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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 5 to 29 of 30. Go back in thread:
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2009, at 7:41:18
In reply to Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by TherapyGirl on April 16, 2009, at 20:33:50
You might want to ask your therapist just exactly how you are to get through this inevitable loss. It is insufficient to just say "you'll get through it" without suggesting how to go about it.
Sometimes it helps to know that each and every day, someone is losing their psychotherapist for one reason or another. You will lose yours, too.
You can have your next therapist help you work through and understand the loss you feel for having left your present one.
Dinah did a wonderful job of equating your loss with grieving for a death.
Since I am not a psychotherapist, I can afford to be insufficient in telling you that you WILL get through this, particularly because you have no choice. How you go about getting through it is up to you. It is that simple.
- Scott
Posted by LadyBug on April 17, 2009, at 11:10:51
In reply to Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by TherapyGirl on April 16, 2009, at 20:33:50
I know what you are going through as my T retired in December. It's painful, there's no doubt there. I thought I'd continue to see my T for as long as I liked, not so. She told me she was retiring in July, I was a little shocked at the time. We were having a major therapy rupture at the time and I took a six month long break. She let me know in a letter. At that point, I had to decide if I should return or just leave it open ended. I decided I needed to return to have some closure. It was hard, but we made the best of the final 6 sessions I had with her. She was retiring at a very critical time in my life. The previous year was full of major challenges for me. A year I hope to never have anything that even compares to it.
Our last session was really special. She was my world, the one that knew me the most, the one I loved the most outside of my kids. I thought about her almost the first thing each day as I woke up. Most nights I'd curl up to go to sleep and think of her. It brought me comfort. She brought me comfort in a way no one else ever has. She was the mom I never got. I looked up to her in every way.
It's true, it's harder than a death. I know she's out there somewhere and it's hard that I can't contact her. I relied on her so much. She welcomed me to leave her a voice mail when I struggled with things between appointments. My heart hurt telling her goodbye that final day. I didn't want to cry, but I couldn't quite hide the tears. I had a special ending.
A long time ago, I had given her a little girl figurine which she kept on her book shelf. That little girl represented myself. She was curious and full of love, ready to give that love away if she could trust she'd be safe in doing so. I also had given her a special small bottle of lotion to keep on her shelf. I loved the color purple, the lotion was in purple bottle with a grape scent. At our final session as I was leaving she asked if I wanted my things back. I asked her what would happen to them if I didn't take them back. She said they would be put in my "file". They were part of my work, not her property to keep. I decided to take them with me. I took the lotion and asked her if I could give her some to rub into her hands, part of me she could rub into her skin. It was a very special moment. Even though it hurt and I was hurt she was "leaving me". I made the best of it. I had too. I had to accept the fact she was retiring and I'd no longer have her in my life.
It's been 4 months now, the pain was really intense for a few weeks. I've dreamed about her a few times and it's made me miss her so much it's painful. But overall, I carry the feelings of our work and our success. I wish I could see her, say hi, go to lunch, give her a hug or anything. But I can't. I want to hear her say, "I Love You" one more time as she did tell me that at our last visit. We did have a strong connection and I miss that. I loved her with my whole heart and soul.
I know you don't believe it now, but you will get through this, not without pain, but you will be ok. I promise. My T told me that she knew what I was feeling as she went through a powerful termination with her T. She told me she missed him immensely but in time it got to a tolerable place for her. I am finding that to be true for me as time goes by.
Keep writing about your feelings. I know I sure used my babble friends to share my feelings with. Like you, I had NO ONE to share what was going on with me and my therapist.
LadyBug
Posted by muffled on April 17, 2009, at 11:11:53
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on April 17, 2009, at 7:41:18
((((((TG)))))))))
Have you worked on looking for a new T?
I think this is a must do.
I would hunt on my own, but T can support you thru your anxiety about it, and good questions to ask etc.
I think it would be extreemly beneficial to have someone external to the relationship to help you thru this loss.
I think it could possibly feel like a betrayal to you as well as a death. Which makes it doubly hard.
I think this is likely very hard for your T as well, and so its very hard for her to approach this objectively and professionally. Your a nice person TG, so of course she cares, so ya, its gotta be hard for her too.
I think this is going to be, not impossible, but very hard for you two to sort thru this by yourselves.
You CAN find a new T.
T searching sucks, but its not that bad.
Kinda approach it in a very professional way. You are seeking a service.
And you may not find the right one first try, but you CAN find a T to help support you.
One that you can feel OK with. One you can talk to and yell at and cry with as needed.
Please do not, in your anger, shut your mind to this possibility.
I truly wish the best for you TG. I think you have lots to offer this world. You just need to get thru this very difficult time.
Its may sound sappy as hell, but we DO grow thru all these adverse things. We learn, and we can share our learning and compassion with others when the time is right.
There is a place in this world for all of us....just sometimes its hard to know what it is. Cuz we can't see too good while we healing, but once we get thru the crap, then, then our time will come! And its gonna feel good!
I am looking forward to one day being able to show others real love and caring. Its inside me, I just am too confused and afraid right now.
But I gonna be OK.
I gonna let others know about love.
I gonna help others in pain.
I gonna share burdens.
I gonna make this world better in maybe only small tiny ways.
But I gonna make it better.
I gonna add good.
Thats my plan.
Maybe you can share my plan too TG, I think its a good one.
I think you got lotsa love to share too.
((((TG)))
Muffled
Posted by Zana on April 17, 2009, at 12:27:41
In reply to Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by TherapyGirl on April 16, 2009, at 20:33:50
What a terrible loss. I feel very badly for you and can't imagine what I would do if my therapist was leaving me. I am also a therapist and I really agree that your therapist should welcome your grief and validate your feelings of loss. At least you have the Babble community and lots of people here who have written beautifully about their relationships and losses.
I hope it helps.Zana
Posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2009, at 12:36:27
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by Zana on April 17, 2009, at 12:27:41
Is it inappropriate at a time like this to say I envy this close realationship you had with your therapist? I wish you well. Lots of great advise. Phillipa
Posted by raisinb on April 17, 2009, at 13:24:19
In reply to Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by TherapyGirl on April 16, 2009, at 20:33:50
TherapyGirl,
No, it is not okay for her to leave you. And yes, you will get through it, because, as Scott says, you will have to. Plus, you have the strength and you have babble. You can talk to us about it and we will understand.
Please tell her that she *has* to acknowledge what effect this will have on you and that you must work through these feelings as best you can. It's possible that her guilt and loss are preventing her from being totally open to this process. But that's her problem, really. For your sake, she needs to be there during this.
(((TG)))
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:43:02
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by obsidian on April 16, 2009, at 21:44:35
Thanks, Sid. You're probably right that I shouldn't be without a therapist, but I've been pretty adamant that I won't have another one. It's just too hard. And it's not the therapy per se that has helped me in my darkest hours -- it's the connection to this T. I can't just recreate that elsewhere.
I don't know what I'm going to do. Obviously, we need a better plan than the one I've come up with, which is to no longer be on the planet once she's gone.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:49:33
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2009, at 21:46:44
As usual, Dinah, you nailed it. WHY in the heck would I want to make it through this if all I see is pain and all I can hope for afterwards is some kind of numbness?
I do want to clarify that she will have some contact with me. Obviously more limited than what I pictured before I knew she was moving across the state. But I will be able to talk to her on the phone and see her I don't know how often. On this, we can't seem to agree either.
It's just not enough. She is trying to understand. She said something last night about me thinking that I can't survive without her. It's really not that -- it's that I'm really just done with all the pain. She predictably mentioned that I'm not the only one on the planet with pain and a hard life (she put it slightly more diplomatically than that). I've never claimed to be. I'm not making this decision for anyone but myself and I'm saying I'm done. I just can't see my way through this and I don't want to. She says, "That's your choice." I feel like giving her a high five and saying, "EXACTLY. That's what I've been telling you." But she says it with lots of disppointment in her voice.
And that's a whole other issue -- somehow she seems to feel like a failure if I'm suicidal. So how can I talk to her about any of this, really? We have completely different agendas here.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:50:16
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by FindingMyDesire on April 17, 2009, at 0:07:47
Thank you so much for this, FMD. It brought tears to my eyes.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:55:32
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on April 17, 2009, at 7:41:18
<<You might want to ask your therapist just exactly how you are to get through this inevitable loss. It is insufficient to just say "you'll get through it" without suggesting how to go about it.>>
We think alike, Scott. I actually said to her last night, "You don't seem to have a plan. *I* have a plan, but you don't like it and you're not helping me come up with an alternate plan."
She jumped on that and said, "Well, let's come up with an alternative." But that's all she said, other than some abstract thing about me internalizing her. It's really not helpful. If I haven't done that sufficiently now, after 24 years, I'm thinking it's not going to happen in the next 7 or 8 months.
Frankly, she can't win here. There is nothing she can say other than, "I won't leave you" that will make this okay for me and she won't say that. It's frustrating as hell. I have no idea why I'm even still going except, as usual, I can't be the one who leaves. Ever. No matter what. Abuse me (other people, not T), abandon me, whatever. I don't leave. It's sick, isn't it?
And, oh yeah, I'm not going to another T. I just don't have it in me to do this again. I really don't.
I do appreciate your support, Scott, and I continue to know that you are a total sweetheart. Thanks for being here in this horrible place with me.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:58:17
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by LadyBug on April 17, 2009, at 11:10:51
Thank you, LB. I do remember reading about your last session when it happened, but it's nice to be reminded. I think you handled it perfectly.
I can't even think about the last session without hyperventilating. I think my heart might just stop beating when we get to that point. I think I'd prefer it to.
Thank you for sharing this with me and for being so wonderfully supportive.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 20:04:02
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by muffled on April 17, 2009, at 11:11:53
<<I gonna let others know about love.
I gonna help others in pain.
I gonna share burdens.
I gonna make this world better in maybe only small tiny ways.
But I gonna make it better.
I gonna add good.>>You already do this, Muffly.
Thank you so much. You know I'm stubborn as hell and I'm not going to a new T. I really am not. I get that it's probably a good thing to do, but I just can't go through all that again. It took me four years to talk to this T. I don't have four years to spend in this hell. I really don't.
I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm not going to therapy anymore after she leaves. I'm just all done.
It doesn't feel exactly like betrayal, but close. I do know that she cares about me. But I also know that my life is a house of cards, populated by people who are NOT my mother (T), not my lover, not my kids. I have pseudo people in my life. And they leave me. Because they have to go be with their real family.
Thank you for being a real friend in my pseudo world.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 20:05:17
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by Zana on April 17, 2009, at 12:27:41
Thanks, Zana and welcome to Babbleland. This is a very special place and the only place where I can talk about my T to people who REALLY understand.
My T does not exactly welcome my grief, but she does name it and she tries to validate my loss. We just disagree on what to do about it.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 20:07:04
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by Phillipa on April 17, 2009, at 12:36:27
It's not inappropriate, Phillipa. We do have a special relationship and she has been wonderful to me. She basically raised me and she healed a lot of the damage done by the family I didn't choose. It just doesn't feel like enough in the face of her abandoning me. But I do get that I'm lucky to have had her these 24 years.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 20:08:54
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by raisinb on April 17, 2009, at 13:24:19
I do think she's not at the top of her game, due to the family stuff that happened last fall. That's unfortunate for both of us, I think. It makes it even harder than usual for her to deal with my suicidal self. And it makes her responses less effective.
But, as I said to Scott, she really can't win for losing here. There is nothing that she can say that will make this okay for me.
Thanks for being my friend, Raisin. I really do appreciate it.
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2009, at 20:18:08
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » SLS, posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:55:32
> And, oh yeah, I'm not going to another T. I just don't have it in me to do this again. I really don't.
I think this may be where you and I aren't alike in our thoughts. I likely would see another therapist. It really wouldn't be doing it again, because your relationship with your therapist was unique to the two of you. You'd be doing something different with someone else. I might not want forever therapy with the other person, but I'd hope they could help me through the very painful time.
I might not want to tell my therapist that, though. I'd probably feel like it was letting him off the hook somehow. And I wouldn't want to do that. (Although I've asked him to give me a list of therapists he thinks would be good for me, should heaven forbid something happen to him. I'm not sure if he gave it to me or not.)
Posted by SLS on April 17, 2009, at 20:32:23
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » SLS, posted by TherapyGirl on April 17, 2009, at 19:55:32
What a bad time to lose such an important component of your life. Having to end a 24 year relationship with a therapist would be incomprehensible to me. How do you comprehend the incomprehensible? Your loss must feel more visceral than intellectual. I would be sick to my stomach. How can you fill such a hole in your life? Of course it will seem that no one else could possibly do that. If you are looking for a therapist that can fill that exact hole, you won't find one. What you might find is someone who can help you fill it in for yourself.
Perhaps you need to be without a therapist for a little while to see where you are at cognitively and emotionally. You can keep a journal describing your thoughts and feelings on a daily basis. You might better evaluate your needs this way, so that when you do see someone new, you will know which issues need attention. I don't know. It does sound rather simplistic.
I can conceive of many different healthy paths that you can travel, all of which will depend on your willingness to make decisions. My obstacle to being able to give advice tailored to your psyche is that I really don't know anything about it. Your current therapist probably does, though. I would really like to impress upon you the urgency with which you need to come up with a plan to move forward and towards a healthier you.
Some people here at PB try to help others by looking for the perfect drug treatment to suggest where appropriate. I am looking for the perfect words to help you deal with a crisis. I am afraid that I have none.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 18, 2009, at 6:41:58
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by SLS on April 17, 2009, at 20:32:23
I would like to add that when you start seeing a new therapist, you do not have to start all over again. The growth that you achieved does not leave you. You might not sit mute in front of someone new the way you did when you first started seeing your present therapist. You are a different person than you were 24 years ago. You must surely be stronger and more verbal.
You might be scared to death to see someone new - maybe even more scared than losing someone old. If this is true, perhaps you can explore this fear with your current therapist before deciding what to do next.
- Scott
Posted by muffled on April 18, 2009, at 10:32:58
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by SLS on April 18, 2009, at 6:41:58
<Thank you so much. You know I'm stubborn as hell and I'm not going to a new T. I really am not. I get that it's probably a good thing to do, but I just can't go through all that again. It took me four years to talk to this T. I don't have four years to spend in this hell. I really don't.
<It doesn't feel exactly like betrayal, but close. I do know that she cares about me. But I also know that my life is a house of cards, populated by people who are NOT my mother (T), not my lover, not my kids. I have pseudo people in my life. And they leave me. Because they have to go be with their real family.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((<Thanks, Sid. You're probably right that I shouldn't be without a therapist, but I've been pretty adamant that I won't have another one. It's just too hard. And it's not the therapy per se that has helped me in my darkest hours -- it's the connection to this T. I can't just recreate that elsewhere.
<I don't know what I'm going to do. Obviously, we need a better plan than the one I've come up with, which is to no longer be on the planet once she's gone
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((
<As usual, Dinah, you nailed it. WHY in the heck would I want to make it through this if all I see is pain and all I can hope for afterwards is some kind of numbness?<I do want to clarify that she will have some contact with me. Obviously more limited than what I pictured before I knew she was moving across the state. But I will be able to talk to her on the phone and see her I don't know how often. On this, we can't seem to agree either.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
Ya lots good said here.
I really like how scott presented some stuff. Well worded.I was mute long time w/first T.
She went nuts trying to help me speak. Used walks, dogs, being outside, I dunno, LOTS. Mostly she just teach me stuff, cuz I not talk. She teach me it OK to talk.
Now w/new T, I was able to talk some right away.
I still not good at it, and after a year, i still not quite trust, but i working on it.
I do OK mostly w/life, but ya. sometimes things seem to go off the rails.
So ya, I still need T to be the best I can be. And while I not connected to new T like old T yet, I still feel at least like I got someboddy out there that knows the real ME more, cuz rest of world see's only parts of me. Mebbe that kinda like your pseudo thing you talking about.
TG, you gots lotsa niceness, but you in a hard place right now. But you can crawl out and be better, and then get people into your world. But it kinda hard to do that while all messed.
Sorry this is choppy, I keep going back to read your posts.
So you 'adamant' that you not gonna get a new T. Hmmmm, sounds kinda like you mad huh? Kinda stubborn huh? Kinda makes me smile in a way, cuz I admire stubborness :-) but then if a body gets too stubborn, well, that I not admire so much.......
See, you CAN develop a relationship w/a new T. Like I said, I still working on it w/mine. And its getting there, but takes time.
I dunno, its just I dunno exactly what is driving your cry of I AM NOT GETTING A NEW T. ? Cuz you KNOW that you need to, you said so. You just being angry and stubborn and making it harder on yourself (maybe self punishment??) and I used to do that ALOT. Still do sometimes.
But depression messes up out thinking, stress does too.
So mebbe I just tell you what I would tell you if you was my f2f friend...
I would kick you butt (quite possibly literally :-0!!!) and I would work with you to find a new T. Would drive you there to some trial interviews etc.
I can't do that via internet.
How, with my words can I tell you I DO care, and I don't want you to do that which is gonna cause you more harm.
OK, so lecture over.
I not mean to piss you off, but I care is all.
And FWIW, I think a new T is allus good, cuz sometimesa I think if we w/same T for too ling...then growth is challenged, cuz we get stuck in ruts over and over.
A fresh new perspective can be a breath of fresh air.That is also an untrue statement, 'that all I can hope for is numbness'. How do you KNOW this to be true?
I thot same when I almost blew my head off, but I didn't do it, and I here, and I glad I here, But at the time, I didn't, COULDN'T see nothing else.
So mebbe you gotta allow us babblers to help you 'see', to help you challenge your distortions of thinking.
Cuz I am seeing distortions.
What you could hope for, is more peace, you could hope for a days where you can see beauty, you could hope for some genuine hugs, you could hope to give and receive some heart warming smiles.......
And, yes, T is not dead, she still gonna be out there.
Like my old T, I still comminicate w/her from time to time.
And you can do that w/your T.
The relationship will be different, but she still there.
And ya, I thinkl some VERY clear parameters for communication would be very helpful to say the least.
So I hope this post don't come across too harsh TG, its just you seem kinda stuck in a loop, and I want to push you outta that loop so you can move ahead.
Its what I do for a friend.
An aquantance...I might just kinda say placating things, but to a friend, well, I gonna tell 'em what I think, right or wrong, and hopefully, if there's trouble over it, we work it out, and on we go.
Its hard for me, cuz I been reading your posts awhile TG, and see much that is good.
I hope you can bust out of your darkness and reach out to new ideas and hope.
I kinda nervous to post this.
Sorry if I incponsistant in posting to you, cuz I kinda raw from time to time.
But I still out there, and I do think of you.
Best wishes to you.
And sincer I kinda seem stuck in a kick butt mode....mebbe you could give that T of yours a kick from me?
Hmmmmm.
I think I gonna have to analyze myself and this butt kicking tendancy I have....
Hmmmm,
fodder for T!
On I go!
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by Therapy Girl on April 18, 2009, at 16:53:26
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2009, at 20:18:08
I just can't seem to get there. Maybe I'll feel differently once she actually retires, but I can't even imagine it right now. I don't know. I know it feels like I keep asking for help and then I don't take people's advice. But I just can't think about doing therapy with anyone else. Probably mostly because she has felt like my mom for nearly the whole 24 years I've been with her (even when I wasn't talking). I may be able to someday have a different relationship with a different T, but I just can't get there right now.
Posted by Therapy Girl on April 18, 2009, at 16:58:18
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by SLS on April 18, 2009, at 6:41:58
Thanks, Scott. You have given me a new way to think about it. You are right that it makes me sick to my stomach. When I found out she was also moving across the state after retirement, I told her I could barely stomach her retirement when I thought she would be here, but with the move added in I was just sick.
I will keep and re-read your posts and try to think about it some more. Your words are perfect - it's me who can't put them to the best use.
Posted by Therapy Girl on April 18, 2009, at 17:34:16
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by muffled on April 18, 2009, at 10:32:58
Muffly, you've given me a lot to think about and you're a good friend. I will re-read your post and think about this and then I'll try to respond more fully later.
I will say that I've always been adamant about the new T thing, even when I'm not depressed. But I will think about all that you wrote. I appreciate the time, effort, thoughtfulness and friendship you put into this.
I appreciate you more than I can express.
Posted by muffled on April 19, 2009, at 15:09:32
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » muffled, posted by Therapy Girl on April 18, 2009, at 17:34:16
Thanks. Glad you thinking.
You take care.
I kinda all over but I be back sometime, no worries.
Ya, you take good care OK?
This all is hard, but it not ompossible, and it not forever.
((((TG))))
M
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2009, at 17:56:32
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger** » TherapyGirl, posted by Dinah on April 17, 2009, at 20:18:08
> I might not want to tell my therapist that, though. I'd probably feel like it was letting him off the hook somehow. And I wouldn't want to do that.
I told him that today. He promised not to see it as letting him off the hook, and also said he remembered that I said he should be ready to commit me when he terminated me.
I really like that my therapist *gets* how big this is. At least he seems to at this point. That hasn't always been true. I asked him if it would still be true if it were inconvenient for him. He said that he thought that yes, it would. I like that he thought about it.
My therapist really has grown to understand I think.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 21, 2009, at 18:05:39
In reply to Re: Too much pain **Trigger**, posted by Dinah on April 21, 2009, at 17:56:32
I think you're right that he really does get how huge it is and I'm glad for you.
I think my T gets it in moments, but then it makes it too hard for her or she's emotionally worn out or something. She's done that a number of times over the years, where suddenly she starts acting like she has an office job where what she does doesn't impact me or others. You know? I think she gets tired of having such a big effect on me.
I'm glad your T can shoulder the responsibility.
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