Posted by ElaineM on October 24, 2006, at 10:50:09
In reply to Re: I don't get pro ana ***SA, Ana trigger***** » ElaineM, posted by Deneb on October 22, 2006, at 17:17:49
>Thank-you for sharing Elaine. I understand a little better now. I just recently experienced the effects of a lack of glucose on the brain. I went on a very low carb ketogenic diet for 5 days and I started to feel some brain fog...not so good for studying.
>I realize now that Ana is a very serious illness and is definitely NOT a way to lose weight. I also realize that a person cannot *become* anorexic, either they are or they aren't.
***No it's not a *way* to lose weight, but very often it's a tragic *result*. A certain mental preset, combined with strict dieting is sometimes all it takes to trigger the anorexic mindset -- the rest follows. It's like when two weather systems can combine to create something terribly worse, much more destructive than either are seperately. Actually, people DO *become* anorexic, the problem is that people often don't *see* themselves crossing that line. People don't intentionally become mentally ill -- true -- but there is often a fine-line where people are teetering in the inbetween. ANd you just want to pull the person back - save the time and the struggle and the suffering. But perhaps what you really meant was that people can't be "a little bit" anorexic. I think anorexic is used synonimously alot with skinny, thin, strict/obsessive dieter, picky eater..... alot of stuff. It's kinda like saying a person who's having a random bad day is in a depression. I worry that casual usage of psychiatric diagnosis' in place of a plain old adjectives or whatnot, kinda mocks the people who are suffering from the actual thing. [I'm not directing all this part with you you know, right? This is just one of the things that I'll get up on a soap box for -- It's too important to me ]
>> Personally, I think sometimes that pro-ana sites are used by people as a way to find a community to be a part of.
>I see that too now. It must be awfully lonely being anorexic and having no one understand you.
***Or it could be the other way: It must be awfully lonely being lonely, and hoping to find someone to understand you by apprenticing anorexia.
Or: It must be awfully lonely for the person who thinks that their only hope of someone identifying their pain is by wearing it on their body.
There's so many more variations.>> ((((((Deneb)))))) even if it were true, as your mom says, that you need to lose 10lbs, then you really wouldn't be "really fat" right now.
>When I'm thin I will know it and I will maintain my weight.
****Completely common attitude, and also famous last words. Guess what *I* said when going down? I rationalized, "I just want to see XXXlbs....I just want to see 5 less.....okay when I hit XXXlbs I'll stop.....I'm so close to it, I wonder if I could drop just 5 more, it's only 5......okay, if I ever get to XX then I'll know I'm not in control anymore and I'll ask for help..." Guess what thousands of others are probably saying right now too? It's soooo common it's both heartbreaking and maddening to witness the same old lines in someone else. I'm just wondering, but was it a sentence like that that got you kinda kicked off that other website? I know you likely didn't mean this, but I'll tell you how someone who has AN *could* maybe hear it. "Ya, I know I sound like I'm on the same path, but I'm gonna do it right" It could sound a little like "...ya but I'll handle it, I'm better than you." Like if someone who smashed their car speeding and ruined their legs, was trying to convince another to stop doing the same, and then the person says, "I'll be okay, I just *won't* drive into something". Gee really!? D* I realize absolutely NOTHING I say will dissuade you, but if I didn't try and say something I'd feel like an a$$hole - like I let myself down.
>>I've done eating disorder re-feeding treatments three times (with the longest one lasting 6months) and they always made everybody (even if you were only 5 lbs under your highest "lowest healthy weight") go on "weight gain" calorie levels to reach a BMI of 19.
>I imagine re-feedings are not fun. I understand in some cases they do re-feedings against one's will?
***It's rather degrading actually -- but a necessity (not to say that I don't have criticisms about how it's done) Yes, it's possible to be forced, but it's not common. I believe it's quite hard for an order to be upheld even before it gets to a legal hearing-- they have to prove death is imminent, not probable, or possible, or eventual. I'm not sure how much harder or easier the process is if a relative is attempting to become the personal decision maker. It wasn't my parents who intervened in my case, it was a pdoc. So I don't know.
>>Deneb, what's going on? Why is weight becoming so important to you?
>I dunno. I just want to look better.
>I feel like if I can control my eating and make it to 95 pounds it will be an accomplishment for me and right now I really need some accomplishments.***D you've set up my response for me - One sentence contradicts the other. I'm sure you didn't intend to do that - do you see how much risk that suggests. Why weight? Why not deal in a currency that has value. Why not be accomplished by working on improving upon the diagnosis you already have (whatever that may be)? I also recall hearing that you do well in school - Why not focus on that more? Or, you once wanted to volunteer somewhere, why not make that the possible accomplishment. Are you kinda hoping your mom sees it as an accomplishment? I don't know your mom and all, but from my own exp., mom's complaining tends to just shift to something else whenever any change is made. I think when people are critical of others, it's not the *thing* they're complaining about that means something to them -- it's the *process* of complaining. My parents used to want me to play piano well - when I did that they complained I didn't have a job - when I got a respectable one my mom complained that my hair was too long and straggly.... [She didn't ever stop ;-) Even still, whenever the opportunity arrises ] ...ever experience the same?
I'm not saying every family reacts the same, but such an overt mental illness as anorexia is very hard for alot of parents to take. And it doesn't always bring caring (though that's not why I spiralled). My parents couldn't cope, felt very angry and defensive, and completely withdrew. They still hate me for doing that to them. They've never been more unsupportive of me than when I was ill. Alot of relationships can't cope with the strain of an ED -- alot of significant others can't compete with it. It's really sad.
You do get some compliments at first -- they stop very quickly. You want to know what we were prasied for as being our "accomplishments" once landing in the treatment that we never intended to aim for in the first place? We actually got a round of applause and hugged each other when after weeks and weeks an AN finally had a bowel movement -- Yep that's the stuff you get gold stars for during ward meetings. Our accomplishments became: adding chocolate syrup to our milk when we didn't have to!, cutting our meat into 10 pieces instead of 50!, ticking off pecan pie on the menu instead of jello!, tapering down motility meds!......congrats!....... how embarassing.....how far from "You've lost X amount of lbs, what an accomplishment."
>I sort of got kicked off the site so it doesn't matter anymore. The people there don't want me going down the same path they went through. They said they wouldn't wish an ED on their worst enemy.
*** No it DOES matter - you matter. I wouldn't have responded just to defend or condemn pro-ana sites. THe fact that you're allowed on that site anymore or not doesn't influence my concern for you at all. I'm glad though that you can see that they banned you to try and send you a message that would sink in. But I think they were also self-protecting. May I be honest? The part that I could finding upsetting is that, to me, you have a duality to your posts that I haven't seen in people until they were already trying to recover. You are aware of, and use bio-physiological terminology like low ketogenic diet (my goodness girl you were even able to explain Kwashiorkor syndrome!) - you know what the consequences of messing with nutrition are. You've heard personal accounts - told personally to you, for you. I think even your pdoc said to stop. Yet you still adopt all the "ignorant dieter's" (ignorant not as derogatory, just as unaware) traits: this importance of numbers, of restricting food, seeing bones. bingeing etc. It's scary to see someone bet their health that they can see forward down the path better than others can see back. And I worry that if you did get sick if would be harder for you to forgive yourself because you have had people telling from the very beginning how to avoid hardship. But I suppose this is just one of those things were you've got to let others make their own mistakes. If you want to read more studies on physiology do a search on the Keyes study.
>Thanks Elaine. Are you better now?
*** Doesn't work that way either. I mean, I'm sure there are random exceptions, but I'm very confident in saying that most ED sufferers NEVER get better - as in never get back to normal. Though maybe we define "better" differently. Often, the only thing that gets better is someone's weight. But you can't turn your mind back to before. It's like saudering tinted shades to your head. I'll ALWAYS see food differently. That's something I had NO idea would happen. I assumed going into treatment the first time that once they helped me start eating again, I'd just start to eat normally, like I did before I was sick. Food gets ruined forever. I'll never eat another piece of my own birthday cake again - or at least not without feeling like scum. My view of sizes, of myself, of "acceptable", of the relative importance of shape, will ALWAYS be skewed. Forever. I'll never know what it means to eat without analyzing, and critisizing, and taking out everything enjoyable or sociable from food, or food environments. I know I'll never be able to use a food scale or a bathroom scale in a normal way ever again. I'm not saying people don't re-adopt healthy ways of taking care of themselves -- I can eat properly, but it's a constant fight. Normal behaviours that others may do without realizing will never be second-nature to me anymore. People learn to fight the voice in their head, but it rarely ever disappears.
Yes, I am at a weight higher than I have been in years, so I am "better" that way. But "better", for me, for many others, will never mean physically healthy. I do have a seperate (that i don't mention) medical illness but if you want to know the AN collateral damage, even though I'm "better" now:
-Osteoporosis (I'm only a few years older than you. If I fell down the stairs it'd be dangerous).
-My bowels almost completely shut down. I'll never *not* be on laxatives (and anti-dia.) and this is a few *years* since I was last low. [you don't even want to know the rest]
-I need to take motility meds to move food through my GI tract.
-Chronic acid-reflux.
-My teeth are horribly decalcified and I've recently been seeing the resulting root-canals appearing. (two years after becoming "better")
-I've f*cked up my hormone levels - my menstrual cycle exists (thank god) but it's very very "wonky" (to leave out the lovely details)- they can't tell me what this means in terms of being able to concieve.
-Severe insomnia (like, refered to a sleep clinic kind. This issue goes farther for me but I don't ever go into it) [longterm insomnia is more dangerous than some think, though I won't go into that here)
-I have brutal health anxiety now (which I didn't have before getting sick). But when you do f*cked up things to your body, it does weird f*cked up things back and then your already anxiety prone brian goes crazy trying to figure it all out.I won't mention the hair and skin etc....mini-side effects. Though that cr@p happens too, it's not as devastating (it can reverse).
And I won't go into how wildly unstable you can become mentally. Not just in an "I can't remember all the stuff for my seminar presentation" way - but an "I can't remember how to write cursive" , or "I can't figure out what bills and coins to give the cashier" way.
And this was all just from plain old severe starvation /malnutrition. I never exercised. I never took laxatives (until I was "better" - they are medically prescribed "safer" ones.) I tried to throw up three times in my life but never ever could, so I can't say any of the damage was from that.
And I was *only* "severely sick" for a few years (and not consecutive runs, ie. 6months well, 6 intreatment,...etc), and not while I was going through puberty.
It's not like I was wildly symptomatic for decades. And all this still happened. I'm not saying it all to get sympathy either. I did this to myself. I deserve the consequences - all of them.
The scary and sad thing is, I'm NOT the sensational, anomaly-like exception. Many get way "sicker" than I did. Many end up way worse than me. I'm the plain old, extrodinarily average example. I won't lie, there was one part of how I was when AN that was considered quite serious, but a misconception I fell for was that bad stuff only happens to the most extreme.Wanna know the worst part. I'd still -- after all that -- try and lose weight if I could. THAT'S how sick it makes a person and how much it stays with you - that's what it does you. That's disgusting to me. It's humiliating to say, but I still have those thoughts, so I figured it would only be fair to say it too.
Someone is gonna do what they want, when they want, because they want -- I'm not saying this cause I think it should be the reason you change your mind, or will make you do it. I find that ED's only postpone sh*t. I can't make you skip the middle part and go straight to working on the feelings you have of not having worth. But I'm offering some info, some ugly honesty, some personal evidence -- hoping that if nothing, you can feel that I care about this process you're undertaking. I mean, that's all I can do right. And that I wish you more than you think this will bring.
I don't know if I'll be able to contribute more (and not because I'm mad at you, or anyone else wanting to be smaller) but just cause it hurts my heart too much - whenever I look backwards regret is always there. (I'm not in a good place right now with other stuff too and it's hard to write anything that makes sense.) I can't even update my own thread right now, but I felt drawn too yours on this board. [and could it be possible for me to have written anymore than I did!!!! Jeez! ;-) ]
(((((Deneb)))))) Take care.
B-love, EL
poster:ElaineM
thread:695085
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/eating/20060628/msgs/697299.html