![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Snowie on October 16, 2000, at 7:15:45
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited, posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 0:34:56
I guess those are your rules for how you perceive this Board? Tei, as humans we all have our dark side. The difference is that most of us have learned to suppress this side, or at the very least to channel it into other, more creative activities. Some of us are able to admit when we need help. Society has its own rules for acceptable and unacceptable human behavior. At some point we have to learn the difference between what is socially acceptable and what is not, or pay the price.
I'm glad your therapist is helping you now. Keep talking and posting ... communication is good.
Snowie
> > Let me be clear about the rules...I can not let the darker, more ominous side of me come out because that would be too disturbing for you guys. That is o.k. I really didn't mean to scary you guys. But I always had this theory that if people really get to know me, they would be put off by me. But those who do not really know me, likes me.
>
> Right now, it is really more important for me to have people to talk to than to worry about my darker thoughts. I think my therapist finally is zoning in on my other side now. But she said that she really can not help me if I do not admit that I have a problem. All she can do is to keep me out of trouble. Like telling me I am forbidden from calling up those therapists and such. I think in our next session, I'll tell her that if I let people to really get to know me, I scare them and myself. That is a problem isn't it. Plus, I get very dizzy and disillusional when I am between the two state of mind.
>
> I am happy that I am welcome here. That is all I wanted in the first place.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> Tei,
> >
> > I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by quoting you, but all we have are words on the Internet. Consequently, by our words we are known.
> >
> > You are a most intriguing person. Like Shar said, just be yourself and you'll be fine. We all have our own problems in real life as well. I would be lying if I said I didn't obsess during those two years about the mailman. I did, and this only happened about 5 years ago. We're all human, but we all have a need to be liked for who we are -- not for who we want to be.
> >
> > I don't know who you are, but I'm a 44-year-old woman from Florida. I have social anxiety, general anxiety disorder, and who knows what else. I've just started therapy myself, and I like my therapist so far. I hate meds, so I take only what I need and no more.
> >
> > Welcome.
> >
> > Snowie
> >
> >
> > > > I want to clarify something. I do not fantasize about the therapist all the time. It is just that at the moment I was writing the thread, I thought of starting with them since this service is about psychiatry, you know. I obviously misunderstood the rhythm and the conversations that went on this board. So, when I came back under the name, Rzip, I tried to model after some of the other writers in my writing. All I want is for people to talk back and forth to me. In my normal day life, I am extremely shy and I am just unable to carry on any substantial prolonged conversations with people. I thought on this board, I can share some of my most inner thoughts. I guess I got my hopes up again.
> > >
> > > I really do not mind the critical responses I have been getting. It does get me to thinking about myself. I never thought the responses would be so strong. I however do not think it is very nice to attack me, or rather use my words against me. I just think that is a bit abusive, and it hurts my feelings. But whatever you guys want to say is fine. All I really want is to talk back and forth to people.
> > >
> > > Someone mentioned that they do not know who I am, but isn't that what makes this service so safe for the depth of communication that goes on here.
> > >
> > > Rzip
Posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
In reply to Re: Support to what end? Caroline's post revisited., posted by coral on October 16, 2000, at 6:40:23
All,
I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
Greg
Posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
Dear Greg,
Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.
You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?
"...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?
"...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.
Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?
When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).
It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."
You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.
If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?
Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.
You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.
Mark H.
Posted by shar on October 16, 2000, at 21:42:13
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
Greg,
Your strong suit is compassion, caring, support and the wonderful things that help people heal. And you can blast someone if you think they are inappropriate or harsh. That said, I can tell how strongly you felt that Pritzker should have been treated more gently or not potentially hurt by someone.If you did, action for action, what Pritzker did, and because I know you, I would have jumped in sooner with both feet demanding to know what the hell you were doing to yourself. And why you weren't getting help. I would not have been nice. I might even have just picked up and gone to get you to be sure you got help.
But, that's not how you post. And, I think in general, posters here do like to be kindly and concerned, and this was one occasion that some felt called for stronger action; and I think that also came out of concern.
Take good care of yourself.
Shar
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 21:47:57
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
> Everyone,
O.k. I get the point. I was wrong to think and act the way that I did.
I have been listening and reading all the posts. I understand that first of all, people are mad at me because I touched a nerve and was acting out in an inappropriate way. Then, people are mad at me because I did not acknowledge the good intentioned advices given. And now everyone is talking around me which is more hurtful than anything else. I want people to talk to ME. You know we can talk about how our day has been or something.
But I guess no one wants to talk to me now that they found out I am so self-centered. That's sad. I started telling my mentor at work that I suffer from depression and that's why I seem so disoriented these last couple of days. I guess he is finding out that he can not count on me as much as he thought. I also worked for him during the summer and I was able to devote my heart and soul to his research. So when school started, he kind of expected the same from me-- but I couldn't exactly deliver because I am getting ill again. I think this is the first time I intentionally disappointed him. It just got to be too much last week.
I know that you guys are thinking that I am focusing internally, on myself again. So, what do you want me to do to help you? I looked through the threads and except for the ones that I tried to answer (I noticed that no one respond to my follow-ups afterwards), I really do not seem to be able to connect to you guys.
I do feel your pain and I am amazed at the degree of honesty and upfrontness that you guys are able to communicate with one another. I am thinking that perhaps it is better if people do not actually respond to my threads, and I'll just check-in every so often and read and learn from you guys. But then, it goes to my initial point: I feel left out. But then perhaps I deserve to be.
Sincerely,
Yours trulyDear Greg,
>
> Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.
>
> You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?
>
> "...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?
>
> "...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.
>
> Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?
>
> When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).
>
> It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."
>
> You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.
>
> If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?
>
> Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.
>
> You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 19:46:06
Mark,
I'm going to do something I dearly hate and that's write my responses directly below yours.
> Dear Greg,
>
> Your request for clarification is worded in such a way that there isn't a lot of room to offer you observations or advice without risking offending you, so I'm going to say what I'd say if you were my best friend.I think my observations leave a lot of room for open-ended conversation. I express my feelings, no on else's. I appreciate your observations, I always do. I neither asked for, nor expected, your advice however. But that is your choice to give it as it my choice to ignore it. As for offending me, you only said one thing that offended me and I'll get to that when I reach that paragraph. As for the rest, it is only your opinion and you're entitled to it.
>
> You wrote, "I find this whole thing very distressing." That's clear. There is only one person responsible for your distress (or any other feeling you have); do you know who that person is?I use "I" sentences for a reason. I don't want anyone to ever get the impression that I'm speaking on anyone else's behalf. Apparently the feeling here is that I was speaking for others. I don't recall, and a re-read of my post verifies, that I never blamed anyone for my distress. And yes Mark, I do know who is responsible for my feelings. Did you feel blamed? Do you know who's responsible for that?
>
> "...how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future," is an implied threat of abandonment and/or withholding, and it is predicated on someone else controlling your feelings. Were you abandoned? Did others withhold affection and respect if they did not like your opinion or attitude? Is that how you enforce agreement in your relationships with others?I think this is a completely valid feeling. No one controls my feelings except me. Are you by any chance a therapist? If not, your comments certainly sound like a person who wants to be. No, I wasn't abandoned. No, attention or respect was not dependant on my attitude or opinion. Was yours? Is your need to psychoanalyize (sp?) due to this? How I handle my relationships is, bottom-line, none of your business.
>
> "...what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site" is a disingenuous question, because you have already twice said that you thought Caroline's response to Pritzker was a personal attack and "abusive," even though others have already said they perceived it otherwise. Your question is a trap, and as such it's less than honest.Who are you to judge my honesty? Compare apples and apples Mark. Your comment lacks any form of cohesion and is simple and transparent attempt to avoid answering an important question. How others perceived what was said is their business. Please stick to how YOU feel, I did. If the others feel a need to respond, they'll do so.
>
> Do you think that only one point of view can be "right," and that any other, ipso facto, must be "wrong"? Do you recognize "I have to be right or I'm an awful person" as a thought typical of recovering alcoholics and not necessarily accurate or useful?OK, here's where you offended me. Don't EVER be so pretentious as to imply that my alcoholism dictates how I think. I work hard every day of my life to discover who I am. If you too are an alcoholic, then you'll understand that comment with crystal clarity. If not, then I'll understand how you can be so as unfeeling as to have made it in the first place. I know when my "stinking thinking" is controlling my thoughts. This is not one of those times. You are out of line. If you want to make this personal, go ahead. But be aware I won't cower in a corner or run away. You're knack for "creative writing" doesn't intimidate me in the least. As for your right or wrong question, shouldn't you be asking that of yourself. And once again, speak for yourself. Let the others do their own talking.
>
> When I put myself in the shoes of the original poster, as you suggested, I am grateful for the thoughtful, careful, and progressively more direct responses that were written, including especially Caroline's response (given the lack of substantive feedback to the previous responses).If you see that as thoughtful, caring and supportive, the thought of what you see mean cruel and rude is simply beyond my humble comprehension. Frankly, I didn't see a great deal of progressive responses. I did see "I couldn't have put it better myself" and "what a wonderful response, I agree with you". Do I understand you to say that because no one else has yet to come out with the same opinion as mine, that makes my opinion invalid?
>
> It is not particularly compassionate, kind or supportive (in my opinion) to coddle people who are doing bad behavior because we wouldn't want to risk hurting their feelings. As my old therapist liked to put it, if a child runs into traffic, you don't say in measured tones, "Honey, please consider the safety aspects of your behavior." It's not much consolation at the kid's funeral to say, "Well, I never once raised my voice to him."Apples and apples Mark. I said on numerous occasions that I felt the same way as all of you about the need of the person to seek help. I still feel that way. Tough love has it's place and time. It doesn't fit everywhere despite what you might think. And as far as your child in traffic analogy, I run into traffic and save my child, and then as calmly and lovingly as I can I explain why they shouldn't do it again. Being abusive in my explanation does not get the point across and destroys self-esteem.
>
> You wrote, "It's like having your boss tell you 'you did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but,' it becomes meaningless." This is an important thing for you to have shared, because believe it or not, the compliment does NOT become meaningless for many of us, maybe even most of us. In fact, it's the way life really is. Things are very rarely all or nothing, all good or all bad, or even right or wrong. I'm a good person, AND I have a lot I need to work on. I did well on a project yesterday, AND today I am procrastinating. I'm kind and considerate, AND sometimes I'm a completely self-centered jerk.If being treated in a disrespectful manner is what heals you, go for it. I like receiving feedback, positive and negative, provided the person does it with respect. If negative affirmations are what you need to survive, that's your issue. I will never do that to you. And I must say that you are magnificent at quoting my sentences out of context. Hopefully everyone will read the entire post to see that there was much more to it.
>
> If you let "accurate self-knowledge" replace "how you feel about yourself," your feelings don't have to flop around based on what other people think, and your boss can't take away the value of his or her compliment by saying "but...". If his compliment is accurate, it's great to receive the feedback. If her criticism is valid, it's good to have the course-correction. One shouldn't puff you up, and the other shouldn't knock the wind out of you, right?Why is it you feel that my decision to voice an opinion that reflects against yours is "accurate self-knowledge", but Caroline's was totally acceptable? Are you a person that denies the rights of others when their opinions don't reflect yours? I believe you accused me of that earlier. Perhaps taking a good look in the mirror is in order for you. Caroline's opinion didn't affect me one way or the other. But see Mark, I'm a hippie, a child of the 60's. I learned to fight for what I believe in. Was I always right? Hell no. But the important thing is to fight for what you believe in, accept your defeats with dignity and admit when you're wrong. I'm capable of all three. I don't feel that I'm wrong here despite your attempts to make me feel that way. There was an indignity done here, and as is my right, I spoke out on it. But at no time did I insist, infer or try to coerse anyone into to sharing my opinion. In my humble opinion, that is what you are tryng to do to me.
>
> Probably the most liberating thing you could do on this issue/thread would be to state that you accept the POSSIBILITY that you might have been wrong; that YOU might have been the one jumping to conclusions and "leveling unfounded criticisms"; that maybe stern support isn't necessarily "abusive"; and that you're still OK just the way you are.I am liberated thru my beliefs, my ability to take a stand even when it is the unpopular choice to do so. In my opinion I am not wrong, in yours, I am. That is what makes this country a wonderful place to live, we have the right to disagree. In some countries you can be jailed for not sharing the opinions of your countrymen, even put to death. Mark, I am fine with who I am for the most part, the parts I'm not fine with have nothing to do with this issue. Nothing you have said here has changed my opinion one iota. I will now and forever stand up for anyone who is disrespected, not just for them but for myself. I would not have been as tolerant of this treatment as Lei was. I would have given as good as I got. She asked for help, never did she say "feel free to abuse me if you think it will help" Most of you gave valuable input and did so without being destructive. It can be done. It seems that the one who has the problem with who I am is you.
>
> You are a respected and valued contributor to this board, and nothing you've written (or that I've written, for that matter) changes or affects that fact. I appreciate you.Thank you for the compliment, I appreciate strokes. I return it in kind, I have always enjoyed reading your posts and think you have a marvelous writing style. I wish I could write half as well. Be assured that nothing you have said will affect my feelings toward you as a member of this/my "family.
As Caroline and I have chosen to do, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree.
Peace,
Greg
>
> Mark H.
Posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:16:51
In reply to Re: A little clarification please.... » Mark H., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
Rzip, If you read through other threads you will see that they can become quite tangled. This thread involved you only tangentially until you decided to post also. I'm glad you did. Then the thread wandered back to its original topic (sort of). There is no telling where it might go from here. Only if a thread was started by you to ask for specific opinions should you worry if it takes unexpected turns. In this last instance I would recommend that you restate your problem in order to try to get the thread back to where it needs to be in order to be of help to you. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious. Quilter
Posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 23:23:24
In reply to Re: A little clarification please.... » Mark H., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 22:09:56
Dear Greg,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I took a chance addressing you in the way I would a close friend after starting half-a-dozen responses to your request for clarification without finding a more tactful way to state my opinions and observations. Obviously, since you're offended, I misfired, and I wound up wasting a couple of hours of my time -- and yours -- hoping you would hear whatever validity there may have been in my letter, despite the awkward form it was in. Aaack! I apologize and hope we find whatever common ground is there between us sometime in the future.
Thank you for the compliments and for your openness to continued dialog.
With respect,
Mark H.
Posted by Rzip on October 16, 2000, at 23:42:19
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by quilter on October 16, 2000, at 23:16:51
Quilter,
Thank you for redirecting me to the tangle here. I am actually getting the right support that I need on some of the other threads. I guess when you put a group of us, who are all suffering from our individual pains, things tend to get a bit tangled. That is o.k. I guess as long as one is able to channel through and be patient and cordial. I do not think there is such a thing as misfiring as long as one keep in mind that everyone on this board is in distress to one degree or another. Every postings contain a grain of personal transference. And it is really a therapist's job to figure out the hidden interactions that is going on here.
I think as long as we write with the intention of being supportive; that we show that we care enough to ponder the dilemna...sometimes that is enough.
Yours truly> Rzip, If you read through other threads you will see that they can become quite tangled. This thread involved you only tangentially until you decided to post also. I'm glad you did. Then the thread wandered back to its original topic (sort of). There is no telling where it might go from here. Only if a thread was started by you to ask for specific opinions should you worry if it takes unexpected turns. In this last instance I would recommend that you restate your problem in order to try to get the thread back to where it needs to be in order to be of help to you. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious. Quilter
Posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Greg on October 16, 2000, at 8:22:42
Greg,
I don't intend to try to answer this because I think the posts pretty much speak for themselves. Some will see it one way; others will see it another. I think it speaks volumes that Pritzker/Tei/Rzip is still here (which is good), but where is Caroline?
Another thing I've noticed is how very "cliquish" this Board is. We tend to respond to people we know quicker than those we don't. We only seem to really pay attention when someone new comes along who demands attention. However, you'll see many new names where a person quietly asks a question and no one ever responds. They leave thinking this is not a place for support. I know, because when I first posted here a long time ago, no one responded. I left, but came back months later.
Tei is getting a lot of support here, and I hope that continues. Where is the support for the quiet majority?
Snowie
> All,
>
> I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
>
> I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
>
> I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
> on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.
>
> So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
> Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.
>
> Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
>
> Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
>
> Greg
Posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 7:27:22
In reply to Re: A little clarification please...., posted by Mark H. on October 16, 2000, at 23:23:24
Mark,
There is never a need to apologize for stating your opinion. I respect you taking a stand for what you believe in. Any offense I may have felt last night is gone. I believe that we have much more common ground than you might think and I consider you to be a friend. I don't think you wasted your time, you said what you felt needed to be said and so did I. Expressing feelings is never a waste of time. I don't know about you, but I've spent too much of my life doing that lately bottling mine up.
So now, I let this thing go and move on. There are other things going on in both our lives, I'm sure, that are more deserving of our energies.
Have a peaceful day,
Greg> Dear Greg,
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful response. I took a chance addressing you in the way I would a close friend after starting half-a-dozen responses to your request for clarification without finding a more tactful way to state my opinions and observations. Obviously, since you're offended, I misfired, and I wound up wasting a couple of hours of my time -- and yours -- hoping you would hear whatever validity there may have been in my letter, despite the awkward form it was in. Aaack! I apologize and hope we find whatever common ground is there between us sometime in the future.
>
> Thank you for the compliments and for your openness to continued dialog.
>
> With respect,
>
> Mark H.
Posted by Mark H. on October 17, 2000, at 11:10:51
In reply to Re: A little clarification please....All, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
Hi Snowie,
I always get a lot from your postings, and once again you've raised some important questions. I'd like to respond for myself, realizing that I don't speak for others.
Sometimes I can't get back to the board for days or even weeks, depending usually on my workload. Now, for instance, there's a slight pause at work, and I may actively respond for several days in a row to all sorts of postings. My responses range from two-liners ("ask your physician if there is another medicine your kids could try; the meds should help, not make matters worse") to lengthy forays into new territory, where I'm sometimes (hopefully) skillful and sometimes way off base.
But more to your point: I've told my story in detail several times and from multiple perspectives. I've offered my opinion on as many major subjects as I believe I have something to add to. Usually I won't respond to a post that has already been dealt with superbly by one of our generous regulars, or one on a topic that I've addressed previously at length. It's important to give other people a chance to step up and speak.
For me, it's not a matter of ignoring the regulars and only responding to someone new who is asking for help or feedback, it's just a matter of whether I have anything useful or substantive to add. Likewise, I prefer not to respond at all if I think my comments would be unkind or unhelpful or not well received. But the latter requires testing the water sometimes.
I think it is both practical and effective for people who expeience an affinity with a poster to be the ones to respond. So yes, over time, I tend to "talk" with certain people more than with others, not because I imagine myself to belong to a clique (that's ironically painful/humorous to me as a chronic outsider), but because that's where I may be of use.
For example, there is plenty of room on this board for people in their early twenties to discuss the issues and problems experienced at their age: jobs, beginning careers, finishing education, dating, personal ambition, first marriages, just beginning therapy, etc. But the perspectives of those of us who are 30 years older may not be as sympathetic or helpful as good responses from people their own age, who are successfully dealing with similar issues from the same set of personal (and current) experiences.
I sincerely hope that the support for the quiet majority you mentioned is included in all of our responses. I've received correspondence from people off-list who regularly lurk but have posted perhaps only once or twice, or not at all.Are you getting what you need, Snowie? You give so generously and freely of your heart and mind and considerable people and legal skills. I'm glad you're here.
Mark H.
Posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 14:12:35
In reply to Re: A little clarification please....All, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 7:15:09
Snowie,
It's good to hear from you. I hope you are well.
I don't know where Caroline is. I haven't seen a post from her since our last discussion. I am satisfied that we worked out any differences we were having. I hope that is still the case.
Your observation about cliques comes every so often and you are not the only one who feels this way from what I've read. I can only speak for myself on this. I read almost every post. I respond when I feel I have something of value to offer. Sometimes when I see a person post who is obviously in pain, I'll post if only to let them know that they are in my thoughts. It's important to know that someone cares. Sometimes the subject is something I know nothing about, so I don't post. I would be remiss to attempt to post to a person on a subject that I know nothing about just for the sake of posting. Although I will occasionally look up a URL for someone if I think it will help. But I can honestly say that I have never purposely avoided posting to a new person and have in fact posted to many. Occasionally (although not very often) it is a simple matter of not having time.
I will continue to do my best to support everyone here, new people, the old guard and everyone in between just the everyone has done for me.
My best to you,
Greg
> Greg,
>
> I don't intend to try to answer this because I think the posts pretty much speak for themselves. Some will see it one way; others will see it another. I think it speaks volumes that Pritzker/Tei/Rzip is still here (which is good), but where is Caroline?
>
> Another thing I've noticed is how very "cliquish" this Board is. We tend to respond to people we know quicker than those we don't. We only seem to really pay attention when someone new comes along who demands attention. However, you'll see many new names where a person quietly asks a question and no one ever responds. They leave thinking this is not a place for support. I know, because when I first posted here a long time ago, no one responded. I left, but came back months later.
>
> Tei is getting a lot of support here, and I hope that continues. Where is the support for the quiet majority?
>
> Snowie
>
>
> > All,
> >
> > I need some clarification on what's being discussed here. As most of you know I came out in opposition against the original post that's being discussed here. My problem was not with the opinion expressed in the post, but the way it was chosen to be expressed.
> >
> > I guess I'm asking about ground rules and guidelines. What type of posts might I expect support for and which ones can I expect a verbally abusive response? If I tell you that I'm having a fantasy about Friend A or Friend L, can I expect that some of you will search thru the posts and fine all the "handles" beginning with A or L and then accuse me of talking about that person? If I choose to not take your advice on a subject and continue to support my own opinion, will I be accused of not paying attention or playing games?
> >
> > I think the real issue here is not whether Pritzker/rzip/Lei has problems which need to be addressed, I agree with all of you that is the case and I have said as much before. I think the issue is despite what your opinions may be, this person has a right to receive those opinions from all of us in a respectful and supportive manner. I think that following up a two paragraph assault
> > on a person's character by saying "I could be wrong", or I hope I haven't offended you here" is simply ludicrous. It's like having your boss tell you "You did a wonderful job on the project I gave you....but"), it becomes meaningless. Leveling unfounded critizisms or character assasination without facts is just plain wrong.
> >
> > So, I guess I'm asking some of you to clarify what is acceptable to write in order to receive support and constructive feedback at this site.
> > Remember that my point here is not about anyone's right to express their opinion, it's about the words you choose to express them.
> >
> > Before responding, I'd ask you to go back and read the post in question here, put yourself in the shoes of a person who is lost, confused and seeking support and then decide how you would feel if the post had been left to you.
> >
> > Quite frankly, this whole thing leaves me wondering how much of my life I can feel free to share here in the future. I've been a member of the Babble family for a long time and I find this whole thing very distressing.
> >
> > Greg
Posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 19:58:06
In reply to Re: » Snowie, posted by Mark H. on October 17, 2000, at 11:10:51
Mark and Greg,
No one can respond to every post or thread, and I'm not suggesting that anyone attempt to do that. My area of "expertise" is limited to social anxiety and general anxiety disorder, but I have tried a few medications in my search for tranquility.
I personally am unhappy with where Psycho-Babble seems to be headed. You've heard the saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." It seems that we've become so engrossed with every squeaky wheel that comes along (and the subsequent fighting among ourselves that seems to result), that we lose focus of the vehicle as a whole. This vehicle called Psycho-Babble is made up of many parts. Certainly, give the squeaky wheel some oil, but don't become so obsessed with the squeaks that you fail to maintain the vehicle. Some parts may not make a lot of noise, but they need just as much oil.
Snowie
Posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 20:17:36
In reply to Mark and Greg, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 19:58:06
> And what defines the vehicle? The vehicle is... Or rather PB is ...
Mark and Greg,
>
> No one can respond to every post or thread, and I'm not suggesting that anyone attempt to do that. My area of "expertise" is limited to social anxiety and general anxiety disorder, but I have tried a few medications in my search for tranquility.
>
> I personally am unhappy with where Psycho-Babble seems to be headed. You've heard the saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." It seems that we've become so engrossed with every squeaky wheel that comes along (and the subsequent fighting among ourselves that seems to result), that we lose focus of the vehicle as a whole. This vehicle called Psycho-Babble is made up of many parts. Certainly, give the squeaky wheel some oil, but don't become so obsessed with the squeaks that you fail to maintain the vehicle. Some parts may not make a lot of noise, but they need just as much oil.
>
> Snowie
Posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 20:26:17
In reply to Mark and Greg, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 19:58:06
Snowie,
Your point is well taken. I am easily distracted by my own crap and by the pain of others. I don't want to see Babble degrade again either and I certainly don't want to be a part of that happening if it does. I will do my part to try and stay more focused. If I have ignored people that I could have helped, it was certainly not intentional. Thank you for caring enough about all of us to say something.
That being said, I'm going to let this whole thing pass and not respond to any more posts to this thread, fair enough?
Greg
> Mark and Greg,
>
> No one can respond to every post or thread, and I'm not suggesting that anyone attempt to do that. My area of "expertise" is limited to social anxiety and general anxiety disorder, but I have tried a few medications in my search for tranquility.
>
> I personally am unhappy with where Psycho-Babble seems to be headed. You've heard the saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." It seems that we've become so engrossed with every squeaky wheel that comes along (and the subsequent fighting among ourselves that seems to result), that we lose focus of the vehicle as a whole. This vehicle called Psycho-Babble is made up of many parts. Certainly, give the squeaky wheel some oil, but don't become so obsessed with the squeaks that you fail to maintain the vehicle. Some parts may not make a lot of noise, but they need just as much oil.
>
> Snowie
Posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 20:32:23
In reply to Mark and Greg, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 19:58:06
> Snowie,
Since I am new to PB, can you please tell how it was before. And what aspect(s) of where PB is going worries you. I really would like to know.
Sincerely.
Mark and Greg,
>
> No one can respond to every post or thread, and I'm not suggesting that anyone attempt to do that. My area of "expertise" is limited to social anxiety and general anxiety disorder, but I have tried a few medications in my search for tranquility.
>
> I personally am unhappy with where Psycho-Babble seems to be headed. You've heard the saying, "The squeaky wheel gets the oil." It seems that we've become so engrossed with every squeaky wheel that comes along (and the subsequent fighting among ourselves that seems to result), that we lose focus of the vehicle as a whole. This vehicle called Psycho-Babble is made up of many parts. Certainly, give the squeaky wheel some oil, but don't become so obsessed with the squeaks that you fail to maintain the vehicle. Some parts may not make a lot of noise, but they need just as much oil.
>
> Snowie
Posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 20:36:55
In reply to Re: Mark and Greg » Snowie, posted by Greg on October 17, 2000, at 20:26:17
Fair enough, Greg. That goes for me as well.
Snowie
> That being said, I'm going to let this whole thing pass and not respond to any more posts to this thread, fair enough?
>
> Greg
Posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 20:53:39
In reply to Re: Mark and Greg » Greg, posted by Snowie on October 17, 2000, at 20:36:55
> Ouch. That hurts :(
Good luck with your foot surgery, Greg! I hope that it will go smoothly.
- Rzip
Fair enough, Greg. That goes for me as well.
>
> Snowie
>
> > That being said, I'm going to let this whole thing pass and not respond to any more posts to this thread, fair enough?
> >
> > Greg
Posted by shar on October 17, 2000, at 21:30:46
In reply to Re: Mark and Greg, posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 20:53:39
I will post once more because I don't want people to be afraid to post their true opinions, or withhold posting because they don't want to be "negative." It is a given that, because we are human, we will disagree at times, and disappoint each other at times.
I hope everyone understands I am not advocating a farewell to kindness.
I don't see the above series of posts as an argument, but a discussion that included disparate views, and some heated words, but very much a part of how it is in the real world.
My concern is about withholding, which I can see as being identically as negative as exchanging a few harsh words. And the harshness was ironed out, not left to fester and linger as grudges. I'm paying $30 every Monday night to learn how to do that.
So, I am not left feeling there was a big argument or to-do. To me it's a success in the sense that people said what they felt and believed, some agreed to disagree, and it seems to me everyone ended up with their ideas expressed, acknowledged in some way, and parted friends. Perhaps there are secret grudges or undercurrents I did not pick up on, but it felt really healthy to me.
My main regret was that, as part of the discussion, Rzip, you did get "talked around" and that is uncomfortable and unpleasant. I would not know right now how to avoid that happening, but I'm sure there is a way to be more inclusive.
Shar
Posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 22:42:40
In reply to Post-postings Evaluation, posted by shar on October 17, 2000, at 21:30:46
> To all,
I am sorry that I could not fit into your "family". I did not mean to upset the rhythm of this group. I understand that in order to sustain the degree of genuine support among yourselves, the atmosphere has to be secure, and the relationship has to feel tight. Afterall, that is why there is such a discipline called psychotherapy.
I do not think any more surfaces should be scratched. I empathesize with your fear that the whole service will fall apart. It is really too bad because I think this service has a lot of potential to provide and to give. But there are some kinks that need to be worked out.
Personally, I think this service has both helped and hurted me. But the details are irrelevant now.
From the bottom of my heart, I wish you guys good health and cheers. And even through I am not religious, I hope God will help me through tonight and tomorrow. And maybe the next day? I think now is the time for me to believe that I am strong, and I am human.
I just regret sharing my heart and soul with you guys. I really tried to fit in. That is all I wanted. I do not know why it is so hard for you guys to accept that simple fact. I am lonely, up till the point that I am going insane. Sometimes, one does not need a diagnosis to claim that one has a problem. Isn't distress and cry for help enough? Actually, I really do not know why I do not fit in here, or in real life. Well, in real life, I do not talk or express myself much. I just kind of act out impulsively once in a while, and then I get in trouble. God help me.
I perfectly understand the dilemma here. The question is not why I am taking up so much of your time and energy. But why do I have to fit in. I think some of you tried to be open-minded but the majority rules. I do not think this is a situation to really feel bad about it, but just to accept that sometimes it is better for the sanity of the service not to think and not to question too much. Unfortunately, I am being trained to think as part of my education.
There was a time that I really needed you guys, and you responded in volumes. For that, I am very thankful. I think I presented myself as a very controversial person, even through I did not mean to. In retrospect, I have learned a lot about human to human interactions here. Good or bad, it doesn't really matter because when I first registered, I had almost no clue how to interact. It sounds extreme, but it is somewhat true. Carry on as before. Farewell.
P.S. I hope that my schoolwork and exams this week will go well; else I am going to lose it. I just feel sad (not angry or mad) that things worked out as is. But at least now I have reasons to believe why I fear social interactions so much. I know it is bad to retreat again, but I'll just have to hope for the best. After all is said and done, I only have tender feelings for you guys because I am incapable of emotions. How am I supposed to feel? Some people on this board tells me (when I read between the lines) get lost! Leave us alone! Don't rock the boat! But others tells me you are welcome as long as you try and fit into the mode... I do not want to go on because it is really not my place to analyze. It just did not work out for me. Period. Too bad for me that you guys were the only form of interactions I had. How am I supposed to think about this? Answer: Don't think and just fit into the mode. Well, I guess I am just too stubborn and naive.
Sincerely,
No one knows my real name because I lied (And that is the first and last lie that I have told on this board)
Posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 22:47:29
In reply to Re: Post-postings Evaluation, posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 22:42:40
> To all,
>
> I am sorry that I could not fit into your "family". I did not mean to upset the rhythm of this group. I understand that in order to sustain the degree of genuine support among yourselves, the atmosphere has to be secure, and the relationship has to feel tight. Afterall, that is why there is such a discipline called psychotherapy.
>
> I do not think any more surfaces should be scratched. I empathesize with your fear that the whole service will fall apart. It is really too bad because I think this service has a lot of potential to provide and to give. But there are some kinks that need to be worked out.
>
> Personally, I think this service has both helped and hurted me. But the details are irrelevant now.
>
> From the bottom of my heart, I wish you guys good health and cheers. And even through I am not religious, I hope God will help me through tonight and tomorrow. And maybe the next day? I think now is the time for me to believe that I am strong, and I am human.
>
> I just regret sharing my heart and soul with you guys. I really tried to fit in. That is all I wanted. I do not know why it is so hard for you guys to accept that simple fact. I am lonely, up till the point that I am going insane. Sometimes, one does not need a diagnosis to claim that one has a problem. Isn't distress and cry for help enough? Actually, I really do not know why I do not fit in here, or in real life. Well, in real life, I do not talk or express myself much. I just kind of act out impulsively once in a while, and then I get in trouble. God help me.
>
> I perfectly understand the dilemma here. The question is not why I am taking up so much of your time and energy. But why do I have to fit in. I think some of you tried to be open-minded but the majority rules. I do not think this is a situation to really feel bad about it, but just to accept that sometimes it is better for the sanity of the service not to think and not to question too much. Unfortunately, I am being trained to think as part of my education.
>
> There was a time that I really needed you guys, and you responded in volumes. For that, I am very thankful. I think I presented myself as a very controversial person, even through I did not mean to. In retrospect, I have learned a lot about human to human interactions here. Good or bad, it doesn't really matter because when I first registered, I had almost no clue how to interact. It sounds extreme, but it is somewhat true. Carry on as before. Farewell.
>
> P.S. I hope that my schoolwork and exams this week will go well; else I am going to lose it. I just feel sad (not angry or mad) that things worked out as is. But at least now I have reasons to believe why I fear social interactions so much. I know it is bad to retreat again, but I'll just have to hope for the best. After all is said and done, I only have tender feelings for you guys because I am incapable of emotions. How am I supposed to feel? Some people on this board tells me (when I read between the lines) get lost! Leave us alone! Don't rock the boat! But others tells me you are welcome as long as you try and fit into the mode... I do not want to go on because it is really not my place to analyze. It just did not work out for me. Period. Too bad for me that you guys were the only form of interactions I had. How am I supposed to think about this? Answer: Don't think and just fit into the mode. Well, I guess I am just too stubborn and naive.
>
> Sincerely,
> No one knows my real name because I lied (And that is the first and last lie that I have told on this board)
Note: As the subject suggests, please do not reply because I really do not want to get my hopes up again. I do not know why I set myself up to take the falls. Live and learn, I guess.
Posted by pullmarine on October 18, 2000, at 3:46:42
In reply to Re: Post-postings Evaluation, posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 22:42:40
Hi Rzip.
Personally,
I really enjoy your posts, and your absence from this site would be felt quite strongly.
Thus, as far as I'm concerned please keep posting.
Perhaps you are controversial to some, but personally, I've found your posts to be full of insight.
No one here is forced to read what you, or I, or anybody else posts. So if they don't like someone's line of thought, then they should skip the post and stop b-tching.
And remember, without deviance from norms, progress is not possible.
love,
john
Posted by Snowie on October 18, 2000, at 7:13:53
In reply to Please do not reply; farewell, posted by Rzip on October 17, 2000, at 22:54:23
Tei (or whatever your name is),
This was not about you per se. Please stay. Help the group, and help yourself.
Peace and happiness,
Snowie
Posted by Snowie on October 18, 2000, at 7:39:47
In reply to Post-postings Evaluation, posted by shar on October 17, 2000, at 21:30:46
Shar,
My last post on this subject as well.
I agree with you. Everybody seems to be apologizing now for silly little things for fear of upsetting someone. Dr. Bob is a pretty good referee with his "please be civil" posts. I haven't seen any such posts lately. However, when do these heated arguments become too much?
I was a member of a Listbot a while back, and there was a hard, fast rule: If at any time you became truly angry at another poster for any reason, any correspondence to that poster was to be done by private email. Consequently, we had some great group discussions, and conflicts were rare.
Snowie
snowie98@hotmail.com> I will post once more because I don't want people to be afraid to post their true opinions, or withhold posting because they don't want to be "negative." It is a given that, because we are human, we will disagree at times, and disappoint each other at times.
>
> I hope everyone understands I am not advocating a farewell to kindness.
>
> I don't see the above series of posts as an argument, but a discussion that included disparate views, and some heated words, but very much a part of how it is in the real world.
>
> My concern is about withholding, which I can see as being identically as negative as exchanging a few harsh words. And the harshness was ironed out, not left to fester and linger as grudges. I'm paying $30 every Monday night to learn how to do that.
>
> So, I am not left feeling there was a big argument or to-do. To me it's a success in the sense that people said what they felt and believed, some agreed to disagree, and it seems to me everyone ended up with their ideas expressed, acknowledged in some way, and parted friends. Perhaps there are secret grudges or undercurrents I did not pick up on, but it felt really healthy to me.
>
> My main regret was that, as part of the discussion, Rzip, you did get "talked around" and that is uncomfortable and unpleasant. I would not know right now how to avoid that happening, but I'm sure there is a way to be more inclusive.
>
> Shar
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.