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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 226 to 250 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:25
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 20:27:31
Hi Kara, came across this info about the relationship between selenium and iodine in thyroid health. Thyroxine production is quite a dangerous process as thyroid peroxidase produces the powerful free radical hyrogen peroxide, to oxidise iodine before adding it to thyroxine. N acetyl cysteine has been mentioned on this thread recently and both selenium and NAC are needed for glutathione peroxidase synthesis, to protect the thyroid from being damaged by it's own hydrogen peroxide - defficiency in glutathione/selenium has been suggested as one of the factors leading to hashimoto's. To take iodine when there is a glutathione/selenium deficiency, could cause the thyroid to produce more hydrogen peroxide than it can manage, and exacerbate the thyroid problems - the article also says too much selenium causes problems because it acclerates the T4-T3 conversion, exhausting supplies of T4.
Hope it's interesting!
a selenium deficiency causes an iodine deficiency to get worse. This may be a protective adaptation by the body to limit the damage caused to the thyroid when selenium is deficient and iodine is adequate. Let's examine this part of the interaction.We've all heard that many doctors tell hypo patients, especially those with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, not to take iodine because it can aggravate their condition. The reason seems to be that selenium protects the thyroid gland from oxidative damage and this damage can increase significantly if iodine is supplemented. Taking iodine will increase thyroid hormone production and the production of H2O2 which damages the thyroidal cells. The lack of selenium prevents GPX from being able to protect the cells from this oxidative damage. While I doubt if most doctors realize why iodine should be restricted (it certainly seemed counter-intuitive to me at first), they have learned through experience that iodine can increase the thyroid damage in Hashimoto's. The information that selenium should be supplemented along with iodine is so new that most of them are unaware of it.
Here's what we have: Studies have shown that if iodine is low, selenium must also be kept low to prevent the hypothyroidism from becoming worse (from increased DI-I and T4 depletion, as explained above.) So if both minerals are low, then the person is hypo and gets a goiter, but the damage to the thyroid is kept to a minimum. More severe problems happen when either selenium or iodine is high and the other is low. If selenium is high and iodine low, then T4 to T3 to T2 conversion is accelerated without T4 being replenished, leading to a worsening of the hypoT. If iodine is high and selenium is low, then H2O2 is not degraded by GPX. Since H2O2 drives the thyroid hormone production, then the thyroid over-produces thyroid hormone (Grave's hyperthyroidism), the thyroid is damaged from the oxidation by the H2O2, and the end result is that the damaged thyroid ultimately decreases activity and hypothyroidism results (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). This could explain the observed progression of Grave's to Hashimoto's.
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:59
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 30, 2004, at 16:50:43
I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
Simus
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:40:11
In reply to Re: More jokes, licorice » JLx, posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 20:10:32
> > Thanks for the warning about licorice. I remember talking about it before now and thinking it might not be a good idea after all. Actually I think I'm not going to really try anything new just yet, just tweak the stuff I already have.
> Here's one thread on it.. I guess you know about setting "advanced" view to view up to 20 posts at once..bottom RHS
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroiduk/messages?msg=2569.1
>
> I still have to take some licorice as without it I end up having to take cortisol and raising the amounts of various minerals, fiddling.. I'm trying to wean off..but I get kinda stressed out and its such a relief to take some...and this is only lollies..not huge doses..actually I might get around to phoning up the company for the strength today.
>
> >
> > Some great jokes, thanks! I've seen a number of those lists but this was a new one.
> They were new to me too.
>
>
I am giving up on licorice. I took it in capsule form and became very ill (may or may not have been from the licorice). Then I bought a tincture and put it in my tea because I wanted to give it a fair try but I wanted to control the quantity. After sipping about 1/2 c. of tea, I started feeling a little worse - but not as bad as on the capsule. Anyway, I guess I will try something different.Simus
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:48:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:34:37
> > (((jumping up and down))) (((jumping up and down))) (((HUG))) or if you are a man,(((handshake - but enthusiatic one)))
> >
> > I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
> >
> > Simus
>
>
> Hey, I started Raybakes on this thread... don't I get any of the credit? :-)(((Jumping up and down for Kara))) ((Jumping up and down for Kara))) (((hug for you too)))
>
> Kidding of course. I'm glad you have your answer. I'm still confused about my neighbor's condition. She doesn't have adrenal fatigue symptoms at all. She's thinking possibly hyperpituitary is her real problem. Maybe she's right.
>
> KaraCould be pituitary... I wonder if that would be difficult to test for...
Simus
Posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 13:36:30
In reply to Kinesiology » raybakes, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:59
> I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
>
It's really helped me a lot but I did see four of five kinesiologists before I found a good one. I found it a useful feedback tool, and it's only as good as the person using it. It is very easy to influence the testing, so it's so important to keep your mind in neutral when working!Tried some of the ideas on this thread on my GF, who has menstual irregularities, to see if she had a thyroid problem. Using homeopathic testers I tested Ig G, Ig E, Ig M and Ig A, whilst touching her thyroid to see if she muscle tested for antibodies to her thyroid (Ig G tested positive) - then tried supplements to see which supplements would abolish the response - transdermal glutathione, B1, lipoic acid, riboflavin, niacinamide and selenium, together all abolished the muscle response to Ig G.
She's not that keen on taking supplements, so not sure she'll stick at it, but it was a useful experiment!
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 1, 2004, at 19:17:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 7:48:03
> > > I have tested normal for thyroid hormones with the exception of TSH, which was out of range high but not extremely so. I never fit the profile of someone with thyroid problems (I lean more towards symptoms of hyper though), but my symptoms line up exactly with those of adrenal fatigue. I never knew what to do with the high TSH info. My naturopathic dr said I was hypothyroid based on my TSH, and gave me bladderwrack (iodine source) which I never had the courage to take because I have never done well with iodine or thyroid hormones. Now I have hope that I am similar to cases 5&6 in the study whose TSH normalized when the adrenal function improved. That finally makes sense.
> Could be pituitary... I wonder if that would be difficult to test for...
>
> Simus
>Usually with pit. problems your TSH would be too low..as the pit. makes the TSH and the usual thing is when it is having problems it doesn't make much..so you get very low TSH together with low Ft3 and low FT4 ..as no TSH to stimulate thyroid to make hormones (from memory)
This is opposed to low TSH in hyperthyroid together with high FT3 where the feedback of high FT3/FT4 (or is it just T3/T4, no idea) to the pit. is suppressing the pit. output of TSH.Your TSH is not really very high (although I'd be dead before mine got there I suspect). A heck of a lot of endos won't treat for hypo with a TSH under 10..the one I first went to likes to wait until your TSH is over 100..maybe that cuts down his patient waiting list (kidding!. I guess it keeps most of the patients he treats to plain hypothyroid patients though.)
I thought maybe the pdrugs you were taking might possibily be interfering causing your pit to receive modified feedback and it therefore raises your TSH..causing you to maybe make slightly high levels of thyroid hormones..hence how you feel.
You really can't tell much without an FT3?
apsirin, alcohol, dopamine, tyrptophan , cortisol etc..probably everything probably alter the feedback/levels within the HPA-thyroid
"axis"..in other words..I don't think the HPA axis or the hypothalmus-pit-thyroid regulation are independant of everything else.Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
I get lost.
Posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 23:12:57
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Simus, posted by tealady on October 1, 2004, at 19:17:38
> I thought maybe the pdrugs you were taking might possibily be interfering causing your pit to receive modified feedback and it therefore raises your TSH..causing you to maybe make slightly high levels of thyroid hormones..hence how you feel.
Very well could be the ADs...
> You really can't tell much without an FT3?I do need to get more testing done. But it is so expensive that I want to make sure that I get the right tests done.
> apsirin, alcohol, dopamine, tyrptophan , cortisol etc..probably everything probably alter the feedback/levels within the HPA-thyroid
> "axis"..in other words..I don't think the HPA axis or the hypothalmus-pit-thyroid regulation are independant of everything else.Yeah, so many things it could be.
> Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
> Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.
Pardon my ignorance, but what is ferritin? I would guess it has something to do with iron because of similar root words, but I just don't know.> Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
> I get lost.Thanks for all your help (I really like the thyroid/adrenal message board & site you recommended previously).
Simus
Posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:47:10
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 7:20:25
> Hi Kara, came across this info about the relationship between selenium and iodine in thyroid health. Thyroxine production is quite a dangerous process as thyroid peroxidase produces the powerful free radical hyrogen peroxide, to oxidise iodine before adding it to thyroxine. N acetyl cysteine has been mentioned on this thread recently and both selenium and NAC are needed for glutathione peroxidase synthesis, to protect the thyroid from being damaged by it's own hydrogen peroxide - defficiency in glutathione/selenium has been suggested as one of the factors leading to hashimoto's. To take iodine when there is a glutathione/selenium deficiency, could cause the thyroid to produce more hydrogen peroxide than it can manage, and exacerbate the thyroid problems - the article also says too much selenium causes problems because it acclerates the T4-T3 conversion, exhausting supplies of T4.
>
> Hope it's interesting!
>
>
> a selenium deficiency causes an iodine deficiency to get worse. This may be a protective adaptation by the body to limit the damage caused to the thyroid when selenium is deficient and iodine is adequate. Let's examine this part of the interaction.
>
> We've all heard that many doctors tell hypo patients, especially those with Hashimoto's thyroiditis, not to take iodine because it can aggravate their condition. The reason seems to be that selenium protects the thyroid gland from oxidative damage and this damage can increase significantly if iodine is supplemented. Taking iodine will increase thyroid hormone production and the production of H2O2 which damages the thyroidal cells. The lack of selenium prevents GPX from being able to protect the cells from this oxidative damage. While I doubt if most doctors realize why iodine should be restricted (it certainly seemed counter-intuitive to me at first), they have learned through experience that iodine can increase the thyroid damage in Hashimoto's. The information that selenium should be supplemented along with iodine is so new that most of them are unaware of it.
>
> Here's what we have: Studies have shown that if iodine is low, selenium must also be kept low to prevent the hypothyroidism from becoming worse (from increased DI-I and T4 depletion, as explained above.) So if both minerals are low, then the person is hypo and gets a goiter, but the damage to the thyroid is kept to a minimum. More severe problems happen when either selenium or iodine is high and the other is low. If selenium is high and iodine low, then T4 to T3 to T2 conversion is accelerated without T4 being replenished, leading to a worsening of the hypoT. If iodine is high and selenium is low, then H2O2 is not degraded by GPX. Since H2O2 drives the thyroid hormone production, then the thyroid over-produces thyroid hormone (Grave's hyperthyroidism), the thyroid is damaged from the oxidation by the H2O2, and the end result is that the damaged thyroid ultimately decreases activity and hypothyroidism results (Hashimoto's thyroiditis). This could explain the observed progression of Grave's to Hashimoto's.
Thanks again Ray.
I am more and more convinced that this is all such a delicate balancing act of so many different things. It seems that if any one factor is a little bit off, hypothyroidism can result. After reading all of your posts lately, I'm wondering how anyone manages to NOT be hypothyroid!!!Also, I wonder why Hashimoto's strikes women so disproportionately. I know that autoimmune conditions in general strke women in greater percentage. I wonder though how this issue fits in with you recent posts on this topic.
-k
Posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:51:38
In reply to Re: Kinesiology » Simus, posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 13:36:30
> > I wonder about kinesiology... What is your opinion?
> >
>
> It's really helped me a lot but I did see four of five kinesiologists before I found a good one. I found it a useful feedback tool, and it's only as good as the person using it. It is very easy to influence the testing, so it's so important to keep your mind in neutral when working!
>
> Tried some of the ideas on this thread on my GF, who has menstual irregularities, to see if she had a thyroid problem. Using homeopathic testers I tested Ig G, Ig E, Ig M and Ig A, whilst touching her thyroid to see if she muscle tested for antibodies to her thyroid (Ig G tested positive) - then tried supplements to see which supplements would abolish the response - transdermal glutathione, B1, lipoic acid, riboflavin, niacinamide and selenium, together all abolished the muscle response to Ig G.
>
> She's not that keen on taking supplements, so not sure she'll stick at it, but it was a useful experiment!
>
> Ray
Lucky girlfriend to have her own personal researcher!BTW, where does one get transdermal glutathione?
-K
Posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 5:15:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:47:10
>Also, I wonder why Hashimoto's strikes women so disproportionately. I know that autoimmune conditions in general strke women in greater percentage. I wonder though how this issue fits in with you recent posts on this topic.
I think that women are far more sensitive to a negative enviroment than men - after all, the menstrual cycle is sensitive to moon cycles - you can't get more sensitive than that!I think modern life is a disaster for women, and may need to live more in tune with nature to maintain their sanity and health.
Some of the things that might affect the thyroid...
the pill, and other estrogen mimics such as pesticides and plastics.
Perfume, make-up, hair care products, carpets and cleaning products (don't want to sound too sexist!). My head fogs up if my gf wears perfume, can't bear to think what it's doing to her! Think it's time for women to reclaim 'beauty' - why would anyone want to douse themselves with carcinogens just to be 'beautiful!'
Sick buildings - too many positive ions and pollution.
Smoking, alcohol, stimulants and sugar.
Poor food choices and diets -glutathione is rich in fresh fruit and vegetables...
"Several foods contain naturally occurring glutathione, including avocado, watermelon, asparagus, acorn squash, strawberries, orange, tomato, cantaloupe, okra, peach, zucchini, and spinach."Stress, lack of spiritual connection with ourselves, not having a voice (i'm sure having a voice in our own destiny is good for the thyroid!)
amalgams, throat and ear infections, chronic tonsil and adenoid infections and inflammation due to poor surgery as a child.
So I think you're right, the poor little thyroid doesn't stand a chance!
The transdermal glutathione is made by kirkman, the labs who specialise in autisic supplements - as autistic kids suffer from autoimmune problems in the extreme, found it useful to pay attention to the latest research in that area - I do find it needs selenium and a few B vits to work though.
Talking to Iris about prolactin (think I confused her though!) found elevated prolactin to be involved in autoimmune disease, and a search shows that, it is high in hashimoto's - as dopamine inhibits prolactin, could be why tyrosine is good for pain relief?
'Elevated prolactin to cortisol ratio and polyclonal autoimmune activation in Hashimoto's thyroiditis.'
Posted by tealady on October 2, 2004, at 9:10:39
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 23:12:57
> > Still it's good to rule out other possibilites, like the antibodies too...or even low ferritin, selenium, zinc or other mineral levels which stop optimal thyroid hormone production and usage.
> > Although in your case , if you are feeling a tad hyper in symptoms you may find your ferritin is on the high side.
>
> Pardon my ignorance, but what is ferritin? I would guess it has something to do with iron because of similar root words, but I just don't know.
>
I knew someone asked for ferritin..Dr Bob had sit closed for posting when I tried replying B4Ferritin is an iron-protein complex formed from an intracellular acceptor called Apoferritin. Apoferritin is a large molecular weight 450,000 protein produced by the liver. Iron as Fe (HO)3 linked to apoferritin is then stored in the cytoplasm of the reticuloendothelial system, liver, spleen and bone marrow. Ferritin is the body's iron storage protein functioning primarily as a site for iron storage from which iron may be mobilized in response to such stimuli a dietary change, blood loss or pregnancy
Serum ferritin offers a convenient and accurate measure of total body iron stores, by means of diagnosing iron-deficiency and anemia due to such causes as inflammation and hepatic or renal disease. In addition, serum ferritin concentration may be useful in detecting iron overload
> > Unfortunately nothing in our body is isolated..much as the medical profession likes to categorize..but it's horribly confusing to try to put it together..so I see why they like to break it up.
> > I get lost.
>
> Thanks for all your help (I really like the thyroid/adrenal message board & site you recommended previously).http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=53370.1 (whole thread)
has a bit on adrenals. I'm just finally getting around to reading a link posted me last year..now can half understand it!
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=53370.29
got some stuff on aldosterone, potassium, sodium, breakdown of cholesterol, licorice etc.
Still haven't figured myself out though <g>Jan
Posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 1, 2004, at 23:47:10
Just came across this to do with autoimmune disease, particularly hashimoto's. Seems a genetic error in vitamin d production is common in hashimoto's.
So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
Posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 16:10:34
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
> Just came across this to do with autoimmune disease, particularly hashimoto's. Seems a genetic error in vitamin d production is common in hashimoto's.
>
> So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15296474
Thanks, Ray. Someone recently posted an article about how deficient most of us are in Vitamin D and how closely related that is to depression. The article said that you could take huge doses of Vit. D without any adverse effects. Then I read another article that said you can overdose on D and it doesn't take much. What do you think should be an optimal dosage?Also, what supplements do you take everyday? What other additional ones do you add in sometimes? I'm especially interested in what you take for depression. Anything else besides the Norival?
I can see from your last post that you really are in the right place here on the alternative board! Your comment about women wearing "carcinogens" to enhance beauty made me chuckle. I have always hated most perfumes myself. Do you take any medications at all or are you able to treat all of your health issues with more natural means?
-K
Posted by tealady on October 2, 2004, at 17:01:04
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
> Just came across this to do with autoimmune disease, particularly hashimoto's. Seems a genetic error in vitamin d production is common in hashimoto's.
>
> So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
>Yes, probably say some do. Some respond to tyrosine too.
Thanks Ray, you've been posting some good ones.
My problem is I'm not quite up to understanding this...half understand it now though.I know I have trouble converting carotene form VitD(skin goes an orangy color, at least before thyroid meds)..so I try to get VitD thru sunlight..which is usually pretty easy where I live..and if not in cod liver oil.
So now the question is is sunlight this form "1,25(OH)(2)D(3)" ? I knew to always take VitD3 form..
And what about cod liver ol?
Any ideas?
Thanks, Jan
Posted by tealady on October 2, 2004, at 19:38:22
In reply to Re: More stuff on lithium..interesting read from other, posted by TeeJay on September 27, 2004, at 6:43:21
> "Run across any bears? Might be some in the US and Canada? Do they have any in Europe at all?"
>
> Nah, not seen any! Might be the odd rampant Englishman growling around though if he keeps up with the selenium supplements ;-))Hmm Now I just need to know how to deal with bears and any "odd rampant Englishman growling around "..I wonder if you handle them similar
ANyOne in the Americas know what to do if you come across a growly bear? Can they outrun YOu? ..I guess they can climb trees too?
>
> I hear ya about the magnesium and ate mag glycinate tabs like smarties for some months a couple of years back but with little effect (couldnt even seem to find my tolerance level of them either (took 6 400mg tabs often with no effect)) also tried it with a a heavyish dose of niacinamide too and not much difference. Maybe the results may be slightly different now I dont smoke perhaps?My guess would be that you didn't absorb those mag.supps for some reason..maybe they were bound with cement? Some tablets I don't absorb or the fillers even have properties that counteract what you are taking...I end up taking liquids or powders or capsules containing powder a lot to skip the binders/fillers.
You should really only need say 200mg magnesium citrate (even 100mg might do it..1 tablet of the kind I got in England) if taken with the zinc and say 50mg B6 and a multiB/C (say levels 10-25).
Then (if you have a bath and not just a shower)..epsom salts in the bathwater occasionally is a way to get some magnesium..you can even on ocasion add a bit to drinking water..not too much though..I don't trust too much sulphates.
If you need more magnesium it's probably best to take some with calcium in a calc/mag combo at night..and if yoou think you need to slow down a bit ..like with the lithium, I'm not sure but calcium carbonate might be just the thing to take at night. Even magnesium oxide gets absorbed partly. I can notice a difference with it ..and so can others...it's just not the best type around if you have a choice...don't much over here.
Reason for not taking the B6 by itself is..it depletes the other B's and then you get some deficiency symptoms of the other b's...especially B1, B2, B3, B5, etc<g>..some of which could cause the symptoms you were/are experiencing.
And you usually don't need a real lot as they are synergistic? and you need the balance I was trying to explain for the best results.That n- acetyl-cysteine looks like it fits in real well with the selenium and this "group" of supps(zinc, B6, Multi, mag),.
And looking at a post by Ray.....
"N acetyl cysteine has been mentioned on this thread recently and both selenium and NAC are needed for glutathione peroxidase synthesis"
and
"Several foods contain naturally occurring glutathione, including avocado, watermelon, asparagus, acorn squash, strawberries, orange, tomato, cantaloupe, okra, peach, zucchini, and spinach."well I've never heard of acorn squash or okra and I haven't seen a cantaoupe..but I always feel better after strawberries and watermelon. ..and I use avocado instead of butter , say for steak sandwiches (steak is relatively cheap in Oz BTW). And oranges and peaches have always been up there too with feel good after eating foods.
spinach ain't..tried a lot last year and it did something dreadful..forgot what now..probably the oxalic acid, unsure.But I remember those delicious STRAWBERRIES in Wales and England,..huge and beautiful..and ended up eating a huge punnet at the airport before going thru customs that I'd bought that day...together with snow peas, etc..LOL
> Thanks for the info Jan.
>
> I've run out of the ginkgo now so will continue with what I have for a few days and then drop one supplement out every few days until I find which one seems to be causing the problem.
>
>
Only one problem with that way instead of building up gradually, It can take a few days(or even up to 3 weeks) before the effects of something that is a problem wears off?Hope you are feeling better,
Jan
Posted by Simus on October 2, 2004, at 23:13:43
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 5:15:30
That post really made me stop and think! You are so right!
Simus
Posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 0:21:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
> So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
Ray,To answer you question above:
Maybe not because ADD kids probably have too little dopamine to begin with - so if you're just bringing them up to a normal level, then maybe you're not exposing them to any risk of autoimmune problems.
-K
Posted by tealady on October 3, 2004, at 5:30:22
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by Simus on October 1, 2004, at 23:12:57
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=61297.41 and rest of thread (.42 especially)
Posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 12:54:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 16:10:34
> Thanks, Ray. Someone recently posted an article about how deficient most of us are in Vitamin D and how closely related that is to depression. The article said that you could take huge doses of Vit. D without any adverse effects. Then I read another article that said you can overdose on D and it doesn't take much. What do you think should be an optimal dosage?
>
> Also, what supplements do you take everyday? What other additional ones do you add in sometimes? I'm especially interested in what you take for depression. Anything else besides the Norival?
>
> I can see from your last post that you really are in the right place here on the alternative board! Your comment about women wearing "carcinogens" to enhance beauty made me chuckle. I have always hated most perfumes myself. Do you take any medications at all or are you able to treat all of your health issues with more natural means?
>
> -K
>
Always find it strange that we call vitamin D a vitamin when it's a steroid! I've heard that all the fat soluble 'vitamins' A, D, E, K can be toxic in large doses, but hear different ideas about safe and toxic doses. I did buy a vitamin D cream from biotics but it gives me a splitting headache, so might try some other sources - I definitely couldn't take megadoses of that one! Frequently if there's an enzyme block, taking a precursor of something can cause a build up that further inhibits the enzyme - that happens with omega 6 oils with LA to GLA so perhaps that is my problem with vitamin D?I try not to take just a supplement, but first identify a pattern, or problem and have a group of things that work with that problem as I always find things eventually stop working, when they knock something else out of balance.
So with glutathione or NAC I take niacinamide, thiamine, lipoic acid, but if it starts to feel odd, include some selenium and B2 - I have been lucky over the last few days that I can tolerate a multi (thorne's extra nutrients), but usually it feels great for a while then I have to go back to individual nutrients.
Carnosine to balance cell pH and protect cell membranes.
DPP IV - helps to regulate inflammatory cytokines.
Max DHA
silica, helps regulate collagen and extra celluar tissue as they are involved in immune regulation, especially in the brain.
Norival!! my favourite! to help support dopamine and noradrenaline. Biopterin in norival also important in serotonin synthesis. Sometimes take DLPA.
also take every now and then because of autoimmunity blocking enzymes...
vitamin A from a fish source - autoimmune/hypothyroid people don't seem to be able to use plant Vit A or convert beta carotene to Vit A
Sublingual B12 - antibodies to intrinsic factor in stomach can inhibit B12 absorption and also betaine HCl because of reduced HCl.
Sulphation - MSM or epsom salts baths - dopamine, estradiol, DHEA, cholecystokinin, all need to be sulphated, as do several toxins. Phenols from plants and from degradation of dopamine and adrenaline.
Methylation - methionine, sublingual B12, folinic acid (active folate), betaine and P5P. Heard that rose petals contain methyltransferase, so tried some rose water from an asian shop! felt quite good!
It does cost a fortune, but I'm feeling human now, so going to stick with it! Don't take any medication.
I think women hold the answers to the worlds problems - too many men together will eventually start a war.....or a football match! Think it should be world law that all governments are 50/50 male/female, and illegal to call god 'he' or 'father'!
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 13:53:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by tealady on October 2, 2004, at 17:01:04
> I know I have trouble converting carotene form VitD(skin goes an orangy color, at least before thyroid meds)..so I try to get VitD thru sunlight..which is usually pretty easy where I live..and if not in cod liver oil.
>
> So now the question is is sunlight this form "1,25(OH)(2)D(3)" ? I knew to always take VitD3 form..
> And what about cod liver ol?Thanks Jan,
I get the orangy skin too....drank carrot juice every morning for six months until people started laughing at me :(
Do you mean carotene to vitamin A though, haven't heard of a carotene vitamin D link?
I do take vitamin A from halibut oil every now and then as I've heard hypothyroid/autoimmune people can't metabolise carotenes or plant Vit A sources - Dr Megson has done a lot research on Vit A for autistic children.
I do try to get my Vit D through sunlight as I haven't found a supplement I can tolerate - from what I can make out Cod liver oil contains D3 (calcitriol or "1,25(OH)(2)D(3)") as do eggs and milk. What I'm not sure about is whether food sources of calcitriol will be seen as the same as D3 from sunlight....do you know?
Like Dr Mercola's pages and links on vit D..
http://www.mercola.com/fcgi/pf/2004/sep/11/vitamin_d.htm
Ray
Posted by tealady on October 3, 2004, at 18:22:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 13:53:56
> Do you mean carotene to vitamin A though, haven't heard of a carotene vitamin D link?
Sure do <g>..I'm not thinking clearly at present.
(that's also why I haven't replied to some posts of yours and JL's).
Guess I tend to think of VitA and D together as in cod liver oil too.edited<g>
I know I have trouble converting carotene form VitA(skin goes an orangy color, at least before thyroid meds).
I try to get VitD thru sunlight..which is usually pretty easy where I live..and if not in cod liver oil.
> >
> > So now the question is is sunlight this form "1,25(OH)(2)D(3)" ? I knew to always take VitD3 form..
> > And what about cod liver ol?
>
> Thanks Jan,
>
> I get the orangy skin too....drank carrot juice every morning for six months until people started laughing at me :(I didn't need to go that far..just a tiny amount of beta carotene in a multi was enough. I haven't retried but I assume it would still do the same. Not sure if taking thyroid meds would help at all with that.
I have skin that went orange, blue/purple especially lips and soles of hands/feet and red patches maybe like Lupus on face ..not at the same time <g>.
took a long time to maybe figure it out, still not completely sure except for the carotene <grin>>
>
> I do take vitamin A from halibut oil every now and then as I've heard hypothyroid/autoimmune people can't metabolise carotenes or plant Vit A sources - Dr Megson has done a lot research on Vit A for autistic children.
>I'll have a read sometime, thanks.
> I do try to get my Vit D through sunlight as I haven't found a supplement I can tolerate - from what I can make out Cod liver oil contains D3 (calcitriol or "1,25(OH)(2)D(3)") as do eggs and milk.What I'm not sure about is whether food sources of calcitriol will be seen as the same as D3 from sunlight....do you know?
not really...I think the sunlight is supposed to convert in your skin to the calcitriol, so it sounds the same.
Some may possibly get too much vitD from sunlight so need to cover up..talking about places like Saudi here..and maybe that's one reason for the traditional dress. I try to cover up in summer too, but there is still a big difference in skin and UV damage between England and here.
>
> Like Dr Mercola's pages and links on vit D..
>
> http://www.mercola.com/fcgi/pf/2004/sep/11/vitamin_d.htm
>yep, seen them thanks.
> Ray
Posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 18:24:46
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 12:54:16
Ray,
Do you know anything about "hypersensitive dopamine autoreceptors"? From my experiences with dopaminergic meds and supplements (they make me feel very tired) and from reading some of Dr. Jay Goldstein's work, I think that I probably have that problem. I wonder how that would fit it with selegiline, DLPA, Norival etc. When I took selegiline, I felt tired from it until many hours later when I got the activating effects. I've tried DLPA and do get a little bit activated on that - particularly when I add it to selegiline or when I consume a little bit of chocolate. So obviously the PEA effect is not a wash out with my malfunctioning autoreceptors. I wonder how the Norival would fit in to all of this. Probably wouldn't have much success with that either. I guess I'll have to try it to know for sure. I'm not even sure what I asking here. Just trying to figure out the full picture of what I'm dealing with I guess. Any insights you might have would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Kara
Posted by tealady on October 3, 2004, at 20:45:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Simus, posted by raybakes on September 29, 2004, at 13:49:39
>
> > And to complicate matters, I have read that in people with both adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism, the adrenal fatigue should be treated first. People with both can feel worse if given thyroid hormone before the adrenals are stronger. ???
> >
> Hi Simus, this study supports your view about treating adrenals first..
>
> Evaluation of thyroid function in patients with isolated adrenocorticotropin deficiency.
>
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1332472
>
> Ray
>Thanks from me too Ray, good one
Sounds like me I guess too. Unfortunately it's even more difficult to get lowish adrenal function treated or even tested...especially ACTH.
I think I'll have to try though.
It's all or nothing with most endos (Cushings, normal, or addisons).
Before taking thyroid hormones by morning cortsol was 310 (about 11 in US)..some say for safety it should be over 12..or preferably 15(multiply by 28 I think from memory for rest of world's units) or more to cope when your metabolism raises with the thyroid meds.After about 3 months on THYROID (Armour) my muscles went strangely really tight..like an athletes...then I developed carpel tunnel like symptoms. I had to add in cortisol to normalise, relax the muscles and stop the pain.
Before adding in the cortisol , my saliva 4 times a day cortisol tests showed pretty low...so low at that midnight (although I couldn't last up that long awake, so took it earlier)..it showed "too low for a reading"..and yes that was hw I felt.
So in me anyway adding in the thyroid meds seemed to cause my already "just coping most of the time" adrenals to crash..or that story seems to cover the symptoms.I guess liquorice would raise ACTH levels? (I need to check this)
I think it raises with
cortisol(by not converting)
and oestrogen(no idea how)
and raises sodium(maybe by helping retain in urine) as well as lowering potassium.
Ray, I'm really very interested in yur approach ..like lowering the antibodies ..as that has been what I have always thought would be the way to go.
You're way ahead of me though and my brain is not functioning very well at present..just wants to go away and do something else and forget it all(fishing sounds good).
I haven't heard of a lot of things you are taking..do you order them from the US..and how did you find out about all of this?
More later, but thanks. It's all very inetersting.
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 3:21:47
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » karaS, posted by raybakes on October 2, 2004, at 14:40:04
> Just came across this to do with autoimmune disease, particularly hashimoto's. Seems a genetic error in vitamin d production is common in hashimoto's.
>
> So low glutathione, low vitamin D and high prolactin are common in autoimmune disease. Interesting that prolactin is high in autism too, and as ritalin increases dopamine, wonder whether attention deficit kids have autoimmune problems?
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15296474this seems to say that thera re probably other enzymes that do the conversion to VitD3..so maybe no worries there?
"This idea may be supported by previous findings that complete loss of 1(OH)ase activity by genetic mutation of the 1(OH)ase gene in humans did not cause a reduction in serum 1,25(OH)2D3 levels sufficient to cause severe rickets (5, 6). It is therefore likely that, at least in humans, enzyme(s) other than 1(OH)ase (CYP27B1) are also specifically or nonspecifically responsible for 1,25(OH)2D3 production."
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/142/7/2734
Jan
Posted by tealady on October 4, 2004, at 3:49:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » tealady, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 13:53:56
This explains where oestrogen fits in..maybe increases the no of vitD receptors that drives the uptake of calcium into blood(I think it's saying) ..makes sense. I found increasing oestrogen increased my calcium blood levels slightly(doubt if significant though)..still low normal range
"Estrogen and 1,25(OH)2D3 appear to have common activities in the intestine. It has been shown in animal studies[75] that estrogen stimulates the expression of the 1,25(OH)2D3 receptor that drives the calbindin-mediated transport of calcium across the intestinal epithelial cells. It is possible that the negative effect of vitamin D deficiency on the bones of aged patients is enhanced by this lack of estrogen-dependent expression of the 1,25(OH)2D3 receptor."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/408926_2
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