Posted by Racer on February 1, 2004, at 15:32:35
In reply to My therapist sometimes refuses to answer me, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2004, at 9:11:53
(Since I haven't been to this Babble Board long, you all may not know I ramble and rant. After this, though, you'll be forewarned.)
I've read all the posts, think there's a lot of good thought in this thread. It's hard to think of what I really want to say, so I'm going to cut and paste and respond to some of what's already been said. More rambly, but maybe more clear? We'll see...
From gardenergirl:
I think fallsfall made a lot of good points. I just wanted to add something. This is a self-selected group of people on this board. We are here to ask and answer questions. It makes sense that there would be a lot of questions about boundary crossings, because when it happens, it's confusing. You wonder if your sense of it is correct, and you want other opinions. When T's maintain boundaries, there's really nothing to question.
Response:That makes a lot of sense. All of us here belong to a specific subset of the larger group of All Those In Therapy. We're the ones who're willing to discuss these things on a public bulletin board behind our board names, and disclose personal details to strangers in the safety of semi-anonymity, and we're all computer literate enough to have found this board and figured out how to use it. We may also be more introspective, and thus more likely to question boundary crossing and other therapeutic issues.
From Karen_Kay:
You can make believe that you have some sort of "friendship" or relationship and you divulge all of you feelings to a stranger. A stranger who helps you sort things out. But in reality, there really isn't a friendship or realionship at all. Sure, you may be the favorite client, but there really isn't hope for much else in the future.
Response:
I don't see it that way. I see my relationship with my therapist as a real relationship, within preordained boundaries. I'll never invite her to dinner or a movie, I'll never babysit her kids, we won't get together for lunch, but it is a real relationship nonetheless. It's just that it exists within a limited set of boundaries to which we've agreed in advance. Does that make sense?
OOOH! It's a Formally Structured Relationship, how's that? I think that's what I'm trying to say.
More from KK:
And what's the harm in feeling special? Isn't that what everyone wants? I hope that he makes all of his clients believe that they are his favorite clients.
R:
Absolutely! And here's something from my Real World Experiences, that I think supports it. I used to teach computer classes, and I used to teach horseback riding lessons. Both involve a student-teacher relationship that somewhat parallels the therapist-therapee relationship. I know that a lot of my students wanted to believe they were special to me, my Favorite Student. And you know what? You wanna hear what makes it so peculiar? Most of them really and truly and sincerely and genuinely *were* my Favorite Student. Simultaneously, each of them was my favorite, I couldn't possibly have chose between them. I hope that's true of most good therapists, too.
From terrics:
We often talk about her family [many times she ties the discussion in with a problem I am having???], her hobbies,her mother [which again she ties in with problems I have with mine,]her past problems with drugs[I do not have a drug problem.] She has hugged me without my expecting it, and she has said she loves me.[that was when I was considering suicide.]
RR:
I absolutely possitively think that that's both boundary crossing and unhealthy for any sort of therapeutic relationship. It shocks me so much I can't even think of anything else to say about it, beyond that.
From fallsfalls:
I think that the profession has absolutes (i.e no sex). I think each therapist should know their own personal absolutes (For one, don't tell patients their marital, parental, sexual orientation status or age. For a different one, all of those may be OK to talk about, but they don't want to talk about things that happened in their childhood). Once those rules are established, I think that the therapists need to use their judgement every single day with every single patient to see if a particular response will be helpful to the client.
RR:
Absolute agreement from the peanut gallery, and a kudo for expressing it so well.
Thank you.
From Dinah:
But is it in our best interests? Really? Does it lead us to think that we have a different sort of relationship with our therapists than we really do? Does it affect our behaviors with them in an artificial way? Does it burden us with knowledge that we shouldn't be burdened with in a relationship that is entirely for our own benefit, with monetary compensation as the only benefit to the therapist. Are the rules really bad? Is it really good for therapists to bend them, or do we just like it?
RR:
Heheheh, that really is the question, ain't it? It's a good question, and one I think is worth exploring directly with our Ts. Are we both on the same page regarding this issue, at least, and what is the benefit to the patient from using this boundary or that one?
Personally, I want to know enough about my therapist to get a sense of what he/she will understand. Most of the information I perceive myself as needing to make that assessment can be found in the T's body language, clothing, speech patterns, etc. The few remaining, I may ask, or I may not, but if I do ask them I always preface it with a lead in like, "You know, I'd feel better discussing this issue with you if I were sure you had some experience or background that would allow you to understand it from my perspective. In order to reassure me that you will understand, I'd like to ask you [insert question here] If you're not willing to answer the question, that's OK, as long as we can discuss why I asked it and why you don't feel it's appropriate to answer." That way, when I do ask a question outside the boundaries we've established, something productive still comes out.
On the other hand, when I'm in the worst of a depression, often I just hold back without asking the questions or discussing the issues at all. Then, getting anything out of me is like pulling teeth.
(Digression: one therapist I saw briefly did tell me a personal story once, though: it was our last session, because I was moving away. One of the topics we'd worked on was my self image problems, and that I look so different from the rest of my family. One of those differences is that I have small feet for my height, and everyone else has enormously long feet. The T told me about her father owning a shoe store, and bringing shoes home for her. He knew that women with small feet were considered more attractive, and that most women wanted to have smaller feet, so he'd switch the labels in the shoes for her. She didn't know what size shoe she really wore until after college, when she discovered her feet were two sizes larger than the labels in the shoes from her father. That crossed the boundaries by my standards, but I'm still glad she told me!)
Back to Dinah's original post:
Did Clinton answering the boxers vs. briefs question really inspire trust?
When our son asks how much money we make, we answer that we make enough money to take care of him properly. That's all he needs to know. To know more is to put grown up things on his shoulders. And I think there is something trustworthy about a therapist who can do the same. Who can realize that there are things that we may want to know, but that might burden us if we knew. Even if it's not positive they'd burden us, even if we don't think they'd burden us, if it's possible they'd burden us, it's their job to have the strength to refuse to answer.
RR:
I agree and disagree. The Clinton observation is a direct hit. That part not only hits the mark, but it also gives a very, very concise illustration of the debate: does knowing something totally unrelated to the matter at hand add anything to the process?
The part about not wanting personal information from a T or pdoc, that one I struggle with -- fortunately I can come here and tug at it with you guys -- because some of my own unique pathology really is unique, aside from being unique in a larger sense. I have some physical problems that impact the psychological problems, and that makes it harder to define the limits of treatment in a lot of ways. On top of that, I have a lot of information that I want placed in context for reassurance, and that leads to larger issues of my need for reassurance, and all of it needs to be done without allowing my fluency to deflect the real emotions. For example, I've worked with animals on and off most of my life, give shots, question everything any vet tells me, loved Bio in school, and have read a great deal about science and biology and medicine and especially about issues surrounding depression. When I walk into a doctor's office, I want to get at least as much information as I'd get from a vet. In animals, the first rule is engraved in stone: when a behavior changes, FIRST rule out physical causes. If a doctor denies that as a good idea for people, too, I have a really hard time trusting that doctor. (OK, that's going off target, so I'll get back on track. Suffice it to say, I'm a real pain in the @$$ as a patient!)
So, I do want some reassurance that the T or pdoc is someone I can trust, and sometimes the only way I feel safe is asking a personal question. I try to frame it within the larger context, and I try to remain open to the idea that I may not really need to know the answer. Sometimes that's enough.
Nevertheless, I wouldn't ask my pdoc if he fantasizes about me, because I think it would be quite damaging to both of us. (You only know me through my typing skills or lack thereof. A lot of men find me very frightening in person.) I might, however, be inclined to discuss the question of disclosing to each other our fantasies. Does that make sense?
Oh, dear me, look what I've gone and done. Ranted and Raved for way too long. Here it is, for what it's worth. If anyone has any questions, please submit them in triplicate using the official form...
poster:Racer
thread:308062
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040131/msgs/308188.html