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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Verloren on December 29, 2009, at 1:33:32
So I saw my T last week and as usual I concentrated on diffusing the awkwardness I feel during the session by using humor.
I had decided to ask for a hug, as a gift to me, for Christmas. (tis the season). But she refused, saying that she didnt feel like it was a good idea and that it would be unprofessional of her.
I laughed and mostly shrugged it off, joking with her about it, but really I was hoping shed see that I didnt want to hug her for the sake of hugging. I wanted desperately to get rid of these lingering feelings of loneliness. And I wanted to feel cared for by her. I get these weird thoughts that its all about the diagnosis for her. That she really doesnt care about whether or not I get better, but rather she wants to peer into my mind and figure out whats going on in there that makes me the person I am. Maybe thats not true, but I just wanted to relate to her on a human level and she wouldnt even do that. I feel like its not fair that she should laugh and take pleasure in enjoying my humor if, when Im upset or tormented, she wont also have compassion toward my needs.
I also think she was worried that my wanting a hug had to do with the transference. I asked for the hug just a few sessions after admitting my love for her, so I guess the timing was bad. Its possible the transference was playing a part, but at the time, I didnt feel sexually inclined toward her, rather like a child needing comfort.
It sort of confirms my belief that I am unhuggable/unlovable which is something she knew I was struggling with recently anyway.
I wonder if she would have hugged me if I had never told her about my transference feelings. Now Im starting to regret telling her at all if its going to affect the way she is with me from now on.
To top it off, Im still having an intense need to see a T (Ada) that I did a consult with a short while ago. I feel like telling Ada about the hug situation. Im struggling to not call her because I agreed with my T that I wouldnt see two Ts at the same time.
-Verloren
Posted by emmanuel98 on December 29, 2009, at 4:07:18
In reply to All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Verloren on December 29, 2009, at 1:33:32
A lot of T's don't believe in hugging. Mine would never hug me or even shake my hand at the end of a session. They do worry about transference, which is not just about having sexual feelings, but can also be intense, child-like adoration and wanting T to care for you as a parent cares for a child.
I am in the process of ending therapy with my T of five years and today I told him that I'm grateful for his strong boundaries. The therapy relationship is so intense and intimate (for some people anyway) that it would be unbelievably easy for T's to muddy the water with hugs and personal revelations and role reversals. If my T had done that, I now understand, I would have left my marriage for him and destroyed my life for him.
You don't need to talk to Ada about this. You need to talk to your T about it. Why is a hug so important to you? How do you think it would impact your feelings about her? Why do you assume that she doesn't care about you just because she's set this boundary? My experience is that good T's care a lot about their clients and show this, not by hugging, but by bearing witness to our struggles with kindness and compassion.
But they can't be our parents. Nobody can. They can't give us the unconditional love that we failed to get when we were young. Maintaining boundaries is very important. You're lucky to have a T with good boundaries.
I feel like its not fair that she should laugh and take pleasure in enjoying my humor if, when Im upset or tormented, she wont also have compassion toward my needs.
>
> I also think she was worried that my wanting a hug had to do with the transference. I asked for the hug just a few sessions after admitting my love for her, so I guess the timing was bad. Its possible the transference was playing a part, but at the time, I didnt feel sexually inclined toward her, rather like a child needing comfort.
>
Posted by lingonberry on December 29, 2009, at 9:49:47
In reply to All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Verloren on December 29, 2009, at 1:33:32
Hi Verloren,
Im glad you are still here. I have a lot to do right now and therefore not been able to respond, but I have followed your threads and I think you are both a lovable and honest person. Dont ever doubt it.
>> So I saw my T last week and as usual I concentrated on diffusing the awkwardness I feel during the session by using humor.>> I had decided to ask for a hug, as a gift to me, for Christmas. (tis the season). But she refused, saying that she didnt feel like it was a good idea and that it would be unprofessional of her.
>> I laughed and mostly shrugged it off, joking with her about it, but really I was hoping shed see that I didnt want to hug her for the sake of hugging. I wanted desperately to get rid of these lingering feelings of loneliness. And I wanted to feel cared for by her.
Of course you want, because you are hurting, but isnt that why youve got in to therapy in the first place to uncover all those ugly suppressed feelings so you can be healed? When I had those feelings I reminded myself of how much I had long for them, that I unfortunately never got them from my parents (although all my memories were completely denied at the time). I was just blown away of how much I wanted to be loved validated, listen to, hugged, heard, cared for and so on. And I said to myself: I have been running from those feelings my whole life, now is my job to feel all those hurtful feelings so that in time, I can validate and love myself instead of wanting this from others, because that made me so vulnerable and moreover, gave me a sense of powerlessness. I had no sense of a self and was dependent on others.
>>I get these weird thoughts that its all about the diagnosis for her. That she really doesnt care about whether or not I get better, but rather she wants to peer into my mind and figure out whats going on in there that makes me the person I am. Maybe thats not true, but I just wanted to relate to her on a human level and she wouldnt even do that. I feel like its not fair that she should laugh and take pleasure in enjoying my humor if, when Im upset or tormented, she wont also have compassion toward my needs.I know it sounds weird, but the fact that your T dont give you any hugs shows that she really cares about you and take her job seriously. Because her job is to make you see how much you want this from her, not actually give it to you. If she does, she is making you dependent on her and thats not loving.
>> I also think she was worried that my wanting a hug had to do with the transference. I asked for the hug just a few sessions after admitting my love for her, so I guess the timing was bad. Its possible the transference was playing a part, but at the time, I didnt feel sexually inclined toward her, rather like a child needing comfort.
>> It sort of confirms my belief that I am unhuggable/unlovable which is something she knew I was struggling with recently anyway.I know how difficult it is to get rid of these negative messages. So therefore, and maybe you dont believe me when I say that you are not unhuggable/unlovable. You see, thats your problem, your self-worth makes you dependent on others, how other treats you and what they are saying to you. You are huggable/lovable simply because you are you. We have been deprived of the most basic, essential need of a human being to feel validated for whom we are with all our flaws, to be loved because we are we. I saw a film, in which a girl was very much loved by her father. She looked into her fathers eyes and they reflected nothing but love. It was so simple; She knew he loved her because she was his daughter. Thats all, how can he not love her she is his daughter. That realization was the most wonderful experience because it showed me what I had been missing all my life. My goal is to feel and give this love to myself, and Im on my way.
>> I wonder if she would have hugged me if I had never told her about my transference feelings. Now Im starting to regret telling her at all if its going to affect the way she is with me from now on.>>To top it off, Im still having an intense need to see a T (Ada) that I did a consult with a short while ago. I feel like telling Ada about the hug situation. Im struggling to not call her because I agreed with my T that I wouldnt see two Ts at the same time.
I think thats one of the major goals in therapy trying to stay with ones feeling no matter what, and then share them with our T. She wants to help you, but you have to let her know what you are feeling and trust her. In that way we start to believe in ourselves, taking care of ourselves and start to grow and become independent.
I know how it feels living with an internal saboteur, constantly picking down on oneself, therefore I ´m trying to give you some hope. And I hope you get a feeling of love and kindness from me, because I think I can be pretty direct and therefore people sometimes mistake me for being harsh. Its not my intention at all. I dont have the right answers. I just want to share my own experiences with you. I hope all this makes sense, if not, take it for what it is, just my experience.
A BIG hug! ((((Verloren ))))
Lingonberry
-Verloren
Posted by Nadezda on December 29, 2009, at 11:55:53
In reply to All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Verloren on December 29, 2009, at 1:33:32
Hi, Verloren.
I can totally understand what you're feeling.
Sometimes, though, hugging a T can actually make you more lonely, because it intensifies your longings and sense of deprivation other times. Even if the wish comes from non- sexual feelings, like wanting to be close, or to be more important --it's still transference. And no matter what thing our Ts do or don't do, we would doubt and question that-- and keep on torturing ourselves about whether they "really" "meant" it-- . It''s a doubt or fear more about whether we're worthwhile-- and we somehow focus it on our Ts and convince ourselves that they could fix if only they would do one thing or another.
By the way, some Ts would hug a patient, if it felt right-- so don't feel that there's anything wrong with wanting a hug. It isn't a rejection, though, if a T isn't comfortable with that.
My T would never hug me. He might shake my hand I think, if I asked him-- for a special occasion. Maybe he would even do it at the end of appointments. I wouldn't ask, though, for some reason. He's very clear about boundaries and his sense of what's professional conduct--, and wouldn't do what he thought violated that. It really is better that way--- Those feelings mostly just have to be worked on emotionally, rather than cured by having your T do something. That's kind of bad news, in a way-- but eventually, you'll probably come to think that. I know I have.
I'm glad you're resisting the temptation to see Ada. It may mean something about your history that you want to see two Ts-- in a psychological sense-- and might be something to think about,. It would cause a lot of trouble and get in the way-- if you gave in to the temptation, especially without your Ts agreement. It's very hard-- but that you are doing it is a testament to how much you value and respect yourself-- maybe without knowing it. So there's a lot of hope in that, as difficult as it is.
Nadezda
Posted by Sigismund on December 29, 2009, at 16:39:01
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Nadezda on December 29, 2009, at 11:55:53
It might have something to do with the fact that you asked for it. You know what therapy is like when it comes to volition (counter-intuitive). My T used to hold my hand when I was in tears, but would not have hugged me had I asked for it. The less you ask for the more you get?
Posted by rnny on December 30, 2009, at 13:23:25
In reply to All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Verloren on December 29, 2009, at 1:33:32
I would be upset too. After all, you were just asking for a hug. There isn't anything wrong with that as far as I am concerned. People hug all the time. I even see it in the workplace! I only lasted 3 sessions but was in group therapy with a male leading it and he wouldn't hug anyone. I found that a bit disburbing. I was turned on sexually by him but that wasn't the reason I wanted to hug. I wanted to hug for caring's sake but he wouldn't allow it. I felt very rejected and thought his policy was a poor one. In fact he didn't even want to shake hands!
Posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:30:37
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas, posted by emmanuel98 on December 29, 2009, at 4:07:18
Thank you emmanuel,
I hope congratulations are in order for you being able to end your therapy.
I agree, this process is intense.
We discussed it, and I feel like I needed her to even further justify to me that she actually cares about me. I have a lot of issues with not believing that people can truly care about one another.
I hope Ill appreciate her boundaries one day. I think even if she did hug me, it wouldnt have the feeling behind it that I am craving and would ultimately be a huge letdown anyway.
Thanks for your clarity,
-Verloren
Posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:34:04
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas » Verloren, posted by lingonberry on December 29, 2009, at 9:49:47
I do see where I could get very dependent on her even more so if she hugged me. I would want them all the time. And eventually the session would be about getting hugs instead of getting better. That said, little emotional kid me still kinda wants one. I suppose itll take time before that passes. She did ask me if I had other people in my life I could hug instead, so I will work on finding them.
My T and I talked it over and although I still want to hug her, we are trying to work through why I'm feeling this way now. Part of it is that I am very lonely.
Youre not being harsh, and I am very grateful that you took this time to relate your feelings to me. I cant believe how alien I felt just several weeks ago and now I feel like others finally know how I feel. But it is hard and lately I feel even more down than before.
Thanks for being here. I hope you know I really do appreciate you. And my T seems to like the idea that I have a support group to turn to.
-Verloren
Posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:44:03
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Nadezda on December 29, 2009, at 11:55:53
I guess I feel so lonely right now that its hard to imagine feeling any lonelier. But I definitely wouldnt want that.
Im putting a lot of expectation on her that she can fix me. If she doesnt, Im afraid Ill fall irrevocably even further into despair. I dont know how I should stop expecting so much from her.
It hurts that she cant/wont be what I want. I feel like I never get what I want, cant I just this one time.
And it is so hard resisting Ada. Not as hard as it used to be, but hard. I literally cannot describe the feeling that goes into me wanting to see Ada. It is not transference, Im pretty sure. It is less complicated than that. More like an instant connection of understanding. That might sound foolish I guess. She is supposed to give off the sense of being someone easy to talk and connect with. But I guess the best way I can say it is that she reads me. She is able to read me so well without my having said much at all that it surprises me. I feel like no one ever knows the real me because I can hide so very well. But I cant hide from her. Ada sees it anyway. WOW. I just actually now realized thats how I felt as I typed this out.
Thanks for being here and thanks for listening,
-Verloren
Posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:45:53
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas, posted by Sigismund on December 29, 2009, at 16:39:01
Hmm, I was tempted just to randomly, spontaneously hug her (or try to) at the end instead of asking, but didnt want to be that person who violated her space like that.
This is a very difficult process. I wish I could see the end.
-Verloren
Posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:47:23
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas, posted by rnny on December 30, 2009, at 13:23:25
I agree also. Especially the child me agrees. But then I think, if she had hugged me and it was cold and distant, then that wouldve felt way worse than not getting a hug at all.
I do wonder how much of the no touching policy is to protect us or to protect their butts from potential legal issues. I can see it either way. But I think we forget the whole argument that touch is and can be very therapeutic and healing. It would make sense to combine therapy and touch in my mind but I guess thats not really possible.
Im sad. I still want to hug her. I know it wont ever happen. I have to find other ways to convince myself she cares.
This is hard
-Verloren
Posted by Nadezda on January 2, 2010, at 14:35:55
In reply to Re: All I wanted for Christmas » rnny, posted by Verloren on January 2, 2010, at 13:47:23
From what I've read, maybe the key to feeling better about her not hugging you, really is to feel more sure that she really cares.
The caring, and your certainty about it, and its presence for you, will grow over time, too. That's what happened between me and my T. For a long time, I couldn't feel between sessions that he was even there-- and it took much longer to feel that he cared, and to feel it especially when there was nobody (including him) to reassure me. It could be that some of your low self-esteem comes from not knowing or being able to feel another caring person's constant presence, whether they are or aren't physically present. That's something that you might have to work on and will find very helpful over time.
You'll probably always want sometimes to hug her-- but it does get a lot lot better. To the point, where I never think about it-- or only on rare occasions. I wouldn't have believed I could ever get to this point, so even if it feels impossible, it can happen.
I'm sorry you're sad about it, though.
Willful
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