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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 18:09:50
I hesitate posting my failure at 91 days since it may not be much encouragement for others. I've been physically sick for 2 weeks (cold/flu) and just cracked.
Hang in there Clear Skies, don't do what I do. I'm sure I will be full of regret tomorrow.
I've been on such a "dry drunk". It hasn't been "quality" sobriety where I'm filling the void, the neediness, with something fulfilling.
Call it borderline personality disorder or too much philosophy, but I find life meaningless. I was even touched by "God", born again, and I still can't get by the meaninglessness.
Christian critics would say I'm not one of them yet I had a spiritual rebirth. Or they will say, I "fell away" since I'm drinking. Did they "fall away", when they polished off a half gallon of ice cream or gossiped about a fellow pewster.
I used to think I just had the usual borderliner anger but I'm wondering whether, perhaps, I've settled into a less complicated, anti-social, slow boil.
It's like I don't give a rip whether people like me anymore. Might be a good thing I guess. (fear of God, rather than fear of man) Yet I don't even fear God because I would have to "know" God first.
Something touched me but I can't define it. I cringe when people talk in a familiar way, like they are pals with God.
I'll be quiet.
Verne
Posted by ClearSkies on October 19, 2005, at 0:25:15
In reply to Drinking Again, posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 18:09:50
>Something touched me but I can't define it. I cringe when people talk in a familiar way, like they are pals with God.
You mean here at babble or strangers on the street?
Verne, I'm a big believer in being human; that maintaining sobriety is the hardest thing I know *I* have ever tried to do; and that I hope you aren't angry with yourself.Personally I can say that I have found babble to be a really big trigger for me. Due entirely to my habit of reading posts that I'm fairly certain will have that effect. I'm better at choosing my timing now, and don't feverishly read through threads, getting heated and agitated by what I read. I just wait until my head is calmer, knowing that what's waiting for me on the board most likely does not need my reckless posting as a response to well, just about anything you can name.
As for drinking? I'd say that you've responded in a very human way to feeling crummy (after all, you couldn't feel any worse while sick). It reminds me that there is much I need to change about myself before I'm healthy. I'm using workbooks and daily readings and meditation which are a real departure for me, the "I can't see how these things can possibly help me" skeptic. But I'm giving them a try, teaching myself to pause and reflect now before reacting.
I also hope that you allow yourself the gratitude for the 91 days you accumulated - way to go!! And maybe think about what you'd like to do differently next time. Maybe you could write about it here? Not a "I should have..." list but a "next time, I'll..." list. And set yourself those goals. Keep them within your reach. No personality tranplantations allowed; those still belong in the realm of science fiction.
wishing you a calm (day or night?)
up in the middle of the night ClearSkies
Posted by alexandra_k on October 19, 2005, at 7:21:20
In reply to Drinking Again, posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 18:09:50
> I hesitate posting my failure at 91 days since it may not be much encouragement for others.
Thats not failure. Thats 91 days of success and that sounds like a damned good effort to me :-) And I'm sure there are many more days where those came from :-)
> I find life meaningless. I was even touched by "God", born again, and I still can't get by the meaninglessness.
meaninglessness
emptiness
boredom
a kind of gnawing in your gut type feeling?
i get that...
a bit.what things in life do you find meaningful.
what sorts of things can you take pleasure from?
what sorts of things do you value?those sorts of things might be able to be built on so the feeling isn't so pervasive. maybe...
> It's like I don't give a rip whether people like me anymore.
is it maybe... that it has been a long while since you have felt connected to another human being? lost hope of such a connection?
> Something touched me but I can't define it. I cringe when people talk in a familiar way, like they are pals with God.
maybe you want... some of that?
to feel part of things
and appreciated
and valued?i like you verne. you crack me up. your little escapade over on pc was a riot!!! (though i know i really shouldn't encourage you). and you are pretty honest and straight up which i find admirable. did you enjoy your early christmas? lol.
i wish i could do something to help.
> I'll be quiet.please don't become a stranger.
Posted by AuntieMel on October 19, 2005, at 8:56:25
In reply to Drinking Again, posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 18:09:50
Can we change the wording of the subject line?
How about from "drinking again" to "I drank again"
A slip is only a slip if you don't get back up.
90 days is further than most people make it, you know. It is something to be proud of and nobody can take that away from you.
The little addict guy on your shoulder is telling you that you're a failure. Don't listen to him. His only desire is to actually *make* you a failure. The disease tells you that you can't do it so why bother. He tells you the bottle is the only thing that understands you.
Get mad at him. Tell him he's a liar and a cheat and he can't tell you what to do any more.
And the next time the little guy tries to get you to give in, remember how you feel right now. Don't picture how good it would be to take that drink, picture it in your head all the way to the end and remember how you feel about it right now. And then tell the little dude where to put it.
And don't worry about the "dry drunk" bit. I think everyone is like that early on.
Posted by Declan on October 19, 2005, at 15:01:20
In reply to Drinking Again, posted by verne on October 18, 2005, at 18:09:50
Look, 91 days is extraordinary. About 4 years ago I did 7 or was it 5. This year I *might* have managed 2.
3 months, verne, it's a long time without a drink. I remind myself regularly that if I can't moderate my drinking I won't be able to drink at all. I'd have to find a hut in the wilderness somewhere.
Declan
Posted by verne on October 19, 2005, at 17:36:04
In reply to Re: Drinking Again, posted by Declan on October 19, 2005, at 15:01:20
I feel like my clock has been cleaned and wagon fixed all in one night. Sicker than ever and doing a little "remedial" drinking.
low in the saddle
v
Posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 14:38:43
In reply to Re: Drinking Again, posted by verne on October 19, 2005, at 17:36:04
For a substance use board this is pretty tame stuff. I guess we're all past it. If you're wopping into substances you're not gonna hang around the computer, or typing would be beyond you.
Thinking about musil, wherever his post is, have you read "The Man Without Qualities", verne?
I remember being keen on it.
Declan
Posted by verne on October 21, 2005, at 14:53:24
In reply to Re: Drinking Again » verne, posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 14:38:43
I haven't read it but remember that my roommate in college recommended it. Been years since I heard that title mentioned.
Verne
Posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 17:02:46
In reply to Man Without Qualities » Declan, posted by verne on October 21, 2005, at 14:53:24
Anything reflecting the acheing nostalgia for a better earlier time in Central Europe post WW1 I found fascinating. Joseph Roth's books too.
Declan
Posted by verne on October 21, 2005, at 18:19:35
In reply to Re: Man Without Qualities » verne, posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 17:02:46
Same roommate had read "The Decline of the West" by Oswald Spengler. I think he devoted an entire chapter to the color brown. (if you dare read the unabridged version)
Verne
Posted by verne on October 21, 2005, at 18:27:13
In reply to Re: Drinking Again » verne, posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 14:38:43
but I manage to get blocked or banned for life with my drunken typing. I can't even start over with a new incarnation at one site and I've been blocked a few times here. (think I'm up to six weeks)
I'm not much of a chatter or message boarder (down to just a couple sites) but I seem to post more when I'm drinking, or about to drink.
Perhaps I'm not as sick as I let on, since hypochonrdia is one of my symptoms.
Verne
Posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 21:25:44
In reply to Decline of the West » Declan, posted by verne on October 21, 2005, at 18:19:35
There are 2 books essential to an education of the period involved that I haven't read, Decline of the West, and Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I don't live near a library. What else? "Children of Arbat", "Into the Whirlwind" by Evgenia Ginsburg and "Kolyma Tales" by Shalimov. I need a mood brightener.
Declan
Posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 2:19:38
In reply to Re: Drinking Again » verne, posted by Declan on October 21, 2005, at 14:38:43
I sympathize Verne, as i am sure do most that read this. We have all been there(by the way Declan, i don't think calling Verne's or anyone else's substance problems "tame" helps anyone. We all have different levels of use/abuse and they affect us all equally as differently). I assume because you are counting days of sobriety that you are part of some form of the 12 step program, Verne. If so, I have some possibly radical advise for you. DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. Don't beat yourself up over your choice to drink that night or this night or future nights. That night was no different than the rest, the choice will always be there; Drink or Don't. I know, that sounds simple. I know that, in contrast,you have been told that you have no power over your addiction. But, just for a few paragraphs, I want you to open up a bit. One day that night, that choice, will be The Choice. And you never think about it again.
Firstly, I think counting sober days like you are a recipe for disaster. It is basically just counting the days until you eventually "slip", counting the days until failure. When this happens, your "slip", the result is quite obvious. Now not only are you drinking, but you are drinking and you feel 91 times worse about youself for doing so. We all know where that sort of self-defeating thought leads: more drinking. The number of sober days really means little. To make it a central element, to go to sleep and chalk off another day you managed to keep the vicious beast at bay, is taking away from what is truely central: not drinking.
In fact, I think the entire 12-step program sets you up for failures just like this. Some of their basic principals (the "Non Choice", counting days, going to meetings), when examined, are completely destructive. Most importantly, you HAVE a choice, you HAVE power, you CAN decide to drink or not to drink. If you believe you have no power over your addiction, 12 step programs will keep you "recovering" for the rest of your life. Instead of taking personal responsibility for your problem, you replace alcohol with groups and coins and counting days. If you follow their creed, one way or another, you will be thinking about alcohol for the rest of your life. I love the term they give you: Recovering Alcoholic. Is "recovering" for the rest of your life really what you want to do? Is this what you imagine as freedom from your addiction? I don't know about you, Verne, but I would rather just drink. If my only other option is to just think about drinking, and talk about drinking, and pray about drinking, without ever drinking, s@#t, I'll take a Belvenie up. You have escaped no bars, just switched jail cells.
Coversely, I say be proud you didn't drink, 91 days or whatever, good for you! I know how hard it is, believe me. Just next time, try making a philosophical Choice, not a daily "hope" like AA asks. Find a way to make your choice count. You will know when it happens. From every ounce of your being, you will know: I don't drink anymore. When you do (I believe it is possible to all those that truly want freedom), I promise the only days you will be counting are the ones you wasted in AA. With them, you will always be an alcoholic. Without them, you have a shot at being a regular guy. I am pretty sure that is what most of us are after.My two cents. I hope I didn't offend you, Verne, or anyone else in a 12-step program. I know it has helped many in many different ways. Its mild success, however, to me, does not mean we should quit exploring other means of sobriety. I recently found a few websites (try rational.org), that looks at addiction differently. If nothing else, it shows there are alternatives for people like me that disagree with 12-step programs. I wish you the best whichever method you choose.
Posted by Declan on November 1, 2005, at 12:46:30
In reply to Re: Drinking Again, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 2:19:38
Hi CG, I hope it wasn't taken like that by verne or anyone else, there just didn't seem to be a lot of weird substance use going on. No reflection intended on the difficulties of not drinking. I was probably thinking of medhed injecting his special variant san pedro cactus with l-dopa to increase the mescaline concentration. Far be it from me etc, I just wanted to be entertained more, and the board has been a bit quiet. I haven't been up to much myself either.
All the best
Declan
Posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 17:26:42
In reply to Re: Drinking Again » CleverGuy, posted by Declan on November 1, 2005, at 12:46:30
LOL Declan. No offense taken; I really didn't think you meant any nor do I really think it was taken that way. I just wanted to make it clear in case Verne might have read it differently than you intended. And while I cannot give you an good IV stories, I have plenty of other good anecdotes to share. I'll spice it up next time with some of my absurdities. Take care.
Posted by verne on November 1, 2005, at 23:20:07
In reply to Re: Drinking Again, posted by CleverGuy on November 1, 2005, at 2:19:38
I'll check that website, rational.org out.
I'm not in any sort of program although AA and spiritual approaches have helped in the past - to an extent.
What struck me about AA and 12-step programs was that so much time was spent "not" drinking they hadn't escaped their addiction afterall. But in the end a dry drunk is probably less harmful to the captive.
When I was the most free of my problem with alcohol, I had surrendered - there was a letting go and a kind of spiritual rebirth. This surprised me since, in the past, I had dismissed anything spiritual as really bad philosophy.
After my religious experience I hopped from church to church, played the tambourine at full-gospel revivals, and tried various forms of prayer. Eventually I became disillusioned with how man-made, self-centered, and worldly it all seemed.
I neither knew nor loved God, and wasn't about to invent one for that purpose. I seemed to be the only one not on speaking terms with God. Nevertheless, something had touched me and I experienced peace, love, and freedom from addiction like never before.
Somehow I've found my way back to my previous state of misery and mixed metaphors. I guess I tried to change horses in midstream and fell between them. To continue with the metaphor, or to beat a dead horse,(another horse) I've lost my footing and find myself being swept downstream.
i'll be quiet.
verne
Posted by antigua on November 2, 2005, at 12:52:17
In reply to Up a Creek » CleverGuy, posted by verne on November 1, 2005, at 23:20:07
well, grab hold of these branches floating by because there are many of us here who want to lean out to help bring you in. Don't give up, keep trying, don't give up on yourself. We haven't.
antigua
Posted by verne on November 2, 2005, at 16:41:07
In reply to Re: Up a Creek, posted by antigua on November 2, 2005, at 12:52:17
Thanks for the encouragement.
5 days sober and starting to feel well enough to peek into the kitchen. I see dirty dishes, a cluttered table, some unopened boxes from iherb and iamshaman and some empty beer bottles not so well hidden beneath the table. Just looking at the mess is enough. I call it a day and slink away.
I wonder whether another horse will wander into this thread? I've lost track of all the horses I've ridden into the ground.
allright, I'll stop with the horses.
verne
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