![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by LadyBug on March 19, 2011, at 11:45:57
In reply to Thanks Deneb + » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2011, at 10:35:09
(((((Dinah)))))
I'm still around, though I don't post, but I wanted to respond to you and tell you how sorry I am you are going through this. I can only imagine how it hurts, I can relate to how much. I certainly hope you can process this. In time you will know what to do. I survived a major rupture with my former T. I really never got over it 100%, even to this day I can remember the pain of what she said to me when my daughter was pregnant and placed her little boy for adoption. This was and still is the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my entire life. It will always hurt, (the adoption). I'm just grateful it's an open adoption and we get to see him. He just turned 3 last week.
I think I know how you are feeling in many ways and I'm sorry. I'm here for you and support you with good thoughts. Time heals most things, not completely but it becomes less painful with time.
You are an amazing person. You've been such a huge help to me since I found this site. I read some posts almost everyday but I don't choose to respond but I couldn't "NOT" let you know that I'm thinking about you at this time.
Our T's become so important to us, what they say to us is multiplied many times bigger than just someone else telling us something. I'm not the greatest at explaining myself like some people are in this group. Know that I care and want the very best outcome for you always.
You and many others are still in my "babble friends" place in my heart. I care so much about you and others that are still around.
Warm regards,
LadyBug
Posted by tetrix on March 19, 2011, at 18:45:00
In reply to omg, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2011, at 11:17:22
I am very sorry Dinah, I was outraged when I read this post of yours.
This is unacceptable. The amount of power that these people have over their clients puts them in a position of great responsibility. To say things out loud without thinking them through, and how they would affect a person who is already struggling with difficult issues is not only unethical but also borders malpractice. I can only imagine the pain this have caused you.
Posted by annierose on March 19, 2011, at 20:55:58
In reply to Re: Thanks Deneb + » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on March 19, 2011, at 11:43:33
(((Dinah))))
I am shocked and saddened reading this thread. Of course the wisdom on this board far exceeds the wisdom in your T's head at the present time. "What the f*ck?" as my teenage daughter would say, "was he thinking?" NOT .. apparently. There are no excuses.
But the loves remains and it becomes such a burden. We love our therapists despite their foot in mouth moments.
And I must say, I hate that you were calling him. HE should be calling YOU, apologizing, trying to explain his words. Not that I don't understand your need to call him. You are hurt to the core - a kick in the gut type of feeling that lingers.
Give yourself plenty of time before coming to any conclusions. You might want to leave an open door to your heart. You love him despite his flaws. Give yourself the gift of time.
And take good care of Y O U!!
(I have been out-of-town with a high school group, without internet access, or I would have replied sooner. My heart goes out to you.)
Remember you get to decide if this is the end or not. Not him.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 7:03:52
In reply to Re: Thanks Deneb + » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on March 19, 2011, at 11:43:33
I suppose it's possible that over time I can come to see it as being another instance of stress in his home life causing him to be temporarily insane. Certainly Friday *must* be, to some extent, for him to not only say things he's never said before (even if he's thought them), but to persevere in saying them even when I was trying my best to reflect back to him what I was hearing and how I was understanding it.
Either that or my getting upset with him for some really egregious examples of falling asleep, and telling him for weeks now that I didn't think I could go on this way, made him angry with me. And consciously or unconsciously lash out at me. Even the falling asleep lately has been so aggressive, if that makes sense, that it has seemed like he is trying to tell me something.
I can't continue this way, of course, no matter what his reasons. It's not therapeutic at all. But maybe I can come to see it as not being a negation of the last fifteen years of therapy. Maybe of the last few months of therapy...
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 7:07:19
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by LadyBug on March 19, 2011, at 11:45:57
Ladybug, it's wonderful to hear from you. I think of you often, especially in times like this. There are all too many of us in long term therapy with negative experiences.
I think you explain yourself very well, and I hear the understanding of the shock and betrayal.
Thank you for speaking up. It means a lot.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 7:14:04
In reply to Re: omg, posted by tetrix on March 19, 2011, at 18:45:00
He does have a tendency to blurt. The more I think on it (as much as I try not to), the more I see some anger on his side in what he did. In what he's *been* doing. And the more I see it as somewhat understandable from a human side, if not a professional side.
Or maybe he is just bored with me and wishing I'd move on.
Thanks, Tetrix.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 7:32:58
In reply to Re:omg, posted by annierose on March 19, 2011, at 20:55:58
Well, they weren't conciliatory calls on my side. They were angry calls as I one thing after another flashed into my brain of what he said. Finally I realized that I was working myself up into a full blown meltdown, and called him one last time to try to stop myself from falling over the edge. I think during the day at least it's helped. It all feels fuzzy and unreal.
The more I respond to people, the more I see that therapy has been spiraling down for months. Probably since the time I was pulling back from Babble. I had pulled back a bit on some boundaries, perhaps more forcefully than I should have. I didn't say anything directly, but I was a bit more vigilant about not responding to topics that were about him. I perhaps did mention at least once, in a totally different context, that he was my therapist rather than a friend. I think I'd grown to see, and perhaps resent, that he was more animated when talking about himself than when talking about me. Not that that isn't fine in a friend, but I don't pay my friends for their time. I felt really bad and guilty about pulling back on those boundaries, because I do care about him, and maybe if the topic hadn't have been his wonderful job at weight loss and exercise, I might have been more tolerant.
Then the issue of sleepiness was getting to be more and more a bone of contention. Not that he ever disagreed with me. In fact, after I showed him the thread from Babble on the topic, he was properly understanding of how hurtful it could be. But it got worse. And worse. Until it was almost ludicrous. Until it appeared to be some passive aggressive way of showing anger and contempt for me. I would cry almost every session at what felt like a slap in the face from his lack of focus and engagement. I'd leave every session feeling like such a loser that I couldn't even pay someone to pretend to be interested in me.
And of course, I had needed him less lately, and had expressed this to him. He seemed glad and proud, rather than upset. Now I wonder how much those feelings arose from the fact that he wasn't being all that helpful because he wasn't being all that present. Chicken and egg I suppose.
It just snowballed.
Even now I am not sure whether he's acting more from being glad I need him less and wanting to do his part to see that accelerated, or recognizing that he was feeling less engaged because I do need him less. Or anger from any hurt feelings I may have given him.
Though hurt feelings would imply more feelings of attachment than I currently credit him with. I think I've been fooling myself about that.
Posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 9:34:33
In reply to omg, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2011, at 11:17:22
http://www.jung-at-heart.com/jung_at_heart/
all about sleepy therapists ... it doesn't shed much light on the subject, but at least you'll feel less alone
Posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 10:49:57
In reply to omg, posted by Dinah on March 18, 2011, at 11:17:22
Have you been able to reach out to your husband for support? Our complex relationship with our therapists are sometimes difficult for spouses to understand. But once in awhile, my own husband can suprise me with supportive understanding (and I stress "sometimes").
Love you and hope you are able to sleep as sleep can be so healing in a way that calms the brain and the body.
Posted by emmanuel98 on March 20, 2011, at 19:22:43
In reply to Re:, posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 10:49:57
Dinah - I am sorry this ending so badly after such a long relationship, but OTOH, you have been complaining about him falling asleep, seeming dis
engaged for a long time.
I saw a p-doc for therapy for five years. We cut back to once every 3 months for meds, which was too hard on me, and now see one another every months.
One of the things I have always found hard about him, but also respect about him, is that, for the very beginning he has raised again and again, what are we doing here? What are our goals?
By year five, we both realized there wasn't a whole lot left to do together. Ending the relationship would be hard on me and we would do that gradually, but he does dynamic psychotherapy and we had pretty much gone deeply enough into my past and my emotions and responses and defenses that there wasn't much work for us left to do.
He wanted me to find a DBT therapist to work with so I could get more help in building my tolerance to distress and regulating emotions.
There's something to be said for this, although I found it painful often. Otherwise therapy can drag on endlessly to the point where neither the therapist or client really know what they're doing together, yet there's too much dependence to terminate cleanly and lovingly.
So maybe it's time for you to end or, as you put it, stop making appointments with him for the time being.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:26:40
In reply to Re: omg - timing of this article, posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 9:34:33
"A little while ago, at a dinner party, I met a prominent analyst, a Kleinian. He is the first therapist Ive known socially, and I confided in him. Id like to go back into therapy, but all four therapists Ive seen in my life have fallen asleep. He didnt laugh. Nor did he ask me how I felt. Instead he took it in, turned it over in his mind, then said, very carefully, Well, the common denominator here is you.
The comment lingered, as any stab wound to the chest would. Then, a week later, he e-mailed me a PDF. In the past I noted a tendency in myself to become drowsy with two patients, wrote the analyst Edward S. Dean in a now-infamous 1957 paper. At times this drowsiness became so strong that I desired more than all else that the hour end, that I be rid of the patient and could take a brief nap. I was surprised to observe that as soon as the patient left, I became instantly fresh and alert.
I think I'll never talk to anyone again as long as I live.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:28:33
In reply to Re:, posted by emmanuel98 on March 20, 2011, at 19:22:43
I know you mean to be helpful, and I'm glad it's been helpful to you. But thinking of it that way really upsets me.
I think I need to not think about this at all, or to blame him. I can't bear to think of it any other way.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:29:58
In reply to Re: omg - timing of this article » annierose, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:26:40
I mean in person.
I must be terribly objectionable in person. In fact, I've always known I was. Maybe therapy helped me think I might be wrong. Stupid me.
Posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 19:31:54
In reply to Re: omg - timing of this article » annierose, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:26:40
Well I hope that's not true because I will be talking to myself waiting for your reply.
I guess I should have read the article more closely. I didn't want to further hurt your feelings, just let you know that your therapist isn't the only idiot that falls asleep. And mind you, you haven't seen 4 therapist with 4 therapist all falling asleep. This article is NOT you and your therapist.
Personally, I've never fallen asleep reading your posts.
As Partly Cloudy (or was it Poet) would grant: cyber slaps to your t.
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 19:44:47
In reply to Re: omg - timing of this article, posted by annierose on March 20, 2011, at 19:31:54
I knew that would come out wrong. I'm sorry. I didn't mean you, or online even. In person I'm not very appealing. My therapist even said he was fine with other clients and thought "Oh no. She's going to taaalk."
And yet even that didn't hurt as much as what he said Friday.
Well, maybe it did have a lasting effect. Maybe that was the beginning of the end. I don't think I've ever gotten past that. In the past I'd probably work hard to get his attention and help him stay awake. Since he made that remark, I'm more likely to trail off on whatever I'm saying and look around for something else to talk about. Or just cry.
Maybe total honesty wasn't such a good thing, even if on a surface level it didn't hurt nearly as much as the remarks about not knowing why I was there. It probably made me more like the self conscious and stiff person I am in general in person.
Posted by LadyBug on March 20, 2011, at 20:39:18
In reply to Re: Dinah » LadyBug, posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 7:07:19
I continue to think of you Dinah. This doesn't go away in a day or two. The pain is hard to process. It hurts emotionally and physically, like a punch in the gut!
My T said to me, "why do you keep bringing this up" in the remaining sessions that I had with her. Sometimes I feel like we faked our way through putting our relationship back together. She was sick of me at that point, I know she was. She was going to retire so I had no choice, I had to let it go the best way that I knew how.
Are you going to go back or give it a break for now? Therapy is so draining.
You know what? I'm doing really well emotionally. Now over two years later, I'm better now with my emotional being than I ever was while I was seeing my T. I still dream about her, quite often as a matter of fact and it's always good. That must say something about our work together. I believe I saw her for almost 12 years? That's sad, I don't remember.
I will continue to think of you and I hope you keep us updated as you feel you can.
Ruptures hurt especially if it brings an ending to a huge part of our lives. I feel you will know what is best. One day at a time right now.
LadyBug
Posted by Dinah on March 20, 2011, at 22:39:53
In reply to Re: Dinah, posted by LadyBug on March 20, 2011, at 20:39:18
I'm not anticipating going back. And it sounds as if he wouldn't be all that keen on it either.
I think I'm mostly cushioning myself with denial and fuzziness and hoping that I can keep that going until I have completely forgotten who he was to me.
I'm glad you're now thinking of your therapist in a positive way. I'm not sure I'll be able to manage that. I think when I feel rejected, the best I can hope for is emotional divorce.
Posted by Dinah on March 21, 2011, at 7:02:44
In reply to Re:, posted by emmanuel98 on March 20, 2011, at 19:22:43
I'm sorry, Emmanuel.
I think I am moments from tears still. I'm sure once that passes, I'll be more logical.
Posted by LadyBug on March 21, 2011, at 20:58:27
In reply to Re: » emmanuel98, posted by Dinah on March 21, 2011, at 7:02:44
(((((((Dinah)))))))
Posted by Tabitha on March 22, 2011, at 1:50:07
In reply to Re:, posted by LadyBug on March 21, 2011, at 20:58:27
Hi Dinah,
I'm so sorry this has happened. Please use your least harmful coping mechanisms while getting through this. You're a lovely soul.
Posted by Dinah on March 22, 2011, at 8:03:31
In reply to So sorry, posted by Tabitha on March 22, 2011, at 1:50:07
Thanks Tabitha. Risperdal is a wonder, and good old denial is helping.
He called last night as he said he would when I told him I just couldn't handle it anymore, and needed to consider it just as having no appointments scheduled indefinitely.
He reframed it well, in that he took far more responsibility onto himself and far less on me. I'm not sure the difference means anything in terms of result, and I doubt I'll ever forget what he said, but I do appreciate his focusing on how he lost track of the meaning of therapy to me and didn't do a good job of negotiating the shifts that were taking place in our relationship.
He also was far clearer that it was my choice, not his, when to terminate. And said that his remark about termination was meant as a way of remarking that he hadn't been really in tune with what was going on between us rather than an expression of regret that we continued on, or some sort of threat that he would do that.
I still think this says about the same thing, albeit it in a less offensive manner. And one that makes it clear that if I want to continue, he'll do his best to do better. At least he didn't make matters worse by his explanation.
I'm not feeling any desire to return, and be upset again by his lack of engagement. But at least I'm feeling like that's my choice again, rather than his.
I'm going to be like Scarlett I think, and think about this "tomorrow". I'm not sure when tomorrow might come. Maybe the best thing is if I just keep detached myself, and it becomes a non-issue.
Posted by jane d on March 22, 2011, at 8:11:46
In reply to Re: So sorry » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2011, at 8:03:31
Posted by annierose on March 22, 2011, at 8:42:13
In reply to Re: So sorry » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on March 22, 2011, at 8:03:31
It is so complicated.
I'm glad he reached out to you and admitted his culpability in what transpired.
Whatever you decide to do or not do, is your choice. I don't think there is a right answer or a right thing to do ... just what is right for you.
I've been thinking about you and sending you calm energy.
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2011, at 6:56:19
In reply to Thinking of you (nm) » Dinah, posted by jane d on March 22, 2011, at 8:11:46
Posted by Dinah on March 23, 2011, at 7:02:00
In reply to Re: So sorry » Dinah, posted by annierose on March 22, 2011, at 8:42:13
Yes, this is more what he should have done to begin with, if he said anything at all.
I may feel differently down the line, if I don't emotionally divorce him (as I'm very prone to do). But for right now, the idea of going is aversive to me.
The situation hasn't changed from the unacceptable it was before. And it's not like he actually unsaid what he said before. He just said it much better. Sometimes therapy would benefit from asynchronous communication, I think.
Thanks, Annierose.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.