Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 2:30:05
> > His faculty website is still not working. :-/ (that's a grumpy face, Kara)
>
> Are you making some of these up or is that really an accepted representation?You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htm
> How does everybody know all of the symbols? Is there a list somewhere?
Sorry, I should have pasted it here. ;-) <winky face>
> Perhaps if I had developed this Internet forum addiction years ago, I'd know all of this but being a newbie, I'm really in the dark (in more ways than one).
I seem to like that you are in the dark, Kara. ;->
>
> > However, some of his work is available elsewhere.
> >
> > http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2003/5935/5935.html
> >
> > http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/4393/e/1/T/CFIDS_FM/
> >
> > Here's one based on his work:
> > http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/chronic_fatigue_syndrome.pdf
> >
> > Don't be worried about whether Multiple Chemical Sensitivity applies to you or not. The underlying biochemistry is the same. It just expresses itself differently in different people.
> >
>
> Thanks. I'll check them out this weekend. One thing that's confusing is trying to figure out what pertains and what doesn't when he's gearing his talk to a different, but in someways related, topic. I may end up favoring certain supplements when I should be favoring others.Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
> > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > >
> > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
>
> This is high on the list now (unless I start taking selegiline. Don't know if you can mix them?)I wouldn't, at least at first. Too easy to get the effects mixed up or confounded.
> It's good for focus, memory, immune system and side effects from Effexor withdrawal. Hope I can tolerate it.
Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.
> I just read the following on Picamilon (while looking for info on it's differing effects at different dosages):
>
> "Picamilone has a unique tranquilizing effect (the manifestation of action is inferior to diazepam); in this case picamilone does not cause a myorelaxation effect. The important property of picamilone is the ability to quickly restore mental and physical fitness for work, which was lost through overstress."
>
> Maybe that should be near the top of my list to try as well!! (Of course it would be either or, NOT combined with Ginkgo.) Here's the link that it came from on IAS' web site. I am taking into account that it comes from a source that is selling it:
>
> http://www.picamilone.org/picamilone-1.htm
>
> Here's another blurb about the dosage:
>
> "EFFECTS:
> The effects of Picamilon are usually felt quickly, with most people noticing impact within an hour. The effects of each dose last for about 4-6 hours. In small doses of 50mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a mild tranquilizing and mood stabilizing effect without sedation. In higher doses of 100mg three times per day, Picamilon provides a stimulating influence that is experienced as an increase in energy and endurance. The cognitive enhancing effects of Picamilon are cumulative and become more evident after several weeks of daily usage."
>
> The paragraph above is also from a site selling it. Here's the rest of the article if you're interested:
>
> http://www.smart-drugs.net/info-picamilon.htmBeyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.
> > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
>
> Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.
> > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> >
> > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> >
> > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > >
> > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> >
> > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
>
> via glutathione:
> NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.
> > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
>
> I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
> > >
> > > I think it was in the adrenal fatigue article you recommended to me to take 800 mg. of this per day. That would be about one month's income for me. I can't even begin to imagine ... I just wonder if it's worth taking it at all.
> >
> > Articles are suggestive to me, never definitive. I have never seen another recommendation to take that much phosphatidylserine, ever. PS is also a neurotransmitter. I would never take that much.
>
>
> Yes, you really do need to read a lot of dfferent things and then form your opinion.
> I forgot that it was also a neurotransmitter. Do you take it? If so, how much?Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.
> > > Are you familiar with the controversy over it's effectiveness now that it is made from soy rather than derived from cows?
> >
> > Soya lecithin is a good source of the three other phosphatides: phosphatidylcholine, phosphatidylinositol, and phosphatidylethanolamine. You'll note that the chemical names reflect their structure. They contain choline, inositol and ethanolamine, respectively. The missing one of the soy-based tetrad is phosphatidylserine. They chemically switch one or another of the add-on bits to serine, and you get phosphatidlyserine.
> >
> > > Supposedly the chemical structure is not the same as it was. Dr. Sahelian thinks it's effectiveness now is questionable and he says it's not worth the expense for something that may not be doing anything for you. What do you think?
> >
> > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> >
>
> Cute!Yes!
> > The only possible benefit of natural source materials is that they may be impure. It happens that some of the impurities are natural cofactors for the target nutrient, so it's more like taking a multivitamin instead of a single nutrient. That is an accidental effect, and is not due to chemical differences in the nutrient itself.
> >
> > "Natural source" vitamin C happens to come with other impurities (what are called co-extractives), such as bioflavinoids. People had better results from natural vitamin C because they got other active chemicals, not because the vitamin C was better.
> >
> > Synthetic nutrients are generally very pure, because chemists are working with very pure chemicals as a matter of course.
>
> Yes, that's exactly my understanding of it. My description was clumsy. But the point is that those other active chemicals in the complex that was called phosphatidylserine are not in the substance that is now called phosphatidylserine. So is it as useful? Is it worth the expense?I don't really know. I don't know how they go about purifying PS from animal tissue.
> >
> > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
>
> Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"To the point, non?
> > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> >
> > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
>
>
> I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.
Still, if I can afford them some day, I'll likely do the research, and do the experiment(s).
> > Such is the nature of the beast. There are many many pseudo-scientists and poseurs in the alternative field.
>
> Yes, with no regulating committees to review them. Then add on all of the people trying to sell things and the claims they make, and you have an environment in which you have to be very careful and skeptical in whatever you read.The regulatory committees are so evidence-based, that accepted folk use might not ever meet the scientific threshold, too. Cuts both ways. One advantage I have, I suppose, is that my BS-detector has a good database to consult.
> > > I may try Ashwagandha later on after my four months on the maca but I think it's sedating rather than energizing, correct?
> >
> > It was a strange mix of both, for me, if I recall correctly. Messed with my sleep.
> >
>
> You do have a terrible time with that, don't you?Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
> > That amount of licorice is trivial. I wonder why companies add in those little bits of this and that? <shrug>
>
> So that those who don't know enough will be impressed with the long list of ingredients in the drink or supplement and purchase them. Must work enough 'cuz they keep doing it. Some times I'll see products with tons of ingredients and yet none of them in any strength to do very much. The entire product is useless. "Caveat Emptor" as they say.Indeed. Caveat placebo.
> > That's where the patience comes in, Kara. You have to push sensibly. I look at each day, the demands for that day, and my energy budget. I have to balance the energy books for that day. If I have to dip into "savings", my energy reserves, I have to recognize the risk involved (i.e. future opportunities for doing so). If I run the account into the red, I fall down, go boom.
> >
>
> Do you really? I've never thought about it that way. I wouldn't even know where to begin to do that. I'd have to know how much energy I'd have available each day and I don't know that. It's not stable in my case.I think you *do* know that. I just think you haven't listened quietly enough. It's not a stable parameter, and that's why it is so important. When you go, "Oh geez, I'm really going to have to push myself to do the dishes today.", where do you think that concept comes from? You've asked yourself if you're up for it. You can become more conscious of the assessment process. What I have described is now innate for me. I'm not perfect at it. I make mistakes. But it is a very useful construct for me.
> > > I know but I do have to become functional soon. I'm running out of money. I think from your responses, though, that I'm further along in deciding a program to start with now. I have a few more things to think through. Then I'll start on it (and add on and change things as the experiment develops).
> >
> > Excellent!Just remember, falling down and going boom is an outcome you can't afford, no matter what other things there are that you can't afford.
> > > How about YOU? How are you doing? Hopefully the vacation was good for you.
> >
> > Yes, it was. I know that I can sleep better, in a quiet environment. My own is noisy, and with the physical contrast between the two circumstances, I now know that I either have to move (I hate moving), or find a way to block the noise. I just sent away for a white noise generator. We'll see if that helps.
>
> It should help. You could also try a loud fan. I have been using a loud fan as my white noise generator for many years. I can't stand sleeping without it. The minute i hear it, a sense of calm and euphoria (seriously) comes over me. I can't tell you how much I love it. I always shop around for the noisiest fans. People think I'm crazy (for more reasons than just this one, however). I can't stand it when fans advertise as "whisper quiet". What the hell good is that??? Air conditioning noise is even better - pure nirvana.Ya, but I need noisier than I have....so...I bought this probably way over-priced artifically noisy mini-fan. We'll see.
> Glad there was no need for the bone marrow biopsy!
>
> - Relieved in LA:-) <you know that one, right?>
Lar
poster:Larry Hoover
thread:359642
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20040815/msgs/380779.html