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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by Smeegle on December 8, 2004, at 15:03:45
In reply to Re: Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by lifeworthliving on December 8, 2004, at 0:05:16
FIND MY PASSON? I would love to! Just point me in the right direction and I'll be all over it. Is there a "passion" store where one can shop for something to be passionate about? Seriously , this is where I am stuck. It has been so long that I wouldn't even know where to start. I enrolled back in school after being out for 20+ years. I love being in school and the whole learning process. It's hardly a passion, just it's the closest thing I can lay claim to. (I figure if I am going to be working for a very long time I may as well try to get a degree and work in field that hopefully I will get more satisfaction from). Maybe it's just me, but I need something to look forward to. Something that I am working towards. A vacation, a life event or any type of personal experience. At this point, the only thing I have to look forward to is coming to work again tomorrow and the next day, and the day after that and so on. I also work a second job (to pay for school), so even when I am off, I am too tired to pursue any outside interests. Yet if I quit the second job, I can't afford school and would continue to be stuck in a meaningless, dead-end job. And hobbys require money. Not that we are poor, but money aint growing on trees where I live. It all comes right back to one thing, just exist. Do my time here on earth and hope for a better life next time around (if...but we won't go there. I can only deal with one life-time and will worry about the "after-life or my next life when/if that happens).
Smeegs
Posted by crushedout on December 8, 2004, at 18:59:13
In reply to Re: Is there really a point? What's the payoff? » lifeworthliving, posted by Smeegle on December 8, 2004, at 15:03:45
I agree, Smeegle: it's hard to find a "passion." I think in the meantime, it helps to focus on small pleasures, and to sprinkle a reasonable amount of them throughout your life. For me, that's animals, massages, haagen dasz mint chip, spending time with kids, music, some tv shows, sleeping, fleece blankets, hot baths. I'm sure there are others.
I also find being a nice human being and doing good deeds helps me feel like life has a tiny bit of meaning. So, I stop and ask people on the street if they need help when they look in distress, I tutor poor kids in reading and math, I say hi and smile at people on the bus. Little things that make my days seem more meaningful and sweeter. It's still really hard, but I think all this helps a little.
Posted by littleone on December 8, 2004, at 20:15:58
In reply to Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 7, 2004, at 22:17:14
It sounds like you're asking what's the meaning of life. People have been trying to answer that one since the dawn of time.
I could highly recommend Irvin Yalom's "Existential Psychotherapy". It's actually a text aimed towards T's, but I'd say it would be fine for most people. It is rather large, but you could just work your way through the areas that you are interested in.
I could also recommend Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search For Meaning". I didn't find it as helpful as Yalom's book, but it certainly is a very interesting read and you should get ideas from it here and there.
Also, I'm not sure if this is applicable to you or not, but the other thing to keep in mind is that I find that depression sucks the fun out of everything. I have a couple of activities that I know I love doing, but I can not muster any interest in them whatsoever while I'm under depression's dark cloud.
Posted by tryingtobewise on December 8, 2004, at 22:55:49
In reply to Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 7, 2004, at 22:17:14
Hi Smeegle ~
I totally get where you are coming from. In my own life, I continue to try to learn & remember the lesson that often feelings come *after* action is taken. Which sometimes seem counterintuitive. It seems like "serving" others is a sure-fire way to feel life has meaning. So even if you aren't currently inspired to do so, if you found a way to be of help or service to someone, or some group (i.e. kids, the elderly), feelings of meaning might just follow your action.
Congratulations on going back to school. Education of any kind is never a waste, regardless of whether or not it is used in one's career or vacation.
Best,
Kim
Posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 12:03:23
In reply to Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 7, 2004, at 22:17:14
I think there isn't much of a point. So I try not to think about it.
What makes it all worth it to me is the moments of joy. I try to find and/or create as many as possible.
I help old ladies with their groceries, help women with children on the bus, volunteer when asked. I am as kind as possible, kinder when I can be.
I try to make my passage through the world around me a pleasure for those I meet. I always look people in the eye.
I'm the nicest customer of the morning at the Starbucks, the lady who makes a funny face at a child in a passing stroller. I happily care for the neighbour's cat when they are out of town, and I might even vacuum their house while I'm at it.I stop to pet cats, laugh at dogs (they are natural comedians), I admire gardens, stop to watch an enormous, colourful butterfly linger on the only bush on a dusty downtown street. I want to SEE the world around me, even if at times I don't feel a part of it. I want to know what's there, want to see the faces, the colours, the shapes and sizes. The buildings, the streets, the sky, the faces.
I look for beauty. I look to see what else is there.
The times I'm just another grumpy human out for a walk, well I have to accept that I am not the Buddha, and that has to be ok, too. I get tired, hungry, lonely, angry...
And I let myself feel it all.
But as for the point? My advice is, try not to think about it.
Posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 12:59:21
In reply to payoff? » Smeegle, posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 12:03:23
You are all soooo right! I try not to let myself "go there" or dwell on it too much, but sometimes the black cloud persists and the sun just won't come out.
I do most of the things mentioned. Outwardly, I am a loving and giving person. The first one to help a person in need, lend a hand or ear, or perk up someone else's day. I go out of my way to make eye contact, smile and acknowledge people who otherwise in the course of their day would not have anyone say/do anything nice. I do it because I know what it is like to feel invisible. To feel lonely in a crowd. My cat is one of the few things I still find joy in. No matter how unloved and lonely I feel, he is always up for a little lap action (and a good brushing).
I was in a really, really dark place last night. Scary things seemed like a viable option. I read some good advice on a website that advised to give it 24 hours (a week, whatever...just don't act right now). More than likely the feelings will let up and be more bearable. They are...somewhat. Tonight I have my last final for the semester. I plan to get my Christmas shopping all done tonight as well (family all lives in other states so I shop online and just have it shipped). I numb my mind on TV. I know I watch too much, but it distracts me when I am thinking too much. Distraction can be a very good thing and tv is a vast wasteland of distraction.
No one in my life understands true depression. Sure they have been sad at one point or another in their lives, but none of them have ever experienced ongoing, unrelenting depression and how it wears down your resolve. I tried to explain to my husband that emotions are like a bank. You make withdrawals (give emotionally, physically, offer friendship and support to others) and you make deposits (receive emotions, feel loved, afection etc). I am sooo emotionally overdrawn I may need to file emotional bankruptcy. He loves me. I don't doubt that. I just don't feel it (from him or anyone else). I shut myself away. He doesn't know what to do, just then he doesn't try anymore. He just leaves me alone (probably assuming it's what I need). I don't think he will ever understand, though we are in counseling and working on it. He just has no frame of reference or the capacity to understand the depths of my sadness.
Smeegs
Posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 13:04:55
In reply to Re: payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 12:59:21
oh, I did try the long hot bubble bath, cookie dough, cat and fleece blanket routine last night hoping it would help. Sometime a little self pamper helps get me out of my little pity parties. Checked some Yoga videos out of the library. I can see where it would be a great de-stresser, but couldn't get in the frame of mind to let it work. Will keep at it though.
Smeegs
Posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 17:48:20
In reply to Re: payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 12:59:21
With all due respect, I couldn't think of emotions as like a bank. I couldn't expect other people to make deposits for me because invariably I would be disappointed.
Your story interests me. You said you grew up in a great, affectionate family with really loving parents, who sound like they did the right things by you. (oh, how some of us would like to go back and rewrite our histories! but we can't..) So, are you trying to recreate those childhood feelings in your life now, so you can feel that warmth? Does your present life not live up to that? It's interesting to me because so many people are looking to make up for what they missed, but I never thought about it from this other point of view.
If I have misunderstood you, please forgive me.
antigua
Posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 19:46:19
In reply to Re: payoff? » Smeegle, posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 17:48:20
THe whole bank analogy is kinda screwy. It's hard to put it into words so they make sense. You are right about not depending on other to make deposits because yes indeed, disappointment will follow.
You kinda hit the nail of the head about trying to recreate that love and security I felt from my childhood. I truely felt loved. Something that I cherish and realize how fortunate I was. Intellectually, I know I am loved now. But I don't FEEL loved. I need human contact and affection (not in a needy way, just human touch). Grrrr. I try not to let other people's behavior (or lack of) dictate my emotions/happiness, but to me that human contact is as necessary as food and oxygen.
Smeegs
Posted by Shortelise on December 9, 2004, at 21:35:13
In reply to Re: payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 9, 2004, at 12:59:21
Y'know, I don't think I've ever known the kind of depression you mean. Mine aren't so long, though they do get pretty dark. But I may understand, as well as anyone can be expected to.
Smeegs, there isn't anything else. This is it, or so I believe. Just love, and moments of contentment, and the few moments of joy we experience.
Can you go for walks with your husband? Long walks? Just get outside and walk?
This is a bad time of year. It's dark outside most of the time. Christmas brings lots of good memories and memories of disapppointed hopes. Final exams on top of that?! Yikes. Lots of stress.
What I really don't like about the idea of suicide is that I will have ended my only chance to live. I'm not going to heaven, hell or coming back as a beetle. This is it and when it's gone, that's the end. Nothing else, no more, never. Poof! All gone. The pain, yes, but also the pleasure. Chocolate. Cat fur. The smell of coffee in the morning. Oh, and strawberry shortcake with whipped cream. And those blue flowers, I don't know what they're called, but they grow in little clumps close to the ground and they are so blue, so very blue they fill my eyes, then my heart.
Long walks, Smeegs. Lots of long walks with your husband who doesn't know what to say. Walking teases out another part of our minds, a calmer bit, more meditative, more patient. Walk instead of watching TV. It's a depressant, like alcohol. Walk through the winter, into spring, then into summer.
Keep safe. If you don't feel safe, tell your doc, tell someone.
ShortE
Posted by crushedout on December 9, 2004, at 21:52:08
In reply to Re: payoff? » Smeegle, posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 17:48:20
that's interesting antigua, cuz i kinda think i had pretty good, loving parents as a kid and yet i'm all f'ed up now anyway. and i *do* sometimes think maybe they were TOO loving and so now the present can't possibly live up to my childhood, but is that possibly right? seems like it can't be. i dunno.
Posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 22:56:33
In reply to Re: payoff? » antigua, posted by crushedout on December 9, 2004, at 21:52:08
wow, I think we're onto something here but I can't quite put my finger on it yet. This is totally fascinating to me. You guys (smeegle and crushedout) are trying to recreate what you had as children and I'm trying to recreate what I never had. Is that it? If it is, my T tells me that my efforts to recreate will always fall short--I will never be able to do that. What I have to do is find other ways to make myself whole and I think I'm starting to do it more.
Does that mean you guys can't recreate it either? But you have concrete examples to follow--does that make it easier or harder, or is that any different really? But our depression or the way we go through this process seems very similar.
Also, crushedout--parents probably can be too loving, but I would only define "too loving" as being enablers or protecting you so much that you didn't learn to make mistakes and find your own ways to recover. Am I wrong or right?
You guys are great.
antigua
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 9, 2004, at 23:22:38
In reply to Are we onto something?, posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 22:56:33
Posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 0:30:53
In reply to not depressed just want more than to help others (nm), posted by Fallen4MyT on December 9, 2004, at 23:22:38
What do you mean, fallen?
ShortE
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 0:47:06
In reply to Re: not depressed just want more than to help others » Fallen4MyT, posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 0:30:53
> What do you mean, fallen?
>
> ShortE
Well I was reading some of the other replies to the original post and I too love helping people and work in animal rescue or did and do a lot of nice things, love the sun and water and flower gardening and all but all in all I could have passed on life...that is not stemming from depression it is just to me not enough. Maybe that sounds bad or selfish and I am sure God may think poorly of my view..or something but I could cure cancer today (it took most of my family) and still it's not worth it all to me. Does that make any sense??? It is like I want more than some pleasures and to be a help to all I meet.
Posted by crushedout on December 10, 2004, at 7:55:04
In reply to Re: not depressed just want more than to help others » Shortelise, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 0:47:06
i agree. that's why my post centered on small pleasures for myself (very selfish ones, like massages) *and* helping others. i don't think i could ever be happy if part of it wasn't about focusing completely on selfish pleasures.
Posted by Shortelise on December 10, 2004, at 13:15:37
In reply to Re: not depressed just want more than to help others » Shortelise, posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 0:47:06
I think see what you mean now.
THanks
ShortE
Posted by tryingtobewise on December 10, 2004, at 17:33:41
In reply to Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 7, 2004, at 22:17:14
Hi Smeegle ~
I posted above but after reading your replies want to add that I am very sorry that things are so dark for you right now. Please do everything possible to keep yourself safe.
{{Hugs}}
Kim
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 19:37:40
In reply to Re: not depressed just want more than to help othe » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on December 10, 2004, at 7:55:04
Posted by crushedout on December 10, 2004, at 23:36:35
In reply to My feelings may be selfish but they are honest :) (nm), posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 19:37:40
oh, hey, i didn't mean to suggest that your feelings were selfish (or certainly not in a judgemental way) -- i'm sorry if that wasn't clear. i think it's really *important* to be selfish at least a lot of the time. that was my point.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on December 10, 2004, at 23:43:43
In reply to Re: My feelings may be selfish but they are honest » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on December 10, 2004, at 23:36:35
Oh crushed no no way did I mean you or anyone I was just talking general like I am sure Mother Thersa would do it all JUST to do good but not me that is really all I mean when I added that a just general re3ply to all like I know I am :)
>
> oh, hey, i didn't mean to suggest that your feelings were selfish (or certainly not in a judgemental way) -- i'm sorry if that wasn't clear. i think it's really *important* to be selfish at least a lot of the time. that was my point.
Posted by crushedout on December 11, 2004, at 0:14:13
In reply to Are we onto something?, posted by antigua on December 9, 2004, at 22:56:33
Yeah, I don't really know what to make of it. The truth is, I go back and forth between thinking I was loved too much (or given the impression too much that I was omnipotent in some sense) and that I was neglected. I'm not really sure. Maybe it was both.But in any case, I find it so depressing that we can never have what we're longing for. How am I supposed to accept that??? It's horrifying.
Posted by Shortelise on December 11, 2004, at 16:26:23
In reply to Re: Are we onto something? » antigua, posted by crushedout on December 11, 2004, at 0:14:13
Crushed
The idea of not being able to have what we are longing for is horrifying. So you said. Or something like that.I am afraid that I must seem to be some sort of airy-fairy Pollyanna here sometimes. It's just that I try to be positive. When it comes down to it, there is no point, life is hard, it's painful and can be brutal. I live all of those things.
But I try to be positive.
All of that said, I find I am not longing so much anymore for the unaatainable, most of the time. No, I am not the ideal of personhood, not the saintly human who walks through life on a golden path. But the sh - er, I mean - crap I've slogged through in therapy these last six+ years have left me feeling better.
I've been able, somehow, and don't ask me how, to let go of some of the expectations I had of the world, I've been able to let go of some of my resentments and unfulfilled needs. Hey, says something inside of me, your mother cannot ever, ever, say to you that she thinks you are a fine, talented, intellligent, and valuable human being. She can't. But sometimes I can say that to myself and - gulp - actually believe it.
Sometimes I want to kill myself. Sometimes I want to live forever. SOmetimes I love myself, sometimes I hate myself. But I am rarely bored ;-)
So, Crushed, I guess my point is - do I have a point? - we are human, we can change, evolve. I have faith in this, believe it can happen in spite of ourselves, because believe me, I have fought it all the way.
I guess what I have found is other things to take the place of what I missed, what I needed that I never got. I have found things to fill those hollows, and maybe others can do it too. My therapist is one of the fillers, my husband fills some places, my cats, my friends, music, art, creativity, nature all fill places in my soul that yawn open in hunger at times.
And those places that remain empty I live with, learned and try to accept. I am complete despite them, or perhaps because of them. They are part of me, part of what makes me who I am, and I think everyone has them. They no longer frighten me as often as they did.
Forgive me if I lecture, forgive me if this is not how I am supposed to write here. I don't mean to be obnoxious and I hope someone would break it to me gently if I am. I just feel ... the people here are thinking, trying, asking questions and lookign for answers. That makes me think that we will find them, and that the effort of will that brings us here indicates a deep willingness to overcome.
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 14:16:04
In reply to Is there really a point? What's the payoff?, posted by Smeegle on December 7, 2004, at 22:17:14
I find that in the long run, as much as I am a true introvert, that it is my connection with others that ties me to this world, which I think in a way means that it is connection with others that make life worth living.
For some reason, I was able to make that connection with my therapist, even though I have to pay for it.
Posted by Smeegle on December 19, 2004, at 23:04:12
In reply to Re: Is there really a point? What's the payoff? » Smeegle, posted by Dinah on December 12, 2004, at 14:16:04
I made it through final! One stressor out of the way. Have been in contact with pdoc. He is aware of my ambivalence and struggle that I have internally.
I try not to allow myself to dwell, but at times my brain doesn't want to cooperate in steering my thoughts more productively. For me anyhow, it's largely a chemical imbalance. A little tweak of the meds and I am usually able to clear my thoughts a little better.
I will continue to look for some type of passion or purpose in my life. Some type of fulfillment. Anything to not feel so empty and that life is a HUGE waste of time. I don't feel that I am in any imminent danger of making any rash decisions at this point. I have zero expectations for the holidays so there will be no disappointments. It will be what I make of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
Smeegs
This is the end of the thread.
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