Posted by Tamar on June 23, 2005, at 17:52:08
In reply to Re: Confusing Session (long) ***TRIGGERS*** » Tamar, posted by Daisym on June 23, 2005, at 15:26:34
> I'd like to hear the rest of your thoughts. I think I can take them.
Well, since I posted earlier I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s not really so counter-intuitive as all that. But this is what I was thinking about csa and rewriting the story:
Naturally, a little girl wants to marry her daddy. But he doesn’t marry her, even though he makes her do things that are appropriate in marital relationships. He doesn’t give her age-appropriate sexual pleasure ( because only she can give herself age-appropriate sexual pleasure); instead he foists a frightening adult experience on her. He doesn’t allow her to merge with him; instead he dominates her. He doesn’t let her have an honest relationship with her mommy (because he makes her keep a secret); instead he keeps mommy for himself.
When she has a mature body with adult sexual responses, her experience of arousal won’t be the same as a child’s. But she might still want to rewrite the story with a man who will match his sexual interest in her with an emotional commitment to her; a man who will treat her as a partner instead of as a junior; a man who will allow her to be open about her needs and who will do his best to satisfy them, instead of simply satisfying his own needs.
But it’s extra-confusing because at the same time she wants to sit on his lap while he reads to her.
I imagine that having confusing feelings of transference for a therapist might involve wanting to feel sexually safe both as a child and as an adult. So perhaps the child part needs to know that it’s OK to want to marry him and it’s OK to experience physical pleasure with him that doesn’t involve sexual touching; her sexual touching is best done by herself. And the adult part wants to feel sexually safe in an environment of mutual attraction, knowing he has made a commitment to love her, and to treat her with the respect that comes from common humanity, and to allow her the freedom to be honest about her sexual needs.
I hope that makes some sense.
> What you said makes a lot of sense, about wanting to rewrite your story. I want to think about it and mull it over in my head. Because it answers the question for me of "how could *I* knowing how dangerous those feelings are, want this?" The more I try to understand all of this, the more I don't seem to want this.
Yeah. That’s the weird part. It feels so very dangerous, and yet it can feel so appealing. I think it touches some very deep emotional conflicts about what we want and what we don’t want.
> I think I should try to ask about the touching stuff. Maybe when he gets back from his vacation. Because I've been thinking I'd like to hug him good-bye but then I'm afraid he will "notice" how unattractive I am if I get that close to him. And I'm sure that I'm talking about physical stuff but I'm equally sure I'm talking about other stuff too. Somehow I guess I think I will contaminate him.
The idea of contaminating someone by touching them is something I can relate to. I sometimes felt so very dirty that that I thought merely being in the room with my therapist would make him feel icky.
If thinking about hugging your therapist goodbye is a new thought, I really think it’s worth discussing with him. In my case I wanted to touch my therapist so desperately because the idea of his touch symbolised my acceptability. (I always think of that bible story of Jesus and the ritually unclean woman in Mark 5.) If he could touch me, perhaps he didn’t really think I was as disgusting as I imagined. I’ve said it before, but I’ll say it again because I like saying it… when he shook my hand at the end of our final session it was such a relief!
>For a long time I felt so young and small that I didn't want to get close enough to gage his real size. Or have it brought back into reality. I needed him to be big enough to protect me. Now I feel like I'm so big that I would squash him. Again, has nothing to do with my real size, because I'd guess I'm 4 or 5 inches shorter than he is. (OK, OK, I am a bit wider.) Touch is fraught with peril for me. I hate to be touched. My friend who is a therapist wants me to have physical therapy so I will let go of my tension in my neck and begin to associate touch with relaxation. I have another friend who goes to holding therapy. The therapist literally holds her head and neck. She said she cries the whole time. (She experienced severe csa.)
I know what you mean about the size thing. I’ve sometimes felt tiny compared with my therapist, though he’s only about an inch taller than me, and he’s considerably slimmer!
It does sound as if some kind of touch could be therapeutic for you. I know nothing about physical therapy or holding therapy, but I imagine that touch with someone you can trust could be a very good thing.
> I love what you said about your phallic safety issue. I guess because I have boys that part of the anatomy doesn't bother me much. I'm much more hung up on my own parts and what is showing and not showing. The more I think about this, the more I'm getting clear that I'm afraid of my own ability to be seductive. I think I'm not at all, but what if I am wrong? Most women are proud of that ability -- I think it turns good men into bad people. I'll have to think about this some more. Maybe I want my therapist to want the woman in me but because I'm pretty regressed still with him, this feels really, really wrong.
I have a boy now too, and he’s still a baby. I’m not scared of his penis; it’s so tiny and cute! But adult penises are a different matter.
Yeah, the ability to be seductive can be frightening. I tend to wear low-cut blouses because I have unfeasibly large breasts and I just look matronly in clothes with high necks. But I feel very uncomfortable if I think people notice my body. I tend to think I’m so unattractive that people won’t even notice my cleavage.
When you say ‘it turns good men into bad people’ I feel so sad. I so desperately want to believe that when good men are attracted to women they’re thinking, “I’d love to please her,” instead of, “How can I make her put out?” Not all men are good men, I suppose. But there *are* good men.
I can imagine that there is a lot of conflict between wanting your therapist to want you as a woman and wanting your therapist to care for you as a little girl. I suppose it’s possible that he can do both. I mean, he can care for you as a little girl without wanting that little girl sexually, and he can find you attractive as a woman without imagining you as a little girl. It’s possible for him to see the two possibilities completely separately. Maybe your confusion comes from the csa, where adult experience is combined with a child’s identity. I think the same confusion exists in the minds of people who perpetrate abuse. Maybe the goal is to be simultaneously integrated in your identity and aware of the separation of your ego states, if that makes sense.
> Thanks Tamar, you've given me some real insights to myself. I sooo appreciate the time you are taking to hash through this with me. I hope it isn't too painful to retell these details. I'll hug you in a safe way -- ((((Tamar))))
And I appreciate your thoughtful replies. I am finding this very helpful too. Thank you for the safe hugs. Here are some for you: ((((daisy))))
poster:Tamar
thread:516928
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050622/msgs/517630.html