![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:26:19
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 1:09:16
Rigby,
It sounds like your poor (and I say that consciously) therapist needs something from you. In a normal human relationship that's probably not unhealthy. Is it unhealthy in a therapeutic relationship? Can anybody answer this?
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
Wow. This is messed up. Are you still seeing him? Sorry--I haven't followed your story if it's on here!
I felt sexual chemistry with my therapist for a while but when I stopped feeling that way I stopped interpreting things that way or looking for it. So it could be a mix of what you feel/want and partly what he's feeling. Things look different though when you're not attracted. Are you still attracted to him?
> Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:39:32
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
but I have to ask, are you male or female?
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:39:32
I'm female. And I've been gay most of my adult life and in fact am in a long-term relationship with another woman. However, and I think due to therapy opening me up, I've become extremely attracted to a guy. My therapist was lesbian for a while, like for all of her 20s, somehow "switched" and ended up marrying a guy.
I am sleeping with this guy and am open with my partner about it. We're trying to work through this.
For me this is a hugely unexpected and complicated turn of events. This is why now, more than ever, I need her to not screw up with me.
> but I have to ask, are you male or female?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:50:24
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 10:58:49
I felt like he'd violated my trust when I saw him looking that way; however I could never tell him that, and part of me wanted to respond to what I was interpreting, and it did. But when I told him that and he actually seemed happy about it, I totally shut down. I became paranoid, schizo, anxious. Afraid. Distrustful. But I couldn't stop seeing him, I needed his unconditional positive regard. So I think subconsciously, I decided I could make him (a) see me as a person, not an object (at this point I'd decided he does this to every female who walks into his office), and (b) if he ended up disliking me in the process, so be it.
I worked really hard at making myself unlikable. I phoned his f***ing answering machine sometimes 30 times a day, every time I thought I had an insight. I worked really hard on getting insights, too, so I wouldn't need him anymore.
I mean, here was this beautiful person who saw me as a *thing*! I'm a person too, just like you, look into my *eyes*!
It was so so hard. I remember once when I was making a call to his machine, someone said "Leave that poor man alone" and my reply was "He deserves it!". I really felt that way. I really wanted him to learn to care about *me* not my physical appearance. Although I understand that my physical appearance showed signs of my mental life too. Ah. This gets so complicated. But I know I've got it figured properly, at least so far as my own motivations were concerned.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:53:11
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
Life sounds really exciting for you right now. I thought you were female, but your writing aura was male. I was really attracted to that aura. I find the females on here are for the most part really spiritually lovely and intelligent people who don't seem to be afraid to meet the truth either in themselves or others. I really like that.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:55:43
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 11:44:15
Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:07:32
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Rigby, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:50:24
So do you still see him then? It sounds like a mix of how he really acted perhaps and also your past experience with men? In either case, it sounds like you saw to it that you would benefit from this experience and did it--good for you!!!
> I felt like he'd violated my trust when I saw him looking that way; however I could never tell him that, and part of me wanted to respond to what I was interpreting, and it did. But when I told him that and he actually seemed happy about it, I totally shut down. I became paranoid, schizo, anxious. Afraid. Distrustful. But I couldn't stop seeing him, I needed his unconditional positive regard. So I think subconsciously, I decided I could make him (a) see me as a person, not an object (at this point I'd decided he does this to every female who walks into his office), and (b) if he ended up disliking me in the process, so be it.
> I worked really hard at making myself unlikable. I phoned his f***ing answering machine sometimes 30 times a day, every time I thought I had an insight. I worked really hard on getting insights, too, so I wouldn't need him anymore.
> I mean, here was this beautiful person who saw me as a *thing*! I'm a person too, just like you, look into my *eyes*!
> It was so so hard. I remember once when I was making a call to his machine, someone said "Leave that poor man alone" and my reply was "He deserves it!". I really felt that way. I really wanted him to learn to care about *me* not my physical appearance. Although I understand that my physical appearance showed signs of my mental life too. Ah. This gets so complicated. But I know I've got it figured properly, at least so far as my own motivations were concerned.
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:10:28
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 11:55:43
When you say more focused, what does that mean to you? Does it seem weird that my life would parallel her's like this?
> Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:13:46
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:10:28
No, weird isn't a word I want to use. Honestly, I wonder whether your therapist identifies very strongly with you and is having a problem with that.
Posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:26:16
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:13:46
Yeah, that's a great point. It would all make a ton of sense then--the messed up boundaries, the reactions she has, my feeling that there has always been some sort of connection between us but not knowing what the heck it's about. Not too long ago she was going away for a couple of weeks and she really went over with me in terms of time because she was so worried about this guy and him using me, etc. She even said she didn't know what was going on with her but she was feeling extremely protective of me. She seemed pretty frazzled around her reaction. She has also said that she and I are alike in alot of ways but when I asked recently if this meant in terms of our sexuality she said that it was our defense mechanisms that are similar. She said something about me reminding her of herself when she was gay too. Maybe this latest foray into my interest in a guy poses yet another difficulty for her in terms of how much she identifies with me. I would imagine this hasn't been easy for her.
> No, weird isn't a word I want to use. Honestly, I wonder whether your therapist identifies very strongly with you and is having a problem with that.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:42:49
In reply to Re: Dumb question » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:26:16
I'll bet it hasn't been easy for her.. but honestly, I don't think being a therapist should be easy.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 12:56:05
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:07:32
I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, I don't think. Can I tell you a story? I was calling CW's machine and telling him I thought my dependence on him was really sick. And I believed that, because I believed he didn't like me. Who the heck wants to need the positive regard of someone who's faking it? And I told him through the machine not to allow me to make any more appointments with him. This was not a good relationship for me, I said. It was destructive.
Who knows, maybe he never even listened to that message. Maybe he felt tweaked. And I was tweaking him, but probably not in the way that he might've thought.
God I need Psycho-Babble right now. Thank you Dr. Bob. The psychological profession owes you a debt.
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
> Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
Hi Susan47,
I hope you and Rigby don't mind me jumping in here, but I'm having this experience and I'm at a loss as to what to do. How did you deal with it? Did you say something to him? I'm really attached to him - leaving seems really painful. Any words on this would be greatly appreciated!BigFish
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:51:24
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
Unfortunately, I dealt with it according to my feelings and my past history. And I suppose that's what each of us will do. I became personally very angry, turned on, and frightened. And reacted accordingly. And my therapist, trying to be a blank slate after all, was unhelpful.
What you do probably will be affected by your own past and your therapist's ability to be introspective and honest with you. I don't know, I'm guessing and I know nothing. Tell us more though.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:03:13
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
If you feel you can't talk to your therapist about a sexual way he or she looks at you then I believe you don't trust him or her. The question is, is it because there was a sexual look, or is it because you interpreted it that way, and do you want to find out? Will your therapist be honest with you or will your therapist lie about it? I believe that therapists lie all the time.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:04:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, Big Fish, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:03:13
...based on no real knowledge. I'm sure there are honest therapists out there; at least, they honestly want good results.
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » BigFish, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:51:24
> Unfortunately, I dealt with it according to my feelings and my past history. And I suppose that's what each of us will do. I became personally very angry, turned on, and frightened. And reacted accordingly. And my therapist, trying to be a blank slate after all, was unhelpful.
> What you do probably will be affected by your own past and your therapist's ability to be introspective and honest with you. I don't know, I'm guessing and I know nothing. Tell us more though.I've been going to him for 3 and a half years. Starting in Jan I went 2 times a week rather than just a 1x a month med check b/c I was feeling really suicidal. He's asked me, in a round about way, if I had a crush on him. I admitted it but in the months since I haven't brought it up - I'm too embarassed. He also has pressed in on that numerous times in a veiled way. I thought it was maybe for 'theraputic' reasons, but I've talked to a few people who've had therapy and they said they thought that this was strange- why is he pursuing this unless it means something to him personally. Then there are the 'looks.' Like what you describe. I feel really stuck.
BigFish
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
In reply to I'm sorry it's just an opinion, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:04:16
> ...based on no real knowledge. I'm sure there are honest therapists out there; at least, they honestly want good results.
I appreciate your opinion. I fear getting gaslighted. He did that to me once about an interaction that we had on the phone. Also, I'm quick to think that, when a man seems attracted to me, I must be imagining it. Since this has gone on for so long, I'm now wondering if that's not the case.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:26:21
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
The reason I couldn't bring up the looks with my therapist is because I felt like a homely child and an outcast all my childhood and adolescence. So as an adult woman, I've always tried to be as physically perfect as I had the energy for. So if I asked my therapist if his look was about me or not, and he said *No* for whatever reason, it would feel like a rejection.
Especially in light of the fact that I thought he was the cat's meow right from the get-go.
If I *knew* or *thought* truly that I were attractive I don't think I would've had a problem asking him. If I knew or thought that he found me attractive, I would've been able to ask him. Can you ask your therapist if he finds you attractive? Bring it right out into the open. What do you think will happen?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:36:11
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
I have an acquaintance who used to be a therapist, and he told me that if he felt a patient was transferring to him, he got another therapist into the action right away. He wasn't comfortable with that. And he talked to me about therapists who "need" their clients. Is it possible your therapist is one of these? Is he trying to encourage something legitimate for therapy, or something for himself? That's such a hard question for us little therapy-goers to answer isn't it? You've invested three and a half years; but you know you can take yourself away at any time, because the progress you've made you can take with you?
But it's so so hard to terminate with a therapist. I was wrenched away from mine even though I had these issues, maybe because of them I don't really know, will probably never know. I went/am going through the most painful blow to my self-esteem. But I *am* going to be all right, I think. Better than I was before I ever met my ex-therapist, which I'm sure is a good thing. However, there was collateral damage.
You probably have to decide when to cut the cord, at this point. It doesn't sound like he's going to do it. I know mine wouldn't have if I hadn't tested his patience to the limit. I tried that man. I was such an angry patient. I just realized, we're not clients as long as we're needy. Ew. My therapist always insisted on calling us "patients". I hated that. I used to call myself a client, d*** him.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:37:17
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
Okay, so you're quick to think you're imagining it. Read my next post, what do you think? Do we have anything in common here?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:06
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
What do you mean by "gaslighted" and what happened on the phone?
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:20
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:26:21
> The reason I couldn't bring up the looks with my therapist is because I felt like a homely child and an outcast all my childhood and adolescence. So as an adult woman, I've always tried to be as physically perfect as I had the energy for. So if I asked my therapist if his look was about me or not, and he said *No* for whatever reason, it would feel like a rejection.
> Especially in light of the fact that I thought he was the cat's meow right from the get-go.
> If I *knew* or *thought* truly that I were attractive I don't think I would've had a problem asking him. If I knew or thought that he found me attractive, I would've been able to ask him. Can you ask your therapist if he finds you attractive? Bring it right out into the open. What do you think will happen?I can really relate to what you're saying! I have serious self doubts and I'm scared of his reaction. What if he laughs "You? What makes you think I might find you attractive?" There are moments when I feel he has no empathy, and what if this will be one of them. I'll be crushed.
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:52:06
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:06
> What do you mean by "gaslighted" and what happened on the phone?
>He changed his phone style. He had been very abrupt, always hanging up after he said what he needed to say with barely an audible 'thanks'. And then one phone call [to change our appt. time] after I said ok to the time change there was a long pause. He wasn't hanging up. Then he said 'thank you.' I said 'your welcome.' Another long pause. He said 'bye.' Then I said 'bye.' It made the hairs on the back of my neck stick up for some reason. Maybe his tone of voice? I asked him a few days later if I had been hanging up on him [ I really didn't think so, he'd always hung up on me]. He didn't answer my question at all, just said 'well i couldn't tell you. so what do you make of your asking me this' or something like that. It made me feel sort of nuts. He's done this every phone call since, too.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.