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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:11:40
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by annierose on June 18, 2006, at 19:59:51
Dear Dinah,
This is so painful, all you've shared, all that has happened. He's taking things personally, getting defensive, as if he weren't your T, he is hurting you over and over.. :-(
After 10 years, I so agree with GG and all the others..he knows you well enough to know how much this is hurting you and how hard you were trying to repair this relationship and how much stability and safety mean to you...
I think I would write him a letter, I would just be totally honest and tell him how much I'm hurting and all I am feeling. A letter would give him time to think and feel, instead of acting defensively.
No matter what you decide..I think that a letter at least would give you the relief of knowing you said everything and there weren't unsaid things between youThis shouldn't be happening :-(
I am so sorry
Frida
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
In reply to Re: (((((Dinah))))), posted by annierose on June 18, 2006, at 19:59:51
of so many things.
One of which is that I've been unfair to him. Today really wasn't all that bad. It felt sort of adversarial, but I came in full of anger, however coldly expressed. Some of it might have reflected back to me.
I was playing with my iPod today and found the recordings I've made of his voicemails over the years. And the relaxation tape.
I was filled with the desire to call and take everything back. To hope he can forgive me like he's forgiven me so many times before.
He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.
I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
Maybe it's my fault I hurt. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic. In fact I know they are. I'm too needy.
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:32:22
In reply to Re: As could be expected., posted by happyflower on June 18, 2006, at 17:43:54
> Dinah, what other stuff did you say to him that you think Dr. Bob wouldn't approve of?
I threatened to kill myself if he terminated me. I guess that was unfair, although I saw it at the time as answering a threat with a threat. And one that I did mean. I respond very strongly to threats to my therapy.
It would have been horribly difficult to leave him and move on with my life, had he told me about this and I insisted on moving. But to be terminated... I don't know if I could live with being terminated. I hate that word, yet it's the only one that seems equal to the devastation involved.
It's so weird to feel so strongly about someone.
Posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:36:18
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Dear Dinah
I hear your fear..but you are not too needy. He's your therapist. He promised to fight for this, to be there for you. He's your T and has a commitment to you...
and he shouldn't be hurting you.. :-(
My T has expressed frustration at me, has sometimes been defensive, but the times it happened we talked about it deeply and i expressed how hurt I was and she validated my feelings and explained why she had reacted a certain way and then did her best to avoid hurting my feelings. I did go through hard phases with her and it was worth it.
10 years is a long time, but he needs to know that he's been hurting you. Have you told him how much he's been hurting you and how much his actions have been affecting you? I think he is acting so defensively and not seeing the real issue here..and his commitment to you..and the pain he's causing you.
and just how hard you've been trying to make this work.I understand about your fears of not being fair. Sometimes it is hard to explain something only with written words,but he's your T...and he shouldn't be hurting you...
and he should be able to stop being so defensive and try to help you with this hurt. Even if he thinks he didn't hurt you. You are feeling hurt and that is what matters. In T, your feelings are the ones that matter. He should be focusing on them...I would like to shout at him: Can't you see how deeply Dinah is hurting????
You are not too needy...this truly shouldn't be this way..
sending you support,
Frida
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
In reply to Re: I'm afraid, posted by Frida on June 19, 2006, at 1:36:18
I've been very open with how he's made me feel. I'm not sure how much he took it in, or how much weight he gives it. But I've pretty much told him everything that entered my mind. I even told him the names I called him, and about breaking the front door.
Today I was a bit measured and kept my cool, the better to convey my points. But I also at least told him about my feelings.
I just don't know how unreasonable I'm being.
I think fate handed me a lesson. I used to get rather impatient with the women who appeared to put up with just about anything with the comment "but I loooove him". And now I'm one of them.
Except I've started to wonder if I'm correct in thinking I'm putting up with a lot.
Posted by Tamar on June 19, 2006, at 5:51:27
In reply to Re: I'm afraid » Frida, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
> I think fate handed me a lesson. I used to get rather impatient with the women who appeared to put up with just about anything with the comment "but I loooove him". And now I'm one of them.
>
> Except I've started to wonder if I'm correct in thinking I'm putting up with a lot.That's what those women think too. They don't think they're putting up with a lot. It can't really be as bad as they think. It can't really be as bad as everyone else says. Eventually they lose the self esteem to walk away.
It is possible for those relationships to change. But the man has to be prepared to take a long hard look at his behaviour. And then he has to make a concerted effort to do things differently. And he can't usually do it on his own: he needs therapy.
I think your therapist needs therapy.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by AuntieMel on June 19, 2006, at 9:21:23
In reply to Re: I'm afraid » Frida, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:57:37
My ex-hubby is a Vietnam vet. Being over there changed him. He's still a nice guy, and we get along as friends, but he just isn't the same person he was before he went.Try as hard as we both wanted to, we just couldn't make it work. That doesn't mean I'm less a person, or he is either. It just means we can't do "us" anymore. Our expectations had changed, what we wanted and needed from each other, and what we could give to each other had changed. And it couldn't change back.
Maybe Katrina is your Vietnam.
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 9:47:47
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Dinah,
Don't you dare try to take it back! You said what you needed to say. For 24 hours now I've been trying to figure out what to write to you. I'm fresh out of wisdom!
Hang in there. We are HERE for you. You can and will get over him. I still think you need a spa trip--right about the time of your next Sunday appointment!
HUGS,
MidnightBlue
Posted by fallsfall on June 19, 2006, at 14:02:27
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
> of so many things.
>
> One of which is that I've been unfair to him. Today really wasn't all that bad. It felt sort of adversarial, but I came in full of anger, however coldly expressed. Some of it might have reflected back to me.
>*** Did you see him again today?
> I was playing with my iPod today and found the recordings I've made of his voicemails over the years. And the relaxation tape.
>
> I was filled with the desire to call and take everything back. To hope he can forgive me like he's forgiven me so many times before.
>
> He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.*** Yes, he HAD some fine and useful qualities, and they were helpful to you in the past. But he is not helping you NOW. And you have given him plenty of time to figure out how to help you NOW. You can take the good things you learned. Leaving him now doesn't take away any of the past. But leaving him now would keep him from hurting you in the future. He has lost his fine and useful qualities in the present.
>
> I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
>
*** Yes, and this is your fear. But fears are not alway rational or justified. You proved during Katrina that you can survive without him. Can you take that experience and let it lessen your fear?> Maybe it's my fault I hurt. Maybe my expectations are unrealistic. In fact I know they are. I'm too needy.
*** No, you aren't too needy. Anymore than Daisy is too needy. Your expectations might be unrealistic, though - I think you should be looking for MORE than you have been getting.
It is expected that you will go back and forth on this. But you've been going back and forth for months. I think it is time to go forward.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2006, at 14:57:22
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Me too. So I can totally empathize. But you know what? Sometimes fear can be used as a powerful motivator. As can anger. Reflected or not, it is what you are feeling. And it is hugely justifiable.
Change is hard. Look at me...I wake up every day and wonder what the hell I think I'm doing. I look at my husband's fine and useful qualities. And this little voice says, "it wasn't so bad." But a louder voice says, "I'm tired of hurting."
Listen the the louder voice, Dinah. You can love someone and still leave them. You can appreciate them at their best and be sadly aware that you just can't take their worst. It is OK to save yourself, so I'm being told. You aren't too needy.
And I don't think it is unrealistic to expect that your therapist provide you with honest support and information. He is afraid of hurting you, you are afraid of being hurt...and yet it keeps happening. So I'm going to be presumptuous and say, "it is time to end the hurt." I'm guessing that you can drift into a friendship type, keep in touch relationship, just by where you've already drifted.
And I'm very aware that this is tremendously painful. I wish I could help more with that. But at some point you have to save yourself. And that might mean acute pain now (like chemotherapy) that prevents a long, drawn out death (like cancer). You deserve a life not filled with this drama. You deserve happiness.
Love and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by orchid on June 19, 2006, at 19:43:49
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
>
> He really does have many fine and useful qualities. And it's only been the last eight months that he's been hurting me. D*mn Katrina.
>
> I think I'm more scared of getting over him than I am of being hurt by him.
>I think you have been hurt over and over by this man, and you are left with feeling so much anger and hurt and bitterness about the time and money many many days. And I think I saw signs of it even before Katrina, when you felt many times like he is not really helping you all that much. But then, I remember you said since he was very laid back, taht suits you too, since you don't want someone who would push you around too much.
I think you have been hurt too much, and even if not for the hurt, I think he must have run out of his insights to you by now, that it will do you good to find a new T.
But I think you need to do it really really slowly. Take a time frame of year or so, or maybe even little more than a year, and then start to terminate very very slowly.
I think it is better to not continue for a long time with your current T - atleast not for years together. But I think if you take a year or perhaps even more and plan out your termination, and do it very gradually, it might be good.
And actually I found the part where you said you are more scared of getting over him very interesting. I feel perhaps your desire to protect him comes from some of your feelings about your dad who you always took care of. Maybe you are feeling that if you get over him, it will be like letting him down.
Posted by shrinking violet on June 19, 2006, at 22:10:42
In reply to I'm afraid, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 1:25:56
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
In reply to ((((((((((Dinah))))))))))) I'm sorry this happened (nm) » Dinah, posted by shrinking violet on June 19, 2006, at 22:10:42
The anxiety was just too much. I called him this morning and left a message of apology for my behavior and begging him to forgive me. I did tell him that I meant a lot of what I said, but I apologized for the meaner stuff.
I rescheduled my engagement for this Sunday and asked for my regular time slot.
I feel like I've let everyone down. :(
I'm so weak.
I think... I think he's the only one who really knows part of me. The part that others rarely see. The part that surprises the people who know me. He may be the only human in the world who really knows, or has ever known, that aspect of myself and fully accepts it. The needy unreasonable demanding childish part of me. My husband has borne it occasionally, certainly, but he doesn't care for that part of me. And who can blame him. I think it surprises and scares Babblers. I try to keep it from my son, but he sees it from time to time and it scares him.
But my therapist not only accepts that part of me, but he even finds it valuable and worthwhile. He'll admit that it annoys him at times, but swears that that's because of what's going on in his life, not because I'm unacceptable.
I think that part of me is terrified of being alone, without anyone, if I lose my therapist. And on a very visceral level, is afraid of obliteration and annhilation without someone who recognizes it and accepts it.
So I think the fear is fear of death. If not on a whole systems or bodily level, then at least death of that part of me. Oddly enough, that part of me doesn't fear actual death, just symbolic annhilation.
I honestly think the only way to break free from him is to make contact an impossibility by moving. And I can't do that.
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 23:37:52
In reply to I'm embarassed to post, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
OH DINAH!
I really don't know what to say.........you are worth SO MUCH MORE than that! You are of value and worth to so many people....
I think you are shortchanging your husband, son, and many of us who would love you no matter what.
Hugs,
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:53:50
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on June 19, 2006, at 23:37:52
I don't mean it as a complaint or criticism about the other people in my life. They're all wonderful.
I'm not too proud of that side of myself and I tend to cover it reasonably well most of the time. Obviously not all the time, as this thread will attest.
But it helps me to be able and *be* that part of me twice a week, and express myself to my therapist, who really is more than ordinarily good at it.
The two other therapists I recently visited were not at all accepting of that part of me and thought I should work to eradicate it or at least control it. Spoke of it as an unruly part of me that should have limits applied. It didn't really work out too well.
Posted by Daisym on June 20, 2006, at 0:22:26
In reply to I'm embarassed to post, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
I get it. I want to hug you...I so get it.
I just wish there was a way to have what you need that doesn't hurt so much. It shouldn't be this way. It just shouldn't.
I'm feeling young and small tonight so I want the world to be fair and nice and kind. I know it isn't and so much of it is out of our control, but is it so much to ask that our therapist control their little corner of the world for us? I think not!
You'll work through this, I'm sure. And never be embarrassed to post. We love you, all of you. It is a woman's perogative to change her mind, right?
Posted by Tamar on June 20, 2006, at 2:46:37
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » MidnightBlue, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:53:50
> I feel like I've let everyone down. :(
You haven’t let anyone down at all. You did what you needed to do in order to feel safe and a bit more comfortable.
> I'm so weak.
Dinah, it’s not weak at all. The alternative you proposed was medicating yourself up to the eyeballs. And that might have continued for two months.
> I think... I think he's the only one who really knows part of me. The part that others rarely see. The part that surprises the people who know me. He may be the only human in the world who really knows, or has ever known, that aspect of myself and fully accepts it. The needy unreasonable demanding childish part of me. My husband has borne it occasionally, certainly, but he doesn't care for that part of me. And who can blame him. I think it surprises and scares Babblers. I try to keep it from my son, but he sees it from time to time and it scares him.
If Babblers are surprised, it’s probably because you keep it hidden most of the time. What worries me more is that you seem to think we can’t accept it. And yet, time and again, I’ve seen you deal sensitively and gracefully with others who have been behaving in a way that might appear unreasonable and demanding and childish. You accept it so readily in others, I wonder why it seems so hard for you to think others could accept it in you.
> But my therapist not only accepts that part of me, but he even finds it valuable and worthwhile. He'll admit that it annoys him at times, but swears that that's because of what's going on in his life, not because I'm unacceptable.
That’s very important. It’s important not to stifle that part of yourself.
> I think that part of me is terrified of being alone, without anyone, if I lose my therapist. And on a very visceral level, is afraid of obliteration and annhilation without someone who recognizes it and accepts it.
>
> So I think the fear is fear of death. If not on a whole systems or bodily level, then at least death of that part of me. Oddly enough, that part of me doesn't fear actual death, just symbolic annhilation.
>
> I honestly think the only way to break free from him is to make contact an impossibility by moving. And I can't do that.Or… to find ways of accepting that part of yourself and learning that people will still love you simply because that part of you is part of *you*, and you are a loveable person.
> But it helps me to be able and *be* that part of me twice a week, and express myself to my therapist, who really is more than ordinarily good at it.
That’s very understandable. I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to hold a part of them inside all the time.
> The two other therapists I recently visited were not at all accepting of that part of me and thought I should work to eradicate it or at least control it. Spoke of it as an unruly part of me that should have limits applied. It didn't really work out too well.
Hmmm… I actually rather like unruly parts of people. Maybe I’m odd, but on the other hand I think a lot of us can identify with other people’s foibles. I don’t see why it needs limits applied unless it would get you into trouble… I wouldn’t want you to start punching people or something.
And the point is that you *do* control it. Most of the time. The problem doesn’t seem to be controlling it all. It sounds to me as if the biggest problem is that you feel there’s only one place where you can be truly yourself in all your parts. And I guess it’s self-perpetuating if you try to keep it hidden from other people.
You’re awfully hard on yourself. (((((Dinah))))) I’ve never seen you be so hard on anyone else. Give yourself a break, eh?
Love,
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 7:52:32
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by Daisym on June 20, 2006, at 0:22:26
Well, I'm not sure I changed my mind. If it were possible to do so I'd definitely move, because I do hate to get hurt over and over. And I feel like it's my fault because I know who he is, and yet I stay involved.
It's just that this primitive fear overwhelms all else.
I'm not actually a woman you know. :)
Posted by fallsfall on June 20, 2006, at 7:54:56
In reply to I'm embarassed to post, posted by Dinah on June 19, 2006, at 23:13:16
Life is a process. Progress is a process. Can you see it as a little more grey? Maybe you can use this time to let some of the rest of us get to know emotional you a little better. There are more choices than you see.
Perhaps there is a way to accept AND limit at the same time. Sort of like feelings just ARE, but you can control your actions. It seems like you try to deny the feelings in order to control the actions. They really are separate. But I think that it may take some time and practice to be able to "do" that.
You haven't let us down. You are living your life. You have listened to us and considered what we are saying, and decided that you aren't quite ready to changes therapists yet. That is a valid choice. And all this time you are learning.
We do love you, Dinah.
Falls.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 8:04:43
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 20, 2006, at 2:46:37
It's hard to give myself a break over this.
It's been an integral part of my life experience that when I exhibit those qualities, even those I'm closest to recoil. My parents couldn't tolerate that part of me, my husband can't. The other therapists pretty much wanted to eradicate it, or treat it like a naughty child. It's hard for me to believe anyone can tolerate or accept it - my therapist included. I guess I always figure he's just trained to accept it. But of course it's more than that. He's an inordinately accepting man.
I like it when it's directed towards me, but I get annoyed when he's so accepting towards himself. lol. Isn't that the case with intense strengths and intense weaknesses? They're nearly always flip sides of each other.
I guess... I suppose that's the reason for the forever therapy as well. I don't go to therapy to learn something and go out into life. I go to therapy for that part of me to have a place to *be*. And finding another place for it to be just isn't as easy as it sounds.
It's not that I don't think I should leave. I really think I should. I think that somewhere in the past nine months, something has eroded and can't be restored.
But finding another therapist who has this essential quality is not soemthing I have much hope of doing. I think it might be easier if my therapist helped me find someone new, but clearly that can't happen in this scenario. And even that can't be easy. They don't believe me when I tell them what I need in therapy. I'm not sure they'd believe him either.
Of course there are those who would say it's not a need, but a want.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 8:12:44
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by Daisym on June 20, 2006, at 0:22:26
I forgot to say.
Thank you for understanding. :)
It would be so much easier in life if we could just be who we want to be. The me I've created for myself is just fine. Why do I need the me I really am deep down?
My therapist tells me that I am really am both. And that I really need both. Hard to believe that sometimes.
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 8:14:26
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 20, 2006, at 7:54:56
Thanks Falls.
It's such a hard thing for me to understand myself. Much less explain. I wish I could.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 9:49:24
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on June 20, 2006, at 7:54:56
Ditto what falls said.
You are loved, Dinah, and quite worthy of it.
gg
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 10:36:53
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post Â, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 9:49:24
I wouldn't be if I were me. (pointing to my gut)
See, that's the whole point.
Me (pointing to my gut) isn't really very loveable. It's more like all the qualities people dislike in a person. Why would people care about a person like that?
Posted by antigua on June 20, 2006, at 10:39:09
In reply to Re: I'm embarassed to post Â, posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 9:49:24
Dinah,
I support you 100%. You said something in an earlier post that things have eroded over the last nine months w/your T. Can you think of it as change, instead of eroding? It's always a developing relationship and when you've been in therapy as long as you have (me too!), the relationship is bound to ebb and flow. I know this is more drastic, but... for example, I don't even remember how many years ago it was, but my T's husband died and it took us a LONG time to get back to a comfortable spot because of all the uncertainty and changes it generated. Many would have suggested that I change Ts at the time because things weren't always right, but I wouldn't, or couldn't, and I ended up learning a lot from the experience. It was painful, yet, but I'm still glad I stuck around.
Really what I'm saying is that you know what is best for you, and changing your mind--even a few times--is o.k. It's part of the process.
Take care, and hug that great son of yours,
antigua
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