![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 9 to 33 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:00:15
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
This is what I saw when I went to the site to check out the downloaded text:
"Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here."
In order to read the text, I would have to join the group, and I am told that joining implies endorsement.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:06:48
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 23:40:50
This response to my post was added to the end of a response to someone else:
"P.S.
If we had a nickel for every overnight cure...
Yea?.. and if my sister had balls she'd be my brother what up? You need a nickel? I'll give you a dime.This got me off of crack in one day and it's free!
Talk about money degrades healing so stuff it I'M OUT.See you on the T.V. The documentary channel. I'll make sure to down load your words of wisdom for all occasions. Can we call you at home for the interview. I can't wait to see what bloody axiom you'll spout next. I told you I wasn't intelligent, just sober. :)
Talk among yourselves I just realized by the idiots post the caliber of the group. He must of had someone take the entrance test for him (lol).
Page 7.) John Wesley founder of Methodism wrote in 1760 "How much sickness
and pain may be prevented or removed and how many lives saved by this UNPARALLEL'D REMEDY. And yet with what Vehemence has it been opposed?"(Page 10.) last line in paragraph 2. Stanford University Professor Alberto
Bandura concludes "It appears that behavioral technics can accomplish these
goals in a GREAT many cases".Later gold bricker. "
Actually, I'm a woman. And you can post to me directly, if you'd like.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:24:00
In reply to Re: If we had a nickel for every overnight cure... » yellowbrickroad, posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2005, at 23:42:25
I have found, to my own surprise, that there is a lot to like about AA and NA, too. That came when I met several people in different meetings who were not at all like those I had encountered for years.
I've actually found some good meetings, too.
My previous bad experiences had to do with certain groups that, IMO, distorted the program into a RELENTLESS quest for flaws, failings, and sins. All that constant self-examination began with some kind of assumption that we were there to root out the evil in us. It was more like a cult, in that way.
But I've since met sober people who don't do it like that. At all. And I always think that the free sources of help (like AA) are invaluable.
I have often wondered if the reason I found my way to the "bad" groups for such a long time is that their message was a strong one, and it spoke to the self-hatred I was filled with. Now that I'm older and less interested in finding out "what's wrong with me," I'm more likely to find the supportive people in the program. In any event, I'm glad that I can still consider AA to be an option. And I'm glad that I live in an area with so many meetings that it's possible to find ones where I'm comfortable.
YBR
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:35:41
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 0:30:10
This is what I saw when I went to the site to check out the downloaded text:
"Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a
highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here."
In order to read the text, I would have to join the group, and I am
told that joining implies endorsement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~You can join JUST long enough to read the book. as for not knowing the proper terms I apologise I was only 15 when I went to college and it has been a long eventful life since then.
Only thingy i remember is respect for others and not putting up with el censorshipos who talk first and never apologise for their offences later.
What are you so afraid of? I have more practical ( prima facie ) knowledge of this therapy than anyone one Earth. I'm doing a documntary on it this month. I have been on brodcast in the Us and Mexico in two languages.
I teach politicians and doctors alike. Its analgolus to a lesbian eating another lesbian, she can do it better because she has had one for years. I don't think you ever have. Done Faradic Aversion Therapy. I mean, you probably think its E.C.T. Thanks for beating me over the head with the basic psy.1. course, I am sure thats why you learned it. Did you read the part about Bi-polarism? You can call me right now. I am not a bad person or masia (sp?/meaning?) or snake oiler.
I always get beat up by people like you who so desperatly try to protect their tuff. I'am not a threat to anyone. I came here on new years day to give what I could to help others. What did I do wrong? The TIME
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:42:44
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:35:41
Why can't I read the text without joining the group? It says on the site that joining implies endorsement. That means I would have to endorse it in order to gain access to the information in the first place.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:42:44
> Why can't I read the text without joining the group? It says on the site that joining implies endorsement. That means I would have to endorse it in order to gain access to the information in the first place.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The book is out of print or I would send you one. I will however re-word the page so it doesn't offend you and you can peruse the text at your leasure. You can send me the right words to use by this medium or directly to my e-mail via my faradism.net contact form.
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:55:43
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
And when/where will your TV appearance take place?
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:57:57
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
It's about endorsing something in order to read about it.
What if I don't want to send a message to my Congressman that I support this method?
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:02:36
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 1:55:43
> And when/where will your TV appearance take place?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The appearances I have don't are listed at the bottom of my faradism.net page. The documentary is a work in progress with a gentleman and lady I met at a probation/parole job fair. They are supposed to calling me sometime this month.Now what do you want changed on the group pages?
The TIME
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:37
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 1:47:14
One of these might open I can't see them because I have a web TV unit and it can't make them resolve. http://proper.itgo.com/ThePunishmentCure.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%2520Punishment%2520Cure.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%20Punishment%20Cure2.jpg
http://proper.itgo.com/The%20Punishment%20Cure.jpg
The TIME
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » yellowbrickroad, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 2:02:36
I do have to say that it is strange to say you have to endorse it before you can read it. How do you know whether you want to endorse it or not until you have read it?
I think that what is hard to take is that you seem to be portraying this as a 'wondercure' for addiction. Just like how there are 'wondercure' ways to lose weight, or whatever. It sounds like your technique worked great for you, and that it has worked great for some other people too. That is terrific. But maybe be a bit cautious about overextending that to ALL people with addiction.
Seeing as this is all very behaviouristically oriented and all it is worth considering the relationship between 'determination' and cesation once again. According to behaviourism either (a) there aren't any mental states or (b) mental state terms refer to classes of behaviour. On the first analysis 'determination' is meaningless, a 'mentalism'. On the second, the mark of determination is cessation. If you cease then you were determined, if you do not cease then you were not determined. If you don't like this (most find it unpalatable) then perhaps it can be taken to illustrate that while behavourism may be ok insofar as it goes it leaves something very important out of the picture indeed.
P.S. on timing. So you say that in this instance the punisher is meant to be administered at the SAME TIME. The same time as what, exactly - an urge to use? A thought of using? In the behaviourist literature I have encountered (not a heck of a lot of it thank god) timing has indeed been an issue. They want to know the optimal time between the stimuli and the reinforcer so as to better control the behavioural output they require. I thought that same time delivery was very hard to come by indeed. If we are talking delivery in response to an urge or a thought then there inevitably will be a time delay. First you have to notice, and then you have to deliver. Quickly, to be sure, but I don't think that 'at the same time' is as effective as immediately (unscientific sorry) after.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 3:51:52
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
I do have to say that it is strange to say you have to endorse it before you can read it. How do you know whether you want to endorse it or not until you have read it?
~~~~~~~
This is what you would be endorsing, it is on the cover page before you join:
Antediluvian short cut to drug,nicotine and alcohol craving extinction. The primary purpose of this e-group will be to bring together for public dissemination, information about Faradic Drug and Alcohol Abuse Free Resistance Aversion Training or Counter-Imprinting. Faradism is a psychotronic application employing a common "Tens Unit" that is used to deliver a small electrical skin shock (to the hand) pared with targeted behaviors which eliminates ALL desires to drink, smoke or use. Works great with diet and libido control too. This got me off of crack in 1 day, alcohol in 2 days and cigarettes in 3 days. This group is for those who feel baseline cognitive and other adjunct group talk/faith therapies have failed them and are willing to acquiesce to newer more practical or intensive forms of therapy. Roberto "like the \\//\\// || //\\// ]]))" Carbajal 915-833-4602
wWw.FARADISM.net
Your joining these groups endorses the method in question and sends a highly needed message to politicians and news broadcasters to start Faradism Clinics around the world or to disseminate information to help people develop their own faradic technic. Post any pertinent information or questions here.
Electrodiet group
EMOTIONAL CONTROL Group
FaradicSexResistance group
Black Box method of quitting Drugs!
Shock box diagram
"The Punishment Cure" Book
EN ESPANOL
~~~~~~~~~~~
I think that what is hard to take is that you seem to be portraying this as a 'wondercure' for addiction. Just like how there are 'wondercure' ways to lose weight, or whatever. It sounds like your technique worked great for you, and that it has worked great for some other people too. That is terrific. But maybe be a bit cautious about overextending that to ALL people with addiction. Point taken. Seeing as this is all very behaviouristically oriented and all it is worth considering the relationship between 'determination' and cessation once again. According to behaviourism either (a) there aren't any mental states or (b) mental state terms refer to classes of behaviour. On the first analysis 'determination' is meaningless, a 'mentalism'. On the second, the mark of determination is cessation. If you cease then you were determined, if you do not cease then you were not determined. If you don't like this (most find it unpalatable) then perhaps it can be taken to illustrate that while behaviorism may be ok insofar as it goes it leaves something very important out of the picture indeed.
~~~~~~
You mean like the 12 step social model does? "The new approach to alcoholism puts practicality before ideology.What works? Keeping motivation high, for starters. And it's not even necessary to admit you are an alcoholic to curb drinking".
~~~~~~~~~
P.S. on timing. So you say that in this instance the punisher is meant to be administered at the SAME TIME. The same time as what, exactly - an urge to use? A thought of using? In the behaviourist literature I have encountered (not a heck of a lot of it thank god) timing has indeed been an issue. They want to know the optimal time between the stimuli and the reinforcer so as to better control the behavioural output they require. I thought that same time delivery was very hard to come by indeed. If we are talking delivery in response to an urge or a thought then there inevitably will be a time delay. First you have to notice, and then you have to deliver. Quickly, to be sure, but I don't think that 'at the same time' is as effective as immediately (unscientific sorry) after.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If I could type I would have told you before you asked. If you had read my web page or group messages you would have found the answer to any question you could possible ask. I smoked a ( just to let you know that the moment I started writing this sentence I got hit by disgust because i had to reminisce about the drug! ) twenty dollar rock WHILE I took a self administered electroversion to my left hand and this was so easy. I had one of the apparatus ( dimmer switch ) electrodes taped to my trigger finger while I held the other by digital opposition. The pipe was in between.
I did the same with the alcohol and cigarettes. So did the Therapist who cured the baby. She was throwing up all the food she ingested. Not that she wouldn't ingest. she would but would then throw it up involuntarily. The shocks were given while she threw up. Kagen and Halveman (sp?) Psy.1.
http://members.tripod.com/~s_croll/crackcure/id6.html
"""""""""""""""""""""""
"The programs most alcoholics choose are based on the Minnesota Model, which
views alcoholism as an incurable disease. It involves group counseling to
confront a "denying" drunk, education about alcohol's consequences, and confessional self-help organizations like the AA. There are already cracks in the Minnesota Model's clinical monopoly. Although the personal experiences of thousands of alcoholics attest to the model's value, its failure rate--about 50 percent--reveals the futility of assembly-line
treatment. Indeed, aversion therapy, stress-management, and family therapy are
proving effective for many alcoholics".http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940901-000025.html
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Alternative Alcoholism Treatment-Drug Rehab Center: Schick Shadel Hospital
Alternative Alcoholism Treatment-Drug Rehab Center: Schick Shadel Hospital #1 Success Rate in The World
http://www.schick-shadel.com"The fact that the owners of Schick Shadel are ALL former patients says a lot about the success of our addiction treatments. While we were all thrilled that our lives were given back to us in a ridiculously short amount of time at the hospital, we still had to make a business decision on our investment. When you knew first hand that Schick's medical treatment for chemical dependency worked, the decision to invest in Schick Shadel was an easy one".
Posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 4:33:31
In reply to Re: Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 2:23:52
hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced, and there is a dearth of literature from the esteemed authors smith and frawley. included by mr. carbajal is a link to a reprint of a ``famous article'' by smith, frawley, and polissar. i note that frawley's CV containes numerous factual errors. fortunately, i have access online to the ISI science citation index (i am a theoretical chemical physicist, holding a Ph.D. in the area(s)), and the article is actually double-published, in two journals: j. addictive diseases (1997, and cited a grand total of 4 times in the past 7 years); and alcoholism-clin. exp. res (1991, cited 11 times in 14 years). the esteemed dr. frawley has a total of 16 refereed citations in the literature (1984 - 1997), 4 of which are 1-page letters to the editor commenting on other work; and 1 is a meeting abstract. of the 11 actual publications, the big winner for citations - 14 since publication in 1990 - is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,'' with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley's chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was umployed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste'' of the real thing.
the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect'' that has been reported to ``cure'' epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one's bank account.
a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics - induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces periodic bursts or, on a lower level, more frequent oscillations of the magnetic field (from the second inductor).
this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play with the electric field within the noggin, and there are bits and pieces in the literature every once in a while yet this methodology is most of utility in constructing transformers.
the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
In reply to thought i'd drop by..., posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 4:33:31
hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced
~~~~~~~~~~~~
You state this in the plural. All I "cited" was the journal of addictive medicine
~~~~~~~~~~~
is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,´´ with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley´s chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was employed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste´´ of the real thing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My apologies I'm just a total idiot that learns by testing and doing not by reading about what somebody else done. And you are mistaken as to who the study was made on. They did use faradic therapy and chemical aversion. The faradic showed higher success since it is more controllable. Read the post. As to a placebo Crack cocaine, You are "en lo correcto" my bombastic friend. If you used the real thing you would be busted (that means incarcerated for the foreigners ejumucation ). BUT if you did use the real thing as I did then you would target the real reason people use crack and thats for the rush not the taste. Thus making it much more treatable. Your is like tooting on a straw to get someone to quit smoking tobacco. Doctor Please.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Excuse me they were bought and sold a few years back and now it is run by former patients. Read the web I provided.
~~~~~~~~~~
faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect´´ that has been reported to ``cure´´ epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one´s bank account.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What I propose is a do it your selfer. It cost me a five dollar dimmer switch and a rock. N. V. Kantorovich 1920` findings were largely ignored page 21 para 3 & 4 the Punishment cure. page 22 para 1. " The uncertainties are compounded by the bitter backbiting in the alcoholism research field, with investigators who have put all their life work and reputation into one basket jealously guarding it, while trying to tip over the basket of the kid down the street. "
~~~~~~~~~~~
a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics
- induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Whatever has nothing to do with a dimmer switch or aversion conditioning. One guy in Japan used the pain from bee stings.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play.....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
whatever, Electric eels were used before them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
with the electric field within the noggin,
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Its only to one hand. It never goes near the "noggin". You guys and your fancy terms.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
~~~~~~~~~~
The schematic comes with the "toy" (actually it is a test kit for electrical engineers in Mexico given as extra course credit. Distributed by http://www.steren.com.mx
I have a sears one from 1906 I don't think you could not fathom out how it works. It involves physics. But you couldn't make as much money on that as the dope hu?
The Mexicans have dozens of ways of constructing "cajas de toques" or in the vernacular "chicharras". Thats not the point. You could use vinegar as a punisher or a tattooing for that matter, any thing but your dope. Off course YOU would want to get us off dope with dope :) Thats where the pesos are Hu my pecuniary minded friend. And in my group pages are other ways of making one. I invite you to post yours anonymously if your scared of losing money ). I followed the schematic and it worked fine. I am not a capitalist pig. I don't sell or advertise S*it. I am only working hard to save my people from drug dealers and drug makers who now run the FDA. who probably have money invested chemical concoctions the made in a wood shed.
The http://www.Schick-shadel.com center advertises that if you can smoke a cigarette in front of them in 5 days they will give you your money back. Wana take that bet? Just send someone who smokes there and put them to the test. Thats what your complaining about right? Not any test good enough for you?
Unless it involves dope cures. You and FDA are in for an awakening my tumid compadre. The days of drug dealers and drug makers are running out. Were taking responsibility for our own cures now and the very near future will prove me right.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you Roberto carbajal welder ( freedom fighter. Musket Dueling Champion of the World )
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheDuel
Posted by yellowbrickroad on January 2, 2005, at 10:33:11
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
Hasn't anyone ever seen "A Clockwork Orange"?
YBR
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 12:21:17
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
Because addiction has no solitary cause, the new view toward it demands that
single-minded approaches to drug treatment be abandoned. At least four studies, according to William Miller, have found no differences between groups of
alcoholics assigned to Alcoholics Anonymous and to no treatment at all. AA
simply doesn't work for a lot of people.The investigators, William Miller and Catherine Baca, M.D., of the University
of New Mexico's Center on Alcoholism, Substance Abuse and Addictions:
he says, the chug treatment community has been curiously resistant to using
what works. His colleague, Reed Hester, after a review of treatment outcomes
from 1980 to 1990, concluded that "despite much more knowledge of what works, treatment for substance abuse hasn't changed much in 40 years."
"Then we went looking for what was really happening. We gave one group the
manual and another group no manual. The manual turned out to be the variable
that was the potent treatment. But why?
"The key was that we had inadvertently motivated the control group and in spite
of our expectations, the addicts changed and moderated their drinking. Simply
giving them the manual, saying to them that we believed they could help
themselves, could handle it, you can do this, was enough."Feedback--specific and tailored to the individual, not general;
Responsibility--it's up to you, your choice, you are not a helpless victim of a
disease;Advice--firm and clear recommendations; Menu--there are different ways
to work this out; Empathy--the best therapists have this and are neither pushy
nor confrontational, but supportive and warm; and Self-efficacy--you can do it;
empowerment."Warm turkey." Tapering down and "sobriety sampling" give addicts a chance to kick their habits and help them not give up if they fail.
In the hands of trained therapists, this and other forms of "relapse prevention"
teaches addicts skills for coping with mistakes and setbacks. These methods also allow for moderate continuation of some addictions for some people, rather than insisting on total abstinence.
Some patients claim it not only stops cravings for long periods without
withdrawal, but also suppresses all desire for any drugs and generates an
emotional confrontation with their own thoughts and feelings, during which they
are inspired to reorganize their lives.Until now, says Miller, behavioral scientists have stuck to the conviction that
real change, if it happens at all, is gradual and painstaking. Now, says Miller,
we know that "relatively sudden and profound changes can and do occur, at least occasionally." If that capability could be harnessed, the impact on addiction
could be profound.Aversion therapy.
Toni Farrenkopf uses aversion conditioning to treat addictions, particularly those involving gambling and sexual behavior. He's worked with patients for whom a single incident of voyeurism, or indecent exposure, sometimes at a very early age, was so arousing that the addiction held
for decades."What we've learned is that people who are voyeurs and exposers are addicted to
the rush they get from contemplating, planning, and doing the behavior, not
necessarily from sexual release itself. With pedophiles, other factors drive the
addiction. But in all cases, you want to try and countercondition the behavior."Aversive therapy works by introducing negative consequences immediately after
the pleasurable experience occurs. One reason that many people don't become
addicted is that they rarely experience the worst consequences of their behavior
soon enough to override the pleasure.Farrenkopf uses covert sensitization with imagery. He'll show a sexual addict
arrest scenarios--being handcuffed, jailed, searched--10 seconds after an erotic
exposure and do this repeatedly. Or he'll expose them to a noxious odor or
painfully snap a rubber band on a wrist. "I help the patients experience all of
the painful things that happen when they are caught, or have to confront their
families after getting caught," he says. "It works for many."http://cms.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19940901-000021.html
Posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 20:23:49
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 6:25:15
hello again, my comments delineated by asterisks below...all the best, chemist
> hello there...first of all, the citations given in the original post by mr. carbajal are incorrectly referenced
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> You state this in the plural. All I "cited" was the journal of addictive medicine*** actually you posted an abstract for an article that is published on-line, and is actually double-published over a six-year period. ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> is by frawley and smith and concerns ``chemical aversion therapy in the treatment of cocaine dependence,´´ with a cohort of 20 patients - all customers of drs. smith and frawley´s chain of 10-day cure Schick Shadel Hospital in Santa Barbara - and faradic therapy was not used: rather, a cocaine substitute was employed to hasten aversion to the ``sight, smell, and taste´´ of the real thing.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*** the article i cite - and i do have actual journal reprint, not an abstract - is exactly about chemical aversion and faradic treatment is not invoked at all. i highly recommend that you actually read journal articles before you attempt to defend what the subject matter contained therein is about. i suggest a university/medical school library. ****
> My apologies I'm just a total idiot that learns by testing and doing not by reading about what somebody else done. And you are mistaken as to who the study was made on. They did use faradic therapy and chemical aversion. The faradic showed higher success since it is more controllable. Read the post. As to a placebo Crack cocaine, You are "en lo correcto" my bombastic friend. If you used the real thing you would be busted (that means incarcerated for the foreigners ejumucation ). BUT if you did use the real thing as I did then you would target the real reason people use crack and thats for the rush not the taste. Thus making it much more treatable. Your is like tooting on a straw to get someone to quit smoking tobacco. Doctor Please.
*** again, read the articles. in real journals. ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
> the schick shadel hospitals are worth investigating: they are pay-as-you-go betty-ford style clinics run by businessmen with medical degrees.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Excuse me they were bought and sold a few years back and now it is run by former patients. Read the web I provided.*** i did. hence, the medical degree businessman comment. and they are pay-as-you-go. i assume you do object to the betty ford ref, i suspect? *****
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> faradic therapy is a perpetuation of anecdotal and placebo-like ``effect´´ that has been reported to ``cure´´ epilepsy 150+ years ago and remains a great way to fatten one´s bank account.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> What I propose is a do it your selfer. It cost me a five dollar dimmer switch and a rock. N. V. Kantorovich 1920` findings were largely ignored page 21 para 3 & 4 the Punishment cure. page 22 para 1. " The uncertainties are compounded by the bitter backbiting in the alcoholism research field, with investigators who have put all their life work and reputation into one basket jealously guarding it, while trying to tip over the basket of the kid down the street. "> ~~~~~~~~~~~
> a primary inductor - a conducting, wound coil with electrical current normal to the magnetic field, as per the fundamentals of electrodynamics
> - induces an electric current in a second inductor, coupled with a resistor which in turn produces.....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
*** actually, it does: it is exactly how Faraday induction works. if you are going to make claims about therapy based upon a physical concepts proven experimentally and quantified two centuies ago, you should at least be aware of how the process works. ****
> Whatever has nothing to do with a dimmer switch or aversion conditioning. One guy in Japan used the pain from bee stings.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> this is as old (literally) as faraday and maxwell. the rTMS business of late is the same business being pushed by mr. carbajal, albeit in a much more professional and controlled manner. the magnetic field is alleged to play.....
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~*** ``whatever?'' even more reason to question your claims. so why are you not using bee venom or electric eels? too expensive, or too hard to market over the internet? ****
> whatever, Electric eels were used before them.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> with the electric field within the noggin,
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~**** wrong. your nerves do eventually involve some interation with your brain. otherwise, are you suggesting that the aversion therapy is working because you receive a pulse of induced electric field to the hand with which you might grasp a can of beer, perhaps? ****
> Its only to one hand. It never goes near the "noggin". You guys and your fancy terms.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> the above comments are not meant to be uncivil, but rather to inform the unknowing that behind a yahoo web site is a whole lot of nothing: the electrodynamics/statics, dearth of literature, questionable private-sector promotions, and downright evidence that addictions are better addressed by so many proven and effective remedies (e.g., imipramine for cocaine), not to mention the blatant advertising on this site for a toy electrical device for which the schematics are not correct, should be interpreted as nothing but factual information denying this person's claims.
> ~~~~~~~~~~
> The schematic comes with the "toy" (actually it is a test kit for electrical engineers in Mexico given as extra course credit. Distributed by http://www.steren.com.mx
> I have a sears one from 1906 I don't think you could not fathom out how it works. It involves physics. But you couldn't make as much money on that as the dope hu?*** i do not make money on ``dope.'' ****
> The Mexicans have dozens of ways of constructing "cajas de toques" or in the vernacular "chicharras". Thats not the point.*** yes, the Mexican government has been a leader in the area of pain administration for a long time: i believe Amnesty International has been a very interested onlooker *****
You could use vinegar as a punisher or a tattooing for that matter, any thing but your dope. Off course YOU would want to get us off dope with dope :)
**** i never stated what you assert. i would actually prefer that YOU not imply otherwise. ****
Thats where the pesos are Hu my pecuniary minded friend. And in my group pages are other ways of making one. I invite you to post yours anonymously if your scared of losing money ). I followed the schematic and it worked fine.
*** are you sure? what about the 1906 Sears model? and the schematic: that is fodder for a whole different discussion...****
I am not a capitalist pig. I don't sell or advertise S*it.
**** you are selling and advertising. the product does happen to be S*it, in so many ways. *****
I am only working hard to save my people from drug dealers and drug makers who now run the FDA.
**** drug dealers run the FDA? it is far from a perfect organization, yet i know that government jobs require a background check. perhaps the drug dealers have not been incarcerated or arrested and were recruited from the streets to help run the FDA? ****
who probably have money invested chemical concoctions the made in a wood shed.
**** can you please clarify what the above ``sentence'' means? gracias....****
> The http://www.Schick-shadel.com center advertises that if you can smoke a cigarette in front of them in 5 days they will give you your money back. Wana take that bet? Just send someone who smokes there and put them to the test. Thats what your complaining about right? Not any test good enough for you?
**** i do not smoke. i do not have to make that bet, and i am not ``complaining'' about any test being good enough for me. i am constantly complaining about the extreme ignorance displayed by people who peddle miracle cures as well as those who take them. ****
> Unless it involves dope cures. You and FDA are in for an awakening my tumid compadre. The days of drug dealers and drug makers are running out. Were taking responsibility for our own cures now and the very near future will prove me right.
*** let's hope the future involves proper use of the apostrophe by the faradic cult of wisdom, yes? ****
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> all the best, chemist (and physicist too...)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Thank you Roberto carbajal welder ( freedom fighter. Musket Dueling Champion of the World )
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheDuel
>
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 21:38:20
In reply to Re: thought i'd drop by... » Faradism.net, posted by chemist on January 2, 2005, at 20:23:49
Obviously you didn't bother to read my first post. I am not a merchant. I don't "pedal" anything but a bike. Class is indicative and I don't think it comes from typing the proper syntax and the other typos you raised your college educated nose at. I apologize if my actions and motives offended you or anyone who reads the prior post. I am ashamed to have let myself get dragged down to that level of immaturity. I also would be receptive (tears welling up) to any suggestion that the group might offer. I desperately want to SEE people get better. I want to live in a better world, free from bickering. I don't know how to make this happen without adding to the confusion and pain. I am not a detached man, I have a passion for helping others. I wish you could see and hear from the people my counseling has rescued from the streets of skid row L.A. Before my father happened upon the "caja de toques" I was porting a dimmer switch with wires hanging from it telling people this got me off of crack in one day. I didn't realize it was such a big deal at first except after surviving multiple police assisted murder attempts and nurses and Doctors telling me how lucky I was to have survive and that this thing you call a God has a plan for me...well slow witted me said to myself..uh? I wonder if its that electrical thing? So here I am posting all over the world for years now. Again I apologize.
Roberto carbajal quixotic electro-ironworker. Protector of the all scientist who really want a better world and are humble enough to think their way might not be the only right way. Please forgive me ladies and gentleman and any one of you can call me at 915-833-4602 24/7. 1st.do no harm.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 22:47:49
In reply to For the good of HUMANITY. Nothing is for sale here » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 21:38:20
Hey there. This wasn't really a very good start was it? I am sorry. We are not so bad really once you get to know us.
> I apologize if my actions and motives offended you or anyone who reads the prior post. I am ashamed to have let myself get dragged down to that level of immaturity.
I accept your apology. I also apologise if I offended or hurt you with anything I said. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with you and I didn't like much of what you said - but that doesn't mean that I don't like you or that I find you objectionable as a person.
>I also would be receptive (tears welling up) to any suggestion that the group might offer. I desperately want to SEE people get better. I want to live in a better world, free from bickering. I don't know how to make this happen without adding to the confusion and pain.
Yeah, that is a hard one. Is it just about the drug stuff, or is it about lots of other stuff too? You might do better getting to know people on social or one of the other boards or something. You can help people with friendship. I think of what you have to say as a bit like what some people are like with religion. Sometimes you do ask people you respect for advice, but generally you have to come to respect them first for it to be meaningful. Without that a university education is fairly much the only assurance we have that people do know what they are talking about. Well, that or having studied the same stuff on their own.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 23:38:29
In reply to Re: For the good of HUMANITY. Nothing is for sale here » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2005, at 22:47:49
> Hey there. This wasn't really a very good start was it? I am sorry. We are not so bad really once you get to know us.
>
> > I apologize if my actions and motives offended you or anyone who reads the prior post. I am ashamed to have let myself get dragged down to that level of immaturity.
>
> I accept your apology. I also apologise if I offended or hurt you with anything I said. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with you and I didn't like much of what you said - but that doesn't mean that I don't like you or that I find you objectionable as a person.
>
> >I also would be receptive (tears welling up) to any suggestion that the group might offer. I desperately want to SEE people get better. I want to live in a better world, free from bickering. I don't know how to make this happen without adding to the confusion and pain.
>
> Yeah, that is a hard one. Is it just about the drug stuff, or is it about lots of other stuff too? You might do better getting to know people on social or one of the other boards or something. You can help people with friendship. I think of what you have to say as a bit like what some people are like with religion. Sometimes you do ask people you respect for advice, but generally you have to come to respect them first for it to be meaningful. Without that a university education is fairly much the only assurance we have that people do know what they are talking about. Well, that or having studied the same stuff on their own.
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you alexandra_k. I have always been abl to see through a persons smoke screen. Some people don't like themselves so they make someone up. I could tell you were a real person from the start. None of you seem to have had a substance proble. You all write so well and seem so educated. Can I ask you all what drug or substance had you hooked?
And thanks very much for the kind words. The TIME
Posted by verne on January 2, 2005, at 23:39:09
In reply to Punishment is medicine.Aristotle.Nicomachean Ethic, posted by Faradism.net on January 1, 2005, at 19:51:15
I welcome any new ideas in the area of addiction. I'm sorry we didn't give you a better reception. I think Dr. Bob explains it in terms of online large group dynamics. The pressure builds, there's an eruption of negativity, then calm followed by the cycle repeating itself. (I probably just explained how my mind works)
My life is a 3-ring circus of addictions and I'm game to try almost anything. I've tried numerous alternative therapies and the shock box idea sounds strangely appealing to me. I'm not into pain especially but I have a history of self-injury and still take ice-cold showers every day.
But how will I use it if I've quit drinking? I don't want to resume drinking just to counter-condition it. Perhaps I could use the box for over-eating and other excesses typical of borderline personality disorder.
verne
Posted by chemist on January 3, 2005, at 0:02:46
In reply to For the good of HUMANITY. Nothing is for sale here » chemist, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 21:38:20
hello there, chemist here....my comments below, delineated by asterisks....all the best, chemist
> Obviously you didn't bother to read my first post.
**** come on. of course i read your first post, checked the references, secured the journal articles, went to the schick website, and visited the yahoo group you sponsor: how else would i have been able to frame a lucid and informed post of my own? ****
I am not a merchant. I don't "pedal" anything but a bike. Class is indicative and I don't think it comes from typing the proper syntax and the other typos you raised your college educated nose at.
**** i pedal a bicycle, and do not peddle schemes for miracle cures. typos are what i can best poke my college-educated and properly hyphenated nose at without leaving a preposition dangling from its tip. the altruism you exude is admirable: your support of claims attributed to faradic therapy is not founded in science or refereed literature. your assertions in re: my being a drug dealer and colluding with the FDA are offensive and inaccurate. worse, they read like rants from a conspiracy theorist. ****
I apologize if my actions and motives offended you or anyone who reads the prior post.
**** apology accepted. ****
I am ashamed to have let myself get dragged down to that level of immaturity. I also would be receptive (tears welling up) to any suggestion that the group might offer. I desperately want to SEE people get better. I want to live in a better world, free from bickering. I don't know how to make this happen without adding to the confusion and pain. I am not a detached man, I have a passion for helping others. I wish you could see and hear from the people my counseling has rescued from the streets of skid row L.A. Before my father happened upon the "caja de toques" I was porting a dimmer switch with wires hanging from it telling people this got me off of crack in one day. I didn't realize it was such a big deal at first except after surviving multiple police assisted murder attempts and nurses and Doctors telling me how lucky I was to have survive and that this thing you call a God
**** am i correct in that you state that there were attempts made to murder you, and the perpetrators were assisted by the police? ****
has a plan for me...well slow witted me said to myself..uh? I wonder if its that electrical thing? So here I am posting all over the world for years now. Again I apologize.
**** well, i am fairly confident that Faraday could not have foreseen ``that electrical thing'' being a guide for one's life in the pursuit of freeing the addicted from the addiction: no need to apologize for that! ****
> Roberto carbajal quixotic electro-ironworker. Protector of the all scientist who really want a better world and are humble enough to think their way might not be the only right way.
**** does this imply that you feel because i do not endorse faradic therapy that i only endorse one other method for treating addiction? please clarify, as i might be misreading your post. for the record, it is not the case that i am not open to alternative treatments for any malady. ****
Please forgive me ladies and gentleman and any one of you can call me at 915-833-4602 24/7. 1st.do no harm.
**** i would call, but you do not have a toll-free number. aristotle would find this deeply troubling. ****
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2005, at 17:38:24
In reply to no sale? » Faradism.net, posted by chemist on January 3, 2005, at 0:02:46
> typos are what i can best poke my college-educated and properly hyphenated nose at without leaving a preposition dangling from its tip.
You what?
>i would call, but you do not have a toll-free number. aristotle would find this deeply troubling.
ha ha. Oh goodie, have I found someone else with a warped sense of humour??? (no offence intended).
Wow, chemistry and physics eh? Do you know much about fields of force and point particles??? Cause I am interested if you or anybody you know can explain that kinda stuff in English.
Nice to meet ya.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2005, at 17:45:49
In reply to Re: For the good of HUMANITY. Nothing is for sale here, posted by Faradism.net on January 2, 2005, at 23:38:29
>Some people don't like themselves so they make someone up.
I am afraid that I do this too. It is a weakness of mine :-) But I try to behave in a caring manner though sometimes even that goes out the window for me... I used to have a major problem with Speed, LSD, magic mushrooms, cannibus, benzo's... Well, you name it really. Whatever I could get my hands on. A combo of LSD speed and cannibus for preference though I suppose...
I went through rehabs but no luck. Kicked out for using. I went through AA and NA but no luck, just kept on using. I went back to university and for me that was enough to keep me clean. When it came to choosing between doing my work / going to class or getting high then university won for me every time. I have no idea why my priorities are organised that way. I don't think that strategy would work for everyone. I am lucky I suppose. I still use occasionally. Go on the occasional bender. But varsity is there for me at the end of the day. It is that that keeps me clean.
Posted by Faradism.net on January 3, 2005, at 18:25:10
In reply to smoke screens and real people » Faradism.net, posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2005, at 17:45:49
> >Some people don't like themselves so they make someone up.
>
> I am afraid that I do this too. It is a weakness of mine :-) But I try to behave in a caring manner though sometimes even that goes out the window for me... I used to have a major problem with Speed, LSD, magic mushrooms, cannibus, benzo's... Well, you name it really. Whatever I could get my hands on. A combo of LSD speed and cannibus for preference though I suppose...
>
> I went through rehabs but no luck. Kicked out for using. I went through AA and NA but no luck, just kept on using. I went back to university and for me that was enough to keep me clean. When it came to choosing between doing my work / going to class or getting high then university won for me every time. I have no idea why my priorities are organised that way. I don't think that strategy would work for everyone. I am lucky I suppose. I still use occasionally. Go on the occasional bender. But varsity is there for me at the end of the day. It is that that keeps me clean.
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Well you go girl. I wish I could let go and do some speed but it makes me into a weak, porno seeking.... dangling partcipal. I only do about a 20 and then spend about 100 at the wack-en-hut out in Hollywood. I was fortunate enough to have developed a sever pain to my hand and wrist. They say its corpo tunnel (sp?) syndrome. I say its a gift from the powers that be. Once I noticed the pain after and all nighter at the "hut", I started thinking about the experience and all that goes with the drug while feeling the pain. I would picture my dope dealers face or the drug its self or the subway trip to get there and this killed my thought of using! I still mentaly revist the "Hut" whenever I am in pain. Thanks for sharing. The "whatever, at least its dangling" TIME carbajal P.S. Why are you afraid to call keemo sabe todo?
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