![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 123 to 147 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 22:33:48
In reply to Re: what I'm planning on trying, posted by Simus on August 17, 2004, at 22:21:37
> > By way of anecdote, my trial last spring of Enada NADH (along with additional niacinamide) not only provided me with unprecedented energy and resiliency, but my allergies were virtually absent. I typically require double-doses of allergy meds, along with inhaled steroids, just to remain functional. But not during that trial.
>
> What is Enada NADH???
>
> Simus
>
Until Larry can add more, you might want to check out this link. (It's short.)
Posted by Simus on August 17, 2004, at 23:37:59
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 22:29:20
> Simus,
>
> So good to see you posting again. I honestly thought that my list had scared you away.
>
> What day is your doctor's appointment?
>
> KaraSorry. I had house guests for a while. I tried to make an appointment today but I had an old phone number that is no longer in use. I will try again tomorrow armed with the right number.
Simus
P.S. I read all the posts. Thanks for the laughs! (HA!!! Who else but you would come up with such a bizarre meaning for ROTFLMAO???)
Posted by Simus on August 17, 2004, at 23:41:33
In reply to Re: NADH » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 22:33:48
> > > By way of anecdote, my trial last spring of Enada NADH (along with additional niacinamide) not only provided me with unprecedented energy and resiliency, but my allergies were virtually absent. I typically require double-doses of allergy meds, along with inhaled steroids, just to remain functional. But not during that trial.
> >
> > What is Enada NADH???
> >
> > Simus
> >
>
>
> Until Larry can add more, you might want to check out this link. (It's short.)
>
> http://healthinfo.healthgate.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21810
>
>
Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 23:53:33
In reply to Re: what I'm taking » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 17, 2004, at 7:55:37
This long, long post has come full circle now (back to the original topic) and is still going strong. I wonder if it's one of the longest ever on Psycho-Babble. I think there should be prizes for such an accomplishment. (How about it, Dr. Bob?)
Please, Don Pardo, tell us what we've won!
But seriously now, I am struggling here to get the motivation and the focus to work on a spreadsheet for my temp job. I'm embarrassed that it's taking so long but I'm having the hardest time doing it.
I need to get more functional and fast!! I need to start treating the brain fog and the adrenal fatigue quickly. (There are some questions coming, I promise.) I've been reading that book on adrenal fatigue, the article Larry recommended on it, lots of posts etc. on treatment of depression, a Dr. Pall article on supplements for mental conditions and I've come up with a list of supplements and meds. The adrenal fatigue sources advise lots of supplements. I'm overwhelmed by the list and I can't afford to take all of them anyway. I need to select some and devise a program for myself.
Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
Ginkgo
SJW (Jarrow formula - no more Perika)
selegiline
DLPA
tyrosine
TMG and B12
Enada NADH
green tea extract
picamilon
Coenzyme Q10
ALA
NAC
DMAE
ALC
phosphatydlserine
piracetam or pramiracetam
hydergine
centrophenoxine
digestive enzymes
quercetin/bromelain (I know it overlaps but I
already have some of this at home.)
licorice and/or other adaptogen
green drink (with tons of antioxidants)
probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy pearls)I'm going to add exercise and and some cognitive therapy (jouraling).
It's not my thyroid. I'm on the right amount of hormone for that.
I've probably forgotten a bunch of things. Keep in mind that I already have at home now quite a bit of DMAE, selegiline, Jarrow SJW, NAC, tyrosine, B12, quercetin/bromelain, Enzymatic Therapy Pearls, maca and a little bit of ALC, ALA and picamilon.
I know that it's impossible to give me a quick answer that's going to take away all of my depression and functionality problems - but I want one nonetheless. Seriously, what seems like a reasonable approach to begin making me functional again?
- Desperate in LA
Posted by KaraS on August 18, 2004, at 0:24:52
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 17, 2004, at 23:37:59
> > Simus,
> >
> > So good to see you posting again. I honestly thought that my list had scared you away.
> >
> > What day is your doctor's appointment?
> >
> > Kara
>
> Sorry. I had house guests for a while. I tried to make an appointment today but I had an old phone number that is no longer in use. I will try again tomorrow armed with the right number.
>
> Simus
>
> P.S. I read all the posts. Thanks for the laughs! (HA!!! Who else but you would come up with such a bizarre meaning for ROTFLMAO???)
Glad I could provide you with more ROTFLMAO!
Posted by KaraS on August 18, 2004, at 0:33:42
In reply to Re: NADH » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 17, 2004, at 23:41:33
> > > > By way of anecdote, my trial last spring of Enada NADH (along with additional niacinamide) not only provided me with unprecedented energy and resiliency, but my allergies were virtually absent. I typically require double-doses of allergy meds, along with inhaled steroids, just to remain functional. But not during that trial.
> > >
> > > What is Enada NADH???
> > >
> > > Simus
> > >
> >
> >
> > Until Larry can add more, you might want to check out this link. (It's short.)
> >
> > http://healthinfo.healthgate.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21810
> >
> >
> Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
>
> Simus
I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive. I've also read that it doesn't take long to build a tolerance to it so it's not something you can use everyday (as opposed to co-Q10). I'm not sure that Larry had that experience with it. I can't remember why he isn't still taking it.Here's another link from Dr. Ray Sahelian. He mentions some case studies of people using it.
http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.html
I have tried 5 mg. sublingually but didn't have much effect. I think I needed to try more of it and over a period of time. (Then again I'm beginning to think that nothing short of an atomic bomb could get my system moving again.)
-K
Posted by Simus on August 18, 2004, at 1:09:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 23:53:33
Kara,
I'm sorry you are still having such a rough time.
I know I am no Larry, but could I ask if you get at least 2000mg of vitamin C and 1000mg pantothenic acid (B5) a day for the adrenal fatigue?
May things turn around for you very soon. You deserve a better life than this.
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 18, 2004, at 1:48:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 18, 2004, at 1:09:51
> Kara,
>
> I'm sorry you are still having such a rough time.
>
> I know I am no Larry, but could I ask if you get at least 2000mg of vitamin C and 1000mg pantothenic acid (B5) a day for the adrenal fatigue?
>
> May things turn around for you very soon. You deserve a better life than this.
>
> Simus
I take about 1,000 mg. vit C a day and 125 mg. of B5 now. I'll increase to 2,000 C and put B5 on the list to order. (I also take between 400-800 mg. magnesium a day.)THANKS!
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 18, 2004, at 19:03:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 23:53:33
> This long, long post has come full circle now (back to the original topic) and is still going strong. I wonder if it's one of the longest ever on Psycho-Babble...
I just replied over at PBA:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040717/msgs/379227.html
Bob
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:00:29
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 23:53:33
Dear Desperate in LA,
> This long, long post has come full circle now (back to the original topic) and is still going strong. I wonder if it's one of the longest ever on Psycho-Babble. I think there should be prizes for such an accomplishment. (How about it, Dr. Bob?)
Not even close, Kara.
> Please, Don Pardo, tell us what we've won!
Free advice! May be worht what you pay for it!
> But seriously now, I am struggling here to get the motivation and the focus to work on a spreadsheet for my temp job. I'm embarrassed that it's taking so long but I'm having the hardest time doing it.
Too busy on the Internet?
> I need to get more functional and fast!! I need to start treating the brain fog and the adrenal fatigue quickly. (There are some questions coming, I promise.) I've been reading that book on adrenal fatigue, the article Larry recommended on it, lots of posts etc. on treatment of depression, a Dr. Pall article on supplements for mental conditions and I've come up with a list of supplements and meds. The adrenal fatigue sources advise lots of supplements. I'm overwhelmed by the list and I can't afford to take all of them anyway. I need to select some and devise a program for myself.
You can't just start taking handfuls of stuff, blindly. Even Pall had a dosing schedule, that added stuff over time. I gotta find those private emails....
> Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
>
> Ginkgo (yes)
> SJW (Jarrow formula - no more Perika) (if depressed too)
> selegiline (don't know. probbly. metabolizes to amphetamine)
> DLPA (yes)
> tyrosine (probbly)
> TMG and B12 (yes, to both)
> Enada NADH (if other stuff didn't work first)
> green tea extract (dunno)
> picamilon (dunno....probbly sedating)
> Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> NAC (not sure...forget)
> DMAE (dunno)
> ALC (if it's cheap)
> phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
> piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> hydergine (dunno)
> centrophenoxine (really dunno)
> digestive enzymes (yes)
> quercetin/bromelain (I know it overlaps but I
> already have some of this at home.) (for sure, then)
> licorice and/or other adaptogen (Licorice isn't an adaptogen. It rests the adrenals, but is only for short-term use. Adaptogens are the ginsengs, for example)
> green drink (with tons of antioxidants) (sure, why not)
> probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy pearls) (if you got 'em)
>
> I'm going to add exercise and and some cognitive therapy (jouraling).Good ideas.
> It's not my thyroid. I'm on the right amount of hormone for that.
Some people don't do well with synthetic thyroid hormones, despite blood work saying they should be fine. That's why some people swear by Armour.
> I've probably forgotten a bunch of things. Keep in mind that I already have at home now quite a bit of DMAE, selegiline, Jarrow SJW, NAC, tyrosine, B12, quercetin/bromelain, Enzymatic Therapy Pearls, maca and a little bit of ALC, ALA and picamilon.Well, you already invested in those, eh?
> I know that it's impossible to give me a quick answer that's going to take away all of my depression and functionality problems - but I want one nonetheless.I think I done OK.
> Seriously, what seems like a reasonable approach to begin making me functional again?
>
> - Desperate in LAPatience. You didn't get sick in one day.....
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:09:33
In reply to Re: NADH » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 18, 2004, at 0:33:42
> > Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
> >
> > SimusIgnorance is the normal human condition. Those with initiative rise above it.
Co-Q10 is also known as ubiquinone. It's one of two key chemicals required for your mitochondria to produce ATP, the universal energy source for all the rest of the stuff your body does. The other key chemical is NADH.
Alphalipoic acid helps protect ubiquinone and NADH, too.
> I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive.
It can be expensive, I suppose, but no more than a Starbucks coffee is an expensive thing. CoQ10 and NADH are related, and both are promising for the same group.
> I've also read that it doesn't take long to build a tolerance to it so it's not something you can use everyday (as opposed to co-Q10).
True and true.
> I'm not sure that Larry had that experience with it. I can't remember why he isn't still taking it.
Neither can I. Actually, I did it too frequently (became irritable), and it did make my insomnia worse (diminishing returns).
> Here's another link from Dr. Ray Sahelian. He mentions some case studies of people using it.
>
> http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.htmlGood link. Covers the bases well.
> I have tried 5 mg. sublingually but didn't have much effect. I think I needed to try more of it and over a period of time. (Then again I'm beginning to think that nothing short of an atomic bomb could get my system moving again.)
>
> -KTake six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 19, 2004, at 15:22:08
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:00:29
> Dear Desperate in LA,
>
> > This long, long post has come full circle now (back to the original topic) and is still going strong. I wonder if it's one of the longest ever on Psycho-Babble. I think there should be prizes for such an accomplishment. (How about it, Dr. Bob?)
>
> Not even close, Kara.Oh well, it was worth a try!
>
> > Please, Don Pardo, tell us what we've won!
>
> Free advice! May be worht what you pay for it!
So far it's been worth much more than that!!!> > But seriously now, I am struggling here to get the motivation and the focus to work on a spreadsheet for my temp job. I'm embarrassed that it's taking so long but I'm having the hardest time doing it.
>
> Too busy on the Internet?That's definitely part of it.
> > I need to get more functional and fast!! I need to start treating the brain fog and the adrenal fatigue quickly. (There are some questions coming, I promise.) I've been reading that book on adrenal fatigue, the article Larry recommended on it, lots of posts etc. on treatment of depression, a Dr. Pall article on supplements for mental conditions and I've come up with a list of supplements and meds. The adrenal fatigue sources advise lots of supplements. I'm overwhelmed by the list and I can't afford to take all of them anyway. I need to select some and devise a program for myself.
> > You can't just start taking handfuls of stuff, blindly. Even Pall had a dosing schedule, that added stuff over time. I gotta find those private emails....I know - It's just that there were so many things that were recommended and I wanted to figure out, which would be the most likely to help me given limited resources. Unfortunately I'm trying to find answers to depression, adrenal fatigue and concentration problems all at once so what I'm asking for is fairly unreasonable. But then you're "Hoover, Larry Hoover."
BTW, the Pall article i read was more geared towards Alzheimers but definitely some overlap for my purposes. When you corresponded with him was it specifically about adrenal fatigue?
> > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> >
> > Ginkgo (yes)
> > SJW (Jarrow formula - no more Perika) (if depressed too)
> > selegiline (don't know. probbly. metabolizes to amphetamine)Yes it does but it's probably the best shot I have of helping my depression and the concentration problems. Horrible for adrenal fatigue though? I'd be taking it in only 5 mg. dosage and with DLPA?
> > DLPA (yes)
> > tyrosine (probbly)
> > TMG and B12 (yes, to both)
> > Enada NADH (if other stuff didn't work first)
> > green tea extract (dunno)
> > picamilon (dunno....probbly sedating)It's supposed to be energizing in larger doses but I haven't tried it that way yet.
> > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> > NAC (not sure...forget)Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> > DMAE (dunno)
> > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all. Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows? Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
> > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > hydergine (dunno)
> > centrophenoxine (really dunno)Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> > digestive enzymes (yes)
> > quercetin/bromelain (I know it overlaps but I
> > already have some of this at home.) (for sure, then)
> > licorice and/or other adaptogen (Licorice isn't an adaptogen. It rests the adrenals, but is only for short-term use. Adaptogens are the ginsengs, for example)ok. I'm probably going to start on the adaptogen maca again. I also have at home Eleuthero. I could only tolerate it in samll amounts. Wonder if it's worth adding that in those small amounts. I had read somewhere that it's not good if you have hypoglycemia but then I read somewhere else that it's particularly good for hypoglycemia. ARRRGGGGHHH. I have a feeling that regular Ginseng is the one not good for hypoglycemia. So hard to know who is right when you read conflicting things like that.
I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
> > green drink (with tons of antioxidants) (sure, why not)Maybe I'll try that for one month. It has a small amount of licorice (50 mg.) in it. Have you ever tried a green drink? Are they too disgusting tasting or what?
> > probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy pearls) (if you got 'em)
> >
> > I'm going to add exercise and and some cognitive therapy (jouraling).
> Good ideas.
That was suuposed to be "journaling". Trouble is I need some help with motivation to even do those things. Such a vicious circle!> > It's not my thyroid. I'm on the right amount of hormone for that.
>
> Some people don't do well with synthetic thyroid hormones, despite blood work saying they should be fine. That's why some people swear by Armour.I've done a lot of research on thryoid problems including the about.com site and Mary Shomon's books as well as several other books. I agree and I usually take Armour.
> > I've probably forgotten a bunch of things. Keep in mind that I already have at home now quite a bit of DMAE, selegiline, Jarrow SJW, NAC, tyrosine, B12, quercetin/bromelain, Enzymatic Therapy Pearls, maca and a little bit of ALC, ALA and picamilon.
>
> Well, you already invested in those, eh?Yes, but just because they're here doesn't mean that they're good for my situation now.
> > I know that it's impossible to give me a quick answer that's going to take away all of my depression and functionality problems - but I want one nonetheless.
>
> I think I done OK.You done good. You always do!
> Patience. You didn't get sick in one day.....
>
> LarI know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).
How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you. Have any of your tests come back yet?
- Concerned in LA
Posted by KaraS on August 19, 2004, at 15:33:00
In reply to Re: NADH » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2004, at 10:09:33
> > > Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
> > >
> > > Simus
>
> Ignorance is the normal human condition. Those with initiative rise above it.Good point.
>
> Co-Q10 is also known as ubiquinone. It's one of two key chemicals required for your mitochondria to produce ATP, the universal energy source for all the rest of the stuff your body does. The other key chemical is NADH.
>
> Alphalipoic acid helps protect ubiquinone and NADH, too.
>
> > I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive.
>
> It can be expensive, I suppose, but no more than a Starbucks coffee is an expensive thing. CoQ10 and NADH are related, and both are promising for the same group.
>True, have a Starbucks coffee everyday would be on par with NADH daily.
I was thinking that Co-Q10 and NADH not related structurally. I think you're saying they're related functionally, no?
I've read that idebenone is even better than Co-Q10. Do you agree?
> > I've also read that it doesn't take long to build a tolerance to it so it's not something you can use everyday (as opposed to Co-Q10).
>
> True and true.
>
> > I'm not sure that Larry had that experience with it. I can't remember why he isn't still taking it.
>
> Neither can I. Actually, I did it too frequently (became irritable), and it did make my insomnia worse (diminishing returns).
>
> > Here's another link from Dr. Ray Sahelian. He mentions some case studies of people using it.
> >
> > http://www.raysahelian.com/nadh.html
>
> Good link. Covers the bases well.
>
> > I have tried 5 mg. sublingually but didn't have much effect. I think I needed to try more of it and over a period of time. (Then again I'm beginning to think that nothing short of an atomic bomb could get my system moving again.)
> >
> > -K
>
> Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)> Lar
You're kidding with that dose, right?
Be well and prosper,
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:46:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 19, 2004, at 15:22:08
> > Dear Desperate in LA,
I thought that was worthy of note. :-(
> > > This long, long post has come full circle now (back to the original topic) and is still going strong. I wonder if it's one of the longest ever on Psycho-Babble. I think there should be prizes for such an accomplishment. (How about it, Dr. Bob?)
> >
> > Not even close, Kara.
>
> Oh well, it was worth a try!It may well be the longest on this board, though. Better a big frog in a smaller pond.
> >
> > > Please, Don Pardo, tell us what we've won!
> >
> > Free advice! May be worht what you pay for it!
>
>
> So far it's been worth much more than that!!!I am glad it works like that.
> > > But seriously now, I am struggling here to get the motivation and the focus to work on a spreadsheet for my temp job. I'm embarrassed that it's taking so long but I'm having the hardest time doing it.
> >
> > Too busy on the Internet?
>
> That's definitely part of it.I hope you acknowledge the value of the social interaction, knowledge acquisition, simply being paid attention. When I do that, it's easier to move away and attend to other matters which I value (like sleep, doing the dishes, etc.). It seems that when I'm being negative about my Internet activity, that I am most drawn to it.
> > > You can't just start taking handfuls of stuff, blindly. Even Pall had a dosing schedule, that added stuff over time. I gotta find those private emails....
>
> I know - It's just that there were so many things that were recommended and I wanted to figure out, which would be the most likely to help me given limited resources. Unfortunately I'm trying to find answers to depression, adrenal fatigue and concentration problems all at once so what I'm asking for is fairly unreasonable. But then you're "Hoover, Larry Hoover."Yes, so I am. Thank goodness it's sewn into the edge of my socks. Otherwise, I forget.
> BTW, the Pall article i read was more geared towards Alzheimers but definitely some overlap for my purposes. When you corresponded with him was it specifically about adrenal fatigue?Pall has been studying neurodegenerative processes for years. It doesn't surprise me that he's looking at Alzheimer's, but I knew him from his work on chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.
His faculty website is still not working. :-/ (that's a grumpy face, Kara)
However, some of his work is available elsewhere.
http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5935/5935.html
http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/4393/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
Here's one based on his work:
http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/chronic_fatigue_syndrome.pdfDon't be worried about whether Multiple Chemical Sensitivity applies to you or not. The underlying biochemistry is the same. It just expresses itself differently in different people.
> > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > >
> > > Ginkgo (yes)
> > > SJW (Jarrow formula - no more Perika) (if depressed too)
> > > selegiline (don't know. probbly. metabolizes to amphetamine)
>
> Yes it does but it's probably the best shot I have of helping my depression and the concentration problems. Horrible for adrenal fatigue though? I'd be taking it in only 5 mg. dosage and with DLPA?I really don't know (about low-dose selegiline being an adrenal stressor). If you support your adrenals with the appropriate nutrients, I think you can manage things all right. You need your adrenals to work right, no matter what course of action is restorative.
> > > DLPA (yes)
> > > tyrosine (probbly)
> > > TMG and B12 (yes, to both)
> > > Enada NADH (if other stuff didn't work first)
> > > green tea extract (dunno)
> > > picamilon (dunno....probbly sedating)
>
> It's supposed to be energizing in larger doses but I haven't tried it that way yet.If it is, I bet it's from the B-vitamin, not the GABA.
> > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> > > NAC (not sure...forget)
>
> Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
> > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
>
> I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all.Articles are suggestive to me, never definitive. I have never seen another recommendation to take that much phosphatidylserine, ever. PS is also a neurotransmitter. I would never take that much.
> Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows?
Soya lecithin is a good source of the three other phosphatides: phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, and phosphatidylethanolamine. You'll note that the chemical names reflect their structure. They contain choline, inositol and ethanolamine, respectively. The missing one of the soy-based tetrad is phosphatidylserine. They chemically switch one or another of the add-on bits to serine, and you get phosphatidlyserine.
> Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
The only possible benefit of natural source materials is that they may be impure. It happens that some of the impurities are natural cofactors for the target nutrient, so it's more like taking a multivitamin instead of a single nutrient. That is an accidental effect, and is not due to chemical differences in the nutrient itself.
"Natural source" vitamin C happens to come with other impurities (what are called co-extractives), such as bioflavinoids. People had better results from natural vitamin C because they got other active chemicals, not because the vitamin C was better.
Synthetic nutrients are generally very pure, because chemists are working with very pure chemicals as a matter of course.
> > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
>
> Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
> > > digestive enzymes (yes)
> > > quercetin/bromelain (I know it overlaps but I
> > > already have some of this at home.) (for sure, then)
> > > licorice and/or other adaptogen (Licorice isn't an adaptogen. It rests the adrenals, but is only for short-term use. Adaptogens are the ginsengs, for example)
>
> ok. I'm probably going to start on the adaptogen maca again. I also have at home Eleuthero. I could only tolerate it in samll amounts. Wonder if it's worth adding that in those small amounts.I find Siberian ginseng helpful, as you say, in smallish amounts.
> I had read somewhere that it's not good if you have hypoglycemia but then I read somewhere else that it's particularly good for hypoglycemia. ARRRGGGGHHH. I have a feeling that regular Ginseng is the one not good for hypoglycemia. So hard to know who is right when you read conflicting things like that.
Oh, I know that. Such is the nature of the beast. There are many many pseudo-scientists and poseurs in the alternative field.
> I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
It was a strange mix of both, for me, if I recall correctly. Messed with my sleep.
> > > green drink (with tons of antioxidants) (sure, why not)
>
> Maybe I'll try that for one month. It has a small amount of licorice (50 mg.) in it. Have you ever tried a green drink? Are they too disgusting tasting or what?I'm just trying Greens capsules. Can't taste those. Might help, can't hurt, is my attitude.
That amount of licorice is trivial. I wonder why companies add in those little bits of this and that? <shrug>
> > > probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy pearls) (if you got 'em)
> > >
> > > I'm going to add exercise and and some cognitive therapy (jouraling).
>
> > Good ideas.
>
>
> That was suuposed to be "journaling".Really? ;-) (that's a wink)
> Trouble is I need some help with motivation to even do those things. Such a vicious circle!
That's where the patience comes in, Kara. You have to push sensibly. I look at each day, the demands for that day, and my energy budget. I have to balance the energy books for that day. If I have to dip into "savings", my energy reserves, I have to recognize the risk involved (i.e. future opportunities for doing so). If I run the account into the red, I fall down, go boom.
> > > It's not my thyroid. I'm on the right amount of hormone for that.
> >
> > Some people don't do well with synthetic thyroid hormones, despite blood work saying they should be fine. That's why some people swear by Armour.
>
> I've done a lot of research on thryoid problems including the about.com site and Mary Shomon's books as well as several other books. I agree and I usually take Armour.OK. Just making sure.
> > > I've probably forgotten a bunch of things. Keep in mind that I already have at home now quite a bit of DMAE, selegiline, Jarrow SJW, NAC, tyrosine, B12, quercetin/bromelain, Enzymatic Therapy Pearls, maca and a little bit of ALC, ALA and picamilon.
> >
> > Well, you already invested in those, eh?
>
> Yes, but just because they're here doesn't mean that they're good for my situation now.Indeed.
> > > I know that it's impossible to give me a quick answer that's going to take away all of my depression and functionality problems - but I want one nonetheless.
> >
> > I think I done OK.
>
> You done good. You always do!I don't like black and white thinking (I'm not *always* anything). I appreciate the sentiment, very much, nonetheless.
> > Patience. You didn't get sick in one day.....
> >
> > Lar
>
> I know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).Excellent!
> How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you.
Yes, it was. I know that I can sleep better, in a quiet environment. My own is noisy, and with the physical contrast between the two circumstances, I now know that I either have to move (I hate moving), or find a way to block the noise. I just sent away for a white noise generator. We'll see if that helps.
Otherwise, I feel rather robust. It's good to have me back. Thanks for asking.
> Have any of your tests come back yet?
MRI results next week. Bone marrow biopsy cancelled (not needed, after all). The latter would have happened yesterday, and it was cancelled on Monday. I wasn't looking forward to that one.
> - Concerned in LA:-) Got me!
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:53:25
In reply to Re: NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 19, 2004, at 15:33:00
> > > > Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
> > > >
> > > > Simus
> >
> > Ignorance is the normal human condition. Those with initiative rise above it.
>
> Good point.I do that, once in a while, eh?
> >
> > Co-Q10 is also known as ubiquinone. It's one of two key chemicals required for your mitochondria to produce ATP, the universal energy source for all the rest of the stuff your body does. The other key chemical is NADH.
> >
> > Alphalipoic acid helps protect ubiquinone and NADH, too.
> >
> > > I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive.
> >
> > It can be expensive, I suppose, but no more than a Starbucks coffee is an expensive thing. CoQ10 and NADH are related, and both are promising for the same group.
> >
>
> True, have a Starbucks coffee everyday would be on par with NADH daily.I always try to contextualize the price of self-care. What's the price of NADH, in terms of cigarette packs or six-packs of beer? Ya know?
> I was thinking that Co-Q10 and NADH not related structurally. I think you're saying they're related functionally, no?Yes, they are functionally related. They have no structural similarity, at all. CoQ10 acts in a biochemical energy transfer, passing the energy over to NADH.
> I've read that idebenone is even better than Co-Q10. Do you agree?CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.
Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.
> > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
>
> > Lar
>
> You're kidding with that dose, right?No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> Be well and prosper,
>
> KaraYou too. We will, you know.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:56:12
In reply to Re: NADH » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:53:25
> > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> >
> > > Lar
> >
> > You're kidding with that dose, right?
>
> No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
>
> > Be well and prosper,
> >
> > Kara
>
> You too. We will, you know.
>
> LarP.S. I forgot to emphasize that my point was to counter your assertion that "nothing short of an atom bomb" would have an effect on you. I am not seriously suggesting you use a big dose of TMG, but I suspect that you would discover that six grams of TMG is less than an atom bomb.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:30:05
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:46:02
> > > Dear Desperate in LA,
>
> > > Too busy on the Internet?
> >
> > That's definitely part of it.
>
> I hope you acknowledge the value of the social interaction, knowledge acquisition, simply being paid attention. When I do that, it's easier to move away and attend to other matters which I value (like sleep, doing the dishes, etc.). It seems that when I'm being negative about my Internet activity, that I am most drawn to it.
Absolutely. The advice, support and humor are invaluable.> His faculty website is still not working. :-/ (that's a grumpy face, Kara)
Are you making some of these up or is that really an accepted representation? How does everybody know all of the symbols? Is there a list somewhere? Perhaps if I had developed this Internet forum addiction years ago, I'd know all of this but being a newbie, I'm really in the dark (in more ways than one).
> However, some of his work is available elsewhere.
>
> http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5935/5935.html
>
> http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/4393/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
>
> Here's one based on his work:
> http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/chronic_fatigue_syndrome.pdf
>
> Don't be worried about whether Multiple Chemical Sensitivity applies to you or not. The underlying biochemistry is the same. It just expresses itself differently in different people.
>Thanks. I'll check them out this weekend. One thing that's confusing is trying to figure out what pertains and what doesn't when he's gearing his talk to a different, but in someways related, topic. I may end up favoring certain supplements when I should be favoring others.
> > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > >
> > > > Ginkgo (yes)This is high on the list now (unless I start taking selegiline. Don't know if you can mix them?) It's good for focus, memory, immune system and side effects from Effexor withdrawal. Hope I can tolerate it.
> > > > SJW (Jarrow formula - no more Perika) (if depressed too)
> > > > selegiline (don't know. probbly. metabolizes to amphetamine)
> >
> > Yes it does but it's probably the best shot I have of helping my depression and the concentration problems. Horrible for adrenal fatigue though? I'd be taking it in only 5 mg. dosage and with DLPA?
>
> I really don't know (about low-dose selegiline being an adrenal stressor). If you support your adrenals with the appropriate nutrients, I think you can manage things all right. You need your adrenals to work right, no matter what course of action is restorative.
>
> > > > DLPA (yes)
> > > > tyrosine (probbly)
> > > > TMG and B12 (yes, to both)
> > > > Enada NADH (if other stuff didn't work first)
> > > > green tea extract (dunno)> > > > picamilon (dunno....probbly sedating)
> >
> > It's supposed to be energizing in larger doses but I haven't tried it that way yet.
>
> If it is, I bet it's from the B-vitamin, not the GABA.
>I just read the following on Picamilon (while looking for info on it's differing effects at different dosages):
"Picamilone has a unique tranquilizing effect (the manifestation of action is inferior to diazepam); in this case picamilone does not cause a myorelaxation effect. The important property of picamilone is the ability to quickly restore mental and physical fitness for work, which was lost through overstress."
Maybe that should be near the top of my list to try as well!! (Of course it would be either or, NOT combined with Ginkgo.) Here's the link that it came from on IAS' web site. I am taking into account that it comes from a source that is selling it:
http://www.picamilone.org/picamilone-1.htm
Here's another blurb about the dosage:
"EFFECTS:
The effects of Picamilon are usually felt quickly, with most people noticing impact within an hour. The effects of each dose last for about 4-6 hours. In small doses of 50mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a mild tranquilizing and mood stabilizing effect without sedation. In higher doses of 100mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a stimulating influence that is experienced as an increase in energy and endurance. The cognitive enhancing effects of Picamilon are cumulative and become more evident after several weeks of daily usage."The paragraph above is also from a site selling it. Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
http://www.smart-drugs.net/info-picamilon.htm
> > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.
> > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
>
> Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
>
> > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> >
> > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
>
> I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.via glutathione:
NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.
> > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.
> >
> > I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all.
>
> Articles are suggestive to me, never definitive. I have never seen another recommendation to take that much phosphatidylserine, ever. PS is also a neurotransmitter. I would never take that much.
Yes, you really do need to read a lot of dfferent things and then form your opinion.
I forgot that it was also a neurotransmitter. Do you take it? If so, how much?
> > Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows?
>
> Soya lecithin is a good source of the three other phosphatides: phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, and phosphatidylethanolamine. You'll note that the chemical names reflect their structure. They contain choline, inositol and ethanolamine, respectively. The missing one of the soy-based tetrad is phosphatidylserine. They chemically switch one or another of the add-on bits to serine, and you get phosphatidlyserine.
>
> > Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
>
> The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
>Cute!
> The only possible benefit of natural source materials is that they may be impure. It happens that some of the impurities are natural cofactors for the target nutrient, so it's more like taking a multivitamin instead of a single nutrient. That is an accidental effect, and is not due to chemical differences in the nutrient itself.
>
> "Natural source" vitamin C happens to come with other impurities (what are called co-extractives), such as bioflavinoids. People had better results from natural vitamin C because they got other active chemicals, not because the vitamin C was better.
>
> Synthetic nutrients are generally very pure, because chemists are working with very pure chemicals as a matter of course.Yes, that's exactly my understanding of it. My description was clumsy. But the point is that those other active chemicals in the complex that was called phosphatidylserine are not in the substance that is now called phosphatidylserine. So is it as useful? Is it worth the expense?
>
> > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"
> > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
>
> No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.
> > > > digestive enzymes (yes)
> > > > quercetin/bromelain (I know it overlaps but I
> > > > already have some of this at home.) (for sure, then)
> > > > licorice and/or other adaptogen (Licorice isn't an adaptogen. It rests the adrenals, but is only for short-term use. Adaptogens are the ginsengs, for example)
> >
> > ok. I'm probably going to start on the adaptogen maca again. I also have at home Eleuthero. I could only tolerate it in samll amounts. Wonder if it's worth adding that in those small amounts.
>
> I find Siberian ginseng helpful, as you say, in smallish amounts.Good to know.
> > I had read somewhere that it's not good if you have hypoglycemia but then I read somewhere else that it's particularly good for hypoglycemia. ARRRGGGGHHH. I have a feeling that regular Ginseng is the one not good for hypoglycemia. So hard to know who is right when you read conflicting things like that.
>
> Oh, I know that. Such is the nature of the beast. There are many many pseudo-scientists and poseurs in the alternative field.Yes, with no regulating committees to review them. Then add on all of the people trying to sell things and the claims they make, and you have an environment in which you have to be very careful and skeptical in whatever you read.
> > I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
>
> It was a strange mix of both, for me, if I recall correctly. Messed with my sleep.
>You do have a terrible time with that, don't you?
> > > > green drink (with tons of antioxidants) (sure, why not)
> >
> > Maybe I'll try that for one month. It has a small amount of licorice (50 mg.) in it. Have you ever tried a green drink? Are they too disgusting tasting or what?
>
> I'm just trying Greens capsules. Can't taste those. Might help, can't hurt, is my attitude.
>
> That amount of licorice is trivial. I wonder why companies add in those little bits of this and that? <shrug>So that those who don't know enough will be impressed with the long list of ingredients in the drink or supplement and purchase them. Must work enough 'cuz they keep doing it. Some times I'll see products with tons of ingredients and yet none of them in any strength to do very much. The entire product is useless. "Caveat Emptor" as they say.
> > > > probiotics (Enzymatic Therapy pearls) (if you got 'em)
> > > >
> > > > I'm going to add exercise and and some cognitive therapy (jouraling).
> >
> > > Good ideas.
> >
> >
> > That was suuposed to be "journaling".
>
> Really? ;-) (that's a wink)
>
> > Trouble is I need some help with motivation to even do those things. Such a vicious circle!
>
> That's where the patience comes in, Kara. You have to push sensibly. I look at each day, the demands for that day, and my energy budget. I have to balance the energy books for that day. If I have to dip into "savings", my energy reserves, I have to recognize the risk involved (i.e. future opportunities for doing so). If I run the account into the red, I fall down, go boom.
>Do you really? I've never thought about it that way. I wouldn't even know where to begin to do that. I'd have to know how much energy I'd have available each day and I don't know that. It's not stable in my case.
> > > > It's not my thyroid. I'm on the right amount of hormone for that.
> > >
> > > Some people don't do well with synthetic thyroid hormones, despite blood work saying they should be fine. That's why some people swear by Armour.
> >
> > I've done a lot of research on thryoid problems including the about.com site and Mary Shomon's books as well as several other books. I agree and I usually take Armour.
>
> OK. Just making sure.
>
> > > > I've probably forgotten a bunch of things. Keep in mind that I already have at home now quite a bit of DMAE, selegiline, Jarrow SJW, NAC, tyrosine, B12, quercetin/bromelain, Enzymatic Therapy Pearls, maca and a little bit of ALC, ALA and picamilon.
> > >
> > > Well, you already invested in those, eh?
> >
> > Yes, but just because they're here doesn't mean that they're good for my situation now.
>
> Indeed.
>
> > > > I know that it's impossible to give me a quick answer that's going to take away all of my depression and functionality problems - but I want one nonetheless.
> > >
> > > I think I done OK.
> >
> > You done good. You always do!
>
> I don't like black and white thinking (I'm not *always* anything). I appreciate the sentiment, very much, nonetheless.> > > Patience. You didn't get sick in one day.....
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > I know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).
>
> Excellent!
>
> > How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you.
>
> Yes, it was. I know that I can sleep better, in a quiet environment. My own is noisy, and with the physical contrast between the two circumstances, I now know that I either have to move (I hate moving), or find a way to block the noise. I just sent away for a white noise generator. We'll see if that helps.It should help. You could also try a loud fan. I have been using a loud fan as my white noise generator for many years. I can't stand sleeping without it. The minute i hear it, a sense of calm and euphoria (seriously) comes over me. I can't tell you how much I love it. I always shop around for the noisiest fans. People think I'm crazy (for more reasons than just this one, however). I can't stand it when fans advertise as "whisper quiet". What the hell good is that??? Air conditioning noise is even better - pure nirvana.
> Otherwise, I feel rather robust. It's good to have me back. Thanks for asking.
> > Have any of your tests come back yet?
>
> MRI results next week. Bone marrow biopsy cancelled (not needed, after all). The latter would have happened yesterday, and it was cancelled on Monday. I wasn't looking forward to that one.
>
> > - Concerned in LA
>
> :-) Got me!
>
> LarGlad there was no need for the bone marrow biopsy!
- Relieved in LA
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:50:19
In reply to Re: NADH » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:53:25
> > > > > Wow. Almost sounds too good to be true. Sorry to sound ignorant, but would this be in the same family as co-Q10?
> > > > >
> > > > > Simus
> > >
> > > Ignorance is the normal human condition. Those with initiative rise above it.
> >
> > Good point.
>
> I do that, once in a while, eh?
>
> > >
> > > Co-Q10 is also known as ubiquinone. It's one of two key chemicals required for your mitochondria to produce ATP, the universal energy source for all the rest of the stuff your body does. The other key chemical is NADH.
> > >
> > > Alphalipoic acid helps protect ubiquinone and NADH, too.
> > >
> > > > I don't think they're related though the same people would be drawn to them. Enada NADH is very expensive.
> > >
> > > It can be expensive, I suppose, but no more than a Starbucks coffee is an expensive thing. CoQ10 and NADH are related, and both are promising for the same group.
> > >
> >
> > True, have a Starbucks coffee everyday would be on par with NADH daily.
>
> I always try to contextualize the price of self-care. What's the price of NADH, in terms of cigarette packs or six-packs of beer? Ya know?
>
> > I was thinking that Co-Q10 and NADH not related structurally. I think you're saying they're related functionally, no?
>
> Yes, they are functionally related. They have no structural similarity, at all. CoQ10 acts in a biochemical energy transfer, passing the energy over to NADH.
>
> > I've read that idebenone is even better than Co-Q10. Do you agree?
>
> CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.
> Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)
>
> > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> >
> > > Lar
> >
> > You're kidding with that dose, right?
>
> No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
>I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.
> > Be well and prosper,
> >
> > Kara
>
> You too. We will, you know.
>
> LarI don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:53:27
In reply to Re: NADH » Larry Hoover, posted by Larry Hoover on August 20, 2004, at 7:56:12
> > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > >
> > > > Lar
> > >
> > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> >
> > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> >
> > > Be well and prosper,
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> > You too. We will, you know.
> >
> > Lar
>
> P.S. I forgot to emphasize that my point was to counter your assertion that "nothing short of an atom bomb" would have an effect on you. I am not seriously suggesting you use a big dose of TMG, but I suspect that you would discover that six grams of TMG is less than an atom bomb.
>
> Lar
>I'm much too chicken to try a huge dose right away. My style is to build up very, very slowly on things. I'd stop way before the atom bomb effect.
Kara
Posted by Simus on August 21, 2004, at 21:44:32
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 17, 2004, at 22:29:20
> What day is your doctor's appointment?
Kara,
I have an appointment on Tuesday with the Naturopathic Doctor. I sure hope she can help me more than the traditional doctors have. Thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble Alternative that have helped me get this far. I will let you know how it goes.
How have you been feeling. Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
I am glad that you are still hanging on to that wonderful sense of humor. I enjoy reading your posts.
Hey, way to find Larry's sweetie! Good detective work! I am impressed.
God bless,
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 1:51:30
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 21, 2004, at 21:44:32
> > What day is your doctor's appointment?
>
> Kara,
>
> I have an appointment on Tuesday with the Naturopathic Doctor. I sure hope she can help me more than the traditional doctors have. Thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble Alternative that have helped me get this far. I will let you know how it goes.
>Great. Can't wait to hear about it.
> How have you been feeling.Like I'm in a canoe at sea without any paddles and I'm running out of food. (You're a sweatheart for asking though. I'm sure things will get better once I get my program into action. Larry keeps urging patience but that's really a luxury I don't have right now.)
>Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
I'm still devising "the plan". I've asked Larry a gazillion questions in the last few days. Yes, definitely thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble in general.
> I am glad that you are still hanging on to that wonderful sense of humor. I enjoy reading your posts.Thanks. Same here. I'm always surprised when I post on another board and someone will make mention of one of my posts here on the Alternative Board. I sometimes forget that other people are reading them. I always assume that they would bore everyone to death the way I drone on and on and on about the various supplements I'm thinking of taking.
> Hey, way to find Larry's sweetie! Good detective work! I am impressed.I'm not as dumb as I look!
Well, now that they're outed I think it's only fair that we get more of the details, don't you???
> God bless,
>
> Simus
God bless you too,Kara
Posted by Simus on August 22, 2004, at 2:37:27
In reply to Re: ROTFLMAO!!! » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 1:51:30
> > How have you been feeling.
>
> Like I'm in a canoe at sea without any paddles and I'm running out of food. (You're a sweatheart for asking though. I'm sure things will get better once I get my program into action. Larry keeps urging patience but that's really a luxury I don't have right now.)I know that feeling well. I am praying for you. I wish I had that "secret answer" to make it all better for you.
> >Have you tried anything else? What results have you had?
>
> I'm still devising "the plan". I've asked Larry a gazillion questions in the last few days. Yes, definitely thank God for the Internet and Psycho-Babble in general.
>
Let us know how you are doing, OK?God bless,
Simus
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:30:05
> > His faculty website is still not working. :-/ (that's a grumpy face, Kara)
>
> Are you making some of these up or is that really an accepted representation?You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
> How does everybody know all of the symbols? Is there a list somewhere?
Sorry, I should have pasted it here. ;-) <winky face>
> Perhaps if I had developed this Internet forum addiction years ago, I'd know all of this but being a newbie, I'm really in the dark (in more ways than one).
I seem to like that you are in the dark, Kara. ;->
>
> > However, some of his work is available elsewhere.
> >
> > http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5935/5935.html
> >
> > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/4393/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
> >
> > Here's one based on his work:
> > http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/chronic_fatigue_syndrome.pdf
> >
> > Don't be worried about whether Multiple Chemical Sensitivity applies to you or not. The underlying biochemistry is the same. It just expresses itself differently in different people.
> >
>
> Thanks. I'll check them out this weekend. One thing that's confusing is trying to figure out what pertains and what doesn't when he's gearing his talk to a different, but in someways related, topic. I may end up favoring certain supplements when I should be favoring others.Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
> > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
>
> This is high on the list now (unless I start taking selegiline. Don't know if you can mix them?)I wouldn't, at least at first. Too easy to get the effects mixed up or confounded.
> It's good for focus, memory, immune system and side effects from Effexor withdrawal. Hope I can tolerate it.
Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.
> I just read the following on Picamilon (while looking for info on it's differing effects at different dosages):
>
> "Picamilone has a unique tranquilizing effect (the manifestation of action is inferior to diazepam); in this case picamilone does not cause a myorelaxation effect. The important property of picamilone is the ability to quickly restore mental and physical fitness for work, which was lost through overstress."
>
> Maybe that should be near the top of my list to try as well!! (Of course it would be either or, NOT combined with Ginkgo.) Here's the link that it came from on IAS' web site. I am taking into account that it comes from a source that is selling it:
>
> http://www.picamilone.org/picamilone-1.htm
>
> Here's another blurb about the dosage:
>
> "EFFECTS:
> The effects of Picamilon are usually felt quickly, with most people noticing impact within an hour. The effects of each dose last for about 4-6 hours. In small doses of 50mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a mild tranquilizing and mood stabilizing effect without sedation. In higher doses of 100mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a stimulating influence that is experienced as an increase in energy and endurance. The cognitive enhancing effects of Picamilon are cumulative and become more evident after several weeks of daily usage."
>
> The paragraph above is also from a site selling it. Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
>
> http://www.smart-drugs.net/info-picamilon.htmBeyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.
> > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
>
> Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.
> > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> >
> > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> >
> > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > >
> > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> >
> > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
>
> via glutathione:
> NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.
> > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
>
> I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
> > >
> > > I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all.
> >
> > Articles are suggestive to me, never definitive. I have never seen another recommendation to take that much phosphatidylserine, ever. PS is also a neurotransmitter. I would never take that much.
>
>
> Yes, you really do need to read a lot of dfferent things and then form your opinion.
> I forgot that it was also a neurotransmitter. Do you take it? If so, how much?Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.
> > > Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows?
> >
> > Soya lecithin is a good source of the three other phosphatides: phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, and phosphatidylethanolamine. You'll note that the chemical names reflect their structure. They contain choline, inositol and ethanolamine, respectively. The missing one of the soy-based tetrad is phosphatidylserine. They chemically switch one or another of the add-on bits to serine, and you get phosphatidlyserine.
> >
> > > Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
> >
> > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> >
>
> Cute!Yes!
> > The only possible benefit of natural source materials is that they may be impure. It happens that some of the impurities are natural cofactors for the target nutrient, so it's more like taking a multivitamin instead of a single nutrient. That is an accidental effect, and is not due to chemical differences in the nutrient itself.
> >
> > "Natural source" vitamin C happens to come with other impurities (what are called co-extractives), such as bioflavinoids. People had better results from natural vitamin C because they got other active chemicals, not because the vitamin C was better.
> >
> > Synthetic nutrients are generally very pure, because chemists are working with very pure chemicals as a matter of course.
>
> Yes, that's exactly my understanding of it. My description was clumsy. But the point is that those other active chemicals in the complex that was called phosphatidylserine are not in the substance that is now called phosphatidylserine. So is it as useful? Is it worth the expense?I don't really know. I don't know how they go about purifying PS from animal tissue.
> >
> > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
>
> Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"To the point, non?
> > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> >
> > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
>
>
> I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.
Still, if I can afford them some day, I'll likely do the research, and do the experiment(s).
> > Such is the nature of the beast. There are many many pseudo-scientists and poseurs in the alternative field.
>
> Yes, with no regulating committees to review them. Then add on all of the people trying to sell things and the claims they make, and you have an environment in which you have to be very careful and skeptical in whatever you read.The regulatory committees are so evidence-based, that accepted folk use might not ever meet the scientific threshold, too. Cuts both ways. One advantage I have, I suppose, is that my BS-detector has a good database to consult.
> > > I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
> >
> > It was a strange mix of both, for me, if I recall correctly. Messed with my sleep.
> >
>
> You do have a terrible time with that, don't you?Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
> > That amount of licorice is trivial. I wonder why companies add in those little bits of this and that? <shrug>
>
> So that those who don't know enough will be impressed with the long list of ingredients in the drink or supplement and purchase them. Must work enough 'cuz they keep doing it. Some times I'll see products with tons of ingredients and yet none of them in any strength to do very much. The entire product is useless. "Caveat Emptor" as they say.Indeed. Caveat placebo.
> > That's where the patience comes in, Kara. You have to push sensibly. I look at each day, the demands for that day, and my energy budget. I have to balance the energy books for that day. If I have to dip into "savings", my energy reserves, I have to recognize the risk involved (i.e. future opportunities for doing so). If I run the account into the red, I fall down, go boom.
> >
>
> Do you really? I've never thought about it that way. I wouldn't even know where to begin to do that. I'd have to know how much energy I'd have available each day and I don't know that. It's not stable in my case.I think you *do* know that. I just think you haven't listened quietly enough. It's not a stable parameter, and that's why it is so important. When you go, "Oh geez, I'm really going to have to push myself to do the dishes today.", where do you think that concept comes from? You've asked yourself if you're up for it. You can become more conscious of the assessment process. What I have described is now innate for me. I'm not perfect at it. I make mistakes. But it is a very useful construct for me.
> > > I know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).
> >
> > Excellent!Just remember, falling down and going boom is an outcome you can't afford, no matter what other things there are that you can't afford.
> > > How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you.
> >
> > Yes, it was. I know that I can sleep better, in a quiet environment. My own is noisy, and with the physical contrast between the two circumstances, I now know that I either have to move (I hate moving), or find a way to block the noise. I just sent away for a white noise generator. We'll see if that helps.
>
> It should help. You could also try a loud fan. I have been using a loud fan as my white noise generator for many years. I can't stand sleeping without it. The minute i hear it, a sense of calm and euphoria (seriously) comes over me. I can't tell you how much I love it. I always shop around for the noisiest fans. People think I'm crazy (for more reasons than just this one, however). I can't stand it when fans advertise as "whisper quiet". What the hell good is that??? Air conditioning noise is even better - pure nirvana.Ya, but I need noisier than I have....so...I bought this probably way over-priced artifically noisy mini-fan. We'll see.
> Glad there was no need for the bone marrow biopsy!
>
> - Relieved in LA:-) <you know that one, right?>
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:51:43
In reply to Re: NADH Co-Q10 » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:50:19
> > CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.
>
> I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.There is a fair amount of CoQ10 in your food. It's in both meat and vegetables. Purifying it is what makes it so expensive. You may not need extra, ya know?
> > Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.
>
> With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)Yes.
> > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > >
> > > > Lar
> > >
> > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> >
> > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> >
>
> I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.I'm serious about the dose. Some people need that much, or more, to feel the effect. Thinking you need an atom bomb is a rather limiting perception.
> > > Be well and prosper,
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> > You too. We will, you know.
> >
> > Lar
>
> I don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
>
> -KAhhh, the underpinnings of faith arise. I wish I knew an emoticon for Buddha's smile.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
> You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htmThat website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
> Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
So for energy, Adrenal Fatigue and cognitive function, it's all about the mitochondria (and the adrenals of course)?
> > > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
> >
>>
> Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.Good, then I'm even less worried about its effect on adrenal fatigue. (I cut out stuff above so I'm trying to figure out if your yin, yang comment referred to selegiline or ginkgo. I think it's the latter, right?)
re:Picamilon you wrote:
> Beyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
SMI2Le.biz (what does that stand for, anyway?)sells it as well. I'll have to compare prices.
You obviously feel that these places sell quality stuff, right? It's a little scary to me when it doesn't have a name with a good track record on the label. (Not that that guarantees purity either.)
> I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.That's such a shame how much tougher it is to get things in Canada. What part of Canada are you in, BTW?
> > > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> >
> > Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.
>
> I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO! No, Ive actually hit the books on this one. I just can't get a sense of how critical this one is. I think, since it's so expensive, that I'm going to leave it off of the original plan unless I can find it in bulk on one of the two sites I've mentioned. I can try it later as an add-in and judge from there.
> > > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> > >
> > > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> > >
> > > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > > >
> > > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> > >
> > > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
> >
> > via glutathione:
> > NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.
>
> That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.Pretty incredible stuff.
> > > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
> >
> > I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.
>
> I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
>
> Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
I like the word "geekazoid". Have to remember that one.
> Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.Do you get in bulk as well or do you pay a small fortune for it prepackaged?
> > > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> > >
> >
> > Cute!
>
> Yes!
>(If you do say so yourself!)
> > > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
> >
> > Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"
>
> To the point, non?mais oui (Since you're Canadian, are you fluent in French?)
> > > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> > >
> > > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
> >
> >
> > I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.
>
> I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.I hear ya. (scared of what's in YOUR brain that is)
> Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
>Yes, something I think of as the Elvis syndrome because I heard about how many uppers he'd take during the day to keep going and then he'd have to take a ton of downers at night to knock himself out.
Well, hope your new white noise fan works for you.
Kara
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.