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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
hi everyone. thanks for helping me get through the last few days. i met with my T tonight. i apologized and told her i was grateful she didnt terminate me. she was glad i said sorry.
she told me it was not the fantasy that pushed her over the edge. it was that i pushed her to her limit with the fantasy and the following session i showed no signs of remorse.
i think i was so caught up in being angry it didnt even occur to me to apologize until she basically threw me out of there.
we had a good session and i think i can learn from this and move past it with her.
one thought came to mind. have any of you read alice miller? she talks about rage and censorship in her books. she talks about therapists being unable to handle rage and that ends up causing censorship in clients and contributing to a sense of not being able to speak ones mind.
i know i am dancing a fine line here between straight up emotional abuse towards my T and being able to say what I feel...and im just processing aloud here....but i think what is happening is not that she is trying to censor me...but rather feels that i completely disrespected her and her basic needs in a relationship, therapist/client, human to human...whatever you want to call it.
so its much less about her not being able to tolerate much rage and more about her expressing discomfort and me completely ignoring it (perhaps).
ill keep talking with her about it. thanks again.
Posted by emilyp on December 15, 2009, at 22:29:25
In reply to met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
Two comments:
Isn't it possible to express the feelings of rage without being rageful? Are you able to express the depth of your emotions without pushing her over the line? At the very least you should try, let her know that you will try but there might be a chance that you are not always perfect. But at least let her know what you are attempting,
I understand her issue of disrespect. On one hand you got frustrated that she did not fully understand you and how bad you were feeling. In essence, you want her to 'respect' your feelings and issues. For therapy to work, in many ways it does need to be a two way relationship. If you don't give her basic level of respect, I can understand that it might be hard for her to treat you. It is hard for any relationship, even a therapeutic one where the therapist is primarily there to help you, to be one sided when it comes to something as basic as respect.
Posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 23:15:59
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by emilyp on December 15, 2009, at 22:29:25
i think it is possible to express those feelings and be respectful. i think i crossed the line and was not respectful.
for some reason, this is difficult for me to accept. i do not believe i should be allowed to disrespect people.
i think what is hard to accept is that she was offering to help me and i did not respect her. i think its shameful and appalling to me that i would behave that way.
Posted by Helana on December 16, 2009, at 7:44:31
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy » emilyp, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 23:15:59
Deerock I am still confused as to how you disrespected her. I thought I remember you writing that you asked if you could share a violent fantasy with her and she said yes. You were not raging or upset just expressing the fantasy and it pushed her over the edge. What happened that she perceived to be disrespectful? The fact that she perceived disrespect is all that matters, but I'm confused as to whose therapy this is...hers or yours? Is she expecting you to take care of her needs as well? How are you to work on you and be completely honest if you are going to worry about disrespecting her again? I agree that emotionally abusing a therapist is a fine line, but at the same time the anger is transference, isn't it? Shouldn't the therapist know this and not take it personal because transference is when therapy is working?
Posted by deerock on December 16, 2009, at 8:09:39
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by Helana on December 16, 2009, at 7:44:31
Helana,
I like what you wrote. It put into words my confusion and I am still confused.
I expressed the fantasy, calmly. She broke into tears. This crossed her ability to absorb my anger. She said it brought her to her threshold of what she is able to tolerate.
The following session, she showed up late. I was still angry. This time I said "why the hell are you late???" I was angry at her directly. I did not know that it was my anger after telling the fantasy that toppled her, not the fantasy itself. And she told me she was late because of how difficult our previous session was. And I went on...like "oh, so youre f*ck*d up just like my mother. i make you made and you punish me by being late..youre so f*ck*d up." and she basically threw me out at that point.
I think it was brazen behavior from her perspective. She said that since I pushed her to the edge and just ignored it and kept on getting angry, it made her feel she was no longer able to work with me.
So i have no idea. should she have allowed me to act that way or did i cross a line? i dont know whats supposed to happen in therapy and what these people are supposed to put up with. did i act something out and she should not have gotten in my way?
Posted by southernsky on December 16, 2009, at 9:52:01
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy » emilyp, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 23:15:59
"so its much less about her not being able to tolerate much rage and more about her expressing discomfort and me completely ignoring it (perhaps)."
Deerock,
In one post you wrote about your T being uncomfortable with telling her of fantasies that include killing her dog you didn't show empathy when she was upset...I have to tell you that in my experience, it is one of the most uncomfortable feelings when someone is not able to connect with my painful feelings, to not recognize my humanness or acknowledge they have hurt me whether it be intentional or not. It is very triggering and feels objectifying. I would not expect a T to not be uncomfortable with this just becaues they are a T. It is human nature...T or not..emotionally stable or not...Has she told you she would be censoring you for now on? If so, then I would be worried...But for some reason, I do not think this is the case. I think what you said above is right on the mark-it wasn't about the fantasy itself, it was your reaction to her discomfort. It seems you already saw that blaming her for the anger you held was a transference feeling...If you look at your posts from the beginning, first you held her responsible (or 1/2 responsible) for your rage, and even blamed her for your having those feelings. Then you got pissed at her for reacting to it and having feelings and needs-for being upset. But from what you've written after speaking to her, it appears you completely understand the reality of the situation. You went from disillusion to learning, and seemingly to acceptance then hopefully now to problem solving.
You said "i think it is possible to express those feelings and be respectful"
I think it was Ligonberry who also said that and I totally agree with you....But it seems you are getting confused again, which is very understandable. You've said before you have blamed others for angry/rageful emotions (when perhaps the only person who can truly be blamed is a parent although we can't dwell on that and use as an excuse to not change), and wanted to invoke fear in others in the past.But I see considerable insight and a healthy way of understanding this situation on your part from what you've written here.
Our patterns of relating with others come out in therapy and are wayyyyy exaggerated, which you probably already know by now. I just said something to my T that he felt uncomfortable with; we did not make a point to discuss it because we were in the middle of discussing my issue at the time. I'm going to bring it up next time, though, because it reflects an unhealthy way I relate/have related to people. I think I hurt his feelings....In doing so, I saw a major insight reflecting on this when I got home later. Talking to him about this will only lead to my self growth-even if he points out what I said was unhealthy and disillusioned....
I guess what I want to say is that if you take every negative thing that comes out of therapy and see it as a learning situation, as unpleasant as they are, with a good T, the situations that upset you will lead to a positive outcome--your self growth. And it seems that is exactly what you have done here and i hope you stay on this path :P
Posted by Helana on December 16, 2009, at 10:43:26
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy » Helana, posted by deerock on December 16, 2009, at 8:09:39
So I am hearing that you expressed your feelings about something that made her uncomfortable. She "acted out" first by showing up late which triggered you to be angry and attack her verbally at which point she threw you out, clearly setting a boundary for herself. If i remember correctly you first got angry when she was late right? How did you feel when she was late? When you said you are just as crazy as my mother I feel like there is some transference just waiting to be explored. I think it would be very beneficial for both of you to explore what happened. Her being late symbolized something for you that you probably felt often as a child. Did you feel like you could express your feelings when you were young? Did you feel pushed away when the feelings were overwhelming? Did you feel punished? Maybe like you were to much to handle? How did it make you feel when she was late? What did you feel like you could or couldn't do from that point? What did it mean you must be like or not like? What do you tell yourself when she's acting the way she did?
I wonder if maybe the confussion is coming from a good place. That she still wants to see you and be your T. That she is not actually pushing you away she is only set bounderies for herself so she can still be of help to you. She wants you to express anger appropriately and she's giving you the chance to do that. Is that possibly the confussion? That maybe in previous relationships you didn't get that kind of second chance so it confirmed what you thought of yourself as a person and here she's not doing that? So it's confusing because it's not okay to attack in anger, but at the same time she's still accepting you? If you were to talk to your T right now, replace "you're as crazy as my mother" with how you were feeling at that moment and what you would like from her...no matter how crazy it sounds...and if you keeping getting angry responses like i feel angry and i'd like to punch you that's what I want right now, keep asking yourself why, why, why until you can't answer that anymore.
Thanks for posting and sharing with us deerock. Have a good day.Btw I may be totally out in left field and I am certainly not trying to persuade you or tell you what to think. I am just saying what comes to mind when I read your posts. I hope I don't ever offend you.
Posted by lingonberry on December 16, 2009, at 11:01:19
In reply to met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
Hi Deerock,
From Barbara Woods book Children of alcoholsim: "According to Winnicot a clients resistance or acting out always means that the analyst has made a mistake or in some detail has behaved badly and that the resistance will remain until the analyst discover the error."
That is not what happens here. It looks like you have to sort things out on your own. Your T is the one that should help you, by trying to interpret whats going on inside of you and show you how this situation probably is a "mirror of the original environmental failure situation" with your mom.
... Winnicot also warned that "the T who defend himself against the clients anger deprives a client the opportunity for being angry at a past failure just were anger was becoming possible for the first time.
My T acts like a T with great confidence, calmness and understanding and has never defended himself against me, no matter what I have said to him. He always gives me right in the middle of a throe. Probably because he know its not the right time trying to make se what Im doing. As long as Im in denial he just wait for my denial to crack. So, I think you need to talk about your T ability to hold your anger, thats one of the reasons you are in therapy.
Lingonberry
Posted by Dinah on December 16, 2009, at 11:39:01
In reply to met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
What sort of therapy does your therapist do?
It might be that psychoanalysts are more likely to be able to tolerate rage?
After all, if your therapist does CBT therapy, for example, she would be more likely to see herself as your partner or teacher in helping you find healthier ways to interact with the world. She might see therapy as a microcosm of your world, and use your interactions with her to help you improve your relationships with others.
My therapist has said flat out that he has limits and he expects clients to respect them. He always has been fine with my expressions of rage, but in discussing the fact that he's fine with it, he's been clear that if it was continuous, he would consider that he wasn't perhaps the right therapist for a client. To be clear, that wasn't a threat or an attempt to control my behavior. He's been clear that I've never been anywhere near his boundaries. It was just an expression of how he sees the role of client rage in therapy. He thought it was very therapeutic of me to express my rage, because I am sometimes not in touch with my anger towards him until a week or so later. But if it were habitual with me, he thinks it would be unproductive for the sort of therapy he practices.
He's not an analyst, and I think he thinks that therapy is a place to examine my behaviors and cognitions and how they affect my life. I think he'd probably work on helping me look at how I respond, point out how it might not be in my best interests, and how to express myself in a way that pragmatically brings better results.
She will deal with your rage, as with all things, in keeping with her theoretical orientation. If this doesn't meet your needs, it's fair to acknowledge that and seek someone who does. Perhaps an analyst. It would be something to ask up front, I think.
On the other hand, her style of letting you know how your words affect her, and that boundaries are important to her, might help you in understanding the reactions you get from others in your life, while at the same time she reinforces the fact that she wants to work with you and is committed to your therapy.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on December 16, 2009, at 13:42:45
In reply to met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
Alice Miller is one of my endorsements (for my memoir)......
Posted by emilyp on December 16, 2009, at 14:09:36
In reply to Re: met with the T after rage fantasy » deerock, posted by Dinah on December 16, 2009, at 11:39:01
Dinah said it as well, if not better than anyone.
Yes, therapy is a chance to express yourself and deal with issues that you may have not properly dealt with as a child. At the same time, you are an adult and you need to learn to deal with relationships, even when such relationships generate or provoke anger. Yes, you may need to understand why that anger keeps boiling up - i.e. there were some issues when you were younger. But if you use that as the rationale behind getting angry with your therapist, it will be difficult to maintain a relationship with her. And as Dinah said, it will no doubt affect relationships with others in your life
Posted by rnny on December 16, 2009, at 16:19:50
In reply to met with the T after rage fantasy, posted by deerock on December 15, 2009, at 21:01:50
you showed no remorse? (per your T). it is not your job to cater to the emotions of your T!
This is the end of the thread.
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