![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 37 to 61 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by TamaraJ on March 2, 2005, at 14:01:29
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 1, 2005, at 21:48:45
> Hi,
>
> > Sorry I didn't remember you saying that about your fathers mood swings. My memory isn't the greatest these days (and doxepin doesn't help that either). So it sounds like you might be open to the possibility that you may have some bipolarity. We're probably on the same page on this one - we think there may be some of that or else it's hormonal. I think that if your doctor was going by the old definitions of bipolar illness then neither of us would qualify but the newer definitions include so much more than the extremes of depression and hypomania. The only symptom I have is that I get periods of agitation that aren't related to what's going on my life. That was enough for my pdoc to think I might benefit from adding a mood stabilizer.
>
-- I get the agitation as well. Sometimes I am so agitated that I feel like I could crawl out of my skin. The other thing I get, at times, is this extreme impatience. I keep it all inside, but sometimes I feel like I will explode. Like when I am in the grocery store or at the mall or walking along the sidewalk, and people are walking slow and cutting me off, etc., in my mind I am yelling one expletive after another.
> > >
> You're not a fraud! You did what you thought was best at the time. You probably hadn't even fully admitted to yourself the extent of your problem. That's a fairly normal response. You probably figured you wouldn't make too many waves and get the problem fixed in the meantime. Unfortunately it was harder to fix that you had anticipated. Besides, most people don't tell their supervisors the full scoop because they're concerned about their jobs. You can explain to your pdoc the next time you see him what the story is and how much more severe you think the problem is than you dared to admit.
>
-- I talked to him today. I don't think he had planned to call me back. But, I had called the office to make a follow-up appointment and he answered the phone (weird). We had a nice talk, and he has prescribed Nortriptyline. I couldn't believe it. He said I could try it, altough he doesn't think it is any different than Anafranil.> Cancelling an appointment and failing to make another one quickly are not grounds for being fed up with you and not calling you back!! If he has any compassion at all, he should be able to see that you're struggling right now and that you need his help. I can't stand most of these doctors and their egos. Also, if you have to fight tooth and nail just to get basic treatment, then maybe you're better off elsewhere anyway. If he doesn't call you back, then let him handle the people who are fine just taking the latest SSRI and who won't ask for anything more than that from him.
>
-- I think part of the problem was his former secretary. She could be quite rude and controlling at times. He is actually quite nice, but he finds it difficult to treat over the phone. I suppose I can understand, but body language is only one aspect of a diagnosis. When we talked about a new AD or re-trying Anafranil, he said what about Effexor. I reminded him that I had tried it for about 6 months and experienced severe night sweats, myclonus, apathy and some increased anxiety. In all fairness to him, he had forgotten and didn't have my file in front of him.
>
> Yikes, that headache sounds horrible! Yes, I can see why you'd be scared. I was picturing a dull kind of an ache but it sounds much worse than that. That would definitely be hard to take on a full time basis! I hope that goes away. Yes, it does take a toll when we keep experiencing failures. You have responded in the past and I've had at least a partial response so we're not completely treatment resistant. It's just a matter of finding the right medicine or combo of meds and hopefully we can tolerate them. Did you read any of the post on the rEEG or QEEG diagnostics? This kind of brain mapping shows the doctors what is actually going on in the brains of depressed people. They then compare your pictures to those of people who have had success on certain meds. The doctors had less guesswork this way and they had much more success (I can't remember the exact figures) than doctors who just talked to people and then suggested meds. Of course then you still have to be able to tolerate the meds that they recommend. I thought it was fascinating reading about this and if I don't have much luck in the near future and I can get some health insurance, then I'm going to try to have this done. IMHO, time is too precious to waste much more of it trying things blindly.
>
-- The first headache kind of scared me because it was so piercing. But, they didn't last too long, so that was good. I haven't read the thread on rEEG. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check that one out. I agree, if there is something available that could take the guesswork out of prescribing meds, then people should be able to take advantage of it. I sometimes wonder if doctors realize how much one failed drug trial after another affects a person's outlook. I mean, it can be hard enough to deal with the start-up side effects, then only to find out 6 weeks later that you have not responded and have another med with its own side effects to try. I agree with you that time is too precious. Do you think that by moving in with your friend you will be able to get some insurance?
>
> If only these meds (Zoloft and Effexor) were stimulating when I took them before. I mean I wish that they had stimulated me to get going and get things done. I've also been reading about treatments that involve surgery and thinking for the first time that I might be desperate enough to try them - anything to make me feel like I want to get out of bed in the morning!
>
-- I saw part of a clip on the news last night or the night before about I think it must have been the Vagus Nerve Stimulator. That involved surgergy as well. The clip said that 8 of the 10 people who participated in the trial responded and are now depression free. That's encouraging.
>
> It would take most of my waking hours to do all of things that I want to treat my condition esp. considering that I am not able to get moving until several hours after I've woken up. It's probably unrealistic to assume that I'll be able to do all of the things I've listed but I have made progress and I think it's beginning to pay off. I have a long way to go however. I just hope I can keep the momentum going.
> > >
-- I think as long as you are making an effort and doing what you can, then that is progress. Take it one thing at a time. And, if it is beginning to pay off, then that is very encouraging and incentive to keep trying. I find sometimes I make this big list of things I want to do - yoga, join a gym, longer walks; dance class, book club, . . . And, then I just feel overwhelmed with everything I want to do that I don't do hardly any of it. So, I am starting to make smaller, more achievable goals -one or two things at a time (well, when I am feeling a bit better). I don't know about you, but I find I sometimes sabatoge myself by being over-ambitious and impatient for results.
>
> I hate that you have to worry about ticking off your doctor. We should be able to provide information and have some input in our own treatment. But realistically, you do have to appease him at least until you decide you want to go elsewhere. I wish you good luck if you try the clomipramine again and/or the aminos. I may try tryptophan or 5-htp myself soon. As for the MAOIs, I really like cheese too but I'd gladly trade that for a good antidepressant effect. It's my fear of hypertension and other side effects that has kept me from tyring them so far.
>
-- I surprised myself with him today. I was worried about ticking him off, but I stood my ground. And, he was very good about it. So, right now, I will try the nort with the Celexa. My stomach has finally settled down (again) so I don't know if I want to take any chances with the Provigil. Maybe once I have been on the nort for a while (if it works), I will try Provigil again. You may find the L-Trytophan may be worth a try. Jas seems to have had pretty good results with it, with the exception of some insomnia. I tried 5-HTP last summer for about a week or so at 50mg and it just left me feeling groggy and tired in the morning. I have never tried Tryptophan though. L-Tyrosine at a low dose may give you some energy, increase motivation and decrease apathy. Last fall I ordered a very low dose (250 mg) to trial. The first time I tried it, I was using 500mg, two or three times a day and it was a bit much. I think, if I try it again, a lower dose might be better tolerated. Like Larry always says - Start low and go slow. But, who knows, maybe you will be able to try a MAOI in the near future after you move in with your friend and have some extra money.
>
> Same to you. I find our talks very therapeutic.
>
-- I do as well. Take care, and I'll talk to you soon.Tamara
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 2, 2005, at 22:09:33
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 2, 2005, at 14:01:29
Hi,
> -- I get the agitation as well. Sometimes I am so agitated that I feel like I could crawl out of my skin. The other thing I get, at times, is this extreme impatience. I keep it all inside, but sometimes I feel like I will explode. Like when I am in the grocery store or at the mall or walking along the sidewalk, and people are walking slow and cutting me off, etc., in my mind I am yelling one expletive after another.
> > > >Yeah, I had the agitation, general anxiety, panic, morning trauma (upon awakening) and the impatience. It defies logic. We know there's no good reason to be that impatient but it's out of our control. I have to say that the doxepin has taken care of most of that. I'm still quite worried about the future but at least I can stand in line at the market and not freak out. I don't wake up in a panic anymore either. Once you get on the right medication, those problems will go away.
> -- I talked to him today. I don't think he had planned to call me back. But, I had called the office to make a follow-up appointment and he answered the phone (weird). We had a nice talk, and he has prescribed Nortriptyline. I couldn't believe it. He said I could try it, altough he doesn't think it is any different than Anafranil.
YAY!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! I hope that you prove him wrong and the nort. works out really well. I bet you'll be able to tolerate it better than the Anafranil. Just remember to get your blood tested to make sure that you are within the therapeutic window for that drug.
> -- I think part of the problem was his former secretary. She could be quite rude and controlling at times. He is actually quite nice, but he finds it difficult to treat over the phone. I suppose I can understand, but body language is only one aspect of a diagnosis. When we talked about a new AD or re-trying Anafranil, he said what about Effexor. I reminded him that I had tried it for about 6 months and experienced severe night sweats, myclonus, apathy and some increased anxiety. In all fairness to him, he had forgotten and didn't have my file in front of him.
You can't blame him for not remembering all of your details. He must treat many people and would be impossible to remember all of their histories. I'm glad he was nice about it and that he relented on the nort. Glad the nasty secretary is gone too. That profession needs a good, kind admin person more than any other I can think of!
> -- The first headache kind of scared me because it was so piercing. But, they didn't last too long, so that was good. I haven't read the thread on rEEG. Sounds interesting. I'll have to check that one out. I agree, if there is something available that could take the guesswork out of prescribing meds, then people should be able to take advantage of it. I sometimes wonder if doctors realize how much one failed drug trial after another affects a person's outlook. I mean, it can be hard enough to deal with the start-up side effects, then only to find out 6 weeks later that you have not responded and have another med with its own side effects to try. I agree with you that time is too precious. Do you think that by moving in with your friend you will be able to get some insurance?
Exactly why that rEEG sounds so good to me. Plus supposedly it can tell you if you need a mood stabilizer and, if so, which one would be best. It can recommend if augmenting with cytomel would be a good idea. It has the potential to save so much time for people if it's really as good as they're claiming.
I still won't have enough money to get health insurance. I need a job for that. It's very hard to buy insurance on your own here especially when you have a pre-existing condition. Depression is one of the major things that they try not to cover. Apparently they can't make a lot of money off of us so why bother giving us healthcare? It's just disgusting.
I went to see the house today. It wasn't quite as nice as I imagined it would be. It needs some work (some of the other houses my friend looked at were in tip top shape with brand new everything) so I was a bit disappointed by comparison. My friend isn't going to have the money to fix it up either. However it was still nice and it's in a quiet, beautiful gated community. There's a small gym just a short distance from the house. I hope I'm making the right move here. I think it's better than staying where I am but I'm concerned about so many things. It won't be easy to not have my own place anymore. Also, I really wish her taste weren't so awful and I'm so not up for a move right now. I can't help but feel sorry for myself that I'm going to be in a situation like this at my age rather than owning my own home and having it decorated nicely. OK, whining is over. It felt good to get that out though.
> -- I saw part of a clip on the news last night or the night before about I think it must have been the Vagus Nerve Stimulator. That involved surgergy as well. The clip said that 8 of the 10 people who participated in the trial responded and are now depression free. That's encouraging.I'm interested in that as well as a last hope kind of a measure since it involves invasive surgery. Jerrympl went through a trail of that. He didn't respond to it but he knew of others in the study who had great responses.
> -- I think as long as you are making an effort and doing what you can, then that is progress. Take it one thing at a time. And, if it is beginning to pay off, then that is very encouraging and incentive to keep trying. I find sometimes I make this big list of things I want to do - yoga, join a gym, longer walks; dance class, book club, . . . And, then I just feel overwhelmed with everything I want to do that I don't do hardly any of it. So, I am starting to make smaller, more achievable goals -one or two things at a time (well, when I am feeling a bit better). I don't know about you, but I find I sometimes sabatoge myself by being over-ambitious and impatient for results.
Same here. I make all kinds of lists and plans all of the time. Realistically I won't be able to do all of it but I'll try to do what I can and try not to get discouraged because I'm not able to do it all.
> -- I surprised myself with him today. I was worried about ticking him off, but I stood my ground. And, he was very good about it. So, right now, I will try the nort with the Celexa. My stomach has finally settled down (again) so I don't know if I want to take any chances with the Provigil. Maybe once I have been on the nort for a while (if it works), I will try Provigil again. You may find the L-Trytophan may be worth a try. Jas seems to have had pretty good results with it, with the exception of some insomnia. I tried 5-HTP last summer for about a week or so at 50mg and it just left me feeling groggy and tired in the morning. I have never tried Tryptophan though. L-Tyrosine at a low dose may give you some energy, increase motivation and decrease apathy. Last fall I ordered a very low dose (250 mg) to trial. The first time I tried it, I was using 500mg, two or three times a day and it was a bit much. I think, if I try it again, a lower dose might be better tolerated. Like Larry always says - Start low and go slow. But, who knows, maybe you will be able to try a MAOI in the near future after you move in with your friend and have some extra money.
I've tried 5-htp before. I think I only took 50mg. to help me sleep. It did that but created some stomach problems. I haven't tried the enteric coated version yet though. I tried a bit of tryptophan many years ago for sleep and don't remember much about it. I may try it again sometime soon. Also, I've tried l-tyrosine. I got up to about 3,200 mg. a day on an empty stomach but didn't notice a thing - not even jitteryness. I used a couple of different quality brands too. Something just wasn't happening with that. I may try DLPA again. I've only used it in small dosages and not for a long enough period to really judge it. It would be so great if I could get aminos to work for me. So much easier and no doctors need to be involved.
> -- I do as well. Take care, and I'll talk to you soon.
I am crossing my fingers that the nort. will work wonders for you. You deserve it!
Have you started cutting back on cigarettes or have you stopped cold turkey yet?
Uggh! It's raining again. I can't stand it!!!
Talk to you later.Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by TamaraJ on March 3, 2005, at 11:53:38
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 2, 2005, at 22:09:33
> Hi,
>
> >
> Yeah, I had the agitation, general anxiety, panic, morning trauma (upon awakening) and the impatience. It defies logic. We know there's no good reason to be that impatient but it's out of our control. I have to say that the doxepin has taken care of most of that. I'm still quite worried about the future but at least I can stand in line at the market and not freak out. I don't wake up in a panic anymore either. Once you get on the right medication, those problems will go away.
>
-- The morning panic/trauma is the worst. It's like - Oh crap, not again! It would be nice to wake up and at least have a couple of hours of peace of mind. I have found that taking magnesium (500mg) before bed has helped those feelings a bit. I'm glad for you that doxepin has helped you some. Even a small amount of relief is welcome, especially if the mornings have become a bit more tolerable. It's the impatience that I find the worst at times. I even have a hard time going shopping with anyone because I am so hyper and can get so impatient. I have to be able to zip into a store, take a quick scan, and leave when I realize there is nothing in there I am interested in. So many of my friends make shopping almost a sport! Puttering through the stores, purusing each and every rack, while I stand there thinking "there is nothing in here, let's go, go, go!" My friends and I go shopping in the States sometimes, and I try to make sure there are at least 3 of us so I can take off and shop at my hyper pace.
>
> YAY!!!!! GOOD FOR YOU!!!! I hope that you prove him wrong and the nort. works out really well. I bet you'll be able to tolerate it better than the Anafranil. Just remember to get your blood tested to make sure that you are within the therapeutic window for that drug.
>
-- Thanks. I hope I can prove him wrong too. I am happy and a little nervous - so many failed trials. But, I will remain optimistic and hope for the best. I have been taking 25mg of the Anafranil for the past few days (I still had a small amount left) until I pick up the Nort prescription. Oh God, I hope it works. Have you ever considered trying Anafranil. I remember reading other people's experiences, and some were really positive. Banga, if I remember correctly, had said when she used it the first time, it was like going from black and white to color (or something like that). Given your sensitivity, maybe you wouldn't need a very high dose. I think for some people weight gain is a problem, but if you were able to keep the dose low (50mg - 75mg), it might not be a problem. I gained a bit, but I think that was mostly because I was finally able to eat again, so it was almost a given I would gain some. I just hope you can find something soon to help you. You deserve some relief.
>
> > You can't blame him for not remembering all of your details. He must treat many people and would be impossible to remember all of their histories. I'm glad he was nice about it and that he relented on the nort. Glad the nasty secretary is gone too. That profession needs a good, kind admin person more than any other I can think of!
>
-- Ya, he has a lot of patients. And, he is quite old - 76 years old. Not that that is any indication of a failing memory though. But, after probably 40 years in practice, he has a lot of patients' histories rolling around in his head. He's a pretty good guy. My mom met him the first time I went to see him (she had given me a lift, and his office is at the hospital, so she came up and waited with me). All she kept saying after she met him was how handsome he is. Good God! That's all I need is my crazy mother making a pass at my pdoc! Yipes!
>
> >
> Exactly why that rEEG sounds so good to me. Plus supposedly it can tell you if you need a mood stabilizer and, if so, which one would be best. It can recommend if augmenting with cytomel would be a good idea. It has the potential to save so much time for people if it's really as good as they're claiming.
>
-- Wouldn't that be great to have the guess work taken out of psychopharmocology! What a concept. It would almost be like taking it from an art to an actual science. You'd think the psychiatric community would want to pursue something like that with a vengeance. I hope more research (if that is what is needed) is put into it. The lives it could save.> I still won't have enough money to get health insurance. I need a job for that. It's very hard to buy insurance on your own here especially when you have a pre-existing condition. Depression is one of the major things that they try not to cover. Apparently they can't make a lot of money off of us so why bother giving us healthcare? It's just disgusting.
>
-- I'm sorry about that. I think that health care should be a basic human right. Everybody should have access to at least some form of health care regardless of income. It's true that universal, public health care systems have problems and inadequacies, but at least all citizens have access to the basics. Politicians need to get their priorities straight sometimes. Ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for the rant.> I went to see the house today. It wasn't quite as nice as I imagined it would be. It needs some work (some of the other houses my friend looked at were in tip top shape with brand new everything) so I was a bit disappointed by comparison. My friend isn't going to have the money to fix it up either. However it was still nice and it's in a quiet, beautiful gated community. There's a small gym just a short distance from the house. I hope I'm making the right move here. I think it's better than staying where I am but I'm concerned about so many things. It won't be easy to not have my own place anymore. Also, I really wish her taste weren't so awful and I'm so not up for a move right now. I can't help but feel sorry for myself that I'm going to be in a situation like this at my age rather than owning my own home and having it decorated nicely. OK, whining is over. It felt good to get that out though.
>
-- That's a shame. But, rant away :-) It helps to get these things out. If we held it all in, we would explode. Years ago, my best friend asked me to move into a house that he and friend owned and were using as an income property (rooming house). I loved the neighborhood (it was within walking distance of the river, and all the amenities were there), but when we moved in, I realized what bad shape the house was in. Like you, I was disappointed and discouraged. But, once we got the furniture in there and did a little bit of painting, it wasn't that bad. And, slowly, over a couple of years, other things got done. That's nice about the gym being close by. Once you feel up to it, you can take advantage of that. So, that's a plus. And, it being in a nice neighborhood and a gated community will be reassuring as well. I don't think you are making the wrong move. I remember once talking to my gp about living arrangements in this day in age. I don't even remember why we started talking about it. Anyway, she said that these days people are making all kinds of arrangements, like sharing a house with a friend, living with a sibling, etc. There is no right or wrong these days. I never thought I would own a house or even that I wanted that responsibility. It just turned out that the landlords of the apartment I was living in were becoming unbearable and negligent and the place I bought was reasonably priced and came out to about the same as I would have been paying had I found a new apartment. But, I would not have hesitated to share a place with a good friend if that would have been the financially sound thing to do. And, I like the idea sometimes of having someone else there. I sure hope that your friend will be receptive to some of your decorating ideas. She has to realize that it will be your home too, and it needs to be inviting to you as well. Good luck with that. I will send telepathic messages to your friend - "You are open to suggestion. Accept some decorating tips and help" :-)
>>
> I'm interested in that as well as a last hope kind of a measure since it involves invasive surgery. Jerrympl went through a trail of that. He didn't respond to it but he knew of others in the study who had great responses.
>
-- It's nice to know it is there if and when the time comes to pursue a more aggressive treatment. I remember reading of Jerry's experience. I think he was the first to admit that his failure to respond was not necessarily indicative of the potential success of the treatment for others. I think he had some problems with frequency level or something. So, who knows, he may have eventually responded if they had kept tweaking the frequency.
> >
> Same here. I make all kinds of lists and plans all of the time. Realistically I won't be able to do all of it but I'll try to do what I can and try not to get discouraged because I'm not able to do it all.
>
-- That's all we can do - is do our best to do what we can. We have to feel good about our successes. And, success is not always measured by how much a person does, but rather by the effort a person puts into doing something and the person's good intentions. There! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! :-)
> >
> I've tried 5-htp before. I think I only took 50mg. to help me sleep. It did that but created some stomach problems. I haven't tried the enteric coated version yet though. I tried a bit of tryptophan many years ago for sleep and don't remember much about it. I may try it again sometime soon. Also, I've tried l-tyrosine. I got up to about 3,200 mg. a day on an empty stomach but didn't notice a thing - not even jitteryness. I used a couple of different quality brands too. Something just wasn't happening with that. I may try DLPA again. I've only used it in small dosages and not for a long enough period to really judge it. It would be so great if I could get aminos to work for me. So much easier and no doctors need to be involved.
>
-- You have nothing to lose by trying the aminos again. And, I agree, it would be nice to use something natural and achieve relief rather than having to rely on doctors. You could actually even consider a low dose AD with aminos to augment. I remember reading FredPotter's post about his success with L-Tyrosine as an augmenter. I like to hear success stories like that. I wish more family doctors and pdocs would become better informed of the treatment potential of amino acids and vitamin/mineral therapy. Maybe in the future, there will be a more integrated approach to dealing with depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses. Who knows.
>
> I am crossing my fingers that the nort. will work wonders for you. You deserve it!
>
-- Thanks Kara. Your support means a lot to me. I hope things start to look up for you too. You certainly deserve it.> Have you started cutting back on cigarettes or have you stopped cold turkey yet?
>
-- Well, I have realized that going cold turkey will be hard. So, I am cutting down day by day and will quit, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks. Yikes!> Uggh! It's raining again. I can't stand it!!!
>
-- Oh crap! That stinks! Rain, rain, go away - and stay away!. I'm going out to my backyard right now to do a sun dance for you :-)
>
> Take care, and I'll talk to you later.
>
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 4, 2005, at 21:26:19
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 3, 2005, at 11:53:38
> > Hi,
> -- The morning panic/trauma is the worst. It's like - Oh crap, not again! It would be nice to wake up and at least have a couple of hours of peace of mind. I have found that taking magnesium (500mg) before bed has helped those feelings a bit. I'm glad for you that doxepin has helped you some. Even a small amount of relief is welcome, especially if the mornings have become a bit more tolerable. It's the impatience that I find the worst at times. I even have a hard time going shopping with anyone because I am so hyper and can get so impatient. I have to be able to zip into a store, take a quick scan, and leave when I realize there is nothing in there I am interested in. So many of my friends make shopping almost a sport! Puttering through the stores, purusing each and every rack, while I stand there thinking "there is nothing in here, let's go, go, go!" My friends and I go shopping in the States sometimes, and I try to make sure there are at least 3 of us so I can take off and shop at my hyper pace.
I haven't been waking up with that panic lately. I'm amazed that this low level of doxepin has been able to take that away. It still don't want to get out of bed, however, and I end up resetting the alarm a hundred times (despite my promises to myself the night before that I'll wake up the first time the alarm goes off.) By now I've lost all credibility with myself. :-(
I bet your friends really enjoy shopping with you. Have you always been like that or is it a more recent phenomenon that goes along with your current anxiety state? It's good that you try to go with more than two people so you can zip around and not have to wait for others. I went to do a lot of errands yesterday - was gone at least 7 hours. That's the first time in weeks that I've been able to do that. At first I was pleased to have made the progress but then for some reason as the day wore on I felt very hopeless. I started obsessing about the future. I was tired and the bad traffic didn't help at all. If only I could stop worrying so much about the future.
> -- Thanks. I hope I can prove him wrong too. I am happy and a little nervous - so many failed trials. But, I will remain optimistic and hope for the best. I have been taking 25mg of the Anafranil for the past few days (I still had a small amount left) until I pick up the Nort prescription. Oh God, I hope it works. Have you ever considered trying Anafranil. I remember reading other people's experiences, and some were really positive. Banga, if I remember correctly, had said when she used it the first time, it was like going from black and white to color (or something like that). Given your sensitivity, maybe you wouldn't need a very high dose. I think for some people weight gain is a problem, but if you were able to keep the dose low (50mg - 75mg), it might not be a problem. I gained a bit, but I think that was mostly because I was finally able to eat again, so it was almost a given I would gain some. I just hope you can find something soon to help you. You deserve some relief.
Have you started the nort. yet? I also like to hear about people who have great success with something. It gives me hope. I've never had that kind of success yet. I've had partial mood lift which has allowed me to function but nothing that has made life seem worth living. I am determined, however, to find something that works even if I have to get invasive surgery (hopefully it won't come to that). Did you have that kind of success when you were on Paxil before it pooped-out? (That was what you took earlier, right?)
> -- Ya, he has a lot of patients. And, he is quite old - 76 years old. Not that that is any indication of a failing memory though. But, after probably 40 years in practice, he has a lot of patients' histories rolling around in his head. He's a pretty good guy. My mom met him the first time I went to see him (she had given me a lift, and his office is at the hospital, so she came up and waited with me). All she kept saying after she met him was how handsome he is. Good God! That's all I need is my crazy mother making a pass at my pdoc! Yipes!
Sounds like material for movie or a TV sitcom! Wow, still working at age 76. He must really like his job (or he'sone of those people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they retired). His age helps to explain his conservatism with medications too. But I'm glad he came through for you recently.
> -- Wouldn't that be great to have the guess work taken out of psychopharmocology! What a concept. It would almost be like taking it from an art to an actual science. You'd think the psychiatric community would want to pursue something like that with a vengeance. I hope more research (if that is what is needed) is put into it. The lives it could save.
Maybe the psychiatric community wouldn't want that kind of a tool. If a patient is easily diagnosed and treated, then there's no need to have them come in to the office a million times for further treatment. They might find their income dropping off significantly.
> -- I'm sorry about that. I think that health care should be a basic human right. Everybody should have access to at least some form of health care regardless of income. It's true that universal, public health care systems have problems and inadequacies, but at least all citizens have access to the basics. Politicians need to get their priorities straight sometimes. Ok, I'll shut up now. Sorry for the rant.I agree completely. It's just horrible that some people don't have access to health care. Actually the numbers are well over 40 million people in the U.S. without health care coverage. There are some free clinics but they are decreasing in number as the number of uninsureds has climbed. This problem will only get worse as budget cuts further curtail the services avaiable. Not a good situation.
> -- That's a shame. But, rant away :-) It helps to get these things out. If we held it all in, we would explode. Years ago, my best friend asked me to move into a house that he and friend owned and were using as an income property (rooming house). I loved the neighborhood (it was within walking distance of the river, and all the amenities were there), but when we moved in, I realized what bad shape the house was in. Like you, I was disappointed and discouraged. But, once we got the furniture in there and did a little bit of painting, it wasn't that bad. And, slowly, over a couple of years, other things got done. That's nice about the gym being close by. Once you feel up to it, you can take advantage of that. So, that's a plus. And, it being in a nice neighborhood and a gated community will be reassuring as well. I don't think you are making the wrong move. I remember once talking to my gp about living arrangements in this day in age. I don't even remember why we started talking about it. Anyway, she said that these days people are making all kinds of arrangements, like sharing a house with a friend, living with a sibling, etc. There is no right or wrong these days. I never thought I would own a house or even that I wanted that responsibility. It just turned out that the landlords of the apartment I was living in were becoming unbearable and negligent and the place I bought was reasonably priced and came out to about the same as I would have been paying had I found a new apartment. But, I would not have hesitated to share a place with a good friend if that would have been the financially sound thing to do. And, I like the idea sometimes of having someone else there. I sure hope that your friend will be receptive to some of your decorating ideas. She has to realize that it will be your home too, and it needs to be inviting to you as well. Good luck with that. I will send telepathic messages to your friend - "You are open to suggestion. Accept some decorating tips and help" :-)
It'll probably work out and, if not, then I'll have to get my own place again. In the meantime I'll have the company as you said. You're a riot with the telepathic messages about decorating. I think she's way beyond hope though.> -- It's nice to know it is there if and when the time comes to pursue a more aggressive treatment. I remember reading of Jerry's experience. I think he was the first to admit that his failure to respond was not necessarily indicative of the potential success of the treatment for others. I think he had some problems with frequency level or something. So, who knows, he may have eventually responded if they had kept tweaking the frequency.
I asked him that same question about whether he might have given it more of a chance. He said that they did try changing the frequency and it didn't help and the researchers told him to forget it. How incredibly discouraging to go through something that dramatic and not get results. I'd have felt completely hopeless after that.
> -- You have nothing to lose by trying the aminos again. And, I agree, it would be nice to use something natural and achieve relief rather than having to rely on doctors. You could actually even consider a low dose AD with aminos to augment. I remember reading FredPotter's post about his success with L-Tyrosine as an augmenter. I like to hear success stories like that. I wish more family doctors and pdocs would become better informed of the treatment potential of amino acids and vitamin/mineral therapy. Maybe in the future, there will be a more integrated approach to dealing with depression, anxiety and other mental illnesses. Who knows.
That would be nice but for now you have to combine the meds and the supplements on your own or search for one of those rare doctors who know both. I remember being jealous of Fred Potter's success with l-tyrosine. If that had worked to augment the Effexor last year then I wouldn't have had to go through this last horrible spell of anxiety and depression. Oh well, nothing to be gained by obsessing about something I had no control over.
> -- Well, I have realized that going cold turkey will be hard. So, I am cutting down day by day and will quit, hopefully, in the next couple of weeks. Yikes!
Yikes is right. You'll fee so much better in the long run but in the short run you might have some withdrawal effects. Hope that you're able to tell what is nicotine withdrawal and what are side effects from the nort.
> -- Oh crap! That stinks! Rain, rain, go away - and stay away!. I'm going out to my backyard right now to do a sun dance for you :-
We've had more rain but with some breakthrough sun sometimes so your sun dance partially worked.
> > Take care, and I'll talk to you later.Ditto.
k
Posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 4, 2005, at 21:26:19
> > > Hi Kara,
>
>
> I haven't been waking up with that panic lately. I'm amazed that this low level of doxepin has been able to take that away. It still don't want to get out of bed, however, and I end up resetting the alarm a hundred times (despite my promises to myself the night before that I'll wake up the first time the alarm goes off.) By now I've lost all credibility with myself. :-(
>
-- That is good news! Try not to worry Kara. The day will come when you will not be hitting the snooze button for as long. My bedside clock is always set about 1/2 an hour ahead so that I can hit the snooze button over and over and over again before I get out of bed! My warped logic has me somehow convinced that I am getting more sleep this way. It's human nature to want to grab as many winks as we can. I am sure that once you find the right med and get your depression under even moderate control, you will be more inclined to hit the snooze button less. And, your credibility with yourself will be back :-)
> I bet your friends really enjoy shopping with you. Have you always been like that or is it a more recent phenomenon that goes along with your current anxiety state? It's good that you try to go with more than two people so you can zip around and not have to wait for others. I went to do a lot of errands yesterday - was gone at least 7 hours. That's the first time in weeks that I've been able to do that. At first I was pleased to have made the progress but then for some reason as the day wore on I felt very hopeless. I started obsessing about the future. I was tired and the bad traffic didn't help at all. If only I could stop worrying so much about the future.
>
-- I guess. I don't show my impatience outwardly, so that's a good thing. And, I try to contain myself when my friends want to spend lots of time trying things on (I can't be bothered trying things on - I know my size and what I like, so I usually just head to the cash with my purchases). I have been that way for years - a hyper, get in and get out type of shopper. That's great about your day of errands. That's an accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself. And you drove as well! That's wonderful! I know what you mean about the hopeless feeling, and I can so relate to that. But, you were probably feeling tired and a bit drained from all that you had done that day. I mean, really, that would have been a full day even for someone without depression. When I get that hopeless feeling I kind of step back and think about what else is going on, and, more often than not, I realize that I am just feeling tired and drained, and that it probably is not the best time to think about things like the future. So, I try to turn my thinking to something else - even if it is just to taking out the garbage or getting the kitchen organized. Anything to distract myself from the feelings of hopelessness until I have had a chance to get some sleep and recharge a bit. And, don't forget, you have a lot on your plate right now - the upcoming move, a complete change in your living arrangements, trying to decide on a new med. . . So, not to sound like a nudge, but be patient and gentle with yourself. Once you get settled, the feelings of hopelessness will likely subside somewhat. Right now, it's just a lot to deal with and think about. I so wish for you peace of mind Kara.
> >
> Have you started the nort. yet? I also like to hear about people who have great success with something. It gives me hope. I've never had that kind of success yet. I've had partial mood lift which has allowed me to function but nothing that has made life seem worth living. I am determined, however, to find something that works even if I have to get invasive surgery (hopefully it won't come to that). Did you have that kind of success when you were on Paxil before it pooped-out? (That was what you took earlier, right?)
>
-- I took my first dose last night. So, time will tell. Ya, I think the success stories keep us going. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you have that type of success. You've had partial success, so it is now just a matter of finding the right med or combo of meds for you. I had a really good response to Paxil. It was rough the first few weeks - increased anxiety, nausea, etc. But, once it kicked in and started being active again, I was like my old self again. I am still kicking myself in the butt for stopping it a couple of years ago. I should have continued with a low, maintainence dose. Oh well, live and learn. Like you, I hang on to hope. If hope is all we have sometimes to keep us going through the rough times, then we have to hang on to it with both hands.
> >
> Sounds like material for movie or a TV sitcom! Wow, still working at age 76. He must really like his job (or he'sone of those people who wouldn't know what to do with themselves if they retired). His age helps to explain his conservatism with medications too. But I'm glad he came through for you recently.
>
-- My mom is a strange bird sometimes. She keeps wanting me to go on a cruise with her so she can "meet a hunk". Can you imagine! I always tell she's all talk no action :-) My pdoc really does seem to love his work. But, he does have outside interests, and he has, I think, a big, loving family. So, I am sure that when he decides to retire, he won't be without things to him occupied.
> >
> Maybe the psychiatric community wouldn't want that kind of a tool. If a patient is easily diagnosed and treated, then there's no need to have them come in to the office a million times for further treatment. They might find their income dropping off significantly.
>
-- You have probably hit the nail on the head. Sometimes it all comes down to money. What a shame :-(
> > >
> I agree completely. It's just horrible that some people don't have access to health care. Actually the numbers are well over 40 million people in the U.S. without health care coverage. There are some free clinics but they are decreasing in number as the number of uninsureds has climbed. This problem will only get worse as budget cuts further curtail the services avaiable. Not a good situation.
>
-- That is almost criminal. I am sure there must be some kind of corelation between a healthy society and a healthy economy. People have enough to worry about these days that stressing over whether they can afford to see a doctor or have a necessary surgery shouldn't be one of them. I suppose to a lot of politicians there are just more important things to spend money on. What a shame.
> >
> It'll probably work out and, if not, then I'll have to get my own place again. In the meantime I'll have the company as you said. You're a riot with the telepathic messages about decorating. I think she's way beyond hope though.
>
-- That's right. You won't know until you try. And, you know you always have the option of getting your own place again.
> >
> I asked him that same question about whether he might have given it more of a chance. He said that they did try changing the frequency and it didn't help and the researchers told him to forget it. How incredibly discouraging to go through something that dramatic and not get results. I'd have felt completely hopeless after that.
>
-- That's too bad that the researchers gave up. Who knows what a little extra tweaking might have done. I agree that it would have been discouraging. I, too, would have felt some level of hopelessness. It's so nice to hear the optimism in Jerry's words now though isn't it. I have been following his Opiates trial threads, and I am so happy for him that he is experiencing some measure of relief. Another positive story of success to hold on it. Thank goodness!
> >
> That would be nice but for now you have to combine the meds and the supplements on your own or search for one of those rare doctors who know both. I remember being jealous of Fred Potter's success with l-tyrosine. If that had worked to augment the Effexor last year then I wouldn't have had to go through this last horrible spell of anxiety and depression. Oh well, nothing to be gained by obsessing about something I had no control over.
>
-- Those doctors, I think, are few and far between. I remember when I asked my gp and pdoc if I could try aminos and they both just kind of dismissed the suggestion with a wave of a hand and said sure go ahead. Me too - I was somewhat jealous of Fred's success! I was happy for him, but I thought why couldn't that have been me. Oh well, we're human, so it is only natural to feel that way sometimes. And, who knows, maybe you will have that kind of success if you try the DLPA again and play around with the dose. I can't remember, did you ever try Acetyl L-Carnitine? It is another supplement that is supposed to be effective for increasing motivation and decreasing apathy. I also read that it is effective for chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Once I have increased my dose of nort, I may try adding a couple of natural supplements - probably NADH and L-Carnitine.
>
> Yikes is right. You'll fee so much better in the long run but in the short run you might have some withdrawal effects. Hope that you're able to tell what is nicotine withdrawal and what are side effects from the nort.
>
-- You are right! I think smoking can be a stimulant, but it also can be quite physically draining. I know the withdrawal will be brutal for a few days, but that is to be expected. Maybe by the time I quit, I will have already been through the worst of the nort side effects so I won't be dealing with both side effects and withdrawal. I hope so.
> >
> We've had more rain but with some breakthrough sun sometimes so your sun dance partially worked.
>
-- That's good. I'll have to dance a bit longer and a bit harder next time :-) Seriously though, I hope the rain lets up for an extended period of time soon.
>
Take care Kara. Until next time.Tamara
Posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
Hey Tamara!
Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
Ed x
Posted by KaraS on March 5, 2005, at 17:59:42
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
> Hey Tamara!
>
> Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
>
> Ed x
I remember when "finding the one" used to mean finding a mate. I never imagined that for me it would come to mean finding the right drug. Anyway, I hope we all "find the right one".K
Posted by ed_uk on March 6, 2005, at 10:35:54
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on March 5, 2005, at 17:59:42
Hi K,
LOL, please forgive me for my embarrasing use of language!
Ed x
Posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 15:22:06
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on March 6, 2005, at 10:35:54
> Hi K,
>
> LOL, please forgive me for my embarrasing use of language!
>
> Ed x
Ed,Nothing to forgive. We all use that term. I was just waxing philosophical for a moment.
K
Posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 16:16:29
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 5, 2005, at 11:33:42
Hi,
> >
> >
> -- That is good news! Try not to worry Kara. The day will come when you will not be hitting the snooze button for as long. My bedside clock is always set about 1/2 an hour ahead so that I can hit the snooze button over and over and over again before I get out of bed! My warped logic has me somehow convinced that I am getting more sleep this way. It's human nature to want to grab as many winks as we can. I am sure that once you find the right med and get your depression under even moderate control, you will be more inclined to hit the snooze button less. And, your credibility with yourself will be back :-)
>Ah, so you hit the snooze button a lot too. I've started to set my alarm earlier as well. (Unfortunately that gives me more reason to keep hitting that snooze button.) I'm hoping that when I have to be some place that I won't continue to hit the snooze button. We shall see.
> -- I guess. I don't show my impatience outwardly, so that's a good thing. And, I try to contain myself when my friends want to spend lots of time trying things on (I can't be bothered trying things on - I know my size and what I like, so I usually just head to the cash with my purchases). I have been that way for years - a hyper, get in and get out type of shopper. That's great about your day of errands. That's an accomplishment and you should be proud of yourself. And you drove as well! That's wonderful! I know what you mean about the hopeless feeling, and I can so relate to that. But, you were probably feeling tired and a bit drained from all that you had done that day. I mean, really, that would have been a full day even for someone without depression. When I get that hopeless feeling I kind of step back and think about what else is going on, and, more often than not, I realize that I am just feeling tired and drained, and that it probably is not the best time to think about things like the future. So, I try to turn my thinking to something else - even if it is just to taking out the garbage or getting the kitchen organized. Anything to distract myself from the feelings of hopelessness until I have had a chance to get some sleep and recharge a bit. And, don't forget, you have a lot on your plate right now - the upcoming move, a complete change in your living arrangements, trying to decide on a new med. . . So, not to sound like a nudge, but be patient and gentle with yourself. Once you get settled, the feelings of hopelessness will likely subside somewhat. Right now, it's just a lot to deal with and think about. I so wish for you peace of mind Kara.
If your method of shopping works for you, then no harm done. I'm the opposite though. I don't want to have to worry about taking it back if it doesn't fit so I always try things on. I saw a segment on the news the other day about some retailers having limits on the amount of things that can be brought back within certain timeframes. The person who always just brought things home was not allowed to return some things because of this policy and it led to a story on the news.
I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.
> -- I took my first dose last night. So, time will tell. Ya, I think the success stories keep us going. I am sure it is only a matter of time before you have that type of success. You've had partial success, so it is now just a matter of finding the right med or combo of meds for you. I had a really good response to Paxil. It was rough the first few weeks - increased anxiety, nausea, etc. But, once it kicked in and started being active again, I was like my old self again. I am still kicking myself in the butt for stopping it a couple of years ago. I should have continued with a low, maintainence dose. Oh well, live and learn. Like you, I hang on to hope. If hope is all we have sometimes to keep us going through the rough times, then we have to hang on to it with both hands.
So how is the nort. treating you so far??? Any side effects or problems? Hopefully it's ok. I had tachycardia from it but you would have noticed that on the first pill so chances are you're not going to have that problem. Don't beat yourself up about going off of the Paxil. There's no way you could have known about future med problems. I feel that away about the Effexor sometimes but I went off of it for a good reason and I just keep telling myself that.
> -- My mom is a strange bird sometimes. She keeps wanting me to go on a cruise with her so she can "meet a hunk". Can you imagine! I always tell she's all talk no action :-) My pdoc really does seem to love his work. But, he does have outside interests, and he has, I think, a big, loving family. So, I am sure that when he decides to retire, he won't be without things to him occupied.
Both of your parents are characters! Definitely lots of material for a sitcom! As for your doctor, I really envy him. I wish I had a career I loved and that gave me a sense of fulfillment.
> -- That is almost criminal. I am sure there must be some kind of corelation between a healthy society and a healthy economy. People have enough to worry about these days that stressing over whether they can afford to see a doctor or have a necessary surgery shouldn't be one of them. I suppose to a lot of politicians there are just more important things to spend money on. What a shame.Criminal is exactly the word. And even those who have health insurance can be completely ruined financially if they or one of their family members develops a horrible disease or condition because insurance only pays for so much. Besides, insurance companies always find excuses not to cover things. They love to call procedures "experimental" and that way they don't have to pay for them. The politicians always give lip service to changing our healthcare system but nothing ever happens once they get elected. To be fair, Clinton tried to do this but Congress gave too much resistance. Part of the reason was that he put Hillary in charge of the whole thing and everyone balked at her being given this role. Afterall, who was she? No one elected her to anything (at the time). Lots of sexism involved too.
> -- That's right. You won't know until you try. And, you know you always have the option of getting your own place again.Yeah, I'm sure it's the best move in the short-term. It's just my heightened state of anxiety, given recent events, that has me questioning my decision.
> -- That's too bad that the researchers gave up. Who knows what a little extra tweaking might have done. I agree that it would have been discouraging. I, too, would have felt some level of hopelessness. It's so nice to hear the optimism in Jerry's words now though isn't it. I have been following his opiates trial threads, and I am so happy for him that he is experiencing some measure of relief. Another positive story of success to hold on it. Thank goodness!
I just hope that this therapy continues to work for Jerry. There are lots of dangers with opiates and the chances are great that he will require higher and higher dosages in the future.
> -- Those doctors, I think, are few and far between. I remember when I asked my gp and pdoc if I could try aminos and they both just kind of dismissed the suggestion with a wave of a hand and said sure go ahead. Me too - I was somewhat jealous of Fred's success! I was happy for him, but I thought why couldn't that have been me. Oh well, we're human, so it is only natural to feel that way sometimes. And, who knows, maybe you will have that kind of success if you try the DLPA again and play around with the dose. I can't remember, did you ever try Acetyl L-Carnitine? It is another supplement that is supposed to be effective for increasing motivation and decreasing apathy. I also read that it is effective for chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Once I have increased my dose of nort, I may try adding a couple of natural supplements - probably NADH and L-Carnitine.What was your response to the l-tyrosine? I thought that helped you but my memory is failing me. I tried acetyl-l-carnitine along with DMAE and phosphatidylserine for several weeks and didn't notice any improvement. I'm sure that they were doing good things in my body but nothing that I could really pinpoint in terms of depression or increased concentration. I only took 100 mg. of DMAE and PS though. I don't remember the ALC dose. Maybe I didn't go high enough on any of them. I don't have the money now or I'd like to try taking larger doses of PS to lower my cortisol. The NADH and ALC seemed to work well for you. Good to know that you have those augmentors available to you.
> -- You are right! I think smoking can be a stimulant, but it also can be quite physically draining. I know the withdrawal will be brutal for a few days, but that is to be expected. Maybe by the time I quit, I will have already been through the worst of the nort side effects so I won't be dealing with both side effects and withdrawal. I hope so.
That could be right and if you sense trouble from the nicotine withdrawal, you can always slow down the process. I think it's a great sign that you're motivated to quit smoking now.
> -- That's good. I'll have to dance a bit longer and a bit harder next time :-) Seriously though, I hope the rain lets up for an extended period of time soon.
Your raindance worked. It's really sunny here today and the prediction is for several more days of this to follow. So, please don't stop the dancing!!! (It could also help you deal with cigarette withdrawal and work wonders for your anxiety.) :-)
Talk to you later. Now I think I'm going to force my butt outside to take a walk.
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 13:35:50
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2005, at 17:15:48
Hey Ed!
Thanks for the well wishes :-) I have tolerated 25mg well, so I may increase the dose to 50mg tonight. Just a question - is increased agitation/anxiety a common start-up side effect with nort? I am so hoping that the nort will finally be the right med for me!
Take care.
Tamara
> Hey Tamara!
>
> Best of luck with the nortriptyline :-) I look forward to hearing how you do. I think it could be the one!
>
> Ed x
Posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 14:21:46
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 6, 2005, at 16:16:29
> Hi,
> > >
> >
> Ah, so you hit the snooze button a lot too. I've started to set my alarm earlier as well. (Unfortunately that gives me more reason to keep hitting that snooze button.) I'm hoping that when I have to be some place that I won't continue to hit the snooze button. We shall see.
>
-- Ya, I am a "snoozer". I never used to be. I was always one of those people who didn't need an alarm clock - just woke up at the same time everyday and jumped out of bed. But, in the past couple of years, my alarm clock has become both my best friend and my arch enemy! Oh well. I am sure you won't be hitting the snooze button as often when you have to be some place. But, you're right, time will tell. I will be in that boat soon too. So, I'll have to see just how well I do in that regard. Yipes!
>
> If your method of shopping works for you, then no harm done. I'm the opposite though. I don't want to have to worry about taking it back if it doesn't fit so I always try things on. I saw a segment on the news the other day about some retailers having limits on the amount of things that can be brought back within certain timeframes. The person who always just brought things home was not allowed to return some things because of this policy and it led to a story on the news.
>
-- I have been really lucky that I have very rarely had to or wanted to return something. If I am unsure about something, then I will cave in and take the time to try it on. I worked with a lady who used to shop, try things on, buy and then a few days later, after re-trying things on at home, decide she didn't like what she had bought and return it. We all used to tease her about it, but she didn't seem in the least bit concerned. I would be so embarrassed if I was constantly returning things, especially if I had tried them on first. I can imagine that some stores would want to curtail compulsive returners. Can you imagine if someone was buying clothes, wearing them for a special event, and then returning them. Yuk! But, I am sure that some people do that.> I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.
>
-- What I find so weird about CBT is that I think most of us know that we need to redirect our thoughts are change our thinking - that is just common sense. But, changing our thinking isn't always effective in quelling anxiety, especially when the anxiety is the "free floating" kind where there doesn't seem to be any particular thought(s) or action(s) that seem to be causing it. I don't know, maybe I am just being cynical. The tapping may work. The way I was taught was, again, you have to focus on what is causing the angst and tap it away. I am really looking forward to starting yoga or something like that. It is supposed to be very calming, centering and energizing.
>
> So how is the nort. treating you so far??? Any side effects or problems? Hopefully it's ok. I had tachycardia from it but you would have noticed that on the first pill so chances are you're not going to have that problem. Don't beat yourself up about going off of the Paxil. There's no way you could have known about future med problems. I feel that away about the Effexor sometimes but I went off of it for a good reason and I just keep telling myself that.
>
-- So far, I think it is treating me well. I have been experiencing a little bit more agitation/anxiety, but I am hoping that that will subside as my body adjusts to the med. I don't want to jinx myself, but I think I may be experiencing a lessening of the dark, ruminating thoughts I have been having. The anxiety is still there, but there are other reasons for that. When I see the pdoc next week, I may discuss Klonopin with him. Have you ever tried it? I have heard it can be particularly good for avoidant personality caused by constant anxiety and the "what if" thoughts. That will be the last hump I will have to get over if the nort works. You're right, we can't beat ourselves up for making the decision to discontinue a med. I am sorry that the Effexor did not agree with you the second time around. But, I sure am glad that the Doxepin is at least helping keep the anxiety under control for you. That gives you a little bit of breathing room to do some more research and identify a med for the depression. Have you ever tried Tofranil PM? I have heard some good things about it for depression and anxiety.
>
> Both of your parents are characters! Definitely lots of material for a sitcom! As for your doctor, I really envy him. I wish I had a career I loved and that gave me a sense of fulfillment.
>
-- Oh, they are characters alright! Material for a sitcom now, but when they were together, it would have probably been better material for a horror show! Now, there were two people who never should have gotten together or stayed together as long as they did. I think in some cases, opposites attract and can have a very healthy and loving relationship. But, in some cases, it is a disaster. Oh well, the times were different when my parents married. If they had decided to pursue a relationship in this day and age, they probably would have lived together and realized that they were all wrong for each other. Go figure.
>
> Criminal is exactly the word. And even those who have health insurance can be completely ruined financially if they or one of their family members develops a horrible disease or condition because insurance only pays for so much. Besides, insurance companies always find excuses not to cover things. They love to call procedures "experimental" and that way they don't have to pay for them. The politicians always give lip service to changing our healthcare system but nothing ever happens once they get elected. To be fair, Clinton tried to do this but Congress gave too much resistance. Part of the reason was that he put Hillary in charge of the whole thing and everyone balked at her being given this role. Afterall, who was she? No one elected her to anything (at the time). Lots of sexism involved too.
>
-- I had heard some horror stories about people having to deal with the insurance companies and having treatments, etc. denied or having to jump through hoops and provide justifications, etc. for off-label uses. I seem to recall having heard a story of a man who lived in Texas (I think I am remembering correctly), and he had a daughter who had serious medical problems. He almost went broke in the States trying to get her treatment, and finally left the States for Canada so she could get the care she needed. The partisan sniping and egos need to be shelved long enough to put some serious thought into the issue.
> > >
> Yeah, I'm sure it's the best move in the short-term. It's just my heightened state of anxiety, given recent events, that has me questioning my decision.
>
-- It's a big decision, and I don't blame you for having mixed emotions about it. Yes, there are a number of pros, but, as you have said, there are some cons. Hopefully, once you make the move and get settled, the pros will outweigh the cons. I hope everything works out. I am really keeping my fingers crossed for you that this will, in the end, be a good, positive move for you.>
> I just hope that this therapy continues to work for Jerry. There are lots of dangers with opiates and the chances are great that he will require higher and higher dosages in the future.
>
-- I do too.
>
> What was your response to the l-tyrosine? I thought that helped you but my memory is failing me. I tried acetyl-l-carnitine along with DMAE and phosphatidylserine for several weeks and didn't notice any improvement. I'm sure that they were doing good things in my body but nothing that I could really pinpoint in terms of depression or increased concentration. I only took 100 mg. of DMAE and PS though. I don't remember the ALC dose. Maybe I didn't go high enough on any of them. I don't have the money now or I'd like to try taking larger doses of PS to lower my cortisol. The NADH and ALC seemed to work well for you. Good to know that you have those augmentors available to you.
>
-- I seemed to have a relatively positive response to L-Tyrosine. But then I added L-Glutamine into the mix early on and ended up after about two weeks on both L-Tyrosine and L-glutamine in a severely agitated state. It was incredibly unpleasant. Because I was using both together, I didn't know if it was the L-Tyrosine or the L-Glutamine or a combination of the two. But, it freaked me out so much that I stopped both and have been a little wary ever since about trying again. Maybe once I get my current state of anxiety and depression under control, I will experiment again. I was using 150mg of DMAE and that seemed to help somewhat in combination with NADH. But, I think that the anxiety I had been experiencing was derailing to some extent the effectiveness of the combo (because the anxiety would be so bad some days that I would feel exhausted from it). You may respond to a higher dose of DMAE. I had read in a couple of places that ACL provided some relief at doses of 1,000 - 2,000mg. I tried PS, but, even at doses of 200 - 300mg a day, I did not experience any noticable improvement or relief. I guess natural supplements are just like meds in one regard - you have to experiment to find the right supps or combo of supps for your own particular chemistry.
>
> Your raindance worked. It's really sunny here today and the prediction is for several more days of this to follow. So, please don't stop the dancing!!! (It could also help you deal with cigarette withdrawal and work wonders for your anxiety.) :-)
>
-- That's great news! Sunny and several more days of sun. What a relief. I'll keep dancing. You're right too - it may help with the anxiety and depression. My sister-in-law wants me to take dance lessons with her. We have a friend who is a dance instructor, and he's really good. So, when I am feeling better, we may sign up for one of this classes. That would be fun!> Talk to you later. Now I think I'm going to force my butt outside to take a walk.
>
-- Hope you managed to get out for a walk and enjoyed it. It's so nice to walk in the sunshine. It's snowing here tody. We are expecting about 25cm or more. Ugh! Oh well, spring isn't far off (thank goodness!).Take care and talk to you soon!
Tamara
Posted by KaraS on March 7, 2005, at 20:50:18
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 14:21:46
Hi,
> -- Ya, I am a "snoozer". I never used to be. I was always one of those people who didn't need an alarm clock - just woke up at the same time everyday and jumped out of bed. But, in the past couple of years, my alarm clock has become both my best friend and my arch enemy! Oh well. I am sure you won't be hitting the snooze button as often when you have to be some place. But, you're right, time will tell. I will be in that boat soon too. So, I'll have to see just how well I do in that regard. Yipes!
Unfortunately I've been a "snoozer" since I was a teenager. I so wish I weren't. Taj Mahal has a song "Take a Giant Step" and in it there's a line that goes someting like this:
"Remember the feeling as a child
when you woke up and morning smiled?"I cry everytime I hear or think of that line. It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring. Instead, I dread the day and so hit that snooze button a million times so I don't have to face it. In my more optimistic moments, like now, I feel that it's still possible to feel that excitement again so I'll try to hold onto that.
> -- I have been really lucky that I have very rarely had to or wanted to return something. If I am unsure about something, then I will cave in and take the time to try it on. I worked with a lady who used to shop, try things on, buy and then a few days later, after re-trying things on at home, decide she didn't like what she had bought and return it. We all used to tease her about it, but she didn't seem in the least bit concerned. I would be so embarrassed if I was constantly returning things, especially if I had tried them on first. I can imagine that some stores would want to curtail compulsive returners. Can you imagine if someone was buying clothes, wearing them for a special event, and then returning them. Yuk! But, I am sure that some people do that.Yeah, you can't blame the stores from trying to protect themselves from the chronic returners. I think you're right that some of them actually wear the clothes and then return them. Yuk is right! Once I am able to function again and get a job, it will be such a thrill to get some new clothes.
> > I think that doing some CBT or trying to redirect thoughts to something else are good solutions (if one can manage it) when one starts to negatively worry and obsess. Who knows, maybe even the tapping will, in time, help with this kind of thing. And maybe medication could help eventually.I did some tapping last night and didn't feel much of a result. Then I did the 5 step breathing exercise with tapping that's supposed to get your polarity straigtened out. Anyway, after that exercise I did feel more relaxed but that could just have been because of the breathing part of the exercise. I woke up this morning and felt quite anxious so I didn't think it worked. Later today I realized I felt much more optimistic and stronger than yesterday. I didn't feel like I would cry if someone looked at me wrong. I don't know if this has anything to do with the tapping. I'll try to do more exercises tonight though.
> -- What I find so weird about CBT is that I think most of us know that we need to redirect our thoughts are change our thinking - that is just common sense. But, changing our thinking isn't always effective in quelling anxiety, especially when the anxiety is the "free floating" kind where there doesn't seem to be any particular thought(s) or action(s) that seem to be causing it. I don't know, maybe I am just being cynical. The tapping may work. The way I was taught was, again, you have to focus on what is causing the angst and tap it away. I am really looking forward to starting yoga or something like that. It is supposed to be very calming, centering and energizing.I have the Burns handbook at home on CBT. He claims that anxiety (including GAD and panic disorder) is one of the things that CBT is particularly useful for. I can't help but be skeptical about that as well. My anxiety is so all-encompassing and so seemingly removed from my thinking. I find it hard to believe that CBT could even make a dent in the kind of anxiety I've been experiencing. Also, doctors and researchers are coming to believe that in many cases the agitation may be a form of bipolar disease. In that case, I especially can't see CBT being helpful.
A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
> -- So far, I think it is treating me well. I have been experiencing a little bit more agitation/anxiety, but I am hoping that that will subside as my body adjusts to the med. I don't want to jinx myself, but I think I may be experiencing a lessening of the dark, ruminating thoughts I have been having. The anxiety is still there, but there are other reasons for that. When I see the pdoc next week, I may discuss Klonopin with him. Have you ever tried it? I have heard it can be particularly good for avoidant personality caused by constant anxiety and the "what if" thoughts. That will be the last hump I will have to get over if the nort works. You're right, we can't beat ourselves up for making the decision to discontinue a med. I am sorry that the Effexor did not agree with you the second time around. But, I sure am glad that the Doxepin is at least helping keep the anxiety under control for you. That gives you a little bit of breathing room to do some more research and identify a med for the depression. Have you ever tried Tofranil PM? I have heard some good things about it for depression and anxiety.It sounds like there's reason to be optimistic about the nort. It's too early to get too excited about it and I don't want to jinx it either but it does sound good. A little bit more agitation isn't bad if you can handle it esp. when you know that it won't last. Did you try taking the additional 25 mg. yet?
I haven't tried Klonopin yet. I'm considering it though. I am a bit afraid of benzos but it may be helpful in getting me on some other AD that I'm not able to tolerate now. I also have an avoidant personality so it may be useful in that respect as well. My doctor prescribed Xanax for me but I've only taken it once. I really don't like the thought of having to take it 4X a day either and I hear it's particularly difficult to get off of it. Who knows - the nort. may end up relaxing you a lot and you might find that you don't need anything else.
I haven't tried Tofranil PM either. I'm not sure what the "PM" stands for. Tofranil is imipramine if I'm not mistaken. It's profile suggests that it would probably give me tachycardia.
> -- Oh, they are characters alright! Material for a sitcom now, but when they were together, it would have probably been better material for a horror show! Now, there were two people who never should have gotten together or stayed together as long as they did. I think in some cases, opposites attract and can have a very healthy and loving relationship. But, in some cases, it is a disaster. Oh well, the times were different when my parents married. If they had decided to pursue a relationship in this day and age, they probably would have lived together and realized that they were all wrong for each other. Go figure.
I think a lot of couples who come together when they're younger and not experienced enough make some very bad choices - esp. in our parents' generation - when they didn't have the option of trying it out first. On the otherhand, trying it out can lead to lack of commitment.> -- I had heard some horror stories about people having to deal with the insurance companies and having treatments, etc. denied or having to jump through hoops and provide justifications, etc. for off-label uses. I seem to recall having heard a story of a man who lived in Texas (I think I am remembering correctly), and he had a daughter who had serious medical problems. He almost went broke in the States trying to get her treatment, and finally left the States for Canada so she could get the care she needed. The partisan sniping and egos need to be shelved long enough to put some serious thought into the issue.
Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) used to have a tv show. In one segment he took on an insurance company that refused to pay for an organ transplant that would have saved a young man's life. (The young man had a wife and young child as well.) The insurance company called the procedure "experimental" (their favorite word). Anyway, without the surgery, the guy was definitely going to die. Moore went to the insurance company along with the young man (cameras following them as well). They met with a company PR person and they asked the PR guy for help in picking out coffins. They also gave the PR guy an invitation to the funeral. It was such a powerful segment. Needless to say the insurance company caved and, in fact, changed their policy on that kind of transplant. Later in the show, the man (who had since had the surgery and was now fine) stood up and the audience went wild with cheering. It was great drama and so satisfying! Unfortunately there are thousands of people in this young man's shoes who never have a TV show to save them.
> -- It's a big decision, and I don't blame you for having mixed emotions about it. Yes, there are a number of pros, but, as you have said, there are some cons. Hopefully, once you make the move and get settled, the pros will outweigh the cons. I hope everything works out. I am really keeping my fingers crossed for you that this will, in the end, be a good, positive move for you.
Thanks. I don't think I have much to lose at this point.
> -- I seemed to have a relatively positive response to L-Tyrosine. But then I added L-Glutamine into the mix early on and ended up after about two weeks on both L-Tyrosine and L-glutamine in a severely agitated state. It was incredibly unpleasant. Because I was using both together, I didn't know if it was the L-Tyrosine or the L-Glutamine or a combination of the two. But, it freaked me out so much that I stopped both and have been a little wary ever since about trying again. Maybe once I get my current state of anxiety and depression under control, I will experiment again. I was using 150mg of DMAE and that seemed to help somewhat in combination with NADH. But, I think that the anxiety I had been experiencing was derailing to some extent the effectiveness of the combo (because the anxiety would be so bad some days that I would feel exhausted from it). You may respond to a higher dose of DMAE. I had read in a couple of places that ACL provided some relief at doses of 1,000 - 2,000mg. I tried PS, but, even at doses of 200 - 300mg a day, I did not experience any noticable improvement or relief. I guess natural supplements are just like meds in one regard - you have to experiment to find the right supps or combo of supps for your own particular chemistry.I probably wouldn't have the nerve to try the l-tyrosine again either. Unfortunately, the things that tend to increase energy and motivation, also tend to cause an increase in anxiety. If you're already feeling anxious, why risk it? I think I tried 1,000 mg. of DMAE and ALC along with 100 mg. of PS but I may be mistaken. I may have increased the ALC though. I could try the higher dosage of DMAE but I was worried about it making me too tense. If I ever get the anxiety under control and I'm on either doxepin or clomipramine, then I'd be willing to try DMAE again. I'm thinking it might help to counter the anticholinergic effects of the meds. But either way, you have to do the experiment (as Larry always says) and unfortunately the experiment might be just as unpleasant as starting out on a new drug.
> -- That's great news! Sunny and several more days of sun. What a relief. I'll keep dancing. You're right too - it may help with the anxiety and depression. My sister-in-law wants me to take dance lessons with her. We have a friend who is a dance instructor, and he's really good. So, when I am feeling better, we may sign up for one of this classes. That would be fun!
What kind of dance lessons would you be taking? That sounds like fun. It was another sunny day today and I went out for a walk. It felt good.
> -- Hope you managed to get out for a walk and enjoyed it. It's so nice to walk in the sunshine. It's snowing here tody. We are expecting about 25cm or more. Ugh! Oh well, spring isn't far off (thank goodness!).
Yes, thank goodness for spring! It's probably cold where you are right up until summertime, isn't it?
Take care and talk to you soon!Kara
P.S. Did you make your other doctor's appointment yet?
Posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 9:39:53
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 7, 2005, at 20:50:18
> Hi,
>
> Unfortunately I've been a "snoozer" since I was a teenager. I so wish I weren't. Taj Mahal has a song "Take a Giant Step" and in it there's a line that goes someting like this:
>
> "Remember the feeling as a child
> when you woke up and morning smiled?"
>
> I cry everytime I hear or think of that line. It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring. Instead, I dread the day and so hit that snooze button a million times so I don't have to face it. In my more optimistic moments, like now, I feel that it's still possible to feel that excitement again so I'll try to hold onto that.
>
-- I know what you mean. I remember that feeling, and I agree with you that it is possible to feel that excitement, that joie de vivre, again. It's a wonderful thing to hold on to! For a while, I was even having problems with bedtime (weird I know). But, I would just be filled with dread about the thought of going to sleep because I was afraid I would wake up feeling as bad as I did before I fell asleep. It was like if I didn't sleep, I wouldn't have to experience the dread and emptiness anew.
>
> Yeah, you can't blame the stores from trying to protect themselves from the chronic returners. I think you're right that some of them actually wear the clothes and then return them. Yuk is right! Once I am able to function again and get a job, it will be such a thrill to get some new clothes.
>
-- I used to be a real shopaholic. And, when I couldn't find things I liked for myself, I would buy for others - just for the fun of shopping! When my brother was living with me, he didn't have a lot of disposable income (debts, saving for a house, sending money to his girlfriend [now his wife] in Colombia), so I would pick up things for him that he needed and even that he didn't need, but I thought he would like. Now that he is married and has his own place, he keeps dropping hints - I'm running of socks, t-shirts, my jeans are looking pretty bad. Even his wife is joking about it now. When I am able, I love to spoil people - especially my little brother.
>
> I did some tapping last night and didn't feel much of a result. Then I did the 5 step breathing exercise with tapping that's supposed to get your polarity straigtened out. Anyway, after that exercise I did feel more relaxed but that could just have been because of the breathing part of the exercise. I woke up this morning and felt quite anxious so I didn't think it worked. Later today I realized I felt much more optimistic and stronger than yesterday. I didn't feel like I would cry if someone looked at me wrong. I don't know if this has anything to do with the tapping. I'll try to do more exercises tonight though.
>
--That's good! If you keep doing it on a regular basis for a little while, you will have a better indication if it is helping. And, if the breathing exercises were of some benefit, then go for it. Maybe you can rent a beginners yoga video and start practicing that. I bought a cheap - Yoga for Dummies - video. I am going to start doing that for a while and then I will probably start going to a Yoga centre in my area a couple of times a week.
>
> I have the Burns handbook at home on CBT. He claims that anxiety (including GAD and panic disorder) is one of the things that CBT is particularly useful for. I can't help but be skeptical about that as well. My anxiety is so all-encompassing and so seemingly removed from my thinking. I find it hard to believe that CBT could even make a dent in the kind of anxiety I've been experiencing. Also, doctors and researchers are coming to believe that in many cases the agitation may be a form of bipolar disease. In that case, I especially can't see CBT being helpful.
>
-- I have the David Burns book as well. I started reading it, and all I kept thinking was Duh! I think CBT can be effective for OCD and constant worry that generates anxiety, but I, too, have my doubts about how effective it would be for that free-floating anxiety that one can not put a finger on where it is coming from. If anything, though, I guess it could teach a person to better manage their reaction to that type of anxiety so that it doesn't spin out of control.
> A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
>
-- Two hours - WOW - that is commitment! I don't think in some cases things like yoga, meditation, deep breathing will ever be able to replace medication, but I think practicing those things can help a person better manage their illness and maybe even have to rely on less medication. Who knows.
>
> It sounds like there's reason to be optimistic about the nort. It's too early to get too excited about it and I don't want to jinx it either but it does sound good. A little bit more agitation isn't bad if you can handle it esp. when you know that it won't last. Did you try taking the additional 25 mg. yet?
>
-- I forgot to take the additional 25mg last night, so I will up the dose tonight. Hopefully I will be able to tolerate the increased dose. But, so far, no dizziness, no nausea.
>
> I haven't tried Klonopin yet. I'm considering it though. I am a bit afraid of benzos but it may be helpful in getting me on some other AD that I'm not able to tolerate now. I also have an avoidant personality so it may be useful in that respect as well. My doctor prescribed Xanax for me but I've only taken it once. I really don't like the thought of having to take it 4X a day either and I hear it's particularly difficult to get off of it. Who knows - the nort. may end up relaxing you a lot and you might find that you don't need anything else.
>
-- I ask about Klonopin because it has a longer half life than Xanax which means less frequent dosing. I worry about it though because some people find it can, after longer term use, exacerbate depression. I have also heard that it can act almost like a mood stabilizer and may be quite effective for avoidant personality. I am only thinking of possibly adding it for short-term use - a few weeks - just to get rid of the annoying "what if" thoughts, as I get going again. I think I will raise it with the pdoc when I see him.> I haven't tried Tofranil PM either. I'm not sure what the "PM" stands for. Tofranil is imipramine if I'm not mistaken. It's profile suggests that it would probably give me tachycardia.
>
-- I think the PM means that it is once a day evening dosing. Ya, Tofranil is imipramine. I wonder if it would cause the tachycardia. I think it may be a more balanced (serotonin/norephedrine) med than nort or desp (which, as I understand it, are predominantly norephedrine). I can understand your reluctance to try it though given your experience with other nort.
>
> I think a lot of couples who come together when they're younger and not experienced enough make some very bad choices - esp. in our parents' generation - when they didn't have the option of trying it out first. On the otherhand, trying it out can lead to lack of commitment.
>
-- I think you are right about the lack of commitment. More and more people just throw in the towel on a marriage or a long-term, living together relationship when the going gets rough instead of trying to work through the problems. I have seen it with some of my friends. It's sad. Then I look at my boss and some of my colleagues or older friends who have been married for 25, 30 years and see the commitment through the good and the bad and I don't feel so sad about it anymore.
>
> Michael Moore (yes, that Michael Moore) used to have a tv show. In one segment he took on an insurance company that refused to pay for an organ transplant that would have saved a young man's life. (The young man had a wife and young child as well.) The insurance company called the procedure "experimental" (their favorite word). Anyway, without the surgery, the guy was definitely going to die. Moore went to the insurance company along with the young man (cameras following them as well). They met with a company PR person and they asked the PR guy for help in picking out coffins. They also gave the PR guy an invitation to the funeral. It was such a powerful segment. Needless to say the insurance company caved and, in fact, changed their policy on that kind of transplant. Later in the show, the man (who had since had the surgery and was now fine) stood up and the audience went wild with cheering. It was great drama and so satisfying! Unfortunately there are thousands of people in this young man's shoes who never have a TV show to save them.
>
-- That's the problem I guess - out of sight, out of mind. Unless a person has someone in their corner making a lot of noise, it is probably unlikely that they will be able to get what they need. A sad commentary - a person's good health being, to some degree, nothing more than about profit margins and big business. Maybe the day will come when the general public will band together against insurance companies. And, it isn't even just when it comes to health insurance. Insurance companies are just nickle and diming policy holders, sometimes until they are almost broke and can't afford insurance. I guess it's all about regulation, but I don't think governments have the political fortitude to attempt to impose some kind of more stringent regulatory framework.
>
> > What kind of dance lessons would you be taking? That sounds like fun. It was another sunny day today and I went out for a walk. It felt good.
>
-- I don't know what kind of dance lessons yet. I guess we'll talk to our friend and see what he suggests and go from there. I think it will be fun. Dancing is always fun. I am glad you were able to get out for another walk. It makes a difference when we are able to get out and get fresh air. You're right - it feels good :-) I have been able to get out for walks again (although it has been cold - today it is minus 22 with the wind) and it has been nice. Hopefully the weather will continue to be good in your neck of the woods so that you can keep walking.
>
> Yes, thank goodness for spring! It's probably cold where you are right up until summertime, isn't it?
>
-- It starts to warm up around May (but even then you might need a light jacket). But, it's so nice when the weather starts to change and the days start to get warmer. You can almost feel the energy all around you as people start to come out of the long winter funk.> Take care and talk to you soon!
>
Tamara
>
> P.S. Did you make your other doctor's appointment yet?
>
-- I will likely be going back to see him next week. So, I'll see what happens. >
Posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 19:39:13
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 9:39:53
Hi,
> -- I know what you mean. I remember that feeling, and I agree with you that it is possible to feel that excitement, that joie de vivre, again. It's a wonderful thing to hold on to! For a while, I was even having problems with bedtime (weird I know). But, I would just be filled with dread about the thought of going to sleep because I was afraid I would wake up feeling as bad as I did before I fell asleep. It was like if I didn't sleep, I wouldn't have to experience the dread and emptiness anew.
Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. That's a big part of the reason I don't want to go to sleep at night. Add the morning panic to the brew and you've got the rest of the picture. There's that split second when you wake up and realize the situation you're in and the panic starts. Last night I slept too long and today I feel really tired and more depressed. It's definitely counterproductive to sleep too much. Even knowing that, I can't seem to get myself going earlier.
> -- I used to be a real shopaholic. And, when I couldn't find things I liked for myself, I would buy for others - just for the fun of shopping! When my brother was living with me, he didn't have a lot of disposable income (debts, saving for a house, sending money to his girlfriend [now his wife] in Colombia), so I would pick up things for him that he needed and even that he didn't need, but I thought he would like. Now that he is married and has his own place, he keeps dropping hints - I'm running of socks, t-shirts, my jeans are looking pretty bad. Even his wife is joking about it now. When I am able, I love to spoil people - especially my little brother.Your brother is very lucky to have a sister like you. I'm sure you enjoyed spoiling him though.
> --That's good! If you keep doing it on a regular basis for a little while, you will have a better indication if it is helping. And, if the breathing exercises were of some benefit, then go for it. Maybe you can rent a beginners yoga video and start practicing that. I bought a cheap - Yoga for Dummies - video. I am going to start doing that for a while and then I will probably start going to a Yoga centre in my area a couple of times a week.I did some tapping last night around the thought of getting up in the morning. I was trying to program myself to wake up with energy and enthusiasm at the first alarm ring. It didn't work at all. I'm not quite ready to give up on it yet but I am finding it hard to believe that it can do some of the things that the authors claim. I will probably move on to meditation and/or yoga if/when this doesn't work out.
> -- I have the David Burns book as well. I started reading it, and all I kept thinking was Duh! I think CBT can be effective for OCD and constant worry that generates anxiety, but I, too, have my doubts about how effective it would be for that free-floating anxiety that one can not put a finger on where it is coming from. If anything, though, I guess it could teach a person to better manage their reaction to that type of anxiety so that it doesn't spin out of control.
Yeah, exactly. I can't imagine that it could touch that free-floating anxiety. I also find it hard to believe that it can help very much with panic disorder yet there are reports (or studies?) of it doing just that.
> > A friend of mine does yoga nearly every day for two hours in the morning. He swears by it (though he still has needed medication).
> >
> -- Two hours - WOW - that is commitment! I don't think in some cases things like yoga, meditation, deep breathing will ever be able to replace medication, but I think practicing those things can help a person better manage their illness and maybe even have to rely on less medication. Who knows.Actually, two hours a day sounds more like an addiction but it does help him a lot - so who can blame him. I'll be anxious to hear how you do with it.
> -- I forgot to take the additional 25mg last night, so I will up the dose tonight. Hopefully I will be able to tolerate the increased dose. But, so far, no dizziness, no nausea.
So far so good for the lack of side effects. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it stays that way once you go up in dose. I have very little of the anticholinergic effects that I used to have when I took doxepin in the past. I don't have orthostatic hypotension nor do I have dry mouth. My appetite is already too strong though but I think that is probably due to the antihistaminic effects of doxepin. Just a short while ago, I couldn't eat at all. Now I want to stuff my face all of the time (particularly with carbs and sugar) and I have no sense of when I'm full. That's the worst part of it. At first it was a welcome relief to be able to eat but now I wish it weren't such a strong response.
> -- I ask about Klonopin because it has a longer half life than Xanax which means less frequent dosing. I worry about it though because some people find it can, after longer term use, exacerbate depression. I have also heard that it can act almost like a mood stabilizer and may be quite effective for avoidant personality. I am only thinking of possibly adding it for short-term use - a few weeks - just to get rid of the annoying "what if" thoughts, as I get going again. I think I will raise it with the pdoc when I see him.
I hadn't heard of Klonopin being good for avoidant personality disorder but that's definitely another reason to try it. I've also just learned what you said about it being good as a mood stabilizer. That's also another reason for me to try it. Do you think your pdoc will be amenable or do you think you'll have to fight for it?
> -- I think the PM means that it is once a day evening dosing. Ya, Tofranil is imipramine. I wonder if it would cause the tachycardia. I think it may be a more balanced (serotonin/norephedrine) med than nort or desp (which, as I understand it, are predominantly norephedrine). I can understand your reluctance to try it though given your experience with other nort.
I think imipramine might metabolize to desipramine. It would definitely give me tachycardia then but it's not out of the question that someday I try desipramine or imipramine with a beta blocker. My current pdoc wouldn't go for it but they're on my list if nothing else pans out.
> -- I think you are right about the lack of commitment. More and more people just throw in the towel on a marriage or a long-term, living together relationship when the going gets rough instead of trying to work through the problems. I have seen it with some of my friends. It's sad. Then I look at my boss and some of my colleagues or older friends who have been married for 25, 30 years and see the commitment through the good and the bad and I don't feel so sad about it anymore.
My mother told my sister and I to always live with someone first before getting married so we knew what we were getting in to. This is the exact opposite advice that every one of my friends got from their parents. I think there are advantages and disadvantages. My sister did live with her husband first (his mother thought it was horrible) and they've been married for over twenty years now. I agree it's nice to see couples who have been together a long time and are still happy together. Unfortunately that's not the way it works for everyone.
> -- That's the problem I guess - out of sight, out of mind. Unless a person has someone in their corner making a lot of noise, it is probably unlikely that they will be able to get what they need. A sad commentary - a person's good health being, to some degree, nothing more than about profit margins and big business. Maybe the day will come when the general public will band together against insurance companies. And, it isn't even just when it comes to health insurance. Insurance companies are just nickle and diming policy holders, sometimes until they are almost broke and can't afford insurance. I guess it's all about regulation, but I don't think governments have the political fortitude to attempt to impose some kind of more stringent regulatory framework.
Yes, sad state of affairs indeed. The insurance companies are big contributors to political campaigns so the impetus to reign them in is just not there.
> -- I don't know what kind of dance lessons yet. I guess we'll talk to our friend and see what he suggests and go from there. I think it will be fun. Dancing is always fun. I am glad you were able to get out for another walk. It makes a difference when we are able to get out and get fresh air. You're right - it feels good :-) I have been able to get out for walks again (although it has been cold - today it is minus 22 with the wind) and it has been nice. Hopefully the weather will continue to be good in your neck of the woods so that you can keep walking.
I haven't done any dancing lately but I did go out for a short walk today. It wasn't a good half hour or more walk as I had planned but it was something. The weather was perfect so I couldn't blame it on that. I was just really feeling tired. I think oversleeping was the problem today. I am still feeling tired now. I have some coffee brewing now and hope that will wake me up a bit. This is actually a big step for me. I haven't had caffeine in over two months. I think I'll try half a cup first. Recently that would have sent me through the roof with anxiety. The fact that I feel up to trying some now is a really good sign. I'm still a bit scared though. Sounds so silly, doesn't it?
> -- It starts to warm up around May (but even then you might need a light jacket). But, it's so nice when the weather starts to change and the days start to get warmer. You can almost feel the energy all around you as people start to come out of the long winter funk.
I remember what that used to be like. Actually it's probably similar to people going out into the sunshine here after weeks of rain.
Talk to you later.
Kara> -- I will likely be going back to see him next week. So, I'll see what happens. >
Only problem is that with the timing of things, how will you know what improvement is due to nort. and what is due to the doctor?
Posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 22:17:26
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 8, 2005, at 19:39:13
> Hi,
>
> Oh, I know exactly what you're saying. That's a big part of the reason I don't want to go to sleep at night. Add the morning panic to the brew and you've got the rest of the picture. There's that split second when you wake up and realize the situation you're in and the panic starts. Last night I slept too long and today I feel really tired and more depressed. It's definitely counterproductive to sleep too much. Even knowing that, I can't seem to get myself going earlier.
>
-- I have found that too - when I sleep too much, I feel groggy, foggy and down. And yet, sometimes extra sleep is just what the body and mind need. My mom is a firm believer in sleeping to heal. When she is stressed, she sleeps. When she is depressed, she sleeps. When she is sick, she sleeps. Growing up it was quite stressful in our house because of my dad's volatility and raging temper, so my mom slept a lot. But, it was her way of coping. When the storm died down, she was usually somewhat productive again. I think sometimes we just have to set some early morning goals for ourselves to get into a routine, but realize that it can be easier said than done. I am glad that I have a dog because she gets me out in the morning. One thing I have tried to do as I have struggled with this bout of depression and anxiety is to make sure I got up every morning and took her out for a walk, even if it was only for 20 or 30 minutes, and then again in the evening. Some days it was a struggle, but a good one I think. Maybe you could find a walking buddy and arrange an early morning walk for one or two mornings a week to start with.
>
> Your brother is very lucky to have a sister like you. I'm sure you enjoyed spoiling him though.
>
-- He probably has other views on that ;-) I just like doing things for others. I have been like that since I was a kid. I prefer to do for others than for myself. Now don't laugh. When I first starting earning my own money (babysitting when I was about 11), I would go christmas shopping in about October. I was always so excited to pick out gifts for people. Anyway, I would get so excited with my piddly little purchases (back then, a babysitter was making about 50 cents to a dollar an hour :-)), that I would wrap everything up, and give everyone in the family their presents in October. Then I would go through the same thing again in November. And, finally, the December purchases went under the tree. I have been a weird and warped individual for quite some time. Ah, the innocence of childhood.
>
> I did some tapping last night around the thought of getting up in the morning. I was trying to program myself to wake up with energy and enthusiasm at the first alarm ring. It didn't work at all. I'm not quite ready to give up on it yet but I am finding it hard to believe that it can do some of the things that the authors claim. I will probably move on to meditation and/or yoga if/when this doesn't work out.
>
-- No, I wouldn't give up yet. The practitioner I saw said that it can take a few sessions to tap away some of the really troubling and persistent problems. And even then a person might need to do some follow-up or re-focussing tapping. The nice thing about meditation and yoga is that they have been around for a long, long time and can really be seen as tried and true forms for relaxation for many people. It takes practice, but I think once a person manages to perfect their technique, it can be quite beneficial and soothing. And, yoga is a form of exercise, so if nothing else, a person can tone up and improve their posture :-)
>
> Actually, two hours a day sounds more like an addiction but it does help him a lot - so who can blame him. I'll be anxious to hear how you do with it.
>
-- I have read that some people can actually become addicted to their exercise regime and make themselves sick. I taught aerobics when I was in my mid 20s (so that is quite a few years ago) and I was quite obsessed about working out. I would get to work about 1.5 hours before my shift so I could work out with free weights and the machines. Then my shift would typically consist of teaching 3 45 minute high impact classes. I loved it, but my shins had taken a beating by the end of the week. But, I was becoming obsessed with working out. I toned it down after a while and now, because of my hours at work, my exercise regime is long brisk walks with my dog and some floor exercises with hand and ankle weights (when I have the time and energy). I want to get back into going to a gym. But, I first want to try the yoga. Hopefully within the next week or so I will be able to try a class or two.
>
> So far so good for the lack of side effects. I'll keep my fingers crossed that it stays that way once you go up in dose. I have very little of the anticholinergic effects that I used to have when I took doxepin in the past. I don't have orthostatic hypotension nor do I have dry mouth. My appetite is already too strong though but I think that is probably due to the antihistaminic effects of doxepin. Just a short while ago, I couldn't eat at all. Now I want to stuff my face all of the time (particularly with carbs and sugar) and I have no sense of when I'm full. That's the worst part of it. At first it was a welcome relief to be able to eat but now I wish it weren't such a strong response.
>
-- That's good that you are not experiencing troubling side effects from the Doxepin. I don't know about you, but I found the orthostatic hypotension the worst. I know what you mean about the increased appetite. It's nice for a time after having not been able to eat for a while, but then it's like "where's the off switch". Did you have a chance to try the chromium? Apparently it is supposed to help with sugar cravings and maybe even appetite suppression. I started using it when I was trialing Anafranil, and I found it helped with the sugar/carb cravings.
>
> I hadn't heard of Klonopin being good for avoidant personality disorder but that's definitely another reason to try it. I've also just learned what you said about it being good as a mood stabilizer. That's also another reason for me to try it. Do you think your pdoc will be amenable or do you think you'll have to fight for it?
>
-- I will probably have to fight for it. I am so embarrassed to say this, but I have found after the past number of months of being physically ill and experiencing the depression/anxiety, I am worried about doing certain things - like travelling by bus to go downtown (where I work). I feel like a fool, but when I think about getting on the bus and going to the mall near where I work, I feel a sense of dread. Does that make sense? I only had one episode that could be considered a panic attack, but it was on the bus and I got off the bus at that mall. I have been back on the bus and to that particular mall, but with much discomfort. I am hoping that something like Klonopin will quell the inner turmoil I experience and the "what if" ruminations so that I can get over that hump. And, it is those feelings that have me worried about my return to work. Phew, I have held that in for a while. Sorry to unload. I am embarrassed about those feelings, and my pdoc just keeps saying - do it, it will get easier. But it doesn't. So, I may have to put my foot down and tell him that I need to function and if I am going to be able to work on making it easier, I need something to at least allow me to do that.
>
> I think imipramine might metabolize to desipramine. It would definitely give me tachycardia then but it's not out of the question that someday I try desipramine or imipramine with a beta blocker. My current pdoc wouldn't go for it but they're on my list if nothing else pans out.
>
-- May well be. I think I have a chart that says what some of the TCAs metabolize to. I will see if Imipramine is there and let you know. At least you know that despiramine is an option if your pdoc will agree to a beta blocker. So, that's something to definitely keep in your back pocket. I think that the nice thing about the TCAs, at least as I understand it, is that they all work a little differently. So, if a person doesn't respond well to one, there are others to try.
>
> My mother told my sister and I to always live with someone first before getting married so we knew what we were getting in to. This is the exact opposite advice that every one of my friends got from their parents. I think there are advantages and disadvantages. My sister did live with her husband first (his mother thought it was horrible) and they've been married for over twenty years now. I agree it's nice to see couples who have been together a long time and are still happy together. Unfortunately that's not the way it works for everyone.
>
-- Your mom is very progressive. I agree with you that there are advantages and disadvantages to living together first. For some, it reinforces the couple's compatability and, for others, it may illuminate the striking differences that would sabotage a marriage no matter how hard the couple tried to make it work. That's nice about your sister's marriage. I like hearing about the lasting marriages. It is unfortunate that it does not work that way for everyone. I think some problems are just not fixable and it is in everyone's best interest that the marriage end.
>
> I haven't done any dancing lately but I did go out for a short walk today. It wasn't a good half hour or more walk as I had planned but it was something. The weather was perfect so I couldn't blame it on that. I was just really feeling tired. I think oversleeping was the problem today. I am still feeling tired now. I have some coffee brewing now and hope that will wake me up a bit. This is actually a big step for me. I haven't had caffeine in over two months. I think I'll try half a cup first. Recently that would have sent me through the roof with anxiety. The fact that I feel up to trying some now is a really good sign. I'm still a bit scared though. Sounds so silly, doesn't it?
>
-- A short walk is good. Like Larry always says - "start low, and go slow" :-). The same principle can apply to exercise. Each day, do what is comfortable, then slowly increase and build up. You sound like me with the coffee, and it does not sound silly at all. I had given up coffee over 8 years ago (after many, many years of 12 or more cups a day - I was an addict). Last August I had a few cups. But, since about mid-January, I have started drinking coffee again. Like you, I was worried about increasing my anxiety, but felt it was a good sign if I was able to drink a cup or two. I had forgotten how good coffee was :-) Yum! Yum! Half a cup is a good start, just to see how you react. I have found that having a cup or two of coffee does have a positive effect on my mood. I over did it today and had four cups, which left me feeling a bit wired. So, tomorrow, one or two cups only.
>
> > I remember what that used to be like. Actually it's probably similar to people going out into the sunshine here after weeks of rain.
>
-- I would think it is the same since rain tends to have a mood dampening (no pun intended) effect).Take care, and I will talk to you later.
Tamara
>
> Only problem is that with the timing of things, how will you know what improvement is due to nort. and what is due to the doctor?
>
-- That's true. I am thinking that I may be able to make a distinction by changes to my physical well-being (less fatigue, less bruising, etc.). I will have to pay close attention though for sure.
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 8:57:30
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » ed_uk, posted by TamaraJ on March 7, 2005, at 13:35:50
Hi!
>Just a question - is increased agitation/anxiety a common start-up side effect with nort?
I think a lot of people feel 'jittery' or 'wired' at first, it's not normally sever anxiety though. Perhaps it would be best to stay on 25mg until this side effect resolves.
Best Regards,
Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 9:01:31
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 9:39:53
Hello,
>It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring.
Oh yes, that would be lovely! It would be very nice to jump out of bed. I often wake up and reset my alarm for 30mins later, then I wake up again and reset it again- the cycle goes on and on until I'm late.
Ed.
Posted by TamaraJ on March 9, 2005, at 11:43:31
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 9:01:31
> Hello,
>
> >It would be so nice to have that feeling again - to jump out of bed with excitement of what the day might bring.
>
> Oh yes, that would be lovely! It would be very nice to jump out of bed. I often wake up and reset my alarm for 30mins later, then I wake up again and reset it again- the cycle goes on and on until I'm late.
>
> Ed.Hey Ed!
LOL :-):-) We should do a poll to see how many times people hit the snooze button before getting out of bed :-)
Here's a little song to keep in your head as you reach for the snooze button :-)
“Put one foot in front of the other,
Soon you’ll be walking across the floor!
Put one foot in front of the other,
Soon you’ll be walking out the door!”You can imagine I'm singing that to you because, you know, I am just a fabulous singer :-):-) Not! Quick - grab some ear plugs! Ouch, that's painful :-) Make it stop Mommy pleeeeeeease :-)
Tamara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 9, 2005, at 11:49:06
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 8:57:30
Thanks Ed. It feels similar to how I felt when I first took Paxil years ago. It's a kind of hyperness, which isn't too bad really. Some of it may be as a result of my drinking coffee again (and, a couple of days I had about 5 cups :-), plus I ate chocolate a couple of times). I took my first 50mg dose last night. So, I'll see how it goes. I don't want to jinx myself by singing nort's praises for me yet (but I remain optimistic). Fingers, toes, legs and eyes crossed :-)
Tamara
> Hi!
>
> >Just a question - is increased agitation/anxiety a common start-up side effect with nort?
>
> I think a lot of people feel 'jittery' or 'wired' at first, it's not normally sever anxiety though. Perhaps it would be best to stay on 25mg until this side effect resolves.
>
> Best Regards,
> Ed.
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 12:43:41
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » ed_uk, posted by TamaraJ on March 9, 2005, at 11:49:06
Hi Tamara!
>“Put one foot in front of the other,
Soon you’ll be walking across the floor!
Put one foot in front of the other,
Soon you’ll be walking out the door!”Lol, I try to think of that tomorrow morning!
>I took my first 50mg dose last night.
I'm optimistic too, don't drink too much coffee :-)
Ed.
Posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 1:44:42
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 8, 2005, at 22:17:26
> > Hi,
> >
> -- I have found that too - when I sleep too much, I feel groggy, foggy and down. And yet, sometimes extra sleep is just what the body and mind need. My mom is a firm believer in sleeping to heal. When she is stressed, she sleeps. When she is depressed, she sleeps. When she is sick, she sleeps. Growing up it was quite stressful in our house because of my dad's volatility and raging temper, so my mom slept a lot. But, it was her way of coping. When the storm died down, she was usually somewhat productive again. I think sometimes we just have to set some early morning goals for ourselves to get into a routine, but realize that it can be easier said than done. I am glad that I have a dog because she gets me out in the morning. One thing I have tried to do as I have struggled with this bout of depression and anxiety is to make sure I got up every morning and took her out for a walk, even if it was only for 20 or 30 minutes, and then again in the evening. Some days it was a struggle, but a good one I think. Maybe you could find a walking buddy and arrange an early morning walk for one or two mornings a week to start with.Yes, I think it would have to be an outside obligation to keep me getting up on time and out of the house. Your dog is a good influence on you. Unfortunately my cats refuse to walk on a leash (and I have tried!).
> -- He probably has other views on that ;-) I just like doing things for others. I have been like that since I was a kid. I prefer to do for others than for myself. Now don't laugh. When I first starting earning my own money (babysitting when I was about 11), I would go christmas shopping in about October. I was always so excited to pick out gifts for people. Anyway, I would get so excited with my piddly little purchases (back then, a babysitter was making about 50 cents to a dollar an hour :-)), that I would wrap everything up, and give everyone in the family their presents in October. Then I would go through the same thing again in November. And, finally, the December purchases went under the tree. I have been a weird and warped individual for quite some time. Ah, the innocence of childhood.
That's such a sweet story about your Christmas shopping. I was very touched by it. I think your whole family is very lucky to have you as a member!
> -- No, I wouldn't give up yet. The practitioner I saw said that it can take a few sessions to tap away some of the really troubling and persistent problems. And even then a person might need to do some follow-up or re-focussing tapping. The nice thing about meditation and yoga is that they have been around for a long, long time and can really be seen as tried and true forms for relaxation for many people. It takes practice, but I think once a person manages to perfect their technique, it can be quite beneficial and soothing. And, yoga is a form of exercise, so if nothing else, a person can tone up and improve their posture :-)
Another good thing about meditation is that it is a lot easier to do - not so many different instructions as in Lambrou's tapping book. I did more tapping last night. I didn't see any benefit from it then or now. I'm still not ready to give up on it but I think one might need more information or instruction than is possible in a book. Either that or it just doesn't work well for me.
> -- I have read that some people can actually become addicted to their exercise regime and make themselves sick. I taught aerobics when I was in my mid 20s (so that is quite a few years ago) and I was quite obsessed about working out. I would get to work about 1.5 hours before my shift so I could work out with free weights and the machines. Then my shift would typically consist of teaching 3 45 minute high impact classes. I loved it, but my shins had taken a beating by the end of the week. But, I was becoming obsessed with working out. I toned it down after a while and now, because of my hours at work, my exercise regime is long brisk walks with my dog and some floor exercises with hand and ankle weights (when I have the time and energy). I want to get back into going to a gym. But, I first want to try the yoga. Hopefully within the next week or so I will be able to try a class or two.
I guess there are worse things to become addicted to besides exercise. I wish that would happen to me! Yoga is great exercise for flexibility and for the mind but it doesn't take the place of aerobic activity. Unfortunately there aren't enough hours in the day to do all of the things we want to do and to go to work as well.
> -- That's good that you are not experiencing troubling side effects from the Doxepin. I don't know about you, but I found the orthostatic hypotension the worst. I know what you mean about the increased appetite. It's nice for a time after having not been able to eat for a while, but then it's like "where's the off switch". Did you have a chance to try the chromium? Apparently it is supposed to help with sugar cravings and maybe even appetite suppression. I started using it when I was trialing Anafranil, and I found it helped with the sugar/carb cravings.
I still haven't had the orthostatic hypotension yet. I probably will if I increase my Doxepin dosage or start on Anafranil. I did start taking the chromium again. It may be helping. I'm not sure.
> -- I will probably have to fight for it. I am so embarrassed to say this, but I have found after the past number of months of being physically ill and experiencing the depression/anxiety, I am worried about doing certain things - like travelling by bus to go downtown (where I work). I feel like a fool, but when I think about getting on the bus and going to the mall near where I work, I feel a sense of dread. Does that make sense? I only had one episode that could be considered a panic attack, but it was on the bus and I got off the bus at that mall. I have been back on the bus and to that particular mall, but with much discomfort. I am hoping that something like Klonopin will quell the inner turmoil I experience and the "what if" ruminations so that I can get over that hump. And, it is those feelings that have me worried about my return to work. Phew, I have held that in for a while. Sorry to unload. I am embarrassed about those feelings, and my pdoc just keeps saying - do it, it will get easier. But it doesn't. So, I may have to put my foot down and tell him that I need to function and if I am going to be able to work on making it easier, I need something to at least allow me to do that.
That's not wierd. It's very standard to be afraid of going to the place you've experienced a panic attack. I was so stressed a couple of weeks ago that I was becoming afraid of going out anywhere. I was much too stressed to drive as well. I understand completely. I bet that Klonopin or another benzo would help you over that hump. Once you start replacing the bad memories with good ones, you'll stop being afraid of those situations. The other thing you can do is mediation with visualizations. You visualize yourself in those situations and handling them well and the while you're calm from the meditation.
> -- May well be. I think I have a chart that says what some of the TCAs metabolize to. I will see if Imipramine is there and let you know. At least you know that despiramine is an option if your pdoc will agree to a beta blocker. So, that's something to definitely keep in your back pocket. I think that the nice thing about the TCAs, at least as I understand it, is that they all work a little differently. So, if a person doesn't respond well to one, there are others to try.
I'd definitely have to get a new pdoc for the beta blocker. If I did go that route, then nort. or desipramine would be my first choices. It's amazing how different I felt when I tried those two before versus how I feel when I take doxepin.
> -- Your mom is very progressive. I agree with you that there are advantages and disadvantages to living together first. For some, it reinforces the couple's compatability and, for others, it may illuminate the striking differences that would sabotage a marriage no matter how hard the couple tried to make it work. That's nice about your sister's marriage. I like hearing about the lasting marriages. It is unfortunate that it does not work that way for everyone. I think some problems are just not fixable and it is in everyone's best interest that the marriage end.
My mother is really different from most parents. I remember when I graduated from college, I really didn't want to go to the graduation ceremony. A lot of my friends felt the same way. I attended a huge school so the whole thing was so impersonal. I had no interest in going. My friends' parents all made them go because they wanted to see them graduate. My mother said, "Must I go to that? You know how I hate those things." She often takes a view that you wouldn't expect. One of her other strange traits is that she always thinks everyone is gay. She has her doubts about me as well. She cracks me up.
> -- A short walk is good. Like Larry always says - "start low, and go slow" :-). The same principle can apply to exercise. Each day, do what is comfortable, then slowly increase and build up. You sound like me with the coffee, and it does not sound silly at all. I had given up coffee over 8 years ago (after many, many years of 12 or more cups a day - I was an addict). Last August I had a few cups. But, since about mid-January, I have started drinking coffee again. Like you, I was worried about increasing my anxiety, but felt it was a good sign if I was able to drink a cup or two. I had forgotten how good coffee was :-) Yum! Yum! Half a cup is a good start, just to see how you react. I have found that having a cup or two of coffee does have a positive effect on my mood. I over did it today and had four cups, which left me feeling a bit wired. So, tomorrow, one or two cups only.
I once gave up coffee for a couple of years but that's it. 8 years is very impressive! How did you ever manage to get up and go to work all of those years without coffee in the morning? I've never drank as many as 12 cups a day. I just couldn't tolerate more than a couple of cups a day. It does help with mood and concentration though I would think it would become counterproductive when you drink too much of it. I just love the taste of it too.
> -- That's true. I am thinking that I may be able to make a distinction by changes to my physical well-being (less fatigue, less bruising, etc.). I will have to pay close attention though for sure.
So did you take the 50 mg. of nort. last night? Still going well?
Take care,
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 12:20:24
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 1:44:42
> > > Hi,
>
> Your dog is a good influence on you. Unfortunately my cats refuse to walk on a leash (and I have tried!).
>
-- Cats are such wonderful pets, but sure have minds of their own :-) Regardless, they are nice company. When I lived downtown, I saw some people walking their cats on leashes (just around the front of the building they lived in). But, it must have been something they had been doing since they were little. My mom's cat now is an indoor cat and probably wouldn't know what to do with himself if was outside. He's developing these little idiocyncracies lately. My mom was telling me that he is now in the habit of taking his little toys (even an old fake poppy) downstairs and hiding them. We think it's because everytime my dog is at my mom's house she plays with his little cat toys. So, he is hiding everything now in case the dog comes over (pretty crafy eh?). My dog used to be quite fussy about walking in the rain. If it was raining, she wouldn't budge off the front step. I had to tug and tug until finally she caved in. But it was pitiful because every few steps she would stop and shake herself off. She's ok now, but for a while it was a real power struggle to get her out in the rain. I don't blame her really. We got caught in a wicked rain storm once when we were walking back from the river (and we had about another 1/2 hour walk before we got home). It was after that that she developed an aversion to walking in the rain. Poor little thing. Probably thinks she'll melt or something if she gets wet :-) She's a kook!
>
> Another good thing about meditation is that it is a lot easier to do - not so many different instructions as in Lambrou's tapping book. I did more tapping last night. I didn't see any benefit from it then or now. I'm still not ready to give up on it but I think one might need more information or instruction than is possible in a book. Either that or it just doesn't work well for me.
>
-- That's the thing about the tapping. It seems that you have to be so precise in your thinking about what you are trying to tap away. So, if you are off the mark (because of some repressed anxiety?) then you won't get the results you want. At least that is how I understood it from the woman who did my first two sessions. But, I wouldn't give up yet. You really have nothing to lose - except the anxiety - and it isn't all that time-consuming. Meditation, once you get the hang of it, is, I believe, something that can be very beneficial. Hey, have you done any more accupressure? That might be better than the tapping at this point. And, has your friend been over to give you another Reiki treatment? It would be interesting to see if you have another positive response to a second Reiki treatment.
>
> I guess there are worse things to become addicted to besides exercise. I wish that would happen to me! Yoga is great exercise for flexibility and for the mind but it doesn't take the place of aerobic activity. Unfortunately there aren't enough hours in the day to do all of the things we want to do and to go to work as well.
>
-- No, it doesn't take the place of aerobic exercise that's for sure. It's true there just aren't enough hours in the day to do everything. I am thinking about getting a bike for this spring/summer/fall. Cycling is good aerobic exercise, and I live right by a lot of bike trails along the river. It would also be handy to use to go get groceries and go shopping instead of waiting on buses all the time.
>
> I still haven't had the orthostatic hypotension yet. I probably will if I increase my Doxepin dosage or start on Anafranil. I did start taking the chromium again. It may be helping. I'm not sure.
>
-- That's great! I would imagine if you have been able to tolerate the Doxepin that you would likely be able to tolerate Anafranil as well. Speaking of Anafranil, I submitted to post on the meds board to Link to see how is doing on Anafranil. I think it's been over a week or so since he started. I'm interested to see how he is tolerating it. I ran out of chromium, so I haven't taken any for a few days. I notice a difference in how I feel when I wake up. I have to pick up some more on the weekend.
>
> That's not wierd. It's very standard to be afraid of going to the place you've experienced a panic attack. I was so stressed a couple of weeks ago that I was becoming afraid of going out anywhere. I was much too stressed to drive as well. I understand completely. I bet that Klonopin or another benzo would help you over that hump. Once you start replacing the bad memories with good ones, you'll stop being afraid of those situations. The other thing you can do is mediation with visualizations. You visualize yourself in those situations and handling them well and the while you're calm from the meditation.
>
-- That's the way I look at it. Once I replace bad memories with good ones, I will be ok. The problem I was having and trying to make the pdoc understand is that although I would put myself back into the situation where the panic occurred, I couldn't put it out of my mind no matter how much CBT I did. So, my weird reasoning is that if I use something like Klonopin for a month or so, it will be like a nice security blanket and I won't obsess over a "what if" situation. I am also nervous about work because I do have a tendency towards workaholism, and my fear is that I will get right back into my old habits again. Oh well, only time will tell. I just have to put the fears and the anxieties behind me and move forward.
>
> I'd definitely have to get a new pdoc for the beta blocker. If I did go that route, then nort. or desipramine would be my first choices. It's amazing how different I felt when I tried those two before versus how I feel when I take doxepin.
>
-- And who knows. If you decide to try Anafranil, it may turn out to be the right med for you and then you won't have to worry about a beta blocker. It would be a shame to have to change pdocs since you seem to really like the one you have now.
>
> My mother is really different from most parents. I remember when I graduated from college, I really didn't want to go to the graduation ceremony. A lot of my friends felt the same way. I attended a huge school so the whole thing was so impersonal. I had no interest in going. My friends' parents all made them go because they wanted to see them graduate. My mother said, "Must I go to that? You know how I hate those things." She often takes a view that you wouldn't expect. One of her other strange traits is that she always thinks everyone is gay. She has her doubts about me as well. She cracks me up.
>
-- My mom sounds like a hoot! My mom was always different than the other mom's as well. She was one of those mom's that never forced us to eat things we didn't like or made us sit at the table until we finished the food on our plates. And, as we got older, we started trying things on our own and eating things that at one point we wouldn't go near. There was a method to her madness I guess. I remember going to a friend's house for lunch one day when I was a kid. The mother gave me a glass of milk with my meal and I told her I don't drink milk because it makes me ill. She said all kids drink milk in that house, and if didn't drink my milk I wouldn't be welcome for lunch again. I packed myself up and left and never went back. Screw her! :-) Although I was shy, I still did my own thing even at a young age.
>
> I once gave up coffee for a couple of years but that's it. 8 years is very impressive! How did you ever manage to get up and go to work all of those years without coffee in the morning? I've never drank as many as 12 cups a day. I just couldn't tolerate more than a couple of cups a day. It does help with mood and concentration though I would think it would become counterproductive when you drink too much of it. I just love the taste of it too.
>
-- I must have been crazy to give it up! The first month was rough, but after that I didn't even notice a difference in my energy in the morning. I think I must have been in a vicious cycle of high adrenalin (I have spelled that wrong) for years - peaking and crashing - that once my system was given a break my natural energy stabilized. Who knows. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. But, now I think if I can drink coffee in moderation, then I will reap some benefits from it. I love the taste and the smell - Ahhhhhhh - especially the smell of coffee beans being ground. Even the smell can give me a boost of energy :-)
>
> So did you take the 50 mg. of nort. last night? Still going well?
>
-- I have taken 50mg two nights in a row now, and so far, so good. I am going to try taking it a little earlier in the evening though (like around 9 p.m. instead of around 10:30 p.m.). I find I sleep really well on it. The past two nights I didn't wake up even once in the night (which is unusual for me). But, this morning I slept in. So, I think I will try 8 or 9 p.m. tonight to see if it makes a difference.Take care,
Tamara
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 19:00:29
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » KaraS, posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 12:20:24
Hi,
> >
> >
> -- Cats are such wonderful pets, but sure have minds of their own :-) Regardless, they are nice company. When I lived downtown, I saw some people walking their cats on leashes (just around the front of the building they lived in). But, it must have been something they had been doing since they were little. My mom's cat now is an indoor cat and probably wouldn't know what to do with himself if was outside. He's developing these little idiocyncracies lately. My mom was telling me that he is now in the habit of taking his little toys (even an old fake poppy) downstairs and hiding them. We think it's because everytime my dog is at my mom's house she plays with his little cat toys. So, he is hiding everything now in case the dog comes over (pretty crafy eh?). My dog used to be quite fussy about walking in the rain. If it was raining, she wouldn't budge off the front step. I had to tug and tug until finally she caved in. But it was pitiful because every few steps she would stop and shake herself off. She's ok now, but for a while it was a real power struggle to get her out in the rain. I don't blame her really. We got caught in a wicked rain storm once when we were walking back from the river (and we had about another 1/2 hour walk before we got home). It was after that that she developed an aversion to walking in the rain. Poor little thing. Probably thinks she'll melt or something if she gets wet :-) She's a kook!Apparently you have to train cats on a leash at a very early age. I think mine were close to a year old when I tried and they didn't take to it at all. Your mom's cat is very smart to hide her toys from the dog. Your dog is also smart to not want to go outside during a rain storm. I used to try to walk my sister's dog when it was raining. Nothing short of a bomb underneath her could have accomplished that though. At any rate, it's a good thing you have to go out to walk her.
> -- That's the thing about the tapping. It seems that you have to be so precise in your thinking about what you are trying to tap away. So, if you are off the mark (because of some repressed anxiety?) then you won't get the results you want. At least that is how I understood it from the woman who did my first two sessions. But, I wouldn't give up yet. You really have nothing to lose - except the anxiety - and it isn't all that time-consuming. Meditation, once you get the hang of it, is, I believe, something that can be very beneficial. Hey, have you done any more accupressure? That might be better than the tapping at this point. And, has your friend been over to give you another Reiki treatment? It would be interesting to see if you have another positive response to a second Reiki treatment.
There are a lot of things that can interfere witht the tapping according to the authors (repressed issues, not enough water in your system, reversed polarities blah, blah, blah). Also, I could be missing the right spots in some cases. It's too much to get a handle on. Maybe a professional could help me for at least a session or two but I don't have the money for that now. Also, I was using the term accupressure to describe the tapping since the book I have also uses that term in its title.
I'd rather get a CES device - run some electricity to my brain and be done with it!> -- No, it doesn't take the place of aerobic exercise that's for sure. It's true there just aren't enough hours in the day to do everything. I am thinking about getting a bike for this spring/summer/fall. Cycling is good aerobic exercise, and I live right by a lot of bike trails along the river. It would also be handy to use to go get groceries and go shopping instead of waiting on buses all the time.
Cycling is definitely good exercise. I had a stationary bike which I sold to my neighbor. I'm kind of sorry that I did. In your case an outside bike sounds like it would be very useful as well as providing aerobic activity.
> -- That's great! I would imagine if you have been able to tolerate the Doxepin that you would likely be able to tolerate Anafranil as well. Speaking of Anafranil, I submitted to post on the meds board to Link to see how is doing on Anafranil. I think it's been over a week or so since he started. I'm interested to see how he is tolerating it. I ran out of chromium, so I haven't taken any for a few days. I notice a difference in how I feel when I wake up. I have to pick up some more on the weekend.
I don't know yet if I'll be able to tolerate the Anafranil. I'm only tolerating 25 mg. of doxepin so I'm not at a therapeutic dose now. Yesterday and today it feels like my heart is skipping beats - a kind of a fluttering feeling once in a while. I've had this feeling before when I oversleep a lot but I've only been getting about 8 hours of sleep a night. Still it feels like too much sleep. I hope that's all it is. I know that TCAs can have cardio effects but it's hard to imagine that only 25 mg. could be a problem.
I've been wondering also how Linkage was doing on the clomipramine. I'm not sure if it's a good sign or a bad one that we haven't heard anything from him in a few days. I'm crossing my fingers that this helps him a lot.
Interesting that you've been able to detect so much effect from chromium supplementation. I'm still taking it but am still not sure it's helping. I think I should probably take it for a while and then stop to see if I notice a difference.
> -- That's the way I look at it. Once I replace bad memories with good ones, I will be ok. The problem I was having and trying to make the pdoc understand is that although I would put myself back into the situation where the panic occurred, I couldn't put it out of my mind no matter how much CBT I did. So, my weird reasoning is that if I use something like Klonopin for a month or so, it will be like a nice security blanket and I won't obsess over a "what if" situation. I am also nervous about work because I do have a tendency towards workaholism, and my fear is that I will get right back into my old habits again. Oh well, only time will tell. I just have to put the fears and the anxieties behind me and move forward.
I think your plan is very sound. Hopefully your pdoc will agree. It sounds like you're back to thinking that you'll go back to work on time. That's great. I bet that the nort. had something to do with that. Hopefully you'll also be able to keep yourself from working too long hours so you don't burn out.
> -- And who knows. If you decide to try Anafranil, it may turn out to be the right med for you and then you won't have to worry about a beta blocker. It would be a shame to have to change pdocs since you seem to really like the one you have now.
Hopefully, that'll be the case. I'm more than a little bit afraid of adding a beta blocker to the mix anyway. I will temporarily not be using my pdoc since I'll be starting at a free clinic soon. I can't keep bothering my pdoc to help me over the phone when I'm not even paying him for anything. Once I have a job and health insurance, then I'll be able to go back to him.
> -- My mom sounds like a hoot! My mom was always different than the other mom's as well. She was one of those mom's that never forced us to eat things we didn't like or made us sit at the table until we finished the food on our plates. And, as we got older, we started trying things on our own and eating things that at one point we wouldn't go near. There was a method to her madness I guess. I remember going to a friend's house for lunch one day when I was a kid. The mother gave me a glass of milk with my meal and I told her I don't drink milk because it makes me ill. She said all kids drink milk in that house, and if didn't drink my milk I wouldn't be welcome for lunch again. I packed myself up and left and never went back. Screw her! :-) Although I was shy, I still did my own thing even at a young age.
What nerve your friend's mother had! She could dictate what her children have to eat and drink, but what right did she have to tell you what to do? I'm the same way. Always marched to my own beat and quite headstrong but still on the shy side.
> -- I must have been crazy to give it up! The first month was rough, but after that I didn't even notice a difference in my energy in the morning. I think I must have been in a vicious cycle of high adrenalin (I have spelled that wrong) for years - peaking and crashing - that once my system was given a break my natural energy stabilized. Who knows. It just seemed like the right thing to do at the time. But, now I think if I can drink coffee in moderation, then I will reap some benefits from it. I love the taste and the smell - Ahhhhhhh - especially the smell of coffee beans being ground. Even the smell can give me a boost of energy :-)Too much coffee is definitely counterproductive but I think that a couple of cups a day is very therapeutic. I'm not a connoisseur of it. My favorite is the flavored stuff esp. hazelnut. Here is southern California that is considered very tacky, to say the least, but I don't care.
> -- I have taken 50mg two nights in a row now, and so far, so good. I am going to try taking it a little earlier in the evening though (like around 9 p.m. instead of around 10:30 p.m.). I find I sleep really well on it. The past two nights I didn't wake up even once in the night (which is unusual for me). But, this morning I slept in. So, I think I will try 8 or 9 p.m. tonight to see if it makes a difference.
What dosage are you aiming for? I think it will probably continue to help you sleep. It did for most people I've known who have taken it (other than me). I was so wound up on it with my heart beating so fast that I had the hardest time getting to sleep on it. Have you talked to your doctor yet? Is he surprised that you're tolerating it so well?
>
> Take care,
>
Kara
Posted by TamaraJ on March 11, 2005, at 11:48:23
In reply to Re: Kara, my turn. How you are doing? » TamaraJ, posted by KaraS on March 10, 2005, at 19:00:29
> Hi,
> > >
> There are a lot of things that can interfere witht the tapping according to the authors (repressed issues, not enough water in your system, reversed polarities blah, blah, blah). Also, I could be missing the right spots in some cases. It's too much to get a handle on. Maybe a professional could help me for at least a session or two but I don't have the money for that now. Also, I was using the term accupressure to describe the tapping since the book I have also uses that term in its title.
> I'd rather get a CES device - run some electricity to my brain and be done with it!
>
-- Too many variables can make it difficult for a novice to "get it right" I guess. A professional may be able to help, but I would imagine that if repressed issues were sabotaging the technique then even someone experienced in tapping may not be able to help. The CES device sounds promising though. And, if it works, it would be a one-time investment which could be used if there was a relapse or simply for maintenance.
>
> Cycling is definitely good exercise. I had a stationary bike which I sold to my neighbor. I'm kind of sorry that I did. In your case an outside bike sounds like it would be very useful as well as providing aerobic activity.
>
-- I had a exercise bike years ago as well. But, after a while, it became more of a valet (a place to hang clothes, etc.), so I gave it to a friend of mine. I have a mini-stepper and a rebounder that I use from time to time for indoor exercise. I find it hard to stay motivated when I exercise at home. Yet, when I had a gym membership, even when I didn't feel like exercising, once I got to the gym and started a class, I would be motivated. That's why I am thinking of joining a gym again. Seems to motivate me more to exercise. Having a bike will be good as well though. I may even be able to cycle to work once in a while.
>
> >
> I don't know yet if I'll be able to tolerate the Anafranil. I'm only tolerating 25 mg. of doxepin so I'm not at a therapeutic dose now. Yesterday and today it feels like my heart is skipping beats - a kind of a fluttering feeling once in a while. I've had this feeling before when I oversleep a lot but I've only been getting about 8 hours of sleep a night. Still it feels like too much sleep. I hope that's all it is. I know that TCAs can have cardio effects but it's hard to imagine that only 25 mg. could be a problem.
>
-- That sounds scary about your heart skipping beats :-( Geez I hope you are right and all it is is too much sleep. Has it subsided now or did you experience more missed beats again today? You know, you may actually be able to combine the Anafranil with another AD so you can keep both at a low dose. The pdoc I see had me continue Celexa (at 20mg) while I was on Anafranil. Didn't make a lot of sense to me, but he must have had his reasons. I just hope you can find something you can tolerate and that gives you some therapeutic benefit. I am just glad for you that the Doxepin continues to provide some anxiety relief. I sometimes wonder if doctors realize just how debilitating anxiety can be. I have always found that my depressions have come about after prolonged periods of extreme and severe anxiety. Perhaps if I had treated the anxiety right off the bat and nipped it in the bud I would not have experienced as severe a depression. Who knows.
>
> I've been wondering also how Linkage was doing on the clomipramine. I'm not sure if it's a good sign or a bad one that we haven't heard anything from him in a few days. I'm crossing my fingers that this helps him a lot.
>
-- I hope it works for him too. I hope it's a good sign that we haven't heard from him. My fingers are crossed too.
>
> Interesting that you've been able to detect so much effect from chromium supplementation. I'm still taking it but am still not sure it's helping. I think I should probably take it for a while and then stop to see if I notice a difference.
>
-- Maybe I was imagining it. I just found that after I started taking the chromium at night I wasn't waking up feeling as anxious, woozy, nauseas and hungry (like I hadn't eaten in a few days). If you have just started, you might not yet be noticing any benefit. But, I agree, after a while of supplementing, take a break to see if you notice a difference. There is no point in spending money on a supplement if it is not really doing much.
>
>
> I think your plan is very sound. Hopefully your pdoc will agree. It sounds like you're back to thinking that you'll go back to work on time. That's great. I bet that the nort. had something to do with that. Hopefully you'll also be able to keep yourself from working too long hours so you don't burn out.
>
-- I hope he agrees. I think the nort is helping. I am thinking more positively and making plans and stuff. I think that is a good sign. So, my fingers are crossed that this will continue. My biggest worry about returning to work is my tendency to get wrapped up in my work and take on too much and work long hours as well as my inability to say "no". That is an area where I think I could benefit from CBT. I think I may still consider seeing a therapist. I don't want to go through what I have just gone through again. Granted, I was also suffering from iron deficiency, so that didn't help. But, I need to learn to set limits and impose boundaries.
> >
> Hopefully, that'll be the case. I'm more than a little bit afraid of adding a beta blocker to the mix anyway. I will temporarily not be using my pdoc since I'll be starting at a free clinic soon. I can't keep bothering my pdoc to help me over the phone when I'm not even paying him for anything. Once I have a job and health insurance, then I'll be able to go back to him.
>
-- I think I would be afraid too to add a beta blocker. But, don't some people use them for anxiety already (Proponodal ? spelling)? I am sure your pdoc wouldn't mind though if you just called to get his opinion or advice on medication (but get the script from the free clinic). He seems really nice.
>
> What nerve your friend's mother had! She could dictate what her children have to eat and drink, but what right did she have to tell you what to do? I'm the same way. Always marched to my own beat and quite headstrong but still on the shy side.
>
-- I know. And, the reason why I didn't drink milk when I was younger was because I was somewhat lactose intolerant (not to be gross, but when I drank milk I would get all mucousy in the back of my throat. I was a horrid feeling). I think a lot of shy people are actually quite headstrong. A bit of a contridiction, but maybe the shyness makes some more independent and able to pursue their interests in spite of what others think. Who knows. I found from a young age, I did what I wanted when I wanted (within reason of course). I remember when I was 14 I wanted to get a part-time job. My parents both said no. Anyway, I went with a friend of mine to apply for jobs and when of the places we applied (McDonalds he he) hired us on the spot. I went home and told my parents I now had a job. There wasn't much they could do at that point. So, I kept my little job. Granted, I had to find my own way to work and home, but that didn't stop me.
>
> Too much coffee is definitely counterproductive but I think that a couple of cups a day is very therapeutic. I'm not a connoisseur of it. My favorite is the flavored stuff esp. hazelnut. Here is southern California that is considered very tacky, to say the least, but I don't care.
>
-- Who cares is right! I am no connoisseur either. I just enjoy a nice cup of coffee. But, it hasn't become my quest in life to find the ultimate coffee bean or brew :-) I used to like a nice espresso once in a while, but other than that, it's whatever is handy. I like the flavored coffees as well.
>
> What dosage are you aiming for? I think it will probably continue to help you sleep. It did for most people I've known who have taken it (other than me). I was so wound up on it with my heart beating so fast that I had the hardest time getting to sleep on it. Have you talked to your doctor yet? Is he surprised that you're tolerating it so well?
>
-- I think I will stay at 50mg for a week and see how I feel. Then, if I feel I need a little more of a boost, I will try 75mg (or I may ask the pdoc for another script for 10mg caps so I can try 60mg). That's too bad that you had just a bad reaction to it. I wonder if you had started at a really low dose and tried taking it during the day if that would have made a difference. I am thinking that nort may be one of those ADs that some may be able to get by with a low dose. I see the pdoc next week, so it will be interesting to see his reaction.
> >
Take care of yourself, and I will talk to you soon,
> >
Tamara
>
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