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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 17:50:48
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:38:34
"I went and joined a gym today. And got a movie at the store. It was hard to get out but I did it. One minute at a time."
It sound like you are doing some pretty damn healthy coping. More credit to you.
I read what you said about loving him; only you know yourself and what's best for you. I acknowledge that, Yellowbird, just was thinking about the Borderline issue your therapist brought up..I won't make any other comments in that regard though, as it was not constructive (sorry).
It might help to pamper yourself when you feel up for doing again-manicure, pedicure; French green clay facial; bath in sea salts.. candles..chamomille tea...soft music.
Watch Under the Tuscan Sun!
Hang in there Yellowbird :)
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 17:50:48
Thanks. I posted maybe a month ago about my therapist and her love for the borderline diagnosis, even in times when it clearly doesnt apply.... I've had many other mental health professionals who disagree with borderline dx for me. I'm sure that post is in the archives if youre interested. I think I'm handling this pretty "normally"...
Thanks for the suggestions. I'm trying to be nice to myself.... I need to think about eating something this evening so off to do that I guess.
Posted by SLS on February 15, 2009, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
> Thanks. I posted maybe a month ago about my therapist and her love for the borderline diagnosis, even in times when it clearly doesnt apply.... I've had many other mental health professionals who disagree with borderline dx for me. I'm sure that post is in the archives if youre interested. I think I'm handling this pretty "normally"...
Agreed.
If you were borderline, you would be clinging and frantic and begging, and then break out into an uncontrollable rage and be nearly psychotic. You would have no self-esteem or even a sense of yourself, which you clearly do.
Actually, you sound surprisingly strong given what you have related to us. I have no doubt that you will take good care of yourself.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 22:03:52
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 15, 2009, at 18:46:32
Thank you Scott. I know in my heart that while I certainly have my issues, borderline (or any personality disorder) isnt one of them at this time in my life. Once you get that label though, its next to impossible to get rid of.
Thank you for your compliment. I'm trying so hard to be strong... having babble to lean on helps.
> If you were borderline, you would be clinging and frantic and begging, and then break out into an uncontrollable rage and be nearly psychotic. You would have no self-esteem or even a sense of yourself, which you clearly do.
>
> Actually, you sound surprisingly strong given what you have related to us. I have no doubt that you will take good care of yourself.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by Garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 22:40:17
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 17:57:46
Maybe your therapist is borderline. You never know..
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » SLS, posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 22:03:52
I thought I might just say a few words about feelings of being in love based upon my own experiences with it. When you are in love, you don't have much choice about feeling that way when you wake up in the morning. If you go to sleep in love, you will wake up in love. You do have some choices with what you do with that feeling, though. You can:
1. Let it be.
2. Nurture and encourage it.
3. Allow it to die.If you don't allow it to die, you will remain in love.
If you let it be and make no attempt at processing the loss, it will probably linger for some time to come.
If you nurture and encourage it through fantasy and hope and the belief that it will be requited one day, the feelings may actually get more intense and deep-seated. You will not fall out of love.
Allow it to die if you are convinced that this is what is healthiest for you. It will die. You need to believe that. It has happened with countless others that they allowed themselves to fall out of love. I managed that feat myself. Once I made the decision that I would no longer pursue a life with someone I was deeply in love with, the process of falling out of love began. I wanted to fall out of love. Time without contact with this person helped immensely. When she did call wanting to get back together, I said no, despite still having feelings for her. I never lost sight of my goal to move on to something that was healthy for me and move away from what was unhealthy for me. I knew that she was unhealthy for me. I kept reminding myself of all the reasons I did not want to be with this person. I would sometimes come up with additional reasons as I moved through the process of separating my heart from her. You need to use your mind to accomplish this. Eventually, your heart will follow. Feelings of being in love begin to recede. You might be surprised at how fast they do. Even if it happens later than sooner, it will happen. In the meantime, begin to move forward and leave this man behind.
You know, it is funny what Seldomseen said about selling the necklace. Even before his posting that, I had thought of the same thing - that you should defray the costs of the gifts you gave to him by selling it. I am only half-serious, though. I don't want to minimize the value you might place on it. However, I would probably put it away somewhere so that you are not likely to see it.
Again, if you decide to wait for this person, I would not judge you. I would support your desire to be happy.
- Scott
Posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:33:14
In reply to asking for support, coping skills (very long), posted by yellowbird01 on February 15, 2009, at 12:35:34
Hi Yellowbird,
I'm so sorry for this loss. I agree with others that you don't sound as if you qualify for a full-blown personality disorder diagnosis. Psychology is not a hard science, and different practitioners can disagree on diagnoses. That's why my personal belief--and one my therapist seems to share--is that diagnoses in therapy are just not helpful.
Recently, I experienced two tough losses. I broke up with my boyfriend, and four days later, my therapist went on maternity leave. I still haven't found out when she'll be back.
A close friend of mine who knows me very well gave me some advice. It sounded counterintuitive to me, but it seems to be working. First, he said, don't be alone too much. Second, you tend to dwell on your emotions and panic that you won't be able to deal with them. Much of your depression comes from ruminating about whether you'll be depressed (not all, of course). So literally, "kill time until you feel better."
My friend's not the depressive type, so take this with a grain of salt. But I went out and bought seasons of Lost (a show I can get totally absorbed in), played computer games, lost myself in work, and spent time with friends. I told them exactly what was going on with me and that I'd appreciate spending time with them.
And so far, I seem to be okay. Maybe some of the same things will work for you. The cliche that "time heals" is sometimes true, if you allow it to die, as Scott so eloquently said.
Lastly, when your grief overwhelms you, try not to be afraid of it or fight it off. Emotions have "motion" in the word, and if you truly experience them, without dwelling after the fact, they will move through you and pass. And you will be the stronger for it.
I wish you peace.
Posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:35:52
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 16:48:38
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 17:18:35
In reply to I'm a She! No worries though! (nm) » SLS, posted by seldomseen on February 16, 2009, at 16:48:38
LOL
It is funny how we ascribe gender to people with no real information.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:26:43
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by Garnet71 on February 15, 2009, at 22:40:17
HAHA yes, that may be. It would certainly explain why it's on her mind so much.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:34:35
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 16, 2009, at 9:22:12
Wow.. this is very helpful and makes a lot of sense. Thank you. I have read through your post several times. It's hard to allow myself decide to no longer pursue a life with him, as you said.. but that's really the bottom line to all of this. It's also exactly what makes it so hard. Letting go of everything I hoped, all the plans we had... letting it all go forever. Ouch. But the one thing he did give me was a clear statement that he doesnt want me anymore.. so really, nothing else (my hopes, dreams for us) matter. I can second guess his motives, his true feelings, whatever all day long but even if he DOES love me... it doesnt matter. He doesnt want to be with me. And why would I want someone who was willing to throw me away because of the possibility of getting hurt?
I'm doing pretty well today. Probably evident in what I've written today as compared to the weekend. One day at a time. I go see my therapist tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that.
I dont think my response gives your post justice as I got a lot more out of it that I'm able to put into words or understand right now. Thank you.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:43:28
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » yellowbird01, posted by raisinb on February 16, 2009, at 10:33:14
Thank you raisinb... all very good advice. I cant imagine how painful that was for you, boyfriend and T gone together... I'm impressed at your ability to write so well about it not too long later.
I'm trying to act in healthy ways, even if it's uncomfortable. For whatever reason, this experience has reminded me of my first year of college, moving into the dorms. I was painfully shy at that point in my life but I remember forcing myself to participate in activities and hang out with others because I knew logically that those first few weeks were the time to do it, whether I wanted to or not, because you can never go back to that point. This feels similar. If I allow myself to wallow in the pain and feel sorry for myself constantly, I'll slip right back into being very "sick" (severely depressed) where I was a year or so ago, because that's easy for me. I dont want to go there. I've recently joined a gym yesterday, sent an email to someone about the possibility of volunteering at the SPCA, and talked to a few old friends. At the same time, I'm allowing myself to spend money without being so concerned over saving for a week or so (not being crazy, but not obsessing over $1). I've bought a lot of junk food that I always want but never allow myself to have in the house. I bought something new for my walls today without obsessing over whether it truly fits my decor or not... I just liked it. Those things all feel very good to me.
Having support from people here on babble helps and means so much. I still want my ex back in my life more than anything in the world, but I feel not quite as alone. Thank you.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
In reply to Re: asking for support, coping skills (very long) » raisinb, posted by yellowbird01 on February 16, 2009, at 20:43:28
I saw my T today.
It was not the helpful session I was hoping for. Not at all really. I felt a bit attacked from the second I walked in the door. I told her about the necklace the ex gave me and she asked me repeatedly why I'd kept it (rather than giving it back to him). I dont really know why. Then she started asking about my cognitive distortions re: the relationship. I'm sure there are/were some, but it was too much to take. I shut down. We ended up arguing about the borderline label and me telling her how I feel like literally everything I talk about is evidence of me being unhealthy in one way or another. I feel the need to shut down and protect myself, which I also told her. She sort of got it, and said most of the right things... but I dont know, I dont feel like she really got it completely. She definitely does not get why the borderline label can be hurtful. I explained that I dont mind the depression diagnosis but BPD is different - she didnt get that at all. The whole session has shaken me pretty hard. I was/am feeling very vulnerable right now... the breakup is still VERY raw. Heck, the "no contact" with my ex just began on Sunday. I'm not ready to be pushed. I told her that.
One day at a time...
Posted by Garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:28:02
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
((((Yellowbird)))))
Don't have really any helpful words, but wanted to send you a hug.
Your therapist should be able to work at a level you are comfortable with...still thinking about her love of borderline dx.: P.R.O.J.E.C.T.I.O.N.
OR if not that, maybe you or your relationship remind her of herself in some ways...ways in which she has not yet dealt with properly or that bring up uncomfortable emotions for her. Therapists are just as human as the rest of us and have their own issues to contend with. Some are even LESS emotionally/mentally healthy than their patients.
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 16:44:57
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by Garnet71 on February 17, 2009, at 16:28:02
Thanks Garnet. I actually thought of you/your last post while in session today... the post where you suggested maybe SHE is borderline.
My T and I have a special connection. She has said so several times and I know we both feel it. I think that it's quite possible that part of the reason we do have a special relationship is because she can relate to me in some way. What that may be... whether it's something serious or not, I dont know... but I wouldnt be surprised at all to find out we have things in common.
I do think she's lying to herself if she thinks that the stigma/meaning of the label "depression" is equal to that of "borderline". I work in the field myself and I know how many professionals look at it. Therapy can make you question yourself a lot (for me anyway), to the point it can really confuse me as to what the truth even is.. but I KNOW that I'm not crazy in feeling this way.
She's a smart lady and I know that she listens when I tell her something isnt working for me. I know she wants to get it and wants to be helpful however she can. If I didnt know that, I'd have a lot less patience for this... but I know that she wants to help. I'll keep beating at it if I need to I guess... but I do strongly believe that my upset with this ISNT an indication of anything but me being normal. People here on babble have helped me understand that.
Posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 16:45:02
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
((((Yellowbird)))))
I don't understand why some therapists make things so complicated. I sometimes think they see complication in simplicity as a projection of their own need to feel smart.
I would not expect you (or me) to make all of the "right" decisions with great efficiency during such a traumatic time. That you decided to keep the necklace may not have been completely well thought out, but I don't think it is something that you should have been reprimanded for. Ouch.
Here's a question:
Why do you think that you kept the necklace?
There is no right or wrong answer.
However, the answer might be instructive.
You're OK, by the way.
- Scott
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 17:47:35
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 17, 2009, at 16:45:02
I deifnitely agree with you about the need of some therapists/drs to feel smart and make things overly complicated in an effort to do so. I believe that therapy itself can be a setup for this... one person (the therapist) being the guide, "all knowing" (supposedly) helper, and the other (the client) being the seeker of that help and knowledge. A strange relationship really.
I dont know that she was trying to reprimand me about the necklace really.. she seemed genuinely interested. There was a general feeling of "was that a good idea?" though. I think there are many reasons why I took it. For one, I didnt want him to feel rejected. The biggest reason though is probably that I was trying to hold on to any hope of our relationship continuing and deny that it was really over. To hand it back to him would have been a strong statement of "it's over" that I wasnt really ready/able to make. The rush of emotion during that afternoon while we were together was very intense and I'm sure I wasnt thinking straight. I may gave it back later.
I think I've accepted that it truly is over much more now than I had that day. I feel I've come a long ways in a few days. The anger has stated to replace the hurt and I find anger towards him much easier to deal with.
Thank you Scott. Your posts have been really helpful.
Posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
In reply to Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 15:53:15
You see, I'm just not a big diagnosis person. It just boggles my mind to think that something as complicated as the human mind can be bound by something as simple as "you have borderline personality disorder". Anyway, that's the end of my rant on that.
I think your therapist is actually trying to simplify your therapy and using borderline as pegboard to hang what she perceives to be unhealthy behaviours.
If there is ever a time in our life when we should be allowed some unhealthy behaviours (as long as they are not physically harming yourself or anyone else or committing emotional battery) it is just after the end of a relationship. Pish posh on the T's and their insistence that we be healthy all the time. Pish posh indeed.
Actually, the way you are handling all this IMO is amazing. You are reaching out for support, telling people what you need and giving yourself some space to figure all this out.
You go girl.
You know what I wish? I wish there were something like a coma pill. One that we could just take during hard times, fall into a deep meditative place and process hurt, but not be at all aware that we are doing it. Then BING! we could wake up and it's all over. Of course, I also really wish that Gandalf was real, and that there were fairies in my morning glories.
So I might be a little "touched".
One day at a time, one foot in front of the other. The road you are on leads to peace.
Seldom.
Posted by rskontos on February 17, 2009, at 20:28:56
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
I think that while she, your T, thinks she is being a therapist and discussing the dx. she is actually doing more to undermine your
relationship.From what I know, about BPD, would be that your behavior if you were BPD, that once your boyfriend did something wrong, like breakup with you or say he did not want to see you anymore, you would turn on him like a mad woman. YOu did not do this. You have been coping with very well. A BPD would then turn and get so fixated on the therapist or someone else until that person did something wrong etc etc.
I know you have a close relationship with your T but I don't hear an unhealthy amount of transference which I believe is the behavior of BPD, almost like an obsession versus transference.
All of this I think is more of a reason to wonder. Besides, I don't think hanging on to the necklace is an "ahhh, see that is obsessive behavior", and that means you have personality disorder. It means he gave you a necklace during a breakup and you just could not think about what to do with it at that moment.
I think she, your t, should keep this situation with boyfriend out of dxing sessions. It seems so unproductive.
And for why, what is the reason to have you two argue about it. Is that really necessary?
Seems to me it is taking away from the real therapy. Right now, it is getting over a bad break from someone you loved. period.
I am sorry yellowbird. I think your therapist is not really dealing with the what's that happened but something else.
take care, it is good to hear how you are doing things for yourself.
rsk
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 7:12:48
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by seldomseen on February 17, 2009, at 18:35:36
> Actually, the way you are handling all this IMO is amazing.
I could not agree more.
(((((Yellowbird)))))
You are a good role model for me.
- Scott
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 18, 2009, at 7:45:44
In reply to Re: Update » SLS, posted by yellowbird01 on February 17, 2009, at 17:47:35
Yellowbird,
I'm sorry you're going through this difficult time and I think it was courageous of you to reach out for support here. The simple fact is that this IS something very painful and difficult. It will involve adjusting your life - almost every aspect of it - to living without him. Grief and adjustment take time and are hard for even the most healthiest of people.
I have to say I feel a tad angry that your T has jumped on your reactions as an opportunity to point out your pathology. Nothing of what you have written, in my opinion, pertains to BPD. Breakups are universally painful but for people who meet the criteria for BPD this will be all the more difficult - I think whatever criteria you meet and by any standards you are coping admirably. Don't deny your feelings - you need to live them and get as much support as possible. I would like to ask your T what she exactly would do if she were in your situation? In her perception, where does the normal response meet the abnormal? I would also ask her how she sees you - does she see you first and foremost as a person, as Yellowbird, or does she find it safer to see you as a label? If the later is the case, then it might have something to do with her own issues.
I read an article on this the other day - if I get a chance I'll see if I can find an on-line version - it might be helpful.
Take care ((((Yellowbird)))
Witti
Posted by yellowbird01 on February 18, 2009, at 19:54:21
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by wittgensteinz on February 18, 2009, at 7:45:44
Thanks you all for your thoughts... I sent my T a fairly long email last night explaining where I am and why yesterdays session hurt. She probably wont respond and that's fine... at least I know I expressed myself and I believe did so pretty clearly.
I've done so well for a few days but now tonight is HARD. I've cried a few times. It's him, my ex- of all the people in the world, HE... he doesnt want me anymore.. not even as a friend. He can say goodbye and not hurt because he has lost me. (Yes, he hurts, but its mostly about something else, not about having lost me). The man that.... well, fill in all the memories here. No need typing them all out. But I can picture them, I can remember in my head and in my heart how I felt in those moments... and it meant so little to him that he was willing to walk away. That hurts so, so bad. I'm so tempted to pick up the phone and call him.. but i wont because I'd regret it. I lost him. He's gone. He doesnt want to be my friend anymore. He did.not.love.me. Period. How will I ever get over that loss? It's (his name).... He was supposed to come to the lake with everyone next weekend (a mutual friend owns a lakehouse a few hours away and a group of us goes a few times per year). I dont know I'll go now or not but he's not coming. He ALWAYS comes... it's all of us couples. He isnt coming. He's gone from my life and he's choosing that. It's what he wants. I just wasnt that important.
Sorry, wild meaningless rambling done for now. Ouchie. Ow ow ow.
Posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 21:27:51
In reply to Re: Update, posted by yellowbird01 on February 18, 2009, at 19:54:21
Hi Yellowbird.
> I've done so well for a few days but now tonight is HARD. I've cried a few times. It's him, my ex- of all the people in the world, HE... he doesnt want me anymore.. not even as a friend. He can say goodbye and not hurt because he has lost me. (Yes, he hurts, but its mostly about something else, not about having lost me). The man that.... well, fill in all the memories here. No need typing them all out. But I can picture them, I can remember in my head and in my heart how I felt in those moments... and it meant so little to him that he was willing to walk away. That hurts so, so bad. I'm so tempted to pick up the phone and call him.. but i wont because I'd regret it. I lost him. He's gone. He doesnt want to be my friend anymore. He did.not.love.me. Period. How will I ever get over that loss? It's (his name).... He was supposed to come to the lake with everyone next weekend (a mutual friend owns a lakehouse a few hours away and a group of us goes a few times per year). I dont know I'll go now or not but he's not coming. He ALWAYS comes... it's all of us couples. He isnt coming. He's gone from my life and he's choosing that. It's what he wants. I just wasnt that important.
>
> Sorry, wild meaningless rambling done for now. Ouchie. Ow ow ow.
He might be doing you a big favor by no longer wanting to be your friend, and I know that you know why. However, his actions are being interpreted by you as a complete and total rejection of you as a person. I can understand that. Just remember that he had found you worthwhile for quite a long time, and at any point in your relationship, he could have put together quite a long list of things that he liked about you.This guy is a real mess. Let him go.
He is only one individual in a world of billions, the majority of which would enjoy your company. I must disagree with your characterization of this event in your life as being, "I lost him". You didn't do anything that produced this result, even though you might want to isolate a cause and effect. Some people are just not meant to be together. Only you can know if he has lost you. I think the favor he has done for you is to reinforce in your mind that it is time to move forward without him. He has indeed lost you.
I don't believe in being vindictive and wishing a person bad simply because they have rejected me. I don't set out to devalue or hate someone who has hurt me in such a way. I don't need to substitute hate for hurt. I feel stronger in acknowledging that such things are the ways of human relationships, and that people have seasons. The two of you were probably right for each other for the time you spent together for many different reasons, both healthy and unhealthy. Of course you are going to have good memories. I like to embrace the joys I experienced with people whom I am no longer with, regardless of who hurt who. Cherish the good memories. They are yours to keep forever.
I'll stop here, although I feel I could go on babbling. I don't know why I feel like writing so much when addressing the difficult time you are now having. I guess it resonates quite a bit with my own experiences of loves had and loves lost.
I guess I won't stop here.
I know this is a bad day for you. I don't write this stuff to try to make you feel better, although I hope it does. It is more of an attempt to try on different perspectives to see if any of them fit you.
As you so concisely explained, he doesn't want you, so you have no choice but to...
I would throw the word "better" in there somewhere. You have no *better* choice but to... You have to fill in the rest of the sentence.
You can choose to hope for reunion and remain in place or you can choose to move forward and participate with the world again. Which is the better choice for you? Make one decision at a time as if you were travelling a path with forks in the road. If at each fork, you choose the path you know is right for you, you might very well end up happy and fulfilled. I hope so. You might not know right away which direction to travel in, but you can always choose a brand new path if the one you are on is bringing you to places you do not wish to be.
I find your "babbling" in this post to be healthy regardless of how much hurt may be inspiring it. You are not weaker today for not being as strong as yesterday. That's a bit of a paradox to play with. What you did here is something similar to what I did when I was having problems dealing with my divorce. I wrote page after page after page of babbling and catharsis. It was not meant to be read by anyone, even though some of it I wrote as if it were addressed to my ex-wife. Some people call this journalling. Mine was not so formal. I found it very therapeutic, though. It helped me untangle thoughts and feelings. You can write a letter to your ex-, but don't send it.
Enough.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on February 19, 2009, at 20:13:01
In reply to Re: Update » yellowbird01, posted by SLS on February 18, 2009, at 21:27:51
Scott a lovely post to yellowbird. And so true. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
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