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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 38. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:27:47
In reply to Re: I'm scared, posted by Angela2 on November 8, 2008, at 19:00:39
Thanks Angela. Change is scary too.
Posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:29:14
In reply to Re: I'm scared, posted by llurpsienoodle on November 8, 2008, at 21:24:47
Thanks llurpsie,
I went for a walk. I wasn't upset as I was walking. I'm back now an I'm starting to get upset again after being OK in chat.
Posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:35:48
In reply to I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Deneb, posted by Racer on November 8, 2008, at 21:26:55
I think I have this habit of saying I want to die whenever I feel overwhelming bad emotions and I don't know how to handle them. Having the bad feelings stop would be preferable to death.
I'm sensitive to negative feelings. I tend to get anxious over getting excited, especially if others start getting anxious too. My thoughts then run away from me.
I was in chat and I felt better while in chat.
Right now I'm getting upset again, tearful. I don't know what is up.
I feel like I don't want to face life tomorrow, just sleep my days away. Maybe I'm stressed out.
Posted by caraher on November 9, 2008, at 7:18:56
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Racer, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:35:48
> I think I have this habit of saying I want to die whenever I feel overwhelming bad emotions and I don't know how to handle them.
Could you possibly discipline yourself NOT to say you want to die in your Babble posts? Honestly, I find myself skipping your posts because I don't want to see that, and I don't consider myself overly sensitive to such things. I like you but seeing that sort of thing over and over again makes me not want to keep my distance, and I'd guess I'm not the only one.
I think it would also do you a world of good to say to yourself "I feel overwhelmed" rather than "I want to die" whenever you feel overwhelmed. It seems like a healthier habit.
Posted by fayeroe on November 9, 2008, at 10:18:32
In reply to Re: I'm scared, posted by Deneb on November 8, 2008, at 18:27:38
Deneb, I agree with Caraher.
I want to support you but I am having a great deal of trouble reading your posts. I wonder if your saying that you want to die is such a habit that you are falling back on it when you aren't feeling that way. It does get attention and we all want attention. But it is something that can bring people down.
This is the first posting of yours that I've read in months because it is hard to get invested when it can be the sameo, sameo.
As Bob says, "this isn't personal and it doesn't mean that I don't like you"........
Pat
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 10:59:04
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Racer, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:35:48
Deneb, you've worked so hard, and you've developed such an enormous amount of insight into your emotions and behaviors over the past few years, and seeing you fall back on old, maladaptive patterns is difficult for me. It's not a question of not liking you, of course -- it's just that I have seen how much happier you are when you use your new skills! I'd far rather see you happier than more anxious.
So, now that you've proven you can see what you're doing -- what do you think you may do instead to cope with these feelings?
:-0 Scary thought, huh? That you already have the internal resources to address this!
Peace, little star.
Posted by Nadezda on November 9, 2008, at 12:12:37
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Racer, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:35:48
It's a relief that you understand that "I want to die" really means "I feel overwhelmed by bad feelings." Maybe the one thing you need to add is-- that you also don't know how to self-sooth. I have that problem too-- and it's taken time, but there are techniques, which become more effective when practiced. There's also trying very hard, when you feel that overwhelming sense, and start saying "I want to die" to yourself, to remember that you don't want to die-- you want to feel better. If you practice saying that to yourself, I predict you'll feel much better than if you keep saying , "I want to die."
As an experiment, try thinking of a situation that you're a little worried about (not anything you're very upset by). Then think, "it's a disaster, it's hopeless, etc"-- and see how you feel. Then think of the situation, and say, "I'll be able to handle it, It isn't the end of things, I'll have another chance to repair it; it will turn out okay" (or other reassuring phrases)-=- and compare how to feel. I suspect you'll find that you feel much better if you say the second things-- than if you say t he first. That illustrates how powerful the words and thoughts you have can be-- in worsening how you feel, or relieving it.
I am really glad, though, that you're finding ways of getting relief-- like walking. But there are things you can do other than walking-- breathing slowly, thinking about a safe or happy place, and others. The next step is learning how to do those things.
Nadezda
Posted by Racer on November 9, 2008, at 13:15:28
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Deneb, posted by Nadezda on November 9, 2008, at 12:12:37
>... there are things you can do other than walking-- breathing slowly, thinking about a safe or happy place, and others. The next step is learning how to do those things.
>
> NadezdaAnd the next step after that is remembering to do those things when you need them...
That's where I sometimes have trouble...
(Then again, I'm not great at self-soothing techniques, either, so maybe I'm getting ahead of myself...)
Posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 23:03:09
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you!, posted by caraher on November 9, 2008, at 7:18:56
I feel bad.
:-(
Posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 23:14:02
In reply to :-(, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 23:03:09
I'm not allowed to talk about some things. :-(
I have bad thoughts. :-(
Posted by fayeroe on November 10, 2008, at 11:17:50
In reply to Re: :-(, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 23:14:02
> I'm not allowed to talk about some things. :-(
>
> I have bad thoughts. :-(Deneb, I haven't been here for awhile but when I left you had made a lot of progress in your postings here.
Has something, specifically, happened to cause you to be upset?
Deneb, I can't post about "bad things" either here. It's like working at a prison when an employee has to tell an offender, "if I can't do it, you can't either".....A support forum has to have a certain balance to it, just as a workplace, a prison, etc.
We all have to have filters in our daily conversations with others. A filter enables us to think about our speech and decide whether or not it is appropriate for the situation. Talking about suicide on a mental health forum can be very upsetting to other posters and it isn't entirely fair to your friends here.
Have you been seeing your therapist? Perhaps she/he can help you with your thoughts.
Pat
>
>
Posted by Angela2 on November 10, 2008, at 16:18:55
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you! » Racer, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 0:35:48
> I think I have this habit of saying I want to die whenever I feel overwhelming bad emotions and I don't know how to handle them. Having the bad feelings stop would be preferable to death.
>
> I'm sensitive to negative feelings. I tend to get anxious over getting excited, especially if others start getting anxious too. My thoughts then run away from me.
>
> I was in chat and I felt better while in chat.
>
> Right now I'm getting upset again, tearful. I don't know what is up.
>
> I feel like I don't want to face life tomorrow, just sleep my days away. Maybe I'm stressed out.
>
>Hi Deneb. Reading your post...it made me wonder..maybe you are lacking some skills when it comes to dealing with your overwhelming emotions? Although, it's GREAT that you can do things that soothe yourself! Like going for a walk, or talking in chat, etc. So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, lol. It's just that I read somewhere that when you experience negative emotions, there is a lesson to be learned, or there is something you need to work on. In life, there is happiness and fun. And there is also disomfort and change. It is unavoidable. Although I wish it was! I really think you are on to something with doing the things that make you feel better when you feel crummy.
Posted by Deneb on November 10, 2008, at 23:28:23
In reply to Re: :-( » Deneb, posted by fayeroe on November 10, 2008, at 11:17:50
Thanks for your reply fayeroe. I thought you didn't like me. I don't think clearly sometimes when I'm upset.
I don't know why I feel bad right now. I think it may be a combination of things. I think the main thing is that I did poorly on my midterm on Sat. Meds decrease may not help either.
I know some things need to be censored/filtered. I understand. I just get impulsive sometimes. I think overall I'm still doing well. There are setbacks sometimes, but I'm a lot better.
I see pdoc tomorrow. I'm glad, maybe she will help me feel better.
Posted by Deneb on November 10, 2008, at 23:31:03
In reply to Re: I'm gonna pull my hair out over you!, posted by Angela2 on November 10, 2008, at 16:18:55
Thanks Angela.
Yeah, upset is unavoidable in life. I have to learn better ways to deal with them.
Posted by Nadezda on November 11, 2008, at 14:15:27
In reply to Re: :-(, posted by Deneb on November 9, 2008, at 23:14:02
You seem to be misunderstanding, though, Deneb. The idea is not that the thought, "I want to kill myself" is bad. It's that you aren't really having that thought. When you have a certain feeling, you define it as the feeling, "I want to...." But what we're saying is that that phrase "I want to..." stands for another *real* thought that you are having-- but don't know how to express.
Racer and I are suggesting that a better, that is, more accurate, way of ACTUALLY EXPRESSING the real thought that you're having is: "I'm feeling overwhelmed at the moment by bad feelings and I want very much to feel better."
So what we're saying, again, is that you actually are substituting an idea that doesn't really describe the feeling well, for a real thought about overwhelming feelings.
At least, that's certain how I understand what Racer is saying. And it definitely is what I"m saying. I just don't think you do, in fact, want to kill yourself when you say, that '"I want to...."-- so that phrase doesn't really explain what you're thinking.
Do you see the difference?
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on November 11, 2008, at 15:22:38
In reply to Re: :-( » Deneb, posted by Nadezda on November 11, 2008, at 14:15:27
> "I'm feeling overwhelmed at the moment by bad feelings and I want very much to feel better."
Could I make one suggestion?
I think it might be more accurate to say
"I'm feeling overwhelmed at the moment by bad feelings and I want very much to stop feeling so bad."
Deneb, I have the exact same response. Exact same response. My husband yells at the dogs or slams the door, my nervous system gets overwhelmed, and I get the sudden urge to (I'll leave out the precise method I tend to think of). It's a strong urge. And it's a real urge. I really am thinking it, and to some extent I really do mean it.
But I mean it because I see ending my life as ending the pain. The ultimate ending of the pain.
Linehan talks about this a lot in her video. That people with suicidal ideation and urges to hurt themselves have these thoughts because in some sense they are the ultimate in pain avoidance.
Deneb, I believe that when you say that you mean that. Just as when I think it I mean it. But I mean it in the sense that I want pain to stop.
I make the decision not to mention this thought to my husband, or any member of my family. Because it won't help my situation any to mention it in this way. Pragmatically, it's not a statement that draws the desired response. It may even make my life worse in the short term. Definitely in the long term.
Even when I mention it to my therapist, I try to be very clear that I'm not in any danger of acting on the impulse because I know that my therapeutic relationship is stronger if I don't put him under undue strain. And I also know that if I keep saying it, he'll eventually quit listening. He'll hear the words and not hear the meaning behind them.
So now I tell him "I want you to understand how really really bad I feel." And to us, that's shorthand for saying "I am feeling that I want to end the pain at any cost. I am wanting to demonstrate how very very bad I feel. I'm wanting to express it. But I'm choosing not to express it in a way that will damage my relationship with you or with anyone else. What I need from you is to hear the pain as if I'd expressed it more forcefully. I need you to understand how really really bad I feel."
Deneb, we know you here. Some of us care a lot about you. And others are expressing their desire to enter into a caring relationship with you, and their understanding of what it is that is keeping them from doing that.
I don't think it's *wrong* to feel the way you do. I don't think it's wrong to express it to the people who can handle your feelings without it damaging your relationship with them. Your therapist maybe. But in a totally pragmatic sense, it will benefit your life and your relationships to choose to express your pain in a way that makes other people want to reach out to you, and not in a way that distresses them enough to want to avoid the pain involved.
I totally agree to interpret your saying you feel really really bad to mean that you feel so very bad that it seems urgent to stop the pain now. Maybe you could put ***'s around it. Maybe not everyone is in a place to respond to your appeal at any moment. But you don't need to say more than that to elicit the response you want. And it might pragmatically work better for you to not say more, because you reduce the pool of those who feel able to help you.
People aren't trying to hurt you. People are trying to reach out to you and to arrange a way to enter into relationship with you. I'd feel pretty honored if I were you. It's easier for people to just ignore or walk away. It's downright flattering to know that people see something in you they want to reach out to.
And I'm saying that as someone who frequently gets the same urges you get, and who understands completely your desire to express your pain in this way and your desire to end the pain once and for all.
I know that you don't want to end the joys of life once and for all, and that there's no real way to do one without the other. I know you enjoy the large and small challenges of life. And shoes with dangerously high heels. I know you're looking forward to exploring all sorts of feelings. I know you're looking forward to all sorts of things.
Posted by seldomseen on November 12, 2008, at 6:10:44
In reply to Deneb, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2008, at 15:22:38
Oh sweetie, it's okay.
From reading your posts over the years I know that your family is also very invalidating.
My guess is that in order to receive any kind of comfort or support from them (or just get on the radar screen at all), you had to show up with an extreme sort of crisis.
You may have learned that simply feeling bad is not enough to warrant any kind of attention at all. So you had to kick it up a notch.
Well, Deneb, your feelings matter - no matter what they are. You are a human being. You do not need to kick it up a notch here.
Don't worry, you will get there. I've seen so much progress in your posts. Good lord, not a single one of us is perfect and communicates perfectly all the time. You're working, and damn - this is hard.
Keeping on trucking shining star. It's okay.
Posted by Deneb on November 13, 2008, at 15:19:59
In reply to Re: :-( » Deneb, posted by Nadezda on November 11, 2008, at 14:15:27
Thanks for your reply Nadezda.
I think I know what you mean. I think I just want to express how badly I feel. But Dinah as a good point, saying I feel like dying doesn't get people to like me.
Posted by Deneb on November 13, 2008, at 15:24:10
In reply to Deneb, posted by Dinah on November 11, 2008, at 15:22:38
Thanks Dinah, for your reply.
Thanks for understanding me.
I have to be pragmatic about this.
I just wonder why some people get lots of support when they feel suicidal but people get angry at me?
Posted by Deneb on November 13, 2008, at 15:25:11
In reply to Re: Deneb, posted by seldomseen on November 12, 2008, at 6:10:44
Thanks seldom.
I think I've made progress, but it's never enough. :-(
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2008, at 18:42:09
In reply to Re: Deneb, posted by Deneb on November 13, 2008, at 15:24:10
> But Dinah as a good point, saying I feel like dying doesn't get people to like me.
I don't think I'd put it exactly that way. I don't think it's a question of liking so much as it is of knowing their own limits?
> I just wonder why some people get lots of support when they feel suicidal but people get angry at me?
Who knows what alchemy goes into people's responses to different people. But I think we all have the feeling that we're responded to differently. I sometimes feel people don't have much tolerance for my periodic meltdowns. And that they are more angry with me than they are with other people who totally lose it.
And I think maybe you mistake the kind of response other people get. I think that it is very easy for concern to turn to anger with anyone. Not because people aren't concerned. It's a psychological response. You have probably heard of parents being scared silly because their kids are in danger, and then scolding them severely. Or since I have small dogs, I'm very familiar with the horrible sensation of accidentally starting to step on one and being horribly concerned, but end up expressing it by yelling "Quit walking under my feet?!!!" before I recollect myself and apologize.
Have you ever read Linehan? I know you're busy with school but you might really like the first part of her skills manual (or maybe it's the book) where she explains her theories. I'm not saying that everything she says is definitely true. But I sure remember laughing in self recognition at times.
Posted by caraher on November 13, 2008, at 22:05:56
In reply to Re: Deneb, posted by Deneb on November 13, 2008, at 15:24:10
> I just wonder why some people get lots of support when they feel suicidal but people get angry at me?
>Did I miss something where people were angry with you? I'm sorry if you thought people were angry with you... I can say that I've never been angry with you, at least.
I've tried to help people who feel suicidal and I'm very selective about that, in part because it can be very draining emotionally. It's much harder to help someone who seems to go fairly quickly from posting about suicide to saying everything is OK; a big reason this is hard for me is that I can only ride roller coasters that go up and down over a longer period of time.
I'd like you not to feel as bad as you do from time to time, and feel a bit guilty that I can't be very helpful. But it is for a good reason, and I thought it might help if you understood how certain kinds of posts pose impediments to some people giving you more support. I don't think your thoughts are "bad" or "wrong" in a moral sense; they're just your thoughts. But I have thoughts all day long that I choose not to express not because they are wrong but because of a whole array of pragmatic judgments. I just wanted to suggest that you might get more support if you were able to apply a little more effort to refining your thoughts along the lines others have suggested.
Posted by Deneb on November 15, 2008, at 11:50:41
In reply to Re: Deneb, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2008, at 18:42:09
I think I understand now. So people have to stay away sometimes because they can't handle someone like me. It doesn't mean they don't like me?
I wish people didn't get angry.
I have Linehan's Skills Manual. I haven't really gone through it yet.
Posted by Deneb on November 15, 2008, at 11:52:03
In reply to Re: Deneb, posted by caraher on November 13, 2008, at 22:05:56
I will try harder to not express bad thoughts.
They make things worse sometimes.
Posted by Dinah on November 15, 2008, at 15:13:57
In reply to Re: Deneb » Dinah, posted by Deneb on November 15, 2008, at 11:50:41
> I think I understand now. So people have to stay away sometimes because they can't handle someone like me. It doesn't mean they don't like me?
Again, I wouldn't say that they can't help "someone like you", because that's a bit broad. I'd say more that they find they are triggered by some behaviors. It may sound like a difference in semantics, but it's not really.
> I have Linehan's Skills Manual. I haven't really gone through it yet.
You might want to look through the front part where she talks about the concepts. I found it fascinating. And compassionate.
This is the end of the thread.
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