![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 72. Go back in thread:
Posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:44:53
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » Racer, posted by SLS on October 1, 2000, at 6:19:31
How are you feeling now? Did you have any idea you'd be starting anything like this?
I do hope it's helped at least a bit to see so much energy on this topic. ANd I really hope you are doing better.
Posted by SLS on October 2, 2000, at 9:35:29
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » SLS, posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:43:10
Hi Racer.
> > > And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
> > Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
> > There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.
> The support groups may be sliding scale, but the biological clean up costs big bux. An employee of mine lost his grandfather to a self-inflicted gunshot about 18 months ago. It was terrible, and the money for the cleanup was unexpected and very significant. And no, there was no financial assistance, and no, they were compelled to pay someone else to do it. Hazardous biological waste.
It is interesting how little attention I have paid to such a real and significant aspect of an event that we see and here of in the media every day. I didn't know. I don't recall ever seeing a news story devote a single second of coverage to the condition of the room in which the deceased has committed his tragic act or how to go about cleaning it up.
This, however, has nothing to do with the extreme conditions that *may* have driven the deceased to take their own life. If after years of excruciating pain, I have RATIONALLY and deliberatively decided that it was time to go, I don't think pointing a finger at me to consider the mess and expense I would create is going to weigh heavily on the other side of the balance scale. To have even considered the logistical consequences to others as an argument to take precedence over what goes into making a decision to commit suicide to me is sad. It helps serve to demonstrate to me the *lack* of acknowledgment of the predicament of the suffering and the decision making process that the sufferer has agonized with for what perhaps has seemed like an eternity of inflicted torture. Truly, LIFE has been the sole criminal for some individuals in this world. Think about it.
How would you regard the decision of a prisoner of war who, after having had the skin ripped off his back by his torturers and sprayed with acid, has bitten into the cyanide capsule he has been hiding buccally? By the way, this day follows the one they had done the same thing with his torso. The torturers are intent on keeping him alive as long as possible. They believe he knows where a single land-mine is hidden. He doesn't. This man is your brother.
Of course, you and I both know that this sort of thing has never happened. Right?
> > > Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
> > "A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?
> If, as I suspect, you're suggesting that I underestimate the pain and complexity of depression, please sit back for a moment and ask why I'd be here if I didn't have some clue about depression? Or ask one of the old timers here, like stjames, whether they think I have maybe an inkling about it...
Yes, you do have an inkling.
To quote what was lost in my previous post:
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
> > > Depression is something which can be overcome.
> > For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)
> I've had recurring depressions for almost 30 years, since late childhood/early adolescence. My first experience of anti-depressants came a decade into a severe depression which made it difficult for me to get through school. Tricyclics, with major side effects including a 70# weight gain. Then Paxil, a decade later, with a 50# weight gain and other side effects. Now, I'm on a drug cocktail, and am fairly stable. I'm hoping to go off the meds again next year, when I'll have been stable for about two years.
> > I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.
See your brother above.
> Scott, you have NO right to say that to me.
I have every right to. I owe this to the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, for which many have suffered and died for. I appreciate their suffering and hardship. I have the privilege to say it here. I have the motivation to respond to what you have already said. I have the right to be wrong. Am I?
> Just as you say I couldn't possibly know how hard someone else's life has been, you can't know how hard my life has been!
Again, I hope I fully demonstrated in my previous post that I am very aware of this.
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
Do you know how hard your brother's day has been? I don't. I can't.
> Let's see, should we have a test to see who deserves the right to claim the title of 'depressed individual' or maybe pin a list of failed drugs to our sleeves?
Ouch.
To quote you:
"Scott, you have NO right to say that to me."
No sweat.
> Listen, I am not in competition with you. I'm just trying to offer some hope.
> Two years ago I was actively suicidal, locked up on a 5150 in the county hospital, uninsured, unemployed, isolated from everyone, dealing with a doctor who pushed drugs at me despite major side effects (BP so low I couldn't walk unassisted), and hardly able to pay my bills. My mother, who thinks that depression is weak will, had to loan me money for bills, to keep a roof over my head. I couldn't get drugs, because of the cost. The doctor told me that the drugs were fine, even when I couldn't keep any food down because of them.
> Believe me, I do know something about how bad it can get.
No, you don't.
> And I don't believe that my recovery is an anomaly. I think that if you give up and run away, you'll never know if you could recover too.
Neither do I. It is the anomaly for which you cannot identify with. To try to avoid accusations of narcissism, please see my quote above.
> I will probably have to take drugs again down the line. I will probably have another depressive episode. It's still worth it to experience the life I'm building back up for myself.
> Every book I read, every new song I hear, they're all things I'd have missed out on if I'd taken the coward's way out. I'm glad to have survived. I hope you do too.
You have indeed suffered and lost much. Only you can know how much. Only you can know as to when more-than-a-lot becomes too much.
If more-than-a-lot does become too much for you, I will try to cure you if I can, easy your pain if I can, help you find someone who can if I can, ask you what I can do for you, and try to convince you to allow more time and stay alive. I will NOT try to persuade you not to end your life by telling you what a mess you would make for everyone to clean up and make you feel guilty for not having taken that into consideration. Well, perhaps I would. It might work.
Perhaps your condition is chronic and untreatable. Perhaps you are a cancer patient with six months to live and suffering excruciating pain for which there is no escape, not even with morphine. You have thought it over. You beg everyone around you to help you die. When it comes right down to it, it is the pain and agony you suffer that I would be most wanting to ease. Whatever it takes.
Perhaps you don't have to shoot the horse.
Perhaps, if things were different, the same act would be accomplished without making a mess.
Let's just agree that we both have a different hierarchy of priorities, and that we differ in how we feel about another's pain we cannot know.
There is much here to contemplate.
- Scott
Posted by PuraVida on October 2, 2000, at 14:55:35
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by stephanie l. on October 2, 2000, at 11:00:19
To all,
Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long post about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
Liz
Posted by SLS on October 3, 2000, at 18:36:29
In reply to To all: Re: I'll die if I want to. , posted by PuraVida on October 2, 2000, at 14:55:35
Dear Liz,
I just wanted to say hi and offer you my warm smile for having read your post. It was wonderful.
Just in case there is any confusion as to my belief system:
I do not advocate encouraging or allowing someone to commit suicide because they are depressed, especially when they are depressed.
Thank you for providing me with such a positive and constructive perspective and suggesting things I can do to try to make things better for myself.
Thank again.
- Scott> To all,
>
> Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long post about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
>
> I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
>
> Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
>
> Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
>
> Liz
Posted by jackflash2 on October 8, 2000, at 1:57:06
In reply to It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by Rainwoman on September 28, 2000, at 14:25:47
> I agree with both John and Todd. Everybody's pain is different, and who is to say how you should deal with it. I can see how it is alarming to some to discuss your own demise, especially for someone who has never suffered from depression before, let alone major depression. Lucky for those of you, you still have your survival instinct intact. Mine must've ran out of me with all the tears I have cried over the years. I know all too well nowadays what it feels like to have no hope. If you are already dead on the inside, why continue to suffer and consequently have those around you suffer? And before anybody brings up therapy, I have a very kind therapist whom I actually kind of like. He does try to make me feel better. He thinks that I just need to change my thinking. That if I improve my self esteem and recognize that I am talented, smart, witty(not as witty as Todd though), intelligent and have alot to offer, I will be happy. Sorry, but as dear as he is, he could say all those things to me until his tongue fell off. I can't FEEL any of those things. How can you when pain and sadness just consumes you and hurts so much sometimes that it hurts to breathe. I tried thinking his way, but I am so sick and tired of keeping up that farse. People, in my miserable little mind, can't understand what a person feels until you walk a mile in their shoes. Even then, you're just a mile away and you've got some poor bastards' shoes. My favorite thing is when he says, "Now I want you to promise me, you won't do anything to harm yourself, promise??" Okey, dokey doc, cross my heart, hope to die (oops, you already know that part...). The second favorite thing is, you can call me anytime to talk....yeah to your answering machine. I called that answering machine at 4:00am this morning to say I was having a very hard time and was really down (I didn't mention the fact that I had a "good friend" next to me myself. Only I throw up at the sight of blood. I would end up throwing up stuff I ate last week. That could make for a real long and messy ending. I don't have the courage for that, I didn't much care for half of what I ate last week. It's a good thing too, cause, call me demure, but I don't think that leaving a "I'm contemplating a slash and splash party and you're invited" is proper answering machine etiquette regardless of the hour.).
There are times when etiquette is not the most important thing in the world. And actually, that really doesn't sound like it violates etiquette. :)
I did hear from him at about 2:00 pm today. I don't blame him, I wouldn't want to hear those kind of party plans at 4:00am either. Ah, too many psychos, too little time.
>
> I am supposed to have an appt. with a p-doc next week, but I have done the med treads myself already, and just thinking about being let down again adds a new, not so colorful dimension to my ever present dismay. The only thing I fear, is that wherever you go from here is worse than here, if that could be possible. Another night like last night, and I may not have to wonder.
>
> I have no "safe" place in my childhood. Unless you might consider under the bed. But I lie awake in agony on top of the damn thing, I don't think climbing under it with the dust bunnies is going to bring me any hoorahs. Although it works for my cats.
>
> Anyway, enough of my rambling I just wanted to say I can empathize with what you are saying, and I hope things turn out for the better for everyone than they are for me. And, Todd, I like your dry sense of humor. You probably could write a book. I wouldn't want you to end up a "ghost" writer though! Sorry, poor pun. But, I think if you feel that way and it makes you feel even a little better to post it, I say let it out. I know how you feel.
>
> Rainwoman
>
> Sadness Within
>
> I can fathom reasons to live
> but can't feel any of them.
> Holding out for a hope
> to end this problem.
> In my world every day is full of strife,
> could I just for once
> feel the meaning of my life?
> They say I'm talented
> but I feel no joy,
> it's depression I feel
> talent is a decoy.
> A face to appear in, a mask of deception
> when all there really is,
> is the sadness within.
> I want to be me, for the hopelessness to cease
> for once to feel what everybody sees.
> Just a few moments in time,
> when I can be at peace. --RainwomanWhat do you want out of life?
Posted by coral on October 8, 2000, at 8:10:44
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by jackflash2 on October 8, 2000, at 1:57:06
Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.
Posted by SLS on October 8, 2000, at 13:38:02
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by coral on October 8, 2000, at 8:10:44
The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational. Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself. Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
- Scott> Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.
Posted by pullmarine on October 9, 2000, at 4:04:38
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 8, 2000, at 13:38:02
> The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.
1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
There is something to be said for permanence.John
> - Scott
>
> > Folks, IMHO, suicide is a viable option. I can't think of anything that is more of an inalienable right than the right to live or die. I went through a severe clinical depression for three and a half years, got the so-called "best" medical and psychiatric advice, including the head of psychiatry at a leading medical university, went on enough meds to fill a pharmacy, went through 11 docs... Other than doc appts., I was a lump on the couch. If my husband hadn't fixed meals and brought them to me, I wouldn't have eaten. For me, depression was like a frozen river. All anyone on the outside sees is ice... but, on the inside, as the ice gets thicker, the pressure from the water continues sto increase and increase unbearably. That depression ended with Zoloft and an amazing psychologist - one full year of both to break free and be healthy again. However, during the depression, had I known that it would never end, I would've committed suicide. The depression was horribly costly in every way; our business plummeted, finances were a disaster, bankruptcy, I threw my husband out (after being separated for a year, we've reconciled and the last six years have been great), and we're still rebuilding our business and financial lives. However, during the depression, I discussed suicide with my husband and explained my position. Undoubtedly, had he "caught" me in the act, he would've intervened and I would've found myself locked up in a psych ward. I told him my decision, not as a threat or call for help, but to let him know that he would not be responsible if I did commit suicide. My brother-in-law committed suicide and I know, first hand, the horrors of suicide on other people, especially the sense of "could I have stopped it?" and that's why I spoke very seriously with my husband. The depression brought an element of unrelenting horror into my life, not anyone's fault, just something that happened, but if it was permanent, I was out of here. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (two months) and the same remedy worked this time, Zoloft and the amazing psychologist. As sad as it is when someone commits suicide, ultimately, it is still that person's choice. As a society, we tend to say if a person has a fatal disease with X number of months to live and is in unrelenting pain, suicide may be understandable. Yet, what is different if a person has depression with YEARS to live? I know for me, I found a solution that works with Zoloft and psychotherapy. Others may not be so lucky, but I do think they have an obligation to make their feelings known to help their survivors understand (as best as possible) that it was a choice the person has made, and that the survivors aren't responsible. Candidly, I also used the thought of suicide as a means of hope . . . "if I can't conquer this, I can end my life" .. . and it was reassuring.AMEN,
JOHN
Posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by pullmarine on October 9, 2000, at 4:04:38
> > The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.> 1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
If you are truly interested in the subject of how severe depression affects cognition, perception, and reality-testing, I suggest you investigate it. There are decades of inquiry into this matter. Perhaps you will then be able to answer your own question.
Did you know that a depressed individual cannot even perceive properly the emotional content of another human face? (Results of a decade of study of NIMH inpatients in the Department of Biological Psychiatry).
Again, if you are truly interested...
> > Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
> 2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Is this what *your* doctor said? A much better grasp of reality? Give me your doctor's phone number. I think you are lying.
> > Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
> 3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
See your point #1.
> > 4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
> There is something to be said for permanence.
And what exactly would that be?
I do not feel that depression and rational deliberative thought are mutually exclusive. It is dependent upon the individual's type of depression and the momentary state of brain-mind that they are in. Have you ever heard of "psychotic depression"? You may want to look into the accuracy of the sense of reality of the sufferer of this kind of depression. Just look up the word "psychotic".
It would be extreme to take the position that depression de facto precludes the ability to produce appropriate decisions. I do not believe that the prospect of living a life with a severe case of intractable and torturous psychiatric illness qualifies any less than any other illness for the consideration of autoeuthanasia. However, I don't think the vast majority of depressed individuals who become suicidal qualify. Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom. The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?
I don't.
- Scott
Posted by coral on October 9, 2000, at 17:16:33
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
"....Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom.
The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?"I think you're confusing "suicidality" with "suicide ideation." Much of what we "thought" we knew about suicide has been debunked, such as those who talk about it, don't do it. We now know that's a myth. Also, it's not easy to commit suicide. Suicide normally requires a great deal of planning for successful execution (sorry.... no pun intended.)
I, too, have been told by therapists, through researching, formal education and by my own personal therapist, that a depressed person's perceptions are more accurate than a non-depressed persons, in many instances. That's part of the difficulty in the role of the therapist, to ascertain which perceptions are accurate and which are distorted, due to the depression. Not surprising, the causes of the depression are almost always linked to accurate perceptions of the depressed person. Rather than being able to handle the situation, for whatever reason, the psyche/brain malfunction, resulting in depression.
As far as "allow or encourage", I have interrupted someone's attempted suicide and would unhesitatingly do so again. No, I would not encourage someone to commit suicide.
I think the point of this discussion is whether someone has the right to commit suicide, and whether it should be considered as a viable option. I also clearly recognize that it's a slippery slope once a society says "okay" to suicide. The worst case scenario being forced euthanasia.
But, ultimately, the choice to live or die must rest with the individual.
Posted by SLS on October 10, 2000, at 11:38:45
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by coral on October 9, 2000, at 17:16:33
Hi Coral.
> > "....Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom.
The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?"> I think you're confusing "suicidality" with "suicide ideation."
I'm not sure I have. Without having used a dictionary, I have taken from context that there are semantic differences. In my mind, I consider suicidal ideation to be the formation of ideas about committing suicide and perhaps composing plans to do so. On the other hand, suicidality reflects a state of mind/brain within which there may be an impulse or drive to commit suicide, with or without previous ideation or forethought.
I believe that for many people, there is actually a neurophysiological substrate that actually produces suicidality. Some rather strong evidence for this involves an increased density of 5-HT2 receptors found in suicidal depressed patients as opposed to non-suicidal depressed patients. In addition, there are people for whom suicidality only appears in association with adverse psychiatric reactions to medication. The evolution of anxiety seems to be important here. People who have not had suicidal ideations prior to drug exposure can become suicidal within days.
This has happened to me more than once.
With or without a biological etiology, some depressed individuals become suicidal when feelings of hopelessness appear. This does not mean that their situation is hopeless. They just perceive or believe it to be. It may not be. If they can be shown otherwise, they may change their mind about committing suicide. The perception of hopelessness can be both a cause and result of depression. When it is the result of depression, this represents a skewing of perception by the depression. Their judgment becomes biased towards negativity, and is often not commensurate with the situation. Upon remission from depression, this same person may not regard the same situation as being negative at all. If this sort of thing does happen, how are we to judge when a person's desire to commit suicidal is reflective of the temporary changes in thinking produced by depression? After they are dead, they have very little chance of changing their mind should their depression remits.
This stuff is meant to be a caveat in those cases in which the sufferer of depression is acting out of impulse or unrealistic negative thinking that can be produced by the depression itself.
> Much of what we "thought" we knew about suicide has been debunked, such as those who talk about it, don't do it. We now know that's a myth. Also, it's not easy to commit suicide. Suicide normally requires a great deal of planning for successful execution (sorry.... no pun intended.)
> I, too, have been told by therapists, through researching, formal education and by my own personal therapist, that a depressed person's perceptions are more accurate than a non-depressed persons, in many instances.
I guess I have some homework to do. Any chance I can find this on the Internet? I guess my first question is, are there things in particular about which a depressed person's perceptions can be more accurate? The notion still seems bazarre to me. I really would like to learn something here.
> That's part of the difficulty in the role of the therapist, to ascertain which perceptions are accurate and which are distorted, due to the depression. Not surprising, the causes of the depression are almost always linked to accurate perceptions of the depressed person.
I'm not sure I feel comfortable with the term "almost always". Perhaps it is the chicken and egg thing. The perceptions we have of the world as adults are very much the product of our development as children. When children grow up in a dysfunctional or abusive environment, I don't think their perceptions as adults are the same as they would be had they been raised in a healthier environment. Perhaps it is the distorted constucts of the world formed in childhood that lead to adult depression as the individual tries to navigate the real world with the unhealthy perceptions that they formed when accurately perceiving their unhealthy childhood environment. However, as adults, their perceptions remain inaccurate.
Just some thoughts. No backup.
> Rather than being able to handle the situation, for whatever reason, the psyche/brain malfunction, resulting in depression.
> As far as "allow or encourage", I have interrupted someone's attempted suicide and would unhesitatingly do so again. No, I would not encourage someone to commit suicide.
> I think the point of this discussion is whether someone has the right to commit suicide, and whether it should be considered as a viable option. I also clearly recognize that it's a slippery slope once a society says "okay" to suicide. The worst case scenario being forced euthanasia.
> But, ultimately, the choice to live or die must rest with the individual.
I do not disagree. This is tough stuff.
Depression sucks. Pain sucks. I want both to stop for me right now. I want life to begin for me right now.
- Scott
Posted by Tera on October 11, 2000, at 0:19:27
In reply to To all: Re: I'll die if I want to. , posted by PuraVida on October 2, 2000, at 14:55:35
> To all,
>
> Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long post about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
>
> I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
>
> Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
>
> Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
>
> LizNorman Cousins once said “the tragedy of life is not death but what dies inside us while we live”. I believe this totally. Every single day we get up and try to not let this life get us too low, too desperate, too sad, too hopeless. I hate that poster of the cat hanging by its claws for dear life because I have felt that way too many times.
But 20 years ago I had a near death experience and it was so awesome, so spectacular, so full of God that I do hang on, take anti-depressants at times, do herbs, whatever, until I remember the Glory again. And then I do and thank God I am here to 'smell the flowers' and try to ignore the stinky ones. Sometimes I feel completely stupid because I did see that Perfection, The Light, felt that Perfect Peace and Love and still have all this depression and self-hatred!!
Now I am trying to learn how to 'let go of the pole' and just be. I meditate, pray, give myself pep talks, forgive myself, and remember. Yesterday, I forgot. Today, I remembered. Thank you all. Light and Love, tera
Posted by PuraVida on October 11, 2000, at 5:13:28
In reply to Re: To all: Re: I'll die if I want to. , posted by Tera on October 11, 2000, at 0:19:27
Has anyone heard from Todd?
Todd - I hope you are still with us, in more ways than one.
Liz
> > To all,
> >
> > Why would someone kill themselves if they had the flu? Yes, depression and mental illnesses are terrible, but most of the time, with meds and some patience and effort, we do get better. I'm better now, still on meds, and just came on this site for any info on contradictions between serzone and ginko biloba. I am really sad to see such a long thread about suicide. Well, I guess its great that people are posting, and not doing it, but I can't believe how many of you think that its a solution.
> >
> > I've been battling depression for nearly six years now, and I understand your pain, I do. I've spent months on end in bed, damaged jobs and relationships, etc. I've damaged my credit rating, spent tons on late fees, and who knows what else. No, life shouldn't be so painful, and yes, depression sucks. BUT, YOU WILL GET OUT OF THE HOLE! There is a light at the end of the tunnel - you MUST tell yourself this everyday. I can't believe how differently I can see things now - I can't beleive I ever even thought about not participating in the live. Take your meds, eat good foods, get out doors, exercise, and surround yourself with positive experiences and people. Hypnotherapy, as well as traditional therapy, helped me. So did getting massages and mainucures, and even the tanning bed in the winter! Treat yourself well. Volunteer to raise a dog for the blind, or teach kids how to read. Best yet - get a change of scenery - pack a backpack with a journal and your meds and hike a mountain or catch a flight to India to see how much "pain" others experience. Why do our Western cultures get depressed, when life flows so regularly in other areas of the world? Travel to other countries is possible the best therapy I've found. It's a pain to get yourself there, but once you do, it can be very freeing.
> >
> > Maybe you are "dead" inside because your environment "killed" you - but really, you've just gone into hibernation. Go live a little! Life is a process, not a goal - take a step each day and you'll be suprised at how it starts to be easier. Its when we sit still for so long, or push ourselves too hard that it takes so much effort to take steps, so take one everyday, no more no less, and off you'll go.
> >
> > Please don't think I'm a Polyanna who had a bit of a bad mood. I still battle with indicators that I may slip back into the whole, but I use the advice I've just given to you, above, and I've managed to be functional for the past year, and I think I can say I've managed to be pretty happy about myself for the past 6 months or so. There are a bunch of us out here who have made it out of the tunnel - we've got big old lights we want you to see so that you can join us. Good luck!
> >
> > Liz
>
> Norman Cousins once said “the tragedy of life is not death but what dies inside us while we live”. I believe this totally. Every single day we get up and try to not let this life get us too low, too desperate, too sad, too hopeless. I hate that poster of the cat hanging by its claws for dear life because I have felt that way too many times.
>
> But 20 years ago I had a near death experience and it was so awesome, so spectacular, so full of God that I do hang on, take anti-depressants at times, do herbs, whatever, until I remember the Glory again. And then I do and thank God I am here to 'smell the flowers' and try to ignore the stinky ones. Sometimes I feel completely stupid because I did see that Perfection, The Light, felt that Perfect Peace and Love and still have all this depression and self-hatred!!
>
> Now I am trying to learn how to 'let go of the pole' and just be. I meditate, pray, give myself pep talks, forgive myself, and remember. Yesterday, I forgot. Today, I remembered. Thank you all. Light and Love, tera
Posted by Rainwoman on October 11, 2000, at 9:36:44
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by pullmarine on October 9, 2000, at 4:04:38
> 2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
>
> Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
>
> 3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
>
> 4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
> There is something to be said for permanence.Pullmarine--
I too have read that depressed individuals have a keener perception of reality than non-depressed individuals.
I think that is true, and although their reactions to certain situations lead people to
believe that their perception is skewed.For instance, when I explain depression to a non-depressed individual, I describe it as follows:
Imagine there is a mood scale. Normal people usually wake up at zero on the mood scale. Please note
I am using "usually". Of course people have bad moods and good moods that can alter that. However,
for arguments sake, lets just use the usual. I try to explain that a depressed individual wakes
up at -5 (adjust depending on level of dep.). Now imagine on your way to work, somebody cuts you off.
That of course pisses you off. Maybe you go down to -1 on the mood scale. Take the depressed individual
that is already at -5, and this might bring him down to -7. The situation weighs heavier on the depressed person you might say. Somebody reacting to a bad situation at -7
and a person at -1 are going to be different. The -1 person thinks the -7 person is overreacting, possibly
not interpreting reallity properly, when actually, it's just the reaction to the situation with the depressive influence
altering the situation. Just my little theory.My belief is that a person should have the right to die. I am not talking about "suicide ideation".
I don't know if anyone saw the movie "Girl Interrupted". In it the main character, has an interesting
quote, (this is not exact) "Once a person contemplates their own demise, they can almost become obsessed
with it, you miss your train, you might be OK, next you spill your coffee on yourself and you think,
I want to kill myself". I think people who are thinking like tht do not really mean it. It is as someone
said earlier, a way for the depressed mind to think that there is a way out, providing a sort of comfort to the
frustration. A way for your depressed mind to think that you have the ultimate control over what happens to you
and your situation.
For that type, I don't think that suicide is a viable option. Nor do I think that sort of individual actually
really does. I'm talking about a person who has lived with this for a long while and tried all the options.
Meds, therapy, etc. Every situation is different. For instance, I don't really have any family and most of
my relationships have been destroyed due to my depression. So, how it will affect people in my life is not
really a consideration. But that may be for another. I don't think that another person has the right to assume
they understand how a person feels and come to the conclusion "You must live!". I don't believe God gave me the
power to do that. For those of you who feel that they can see a the future for an individual, boy you are blessed.
And thinking that because something may have worked for you, so it will work for someone else, is just plain ignorant.
Sorry if that offends, but you have no way of knowing if that person will ever have relief from their pain. Sometimes,
when I contemplate the future with this pain, it is so unbearable, I can't figure out how my heart doesn't stop beating.
But, of course we know the heart has nothing to do with pain, but it seems so overwhelming, that it should kill me.To whoever said that they explained to her husband that he was not going to be at fault for her suicide, I have done
the same thing with my remaining friends and even my therapist. I explained that if that happened, it would be it was
because it was something I wanted. I had tried everything and nothing had worked, and living the way I do now is out of the
question. There is nothing they can do to heal the underlying despair in me, and it was too painful for me to live with.
It's stupid to want someone to suffer because you CAN SEE THE FUTURE and God has apparently given you some inside info that
something is going to help this person.Just my rambling. And to whoever asked me the idiotic question "What do I want out of life",
duh, I believe my poem said exactly what I wanted. Some godamn peace. If I didn't suffer from depression
my life would be fine, other than the damage that has been done as a result of the
depression. Geez.Rainwoman
Posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:25:22
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 9, 2000, at 11:11:23
>
> > > The biggest problem with allowing a depressed individual to rationally decide to end their own life is that they are most often not rational.
>
> > 1. Rational? according to what or whose standards?
>
> If you are truly interested in the subject of how severe depression affects cognition, perception, and reality-testing, I suggest you investigate it. There are decades of inquiry into this matter. Perhaps you will then be able to answer your own question.There is plenty of research that negates this, look up depression+reality perception. If you can't find anything let me know, i'll provide you with data. Furthermore, are you telling me that albert einstein, freud, hannah arrendt, mark twain, cocteau, ambrose bierce, virginia woolf, etc. did not have accurate perceptions that were full of insight?
I worked in suicide prevention and trained people in it. My (extensive, if not endless)paper on suicide prevention, intervention and post-vention is available at SJERP, VUB. In this process, I saved four people via intervention, and said goodbye to my friend and lover, Thomas van Strijdonck, who took his own life with my blessing two years ago. And though I miss his presence, I'm glad he's finally at peace.
>
> Did you know that a depressed individual cannot even perceive properly the emotional content of another human face? (Results of a decade of study of NIMH inpatients in the Department of Biological Psychiatry).
>
> Again, if you are truly interested...
>
I am truly interested, but i would like to review the data, the sample, and the backgrounds of the sample, the criteria under which the test group was chosen for 'depression', the tests and how they were constructed and carried out (ie. double blind?)> > > Their judgment is impaired and skewed by the warping of congnition and perception that is the manifestation of the depression itself.
>
> > 2. Depressed persons have a much better sense and grasp of reality, ask your doc about this and other findings.
Plenty of research on this, including the ability to see through complex issues, generate information, solve puzzles, see through optical illusions far faster than non-depressed persons.> Is this what *your* doctor said? A much better grasp of reality? Give me your doctor's phone number. I think you are lying.
Nope, I studied psych baby, with a specialization in suicidology.
>
> > > Their thought processes are inextricably contained within the confines of a depressed mood, influencing the individual's decision-making processes to draw conclusions that they might not draw in the absence of depression.
>
> > 3. drawing conclusions from an accurate sense of reality. with thinking that is rational, and well thought out.
>
> See your point #1.
>
> > > 4. Suicidality is often fleeting. Suicide is not.
>
> > There is something to be said for permanence.
>
> And what exactly would that be?
>
Peace baby.> I do not feel that depression and rational deliberative thought are mutually exclusive. It is dependent upon the individual's type of depression and the momentary state of brain-mind that they are in. Have you ever heard of "psychotic depression"? You may want to look into the accuracy of the sense of reality of the sufferer of this kind of depression. Just look up the word "psychotic".
>I'm familiar with the term psychotic. However, there are a number of definitions for this arbitrary human construct. which definition are you refering to and to what purpose?
> It would be extreme to take the position that depression de facto precludes the ability to produce appropriate decisions. I do not believe that the prospect of living a life with a severe case of intractable and torturous psychiatric illness qualifies any less than any other illness for the consideration of autoeuthanasia. However, I don't think the vast majority of depressed individuals who become suicidal qualify. Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom. The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable. Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?
>Depends, often suicide is a cry for help. In sucha case, I believe in intervention and prevention. In the case of Thomas (and also in my case), he had tried to end his pain a number of times. It was no longer a 'cry for help'. He was just sick of it, and he wanted the pain to stop, and he wanted to be at peace.
>
>
JohnPS, did you know that a grief reaction is clinicly indistinguishable from 'depression'
Posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:42:25
In reply to Re: It's my party and I'll die if I want to. , posted by SLS on October 10, 2000, at 11:38:45
> Hi Coral.
>
> > > "....Suicidality is often an impulse to escape an intensification of pain and feelings of doom.I agree. However, Often is not equal to always.
> The pain and feelings of doom are either transient or treatable.
For some! And good for them.
Often, the same person gets suicidal episodically. Their "rational" decision-making processes seem to change with the changes in the severity of their illness. Do you feel it is rational to allow or encourage such an individual to successfully end their own life during such an episode?"
See previous post!
> I'm not sure I have. Without having used a dictionary, I have taken from context that there are semantic differences. In my mind, I consider suicidal ideation to be the formation of ideas about committing suicide and perhaps composing plans to do so. On the other hand, suicidality reflects a state of mind/brain within which there may be an impulse or drive to commit suicide, with or without previous ideation or forethought.
Let's not quible over words!> I believe that for many people, there is actually a neurophysiological substrate that actually produces suicidality. Some rather strong evidence for this involves an increased density of 5-HT2 receptors found in suicidal depressed patients as opposed to non-suicidal depressed patients. In addition, there are people for whom suicidality only appears in association with adverse psychiatric reactions to medication. The evolution of anxiety seems to be important here. People who have not had suicidal ideations prior to drug exposure can become suicidal within days.
>5-ht2, also found in great abundance among the brighter and more creative part of the population. furthermore, correlation is not causation.
> With or without a biological etiology, some depressed individuals become suicidal when feelings of hopelessness appear. This does not mean that their situation is hopeless. They just perceive or believe it to be. It may not be. If they can be shown otherwise, they may change their mind about committing suicide. The perception of hopelessness can be both a cause and result of depression. When it is the result of depression, this represents a skewing of perception by the depression. Their judgment becomes biased towards negativity, and is often not commensurate with the situation. Upon remission from depression, this same person may not regard the same situation as being negative at all. If this sort of thing does happen, how are we to judge when a person's desire to commit suicidal is reflective of the temporary changes in thinking produced by depression? After they are dead, they have very little chance of changing their mind should their depression remits.
True, but there are those, like thomas, and mty sister, and me, who are truly fed up. And BTW, I am not depressed, if anything, I am quite functional. I just find life painful, boring, and I'd rather not have to go through it. I truly think many of those who so desperatly want to keep others alive have an inaccurate perception of reality due to a stronger tendancy for denial, avoidance and repression. This is my gut feeling, and i've no data to support this. I further believe that suicide is very traumatic to these people, because it forces them to confront certain realities.> This stuff is meant to be a caveat in those cases in which the sufferer of depression is acting out of impulse or unrealistic negative thinking that can be produced by the depression itself.
>'unrealistic' to whose standards?
> > Much of what we "thought" we knew about suicide has been debunked, such as those who talk about it, don't do it. We now know that's a myth. Also, it's not easy to commit suicide. Suicide normally requires a great deal of planning for successful execution (sorry.... no pun intended.)
>
Indeed!> > I, too, have been told by therapists, through researching, formal education and by my own personal therapist, that a depressed person's perceptions are more accurate than a non-depressed persons, in many instances.
>
> I guess I have some homework to do. Any chance I can find this on the Internet? I guess my first question is, are there things in particular about which a depressed person's perceptions can be more accurate? The notion still seems bazarre to me. I really would like to learn something here.
>
I'll soon post some data on this. In the meantime, please read They SAy You're Crazy by Caplan> > That's part of the difficulty in the role of the therapist, to ascertain which perceptions are accurate and which are distorted, due to the depression. Not surprising, the causes of the depression are almost always linked to accurate perceptions of the depressed person.
>
> I'm not sure I feel comfortable with the term "almost always". Perhaps it is the chicken and egg thing. The perceptions we have of the world as adults are very much the product of our development as children. When children grow up in a dysfunctional or abusive environment, I don't think their perceptions as adults are the same as they would be had they been raised in a healthier environment. Perhaps it is the distorted constucts of the world formed in childhood that lead to adult depression as the individual tries to navigate the real world with the unhealthy perceptions that they formed when accurately perceiving their unhealthy childhood environment. However, as adults, their perceptions remain inaccurate.
>
Which reality are we talking about?>
> > Rather than being able to handle the situation, for whatever reason, the psyche/brain malfunction, resulting in depression.'Malfunction'? according to what standards?
>
> > As far as "allow or encourage", I have interrupted someone's attempted suicide and would unhesitatingly do so again. No, I would not encourage someone to commit suicide.
>
> > I think the point of this discussion is whether someone has the right to commit suicide, and whether it should be considered as a viable option. I also clearly recognize that it's a slippery slope once a society says "okay" to suicide. The worst case scenario being forced euthanasia.
>
Forced euthanasia? surely you mean murder.> > But, ultimately, the choice to live or die must rest with the individual.
Indeed!
>
> I do not disagree. This is tough stuff.
>
> Depression sucks. Pain sucks. I want both to stop for me right now. I want life to begin for me right now.
>
I hope for you it does, in whatever way you feel most comfortable with. and i wish the same for myself.
>
john
Posted by coral on October 12, 2000, at 7:39:41
In reply to yet another reply, posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:42:25
Hi,
I'd like to clarify a couple of points.
1. Forced euthanasia - one of the potential risks a society faces, once it 'approves' of suicide, is that people who are disabled, elderly, infirm, mentally retarded, chronically ill, progressively ill, mentally ill, suffering from a fatal disease, or fall out of the realm of so-called 'normal' may feel pressure to commit suicide so as not to continue to be a burden on society.
2. Accuracy of some perceptions of a depressed person. We know that meds. help some people who are depressed. We also know that therapy helps some people who are depressed. (Present thought is that the highest rate of recovery is a combo of therapy/meds.) Depression causes some distortions in thinking but it also strips away some defenses, allowing extremely painful but highly accurate thoughts to emerge. It's part of the therapist's job to distinguish between the two, and help the client determine what he or she wishes to do about the highly accurate thoughts. The depression may well have been a coping mechanism. Let's consider two scenarios. In the first scenario, the accuracy of some people's lives is so ungodly awful (aside from the depression) that they choose not to continue living. In the second scenario, the depression is recalcitrant, unrelenting, and all treatment methods fail. This person faces the rest of his or her life in a depressed state which could be years of continued agony. Of course, new methods of treatment are being developed, but if a person says "That's it. I'm done. I'm not going to wait," do we have the right to tell them they're wrong?
3. Re: the post about abusive childhoods. 90% of abusers were abused themselves. However, that doesn't mean that 90% of abused children grow up to be abusers. They learn new methods of relating, loving, and parenting.Please let me restate that I'd hate to think of anyone rushing into suicide as a quick fix, and it is a horrible decision but, for some people, it may be preferrable than continuing to live. Do we have the right to tell such people they're wrong?
Speaking personally, I am and will always be grateful that I found effective methods to conquer both the depression and the causes of the depression. I am delighted to be alive. But, I also believe in the principle of choice.
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2000, at 10:41:38
In reply to For your information, posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:25:22
Dear John,
I took your suggestion and did a search for "depression" and "perception" on Google and Medline.I could find only one paper on Google demonstrating a higher degree of perceptual accuracy than normals. In this study, the depressed (not well-defined) individuals more accurately perceived the degree of control they had over a computerized performance task. The non-depressed individuals over-estimated the degree of control they had on their environment. It seems that this bias (inaccuracy) exhibited by normals serves the useful purpose of producing more reward than might be commensurate with the event, thus increasing vigilance and increasing their rate of success.
On Medline, I found an abstract written in 1983 purporting to summarize the bulk of empirical studies at that time supporting the "depressive realism" school of thought:
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: J Clin Psychol 1983 Nov;39(6):848-53 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut
Painful truths about depressives' cognitions.Layne C
Cognitive theories assert that depressed persons' cognitions are distorted. Most of the empirical literature directly contradicts this assertion. Using a wide variety of methods to study a wide variety of cognitive processes, experiments consistently find that depressed people suffer significantly less cognitive distortion than do both normals and nondepressed psychiatric patients. It was speculated that childhood traumas predispose depression by preventing the normal formation of a defensive screen against painful realities.
PMID: 6662935, UI: 84112059
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Other than these two examples, everything else seems to be consistent with my more-or-less layman's perception regarding the cognitive distortions producing, and produced by, depression. Being depressed, the accuracy of my perceptions regarding this matter should not be called into question.Seriously, I didn't spend any more than an hour at this. I had thought to quote and reference all the URLs describing the cognitive and perceptual distortions produced by depression, but there were too many. There would be no use to do so anyway, as a majority of opinion doesn't guarantee its validity. Perhaps I only found what I was looking for so as to support my current beliefs.
I don't have very much more than an undergraduate education regarding psychology and sociology. I have not delved into the realm of experimental psychology. However, I imagine I could get through some of the material you have offered to point me in the direction of.
I find the theme common to the two examples above to be a sort of paradox. If "normal" people are less accurate than depressives at perceiving or conceptualizing various aspects of "reality", it is because, to the normal individual, everything seems better than it really is, and that they experience unjustified optimism. It is precisely this "inaccuracy" that may leave the "normal" less vulnerable to becoming depressed in the first place. If this is the case, then this is one of the few times I would rather be wrong about things.
It seems to me that many people suffering from chronic depression look to find some redeeming value to their suffering. This is probably a defense mechanism.
I still can't help feeling that the notion of depression being a vehicle for more accurate perceptions of the world is a bunch of crap.
- Scott
> PS, did you know that a grief reaction is clinicly indistinguishable from 'depression'So?
Posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 12:35:39
In reply to yet another reply, posted by pullmarine on October 11, 2000, at 23:42:25
I'm sort of jumping in the middle here (not having read each and every post), but isn't talking about "distorted" thoughts sort of like talking about what is "normal" ? That is, there's no such thing as normal, except that thinking makes it so, or perhaps majority opinion makes it so. (To wit: cultural differences.)
So, if my therapist's role is to determine which thoughts are "accurate" and which are "distorted" I may be in real trouble. And, if the "distortion" -- once pointed out -- would simply disappear, I have wasted a fortune in therapist fees.
Since I was a teen, I've had hardly a day that I did not think about suicide. Or, maybe other forms of it--wanting to disappear, wanting to run away, etc. So, let's pretend I was raised to believe I was so worthless and useless, I did not even deserve to "be" -- that wouldn't be a distorted thought, that's a fact, Jack.
All I would need is for a therapist to tell me, "hey, that's not true. You deserve to be here." Maybe whip out his Bible and tell me what God has in mind for me (I find most religion pretty offensive). Then I'd think, oh, well, I do deserve to be here, and I'm all healed now? What a silly idea!
As to the perceptions of depressed people, hypervigilence may play a role in that. You know, when kids learn to pick up on slight changes in behavior of their parents (against whom they are, in fact, helpless) in order to survive. If it does play into it, is it distorted, then, that they notice the danger around them? Or, as some might put it, that they are pessimistic?
I believe (no empirical evidence) depressed people may be and feel hopeless for good reason, and they want to love and be loved, and they don't have much in between. So, sometimes, if someone seems trustworthy, they may fling open their hearts -- and guess what? Oops, the "trustworthy" person didn't/couldn't/wouldn't give what was needed. (Maybe nobody could.) But, then, the depressed person is going to ...what? Get depressed again? Believe there is no hope (that was just proven to them!).
As much as others on this board may disagree, I can understand completely the desire to commit suicide. Every single day. To live in oceans of night and want with my entire being to die. However, I've come to my own understanding of how come I won't do that. But, do I think that is a "distorted" point of view? Nope. Does my happy sister think so? Yep. Her world goes from happy to happier. Do I see pain where she turns her head? Yep. Does she have to be a pretzel sometimes in order to deny the bad things that happen (ie, combine a set of disparate beliefs or parts thereof so she can get the facts into her happy framework)? Yep.
I'm not sure this is making sense. The solution for me has been to take meds that keep me above water, and go to therapy because I have a desire to develop some additional skills that may make my life a safer and more rewarding place to be. I want to have a life that seems less tragic. But, if for some reason I decided it was time for me to "shuffle off this mortal coil" I by God would, in a heartbeat, so to speak.
And the "non-distorted thinkers" could interpret it their way (oh, if x had only happened, she could have been so happy....), and some of the depressed and/ or suicidal people could probably understand, after 30+ years of depression, it happened.
Shar
Posted by coral on October 12, 2000, at 13:41:52
In reply to Distorted thoughts, posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 12:35:39
". . . So, if my therapist's role is to determine which thoughts are "accurate" and which are "distorted" I may be in real trouble. And, if the "distortion" -- once pointed out -- would simply disappear, I have wasted a fortune in therapist fees. . ."
No, no such luck as magical fairy dust sprinkled by the therapist or clapping to keep Tinkerbell alive. That's when the grueling, often psyche-ripping work of therapy really begins. Frankly, there were times during therapy that were actually more painful than the depression (I know that's hard to imagine) and it took every bit of courage I could muster plus trust in an amazing therapist to see it through. In MY case, and I don't mean to extrapolate my situation to everyone else, medications helped me cope with the horror thoughts of depression - the endless nights, the blackness of my world, the helplessness, the ever-hungry worms eating my soul . . . the therapy helped me to accept the accurate perceptions and rebuild my life based on a foundation of self-truth rather than denial and rationalization.
Posted by coral on October 12, 2000, at 14:03:48
In reply to Re: For your information, posted by SLS on October 12, 2000, at 10:41:38
>
> I still can't help feeling that the notion of depression being a vehicle for more accurate perceptions of the world is a bunch of crap.
>
It's not an either/or, nor is a competition -- accuracy in perception is not solely determined by whether someone is depressed or not. This line of discussion (re: perception) came about when someone else and I refuted the statements that a depressed person's perceptions were essentially inherently distorted and therefore, the person could not be relied upon to make the most appropriate decision re: suicide for him/herself.
Posted by SLS on October 12, 2000, at 16:21:05
In reply to to Scott, posted by coral on October 12, 2000, at 14:03:48
Hi Coral.
> It's not an either/or, nor is a competition -- accuracy in perception is not solely determined by whether someone is depressed or not.
Of course.
> This line of discussion (re: perception) came about when someone else and I refuted the statements that a depressed person's perceptions were essentially inherently distorted and therefore,
Yes. I believe that they are. The degree to which cognitions are distorted have been shown to be related to the severity of depression. What kind of depression are you talking about anyway? I was referring to major depression and bipolar depression. Depression is a small word people use to describe a great many things.
> the person could not be relied upon to make the most appropriate decision re: suicide for him/herself.
Yes. I believe that this is true in far more cases than it is not. This is why I went out of my way to write anything in the first place. Anything short of acknowledgment of this phenomenon would only serve to foster a tragic decision to be made by someone reading this thread.
As you have indicated, it is not an either/or situation. I fully recognize that there are people suffering from chronic and intractable psychiatric illnesses for which a deliberative decision is possible and appropriate.
- Scott
Posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 20:38:30
In reply to Re: Distorted thoughts, posted by coral on October 12, 2000, at 13:41:52
"the therapy helped me to accept the accurate perceptions and rebuild my life based on a foundation of self-truth rather than denial and rationalization."
This is an interesting and thought-provoking idea. I'd never thought of equating depression (or depressive thoughts) with denial and rationalization, nor had I thought that self-truths were absent during depression.
On an anecdotal level, it certainly doesn't seem that way and is not my experience. However, since I have been suicidal for about the last 30 years (and in therapy for about the last 20), maybe what I think are accurate perceptions really aren't and maybe my self-truths are really just denial and rationalization.
On the other hand, (I think to myself) maybe my experiences are accurate perceptions, and my self-truths are self-truths. As you said, this is a difficult one to extrapolate to others. I will certainly have to give this train of thought more consideration.
I'm so happy for you that you found the accurate perceptions, and let go of your denial and rationalization. And, yes, I can relate to therapy as grueling and painful work, and am so glad you came out the other side with such a positive outlook! Best of all to you in the future!
Shar
Posted by coral on October 13, 2000, at 6:27:35
In reply to Re: Distorted thoughts, posted by shar on October 12, 2000, at 20:38:30
Dear Shar,
Thank you for your kind words. I admire your courage tremendously. My first severe clinical depression wiped out three and a half years of my life which seems like nothing compared to the battle you're engaged in. I'm on the healing side of my second depressive episode (much briefer - I had a better handle on what worked for me). At the moment, I'm scared witless that I got blindsided the second time. I never saw the warning signs and with hindsight, they were all there. I just woke up one morning with that chilly, bony hand gripping my throat. For me, I've likened it to Malaria - that relapses are possible (hopefully not probable). I don't know why or how I got so careless and lost so much awareness and am battling self-anger. The beast sits across the room from me, a partially packed suitcase at its feet, wickedly grinning. I look at the collection of prescription meds and think what tiny soldiers to do battle with such a formidable foe. I realize that I'm in a war for a happy, healthy life.
Please let me know how you're doing, Shar.
Coral
Posted by coral on October 13, 2000, at 16:41:42
In reply to Re: to Scott, posted by SLS on October 12, 2000, at 16:21:05
Dear Scott,My personal experience is with severe clinical depression. You're right that depression is a catch-all phrase for many disorders. I also would like to clarify that my comments concerning distorted thoughts were specifically for that type of depression and we have no disagreement that there are distortions in a depressed person's thinking and perhaps we're discussing whether a depressed person is capable of rational thought and accurate perceptions. I believe the answer is "yes." Given that, the difficulty is in determining which thoughts are distortions and which are accurate perceptions. I would also hate to think that the power of this message board is such that it could be a deciding or even influencing factor in a life-continuing decision. However, your point is well-taken, given the advice freely offered and presumably taken concerning extremely powerful medications on this board.
Take care,
Coral
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