obvious interest in the issues and affinity for it and my love of what they do and who they are there.

Don't know that I will pursue that option, as I am exploring some other interests, however you never know. If you are open to all, all is open to you. Some of us just have to work a bit harder at it at times.

As Richard O'Connor wrote in "Undoing Depression":

"Depressed people work harder at living than anyone else, although there is little payoff for our effort. But in the course of our hard work, we become very good at certain skills. We are like weight lifters who concentrate
exclusively on upper body strength - massive muscles in the arms and trunk but little spindly legs underneath - easy to knock down.

Depression permeates every aspect of ourselves, but we can free ourselves by consciously deciding to do things differently. People get good at
depression - they overadapt and develop skills that, at best, just keep them going, and often make things worse". (page 72)

I've been working at changing that unbalance for myself to create more balance in my life and outlook and the Haven has helped me considerably as have the discussions here at PB. I only hope and trust that others will have similar experiences through whatever approach works best for them. The challenge is to stay curious and keep learning and adapting and to not just rely on one resource or approach.

It's been said that if you have only a hammer everything looks like a nail, as is how I see dependance purely on AntiDepressants. They have their place but so do alternative and other mainstream approachs. Good luck in finding the balance for yourself.

How long I will linger this time I'm uncertain but I'm happy to share what I've learned and continue to learn while I'm here. The Manual for Life will give you much more food for thought from a couple of truly personal professionals who've been researching and exploring the roots of health and dis-ease much longer and more thoroughly than I. And if you can afford it, at some time, a session with them or someone of their calibre is time and money well invested in yourself.

Last year I did the 5 day "Come Alive" workshop with them twice, and it has made a world of difference in my outlook, though it took a while to integrate. And once I get some money and other issues sorted out I may be back to do their Phase program, which allows one to more deeply explore one's own algorithms for life.

Sante!

dj

 

Re: Milage, the BEAST, creativity ....

Posted by dj on June 23, 2000, at 8:03:39

In reply to Re: Milage, the BEAST, creativity ...., posted by Janice on June 22, 2000, at 22:43:17

> About Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln - I've think I've seen them both listed as having manic depression, depression and ADD (not Lincoln for ADD). Every mental illness must want them as their posterboys, or maybe it's just hard to diagnose someone after they die.
>
> janice
>
> ps. Glad those people helped you. wish I could find my Wong & Mc(i forget).
Good luck finding your Wong & McKeen - Gabriola Island isn't so far from Calgary, closer than China or even T.O., you know and the prices there are pretty reasonable when you consider room and board are included. And for those with American dollars it's that much cheaper...However in the end we heal ourselves, by getting out of our own way, and anyone else just helps facilitate that process by being caring, compassionate, observant and thoughtful enough.

Part of healing, I believe, is letting go of all these labels we and others try to pin on ourselves and realizing we are only human. The labels have their time and place but they are only labels and we are what we are, uniquely ourselves yet jointly human with all the frailities that entails and our own add-ons. One I believe is clinging to images of ourselves as dys-functional (a word that makes me cringe as do most diss words).

The author you referred to above is John Bentley Mays who wrote: "In the Jaws of the Black Dog: A Memoir of Depression", and interesting description of his experiences growing up in the South and gradually realizing his depression and dealing with it. Styron's "Darkness Visible" (see Dr. Bob's "Read" page or http://www.amazon.com)is briefer, better written (he's an acclaimed and award winning American author) book, which moved me more.

Sante!

dj

 

Re: Name that Depression » shar

Posted by noa on June 23, 2000, at 8:40:04

In reply to As with everything, YMMV, posted by shar on June 22, 2000, at 18:21:37

>brainstorm is too active-sounding. I'd like something like "the invisible, paralyzing, suffocating black hood weighing 5,000 pounds" (just my experience). The Beast works for me too.


Sometimes, it feels like a "brainstorm" as described by Styron. This is when I am depressed and flooded by intense emotion and simultaneous cognitive confusion. Sometimes, it is more of a Black Hole, with ultra powerful gravity force, pulling everything deep deep inside, locking everything in forever, an ultra dense object of badness and hopelessness that I am stuck in. The "beast" concept, for me is a monster. When I am starting to feel better, the depression is a monster, and I am terrified of it attacking me again. I am learning to use this conceptualization/visualization---of the depression monster ---as a tool to try to see the depression and my self as distinct entities. With the black hole model, I am the black hole, it is me. When I can see the depression as outside my self, I can feel more in control, and hopeful for change.

 

Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival .... » dj

Posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 0:31:09

In reply to Re: Milage, the BEAST, creativity ...., posted by dj on June 23, 2000, at 8:03:39

DJ Wrote:
> Part of healing, I believe, is letting go of all these labels we and others try to pin on ourselves and realizing we are only human. The labels have their time and place but they are only labels and we are what we are...

DJ, I believe that one reason we have such a hard time letting go of labels or behaviors is that they have often been survival techniques. Usually, from early childhood, and in response to a threat we were truly powerless to deal with at that time.

So, it is doubly hard to let go of some things because they can make us feel intensely vulnerable when they are gone. And, there has to be something to put in its place. For me to give up just a few of these ideas has taken years of therapy, and meds to keep me out of the pit long enough to work in therapy.

I say it is a good goal to become aware of the self-destructive things we do and thoughts we have, but people shouldn't feel pressured if they just can't "let go" immediately. Anything one learns, any modification of behavior, warrants a celebration.

We are survivors, as screwed up as we may be. Today those survival behaviors may not serve us well. So, we can become aware of them, and step by step, as long as it takes, let go of them and feel stronger and whole.

(I like to call the "we are who we are" the Popeye Revelation: I yam what I yam.)

Namaste,
S

 

Re: Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival ....

Posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 9:42:00

In reply to Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival .... » dj, posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 0:31:09

> So, it is doubly hard to let go of some things because they can make us feel intensely vulnerable when they are gone. And, there has to be something to put in its place. For me to give up just a few of these ideas has taken years of therapy, and meds to keep me out of the pit long enough to work in therapy.
>
> I say it is a good goal to become aware of the self-destructive things we do and thoughts we have, but people shouldn't feel pressured if they just can't "let go" immediately. Anything one learns, any modification of behavior, warrants a celebration.
>
> We are survivors, as screwed up as we may be.

Sher,

I agree with you overall that it is challenging to let go of labels, thoughts and feelings which we cling to as identifiers and wayposts and deal with the void, without avoiding it. I'm attempting to put forth a perspective which is informed by much exposure to Buddhist concepts and other spiritual sources, though I am an agonostic, though drawn to the wisdom that I see in these writings and peoples.

The overall perspective, as I understand it, is all about looking closely at ourselves and the systems we are entangled in (and a good counsellor or friend can help here) and working on letting go of clinging to judgements - good, bad or indifferent. Just being and not condemning our beings, because it is the clinging to the ways we are - happy or sad, estatic or depressed -which leads to the suffering.

Being open to the possibilities of change, which are always happening and the beauty which can be found even when we are in pain. Challenging but possible...and good therapy can take you there, and meditative practices can help according to scientific research. So even if I'm not okay, that's okay.

All, easier said than done, particularly when our brains and our bodies are under internal and external chemical and societial assault. So, yes we are all survivors! And we are all in the same boat together so the challenge is to find ways to be kind to and celebrate ourselves and each other, even when we don't feel like it. Then it becomes even more challenging and even more rewarding, because we've experienced the extremes of pain and pleasure. And shall again...perhaps...

Namaste!

Duncan

 

Re: Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival ....

Posted by harry b. on June 24, 2000, at 10:35:52

In reply to Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival .... » dj, posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 0:31:09

> DJ Wrote:
> > Part of healing, I believe, is letting go of all these labels we and others try to pin on ourselves and realizing we are only human. The labels have their time and place but they are only labels and we are what we are...
>


I admit that my conception of my identity, (instead
of being a pilot, sailor, engineer, sexual being,
loving & compassionate soul, cynic, apathetic,
loner, sometimes creative, passionate, spiritual,
open, and forgiving, sometimes angry, hatefull and
mean spirited, sometimes sure of myself, most
times doubtful and afraid, ie: a human being), is
that I am ill and a depressive.

The labels become comfortable after a while. They
can be used as an excuse or to justify any behavior.

As dj said, they have their time and place. They
are, I think, needed to define (inaccurate term, I
know) the impairment (another inaccurate term). At
some point, I hope, the labels must be discarded
or at least integrated. That point, for me, will
be when and if I ever achieve a state of self-realization,
self acceptance, self integration, and HOPE.

Hope is the essence. Without the hope or belief
that healing is possible, all else is futile.

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimulated"
(sorry, couldn't resist)

I don't have much hope right now. I'm slowly recovering
from my 3rd major depressive episode, and this one
has been/is the worst to date. I am on a quest for
hope, maybe that quest is a form of hope, but I can't
view it that way.
hb


 

Re: Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival ....

Posted by dj on June 24, 2000, at 15:33:54

In reply to Re: Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival ...., posted by harry b. on June 24, 2000, at 10:35:52

> As dj said, they have their time and place. >They are, I think, needed to define (inaccurate > term, I know) the impairment (another
> inaccurate term). At some point, I hope, the
> labels must be discarded or at least >integrated. That point, for me, will be when and >if I ever achieve a state of self-realization,
> self acceptance, self integration, and HOPE.
>
> Hope is the essence. Without the hope or belief
> that healing is possible, all else is futile.
Harry,

Well noted! I've come to believe that it is even deeper than hope, it is faith that there is some deeper meaning behind this even when it is hard to see or feel because of the pain we are experiencing. The hope and faith can take one beyond the pain and alleviate and lessen suffering, though not necessarily eliminate it.

Terry Waite was the Archibishop of Canterbury's special envoy who was held captive in Lebanon for 1,763 days. In his book about his experience: "Taken on Trust" he quotes, in the wrap-up, these words which were written on the wall of a cellar where in which a victim of Hitler's persecution hid and died:
"I believe in the sun even when it is not shining.
I believe in love where feeling is not.
I believe in God even if he is silent."

Many tales of people who have survived such manmade or medical atrocities helps me find the faith which has often faltered, particularly when I've been experiencing another seemingly inexplicable wave of deep anxiety, despair and/or depression, which I've done on many occassions in major ways. And yet I've managed to come through it all and hopefully will do so again or not even go down those roads or at least less so... Without faith in myself and my fellow beings and the core righeneouss of whatever inexplicable cosmic pattern governs all, I am lost.

And I am also lost if I don't dig deeply into my own experiences, familiarize myself with my own patterns and see what I can do to improve them an do it as I have been doing and continue to do, as I learn to trust and forgive myself more deeply and practice that compassion with myself and others, actively no matter what.

Sante!

dj

 

Mileage, BEAST, creativity, survival, HOPE » harry b.

Posted by shar on June 24, 2000, at 15:43:40

In reply to Re: Mileage, the BEAST, creativity--and survival ...., posted by harry b. on June 24, 2000, at 10:35:52

Harry,

I think you are on track with identifying all of "this" as a quest. And, to me, a quest is intrinsically hopeful. I believe that when we have no hope we don't move forward, we are not looking for anything...we surrender, and are paralyzed.

I have always liked the idea of looking at life as a journey, or as a quest. I think that implies some choice in the paths we choose through our lives. Whether we choose to let our depression immobilize us, or if we will, instead, try to find a way to feel better, and continue to move forward.

I don't feel particularly hopeful most of the time. That is, I am not an optimist. But I know that every time I go to therapy, every time I talk to my pdoc, every time I take my meds, it is a Manifestation of hope.

I believe the same about you. You may not consciously feel hopeful that the future will be bright, but your behaviors are those of a person who chooses a path to wellness. I think that is hope inside of you.

Just my (verbose) opinion. You are working hard right now! I hope you see the progress as you make it.

Take care!
Shar


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