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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 16:12:07
In reply to Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 11:43:20
> hi everybuddy,
> i have some questions because im trying to figure out what is really abuse...
>
> can anyone tell me what is physical child abuse? id like to belive my father is not a monster. everywhere i look on the net it seems to be that its only very severe like where ou have to hide injuries, but someone sayid my dad is a criminal and i want to know is he really or is my frined blowing it out of proportion?
>
> i dont know
> siennaI don't know exactly where the line is drawn either. Earlier parents used to use harsher punishment that was never questioned, but these days what they did WOULD be considered abuse.
Nowadays, would you call dragging a child up a staircase by their hair (on more than one occasion) child abuse? What about kicking a child when they are uncontrollably screaming to get them to move or to stop screaming? How about locking them in their room with a chamber pot with no dinner, sometimes not letting them out until morning?
It seems like what constitutes physical abuse is when the person doing the abusing has lost control of their own behavior. Somehow it seems like the abusee senses this and knows that it goes well beyond the realm of normal discipline, which is why it hurts them even more emotionally.
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:28:05
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 15:05:55
HI Miller,
i setill want to grow up and be just like my daad except maybe not exaclty like him. But hes smart and people like him and hes sucecesful and all that. i think hes amazing.
It did help for going through thereapy to talk about al lot of it, but i still have that unreal thinking aobu tit like he isnt an abuser or i cant love him. LIke i cant fix it so it must jsut have to be ok because i want to keep a relationship with him and i couldnt do that if he was really a monster. So i have to look at it like he was not being wroong.
How terrible for us . .. i guess all we can do is just try to be better people i know i owouldnt never hurt anybuddy.
I dont like being alone either Miller. Thanks for posting because it hleops me not to feel so alone too.
Sienna
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:29:29
In reply to Re: abuse, posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:47:17
Thanks coral.
is just that it dosesnt feel like it is in som e ways. like i was doing wrong when he hit me so it seem slike he was just doing his job or something. I belive you though, its just so hrad to belive. everyone always thought my family was perfect but it really wansint.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:30:08
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:49:37
i suppose that is tryue coral...
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:31:34
In reply to abuse or discipline » sienna, posted by beardedlady on April 3, 2003, at 16:04:03
hi beardedlady,
he wanst drunk and it was always that i didsomething to warrant discipline so but im still not sure that that makes it ok. do you think it dose?sienna
> > is that abuse? or is that dischipline?
>
> Eek. I don't rightly know. I guess it would depend on whether he was drunk or whether you did something to warrant discipline.
>
> beardy
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:32:34
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 16:12:07
That make sense worrygirl, because i did feel horrible about myself after and more than the puncsishment hurt though isometimes i did hurt bad from taht too. but mostly i think i just was very upset emotionslaly.
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 16:50:32
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:28:05
Sienna,
Don't get me wrong, everything my parents have done to me has NEVER made me stop loving them. In fact, in a way, I have learned to love them more. It is unfortunate that they weren't the best parents. It sucks they abused their kids. However, I love them and always will.
One of the hardest things I ever had to learn was that I couldn't "fix" what is/was wrong. It's a hard lesson to swallow. It hurts, but reality is better and more honest to live with.
Sienna, I believe you were abused. That does not mean your dad is a monster. It doesn't mean you can't love him. It doesn't mean you have to decide what he did was illegal or not. In my opinion, itmeans you just need to look honestly at how you felt and how you feel about what happened. Sienna, take care of you and your opinions and feelings will all fall into place. It will hurt, but once you have done it, imagine the security you (we) will have knowing we have matured enough to look at what we had and be able to accept and forgive and move on?
:)
-Miller
Posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » WorryGirl, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:32:34
Hi Sienna,
I really like Miller's post - very well phrased. As hard as it hurts, try to see it that way.
I feel the way Miller does. My parents weren't perfect, but I think that they did the best they knew how. Sure, they regret some of the things they did when life was so stressful for them they didn't know how to handle it. I deal with those issues myself (maybe not in the same way, but it can be hard coping sometimes).I don't know if you were talking about purely physical abuse, or sexual abuse, as well. Either way, it hurts in every way possible.
Sienna, I really feel for you and I do care.
Posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 19:28:08
In reply to Physical abuse » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
Hi there...
Me again. After we wrote back and forth earlier today, I decided to confront one of my "demons."I called one of my ex-employers at an agency called Parent Anonymous. I read your description to her, after she gotten done complaining about my rapid departure (I was looking into an abuse allegation in a crack house and was picked up, thrown against the wall, threatened, tossed down a flight of stairs only to be continually hit with rocks that were picking up and throwing at me while I ran for my car. I went home, filled out my assessment paperwork for the child's well being, dropped it of the next day and refused to ever step foot in the agency again--they now send at least two workers to most homes.
When that was done, Linda, my former supervisor said, something that I hadn't herd in years since she was the one who told me: "if it looks like fish and smells like fish (like something looking 'fishy' it's PROBABLY a fish." I told you my saying was: if I can see it, I need to look into it more.
One poster asked along the line if he were drunk: being DRUNK IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!!!!! I could chant that for hours. IF you are drunk and you rape someone, you still committed the act of rape and so on… Often things happen fast b/c someone does something without thinking and sometimes this is referred to as a "crime of passion" and special circumstance at times are made in courts, but what you describe was an ongoing pattern, not a one time thing... and if he were drunk it still WOULD NOT make a difference.
I think it is great that you can still look at him with admiration, as it shows your ability to forgive.
The main point I want you to remember is that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT, he was an adult and seems to have been more then strict, he was most likely, in legal terms, an abusive parent.
In the future remember two things for me: 1) It was not my fault and; 2) a saying that existed in NY for a long time--believe the children, meaning if they say it, look into it as they are most often not lying for attention but honestly screaming out for help as best they can.
Bless you, Sienna
~tony
Posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 21:38:58
In reply to Re: abuseseinna » coral, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:30:08
No supposing about it. He was obviously out of control, physically, with you.
Part of the cycle of abuse is feeling like it's your fault and you deserve it. I imagine he did a number on your self-esteem in order for you to buy into the idea that it was no big deal, your fault. It's very often denial on the part of the whole family that makes the wheels run smoothly and the abuse continue.
If you saw an adult do to a child what he did to you, what would you think? Discipline or abuse?
Shar
> i suppose that is tryue coral...
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:56:37
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by Miller on April 3, 2003, at 16:50:32
Hi
I knwo you are right. i am working out how i feel. i thought i had it all worked out, but after this last assualt i am way confused. its just that the damage he did is still there so much and i awlways feel like im weak and cant take care of myself and that its my fault. and that damage is severe, but i dont wnat to be resentful and blame him expecially hes tryingso hard to do goodnow and still makes mistakes but has matured alot. (well he is 59 now)....
i need to get to a place where its ok for me to realize he did somuch damage and still be able to love him and acceept that it wasnt my fault AND that he did the best he could. Its ust confused right now.
sienna
p.s. you are helping a lot thanks so much for caring and writing me.
Posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:58:54
In reply to Physical abuse » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
hi worrygirl
thanks for writing. you are sweet. i pretty much had worked out how i felt and in a pretty mature way. i am great friends with my parents but i still cant get my head around what my dad would do. hed get so mad at me and scare teh crap out of me. im more sad about it then mad but belive me i have had my mad times in life with him. I just dont feel like being mad anymore. I dont want to feel that feeeling. But i dont want to forget what happened either. i just wnat to move on.
ill work it out. Its just contributing to flashbacks i guess and that is not workign out so good.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 0:02:50
In reply to Re: Physical abuse~~sienna, posted by lostsailor on April 3, 2003, at 19:28:08
WOw tony,
That was a huge step, thanks so much adn congratulations too. I think it is a fish too. Now just have to determine the size, just kidding. but i guess i need to know how common that is. I thought it happened ot everyone when i was growing up and then when i found out it didnt i was way surpised. now im just confused. it happens a lot i guess, but i just dont understand it. I would never hit anyone.
i dont think its ok if he were drunk, which he never was. But i did do things to push his buttons and thats where im confused. but i guess you are right, it wasnt my fault.
i will remember what you said tony. i appreciate it.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 0:05:32
In reply to Re: abuseseinna » sienna, posted by shar on April 3, 2003, at 21:38:58
hi shar,
i would think abuse.... its just so unbelievable...i cant believe he can be like dr. jekyl and mr hyde. i wanna know what he was thinking and if he felt bad at the time. or what? i dont know what i want, but i guess i think i want to understnad how this happened.
sienna
Posted by Miller on April 4, 2003, at 8:09:07
In reply to Hi Miller » Miller, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 23:56:37
Sienna,
The sad part is that you may never know "why" he does it. I am sure he doesn't know himself. That has been a huge part of my therapy as well. The why's aren't always there to be known.
Growing up, I always created my own "why's". Such as being a high-maintenance child or doing bad things, etc. Now that I am starting to see my past a little more clearly, I can't MAKE my parents react the way I want or not want them to.
I know it is a sad, painful, and lonely process, but I am holding onto the hope that once I reach the destination, it will all be worth it.
If I could ask for a perfect resolution, it would be very similar to what I believe yours would be. I want to feel comfortable and close to my parents and secure with myself.
:)
-Miller
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:12:20
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 12:33:58
Sienna, whether it was "abuse" is a complex question. If you mean legally, is it defined as abuse, well, that will depend on what state you live in. It is possible that it would not have been define as abuse had child welfare professionals investigated, but that only means that it didn't meet the criteria established by that jurisdiction, or that they couldn't determine based on the evidence that it met the criteria. Legal criteria are not the same as what you experienced. For legal definitions, an arbitrary line has to be drawn, but you are talking about experiences that even if they didn't go over that arbitrary legal line, could have been abusive.
If you are trying to explore the issue for yourself in terms of looking back at how you were treated, you don't need to get caught up in the question of legally whether it was abuse. Or even get bogged down on the word abuse. It sounds like very very inappropriate parenting, no matter what you call it!!
From what you describe, your Dad sounded rather out of control. To me, spanking (and I don't believe in spanking, but if I did, this would be my definition) is a carefully applied discipline approach, not something that is done when the parent is out of control with anger.
Are you in therapy? Were you in the day treatment program (forgive me for not remembering if it was you--sorry). I hope you are in treatment, because I am sure you have a lot of feelings about what all that hitting and shoving felt like. Not only physically, and emotionally, in terms of how scary it must have been, how confusing, etc. but also in terms of what kind of modeling your father did in how to solve problems and manage his anger. And how all of that affects your emotional life.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:14:41
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 13:46:10
>>i wana know wheter he was being illegal or not. like was it in the realm of ok behaviour or not.
OK, one thing for sure. From what you have described, I feel confident saying that it was NOT OK behavior.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:16:57
In reply to Re: abuseseinna, posted by coral on April 3, 2003, at 15:49:37
> Dear Sienna,
>
> You wrote, " . . .the only balck eye i ever got was a accident becauwse he threw me across a roorm and i hit the TV but he didnt punch me."
>
> That was NOT an accident. He THREW you across a room.
How did I miss this when I read the previous posts? I agree. It is not OK to throw your child. It is abusive. Not an accident--Coral is right.Punching is not the only way to hurt people.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:18:28
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions..... » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 16:12:07
> Nowadays, would you call dragging a child up a staircase by their hair (on more than one occasion) child abuse? What about kicking a child when they are uncontrollably screaming to get them to move or to stop screaming? How about locking them in their room with a chamber pot with no dinner, sometimes not letting them out until morning?
>
Yes, I would consider all of those behaviors abusive, not discipline.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:20:49
In reply to Re: Child abuse questions....., posted by sienna on April 3, 2003, at 16:28:05
It is hard. Most children love their parents no matter what. And you can continue to love him, but also be able to learn how to be justifiably angry at him for how he treated you. But it is a hard process.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:22:44
In reply to Physical abuse » sienna, posted by WorryGirl on April 3, 2003, at 17:31:32
> Hi Sienna,
> I really like Miller's post - very well phrased.
Me too.
Posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:25:30
In reply to Re: Hi Miller » sienna, posted by Miller on April 4, 2003, at 8:09:07
Sorry about all the individual posts I posted before reading the entire thread.
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 14:54:58
In reply to Re: posting before I read the whole thread, posted by noa on April 4, 2003, at 10:25:30
thanks for your responses actuallly. all of this is helping a lot. its just a lot to think about and havent thought about it in a long time. so its like digging in the diirt again.
thanks noa, i appreciate it.
sienna
Posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 15:03:21
In reply to Re: Hi Miller » sienna, posted by Miller on April 4, 2003, at 8:09:07
hi again,
part of the reason i think i want to understand is that i want to make sure the cycle is broken. well i don think i have to worry too much, i think i would never ever hurt anyoen so im not to worried. But i guess i want to understand that kind of behavior i dont know why. I think all of what you wrote is right.
i think right now i am pretty close to my parents. I decided a long time ago that i couldnt let them change who I am and i couldnt let them believve that im somone that im not. So im as honest as possible and tell them things that probably a lot of people dont tell their parents. I dont hide a lot fromthem becuase i want them to love me for who i am, and if they dont know the true me then how do i know that they really love me. It was too much questioning all the time so i show them true unconditioning love and except the same in return. And the ball is in thier court then, i have done all i can.
And i think they appreciate it. they dont probably tell me everything, but i feel that they know me pretty well. Hell i even told them about hospitliaztion and also about doing drugs. They worry some but they say im an adult its up to me. And that i really appreciate becuase when i was little and being hit, i had no control over anything, and now i see that I have ultimate control over my life and that is a beautiful thing especially with the contrast of how it was when i was a teenager and even early twenties.
Over all i am happy in life even with symproms fo my illness, but overall i know i have control and that my life is my story to write and I am choosing carefully and freely. And that is wonderful.
Wow im wriring a book here, but i guess i just am happier with my relationship with my parents since i dealt with a lot of stuff around 1995 or so. There is still stuff ot deal with, he did some crappy things to me a couple years ago, but i stood up for myself and drew my boundary line in the dirt and said, this is my line, dont cross it or there are repercussions. Well thats not exactly what i said but that was the general gist of it. And things have been pretty peachy since.
I understand some of where he is coming from, but he cant rule me anymore.
Freedom is bliss.
Thanks for posting Miller your helping me work thruogh a lot of stuff.
Sienna
Posted by Miller on April 4, 2003, at 15:41:07
In reply to Re: Hi Miller » Miller, posted by sienna on April 4, 2003, at 15:03:21
I am glad that you are so "together" with your emotions.
Abuse sucks. I firmly believe that I will not abuse child. I can see myself getting angry and have been able to control myself. I also don't have the need for control that my parents did.
All good signs. I figure since I am honest to myself about what I saw and what was wrong with them, I have a good shot. I am also honest enough with myself to acknowledge the damage they did to me.
POst anytime you want to talk. :)
-Miller
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