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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
I spent my 20s in psychodynamic therapy utilizing some psychoanalysis for about 9 years with the same therapist. However, my therapist moved to a state in a different time zone. Before he moved he said that we could continue therapy using a webcam and a program called net meeting. Prior to his moving, I was in undergraduate school about two hours away from him.At times I would drive the full two hours to see him. When I left for graduate school we continued the webcam. He gave me a years notice that he was retiring and moving. He said we could keep utilizing the webcam for sessions.
About a month before he moved, he decided not to continue treatment using the webcam. I was quite angry because I purposely went to a grad school that was nearby his office.
Moreover, I bonded with this therapist and it was a major blow that he went back on what he said.
Currently, we talk on the phone for about an hour and a half each month. In addition, we also exchange emails about politics they can turn into topics about my mood, my missing him, him telling me he would see me in the spring when he comes back to the east coast. The latest is that he plans to move back to New York in a year or so. I am sooo tempted to move back to the city he lived in just so we could continue therapy. That makes me feel totally pathetic.
Nevertheless, I still feel like a patient. I know he didnt want me to feel abandoned but its kind of sick that I still love this guy like a parent. I miss him tremendously and it is confusing for me to place a label on our roles. He is no longer my psychologist and I am no longer his patient. I know labels are unnecessary but I find, as in therapy, he had the "power." I mean all patient doc relationships are based on the doctor patient role.Thankfully, I have great insurance where I can see anyone in network for unlimited visits with a $10 copay. I raise this issue because my therapist recently sent me a bill from 2005 for phone calls. I have paid for phone calls in the past. I am questioning why he raises the topic again? Could he be confused about boundaries and thus sent the bill to remind him or remind me that he is the doctor and this is strictly a professional relationship which is hypocritical because the mentioning of a bill from 2005 after he told me he understands that I view him as a mentor. When he last came to the area I live in we made plans to see one another.
Frankly, I see him as a parent. My father died while I was under the psychologists care. About 12 hours before my dad died, I said, "I hate you and hope you die." So I have been unable to bond to anyone new since my T left. I asked him what he thought about me seeing a new therapist and he was all for it. Then he said intense psychodynamic therapy probably won't work for me because I did the majority of the work with him.
I am really confused about his mixed messages. If anyone can shed some light on this log post (sorry), I would appreciate it.
Posted by Sharon7 on February 10, 2009, at 19:47:29
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
Hi there. I'm sorry you are missing your therapist and are having trouble coming to terms with the change in your relationship. I have kind of wondered, too, what happens to those feelings we have for our therapist, especially if they'd been playing the role of parent. I guess this does kind of concern me because my t is like a mother-figure to me.
Sorry I don't have any advice for you, but I did want to say "WOW!" That's IS good insurance. Dang. Unlimited visits? I get 30 per year (I go more than that. I just self pay once I've used whatever insurance covers.) Oh, and they don't even pay for any of the 30 visits until my deductible is met, then they'll pay 80%. Of course by the time I reach my deductible, I'm out of my 30 visitis!
I would definitely look for a new therapist. I know it will be hard to trust someone new, but I hope you'll be open to it. I'm really sorry about your father and for the regrets you have.
I wish you the best. Be kind to yourself. (o:
Sharon
Posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 20:45:33
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Sharon7 on February 10, 2009, at 19:47:29
Hi Sharon,
Thank you for replying to my post. Yes, I do have great insurance (Blue Cross Blue Shield) but that can work against me at times.
I have seen a few new therapists but none do psychodynamic therapy despite me living in a very large city.
When potential therapists ask about my insurance they say get all happy and welcoming. The insurance seriously makes me question if they want to see me or if they want the unlimited insurance benefits.
It is just something I am aware of. I see you mentioned 30 visits per year for yourself. Years ago in therapy I did with my T I was seeing him 3 hours a week. It got to be too much. I realized a year ago that I lived my 20s in a therapists office. Not in any relationships with anyone make. It was as if he fulfilled that "male" figure in my life. At times he was a mother, a sister, a brother, a bf (no I wasnt attracted to him). I am just questioning if the fact that he is retired and is still in contact with me. This leaves me feeling "stuck" in my life.
Thank you again Sharon.
Posted by Sharon7 on February 10, 2009, at 21:37:41
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 20:45:33
I know there's more to it, but on the surface, it sounds like what I would consider a dream come true! I mean, the idea that my therapist would still be contact with me after she retires. (o: Could you explain what the mixed signals are? It sounded to me like your analyst retired, you still love him as a parent, he still talks to you monthly and sends email. I'm not sure where the mixed signal part comes in. As far as him not being your analyst anymore and still being in contact. Do you think you would be feeling better if you had no contact? Maybe he's just really being considerate of your feelings as you worked together for so long.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 1:13:12
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Sharon7 on February 10, 2009, at 21:37:41
doing therapy with me. An example of this is him telling me we are relationship was mentor/mentee one week then the next week he sends a bill from 2005. I find the timing of the bill to be noteworthy. Prior to the bill I sent him an email because he was supposed to call me that day. I sent him an email saying, I figure you got busy and didnt have the time. He replied in an email that it was none of my business about where he comes and goes.
I simply said I assumed you got busy because he was supposed to call. This is just an example of the relationship patients are doctors have. The T has more control because he/she knows your weaknesses. Another example of his mixed messages is the fact that he still talks to me as if I was a child. If he doesnt like an email, he wont reply for weeks. That said, I find him to be punitive while at the same times he says, dont censor your thoughts.
I know I am very lucky for him to still speak to me 4 years after he retired and moved. In some ways I think it would have been easier if he had made a clean cut. I feel is if I am constantly stuck in the grey area of the relationship.
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 11, 2009, at 3:49:47
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
Hi Freudiannic,
I also see a retired analyst (he's retired from academic work but continues to see a small number of patients) - although for me it's clear I am a patient and there are boundaries. Each month I get a bill which I must pay within the month.
You write of a bill from 2005 - did your T send it to you to ask you to pay or was it simply a reminder that you had paid him at that point? Do you still pay to have the phone sessions with your T or is it simply 'informal' contact? I can see why the boundaries are confusing, especially after having seen him in a strictly therapeutic context for so long.
You say you see him as a father - this in itself doesn't seem 'wrong' or worrying - many people have parental transferences in therapy. I suppose, what is important is the question: Does he treat you like his daughter? How does he respond to your fatherly transference?
If he continues to have contact with you, e-mails and phone calls, and there is no arrangement of payment, it could be good to ask him what he gets from the relationship with you? Could it be that over the long years of therapy together that a friendship has formed and you are now keeping in touch as friends? I find 'Mentor/Mentee' quite a vague description of roles and can see why it leaves you feeling uncertain. How do you perceive the relationship with him? Is he still your therapist or do you also listen to his concerns/worries and help him? My feeling is that patients can keep in touch with their therapists after 'termination', perhaps to give updates, but the roles of patient and therapist always remain and the T remains responsible for keeping boundaries.
My thought from reading your posts is that you are still living in the world of therapy and not so much in the real world - specifically you are considering moving so as to be closer to your T - is there no way your T could help you become more independent or that you might see a new T who could help you process this complex relationship with your previous T? Just because you have done many years of psychodynamic work doesn't mean this would not be suitable with a new T.
I hope you can find your way through all of this.
Witti
Posted by Sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 6:20:50
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 1:13:12
Oh, okay. I get it now, Freudiannic. I can certainly see what you mean about the mixed messages. (Sorry you had to break it down so much for me.) *blush* I can be a little slow on the uptake at time. lol!
I agree with everything Witti said. It does sound like the relationship needs some clarification.
This has got to be difficult for you emotionally, and I'm sorry. I would take advantage of that awesome insurance you have and find a good therapist to work through this with. I am new to therapy and have never had to like switch doctors, but I can only imagine that it would be tough to start over with someone else, but I really think it would help you to talk to another therapist about this. And who knows? Maybe you'll find a new T that you really like.
I wish you well with this. Keep us posted! Have a good day.
Sharon (o:
Posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 9:54:02
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
Hi Freudiannic,Welcome to Babble. I second Witti's and Sharon's posts and think they have offered good things for you to think about.
I certainly can see why you feel stuck in the gray area. Your T's behavior is very puzzling to me too. But beyond that, there are two things that personally I don't find very OK. The first is that he would send you a bill from 2005 - unless I misunderstood and that was in 2005? Reason being that insurance companies typically won't honor old bills beyond a certain time, usually only a few months after the calendar year in which they are incurred. If yours is one of the few plans that would do that, and your T is aware of it, then hmmm. If not, then you would be responsible out of pocket, which would hardly be fair if your insurance would have picked it up had the bills been submitted in a timely fashion. This all sounds so weird to me that I must have the wrong end of the stick, at least I hope so!
The second thing is that he would schedule some communication at a certain time, miss it, and then snap at you that it is none of your business why he missed it. IMO this really is not OK (as we say to our young children), not professionally, not personally. I would be very pissed at a friend, colleague, professional, or anyone who did that to me, and want an explanation if not an apology.
I hope that your attachment is not such that it skews the power in the relationship far too much. You have every right to say something about both of these and to expect him to meet you at the negotiating table with grace and humility.
So I guess my concern is whether your T indeed has retained all the power in this relationship, yet eschews the responsibilities that go with such power. I am also curious - has he always been like this or is this new behavior?
I can see that this relationship means a great deal to you. Clearly he has played an important healing role in your life. The issue of its continuance is complex and requires good communication between the two of you. If that communication and negotiation is handled successfully, this could provide an enormously beneficial growth experience for you. It seems that what you are really missing from all this is resolution and closure. He has been a good parent, but the balance of power should be shifting somewhat in your favor after all this time or you will never feel able to leave the nest.
Take care,
Lucie
Posted by Dinah on February 11, 2009, at 12:01:34
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
I'm with Lucie. What you described isn't good therapy behavior, good mentor behavior, or even good friend behavior.
Have you talked to him about whether he is comfortable with the current arrangement? Would it be better for the relationship if you clarified it by paying him for his time? We always complain about having to pay for their caring, and of course we don't and can't pay for their caring. But we can and do pay for their setting aside time for us.
Is his health ok? Health can affect relationships in a lot of ways. Actual physical and mental changes, fear and resentment towards health concerns, or concern over what will happen to those who depend on him if something happens to him, could all lead to some bad humor.
Everyone has moods of course. And we forgive the occasional mood from friends. But if this is a pattern, it might be a sign that something else is going on.
Believe me. I totally understand. My therapist moved three hours away and I preferred driving to see him than seeing anyone else. (Fortunately he moved mostly back.) He also played a huge role in our decision not to move our family a few years ago. Someone of my acquaintance moved to a new city when her therapist did. It's not at all odd to me that the attachment be this strong. And I'm not at all disapproving.
I'm more concerned. Not that you need to move on, but that your relationship may be in some difficulty now.
Open, calm, reasonable discussions aren't easy. But sometimes they are the only chance for change and improvement.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 12:14:51
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Dinah on February 11, 2009, at 12:01:34
The bill is for phone calls between the T and me while I was under his treatment. The reason I don't want to pay this bill is because he told me to just forget about it in 2007. The bill is under $1000 so it would be easy to pay.
Someone asked me if he had documentation of the bill. When he left the east coat, he moved to an area that was badly hit by Katrina. Thus, he lost all records.
Yes, I do see what you all mean--there needs to be clear cut boundaries. I find it to be rather ballsy to tell me verbally and in an email (I saved it) to just forget the bill.
What I am wondering is why bring up the bill now, four years later. Additionally, he hasnt replied to my email when I contacted him about this bill. I think when the bill was previously broken down, I was paying $2 per minute for phone calls (while I was in therapy) I have paid him a total of over $25,000 just for phone calls. Moreover, he did the talking on the majority of the calls.
Posted by wittgensteinz on February 11, 2009, at 14:59:12
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 12:14:51
This sounds like an enormous amount - were these costs covered by your insurance? You say he did the majority of the talking in these calls - were they still therapeutic in their nature?
Witti
Posted by Sigismund on February 11, 2009, at 15:35:51
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
>I asked him what he thought about me seeing a new therapist and he was all for it. Then he said intense psychodynamic therapy probably won't work for me because I did the majority of the work with him.
That's an interesting thought I have wondered about myself.
(Maybe I would not be able to recreate the psychodynamic experience I had with my T because I am so different now to then?)
Posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 16:43:28
In reply to Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 10, 2009, at 18:06:13
I hate to raise this, Freudiannic, but could your T be having memory problems?
I once had a mentor that I loved like a father, and we had a very strong bond. I was the last of his students and he was winding up his long career (he was in his early 70s). He gave me a favorite book of his, and then a couple of months later asked me if he had loaned it to me because he wanted to give it to someone. He had completely forgotten that he had given it to me. I didn't really mind about the book, but that incident forced me to acknowledge his advancing age and declining memory.
Could your T have forgotten (1) that he had told you not to worry about the 2005 bills, and (2) that he had arranged to webcam you at that particular time? People who have forgotten things, particularly if they are in denial or defensive about their memories or even in early stages of dementia (my father had Alzheimer's so I know about that), can get very testy if they are called on their apparent memory lapses.
I don't want to arouse your anxieties unnecessarily, but feel that you really need to consider that possibility. That's why I had asked if this was new behavior or whether he had always been like this.
Posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 16:49:06
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 12:14:51
> Yes, I do see what you all mean--there needs to be clear cut boundaries. I find it to be rather ballsy to tell me verbally and in an email (I saved it) to just forget the bill.
Needless to say, if he told you to forget the bill and you have written proof of that, then you do not owe the bill. Period. But it sounds like you have already come to that conclusion yourself.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 17:16:22
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by wittgensteinz on February 11, 2009, at 14:59:12
> This sounds like an enormous amount - were these costs covered by your insurance? You say he did the majority of the talking in these calls - were they still therapeutic in their nature?
>
> Witti
>
>Yes, it was an enormous amount. Yes, he talked at me not to me if you know what I mean. No, my insurance did not cover these calls. I was with two insurance companies during my treatment with him and neither insurance carrier would cover phone calls.
Some of the calls were therapeutic that I paid for so I understand him wanting to get paid. As I said before I paid him almost well over $30,000 in the eight to n9ne years I saw him. I mean I was seeing him 3 to 4 hours a week so he was definitely being well compensated from my insurance carrier.
Nonetheless, I never knew when he was billing me or not. He was not consistent with even co-pays no less a bill for phone calls. I was charged $2 per voicemail I left. No joke. It really makes me feel used and pathetic.
Here is a snippet from his bill email to me:
Your question, are you out of town or just busy? is tantamount to asking me to explain myself, a line of questioning I find inappropriate. I understand you would like me to call you. I will call you. I will try to call you within the next couple of weeks. Let me ask you something--its been a long time since I heard anything about the balance you owed me. Are you aware that I have never heard about this from you without it being in response to my asking about it? We can talk about this when I call you. I will try to call you this Friday or the following Friday.
Best wishes.
My reply:I am still baffled why you chose to bring up the bill knowing it would cause me to react and then say that you would speak to me about this Friday or next Friday. Your email reply about, Your question, are you out of town or just busy? is tantamount to asking me to explain myself, a line of questioning I find inappropriate. I understand you would like me to call you. I will call you. I will try to call you within the next couple of weeks was taken totally out of context.
The reason I said maybe you are busy or out of town was not asked to explain yourself. Rather, before you went to Mexico I had (removed for privacy) questions. You told me you would call when you got back. I said maybe you are busy or out of town bc I was NOT taking the lack of a phone call personally. I assumed you had other things to do like work or be out of town than to call me. How could you not get that?
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 17:20:56
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Sigismund on February 11, 2009, at 15:35:51
> >I asked him what he thought about me seeing a new therapist and he was all for it. Then he said intense psychodynamic therapy probably won't work for me because I did the majority of the work with him.
>
> That's an interesting thought I have wondered about myself.
>
> (Maybe I would not be able to recreate the psychodynamic experience I had with my T because I am so different now to then?)Hi Sigismund,
Yes, he surely could have meant that I would not be able to recapture the intimacy that involved so many years of psychodynamic treatment.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 17:28:22
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 16:43:28
Posted by Sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 19:32:26
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 17:16:22
Hey, Freudiannic. You know, I may be way out of line and please forgive me if I say the wrong thing (I worry about that,) but that snippet you shared from the email your therapist I thought sounded very rude! You responded strongly, but in my opinion, you were well justified. I don't know, Freudiannic. I guess it kind of bothers me that he (at least in that email) seemed to have such little regard for your feelings, as you pointed out in your reply, so basically I'm agreeing with you, so maybe I'm not too out of line.
I know I could have just kept my mouth shut, but I really wanted to express my opionion. I know this is someone you have a strong bond with and consider a parental figure, and do I ever know how strong of a bond that can be, so I would never want to say anything to make you think I'm 'dissing' him. Well, hopefully when we (babbling folk) put stuff out there for public consumption, we are wanting to hear what other people think, perhaps even if it's not what we want to hear. Know what I mean?
Anyhow, I just did not appreciate him taking that tone with you in the email, especially after the long relationship you've had and how handsomely (in my opinion) he's been compensated. And didn't you also say he has not responded to your response about the bill?
Well, you know I wish you the best. I really hope you find a new therapist. I think you'd feel a whole lot better to get this off your chest and hopefully get some closure. It may very well be you have benefited all you are going to at this point working with your former T. I'm glad he was helpful to you (I am assuming that's the case because you stayed with him for so long,) and for you to have bonded with him to the point of thinking of him as a parent, I know he had to have been treating you a heck of a lot better during your analysis than he did with that email. The 'Best wishes' also seems kinda formal, but I've never gotten any type of mail from mine, so she may very well say the same thing. But our relationship is fairly new in comparision to yours.
Well, I'm going to shut up now. Stay in touch, will you? I'd really like to hear how this all unfolds. Take care! I'll do you like I do my therapist: are you mad at me?!?! lol!
Sharon
Posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 19:38:26
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 17:16:22
I'm a little confused. Have you sent him a copy of his own email telling you that you didn't owe him anything in 2005?
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 19:43:27
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by lucie lu on February 11, 2009, at 19:38:26
yes, I told him I have the emails where he said forget the bill. It is on a laptop with a broken mother board but i think i saved it to a thumb drive.
I think I will wait until Friday to see if he calls so we can discuss the bill and the timing. If he denies saying it, I will then forward him the emails.
Posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 19:52:50
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Sharon7 on February 11, 2009, at 19:32:26
Hi Sharon,
I totally appreciate your candor. No, you arent out of line at all. I agree that I replied strongly to his email. However, the email he replied to was an email about persona; things. Why he chose that email to reply to instead of simply creating a new email has left me feeling invalidated.
Yes, he email relies fluctuate between normal signatures i.e., take care to really cold one such as I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors. LOL I think I got that closing signature from a graduate school I didnt get into.
After reading everyones replies, I have decided to see a new therapist. I am thinking of seeing a woman. I dont know if gender makes a difference in therapy but Im willing to give it a try.
Thanks Sharon for sharing what you felt about him. It makes me see him in a whole new light.
Posted by sharon7 on February 12, 2009, at 16:42:45
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact., posted by Freudiannic on February 11, 2009, at 19:52:50
Thanks for saying what I had to say was okay. I'm very new here and I really do worry about saying the wrong things sometimes. *blush*
I'm glad to hear you are going to see a different therapist.
Keep us posted, will you? (o: I'm so glad you decided to post.
Sharon
Posted by fox+grapes on February 16, 2009, at 13:37:20
In reply to Re: Therapist retired but we still are in contact. » Freudiannic, posted by Sharon7 on February 10, 2009, at 21:37:41
I find this discussion very interesting. I was googling about "therapist retiring" and this discussion came up. So I registered and I'm new to this board but would like to pursue a slight variant of this posting. My therapist is retiring in a few months and I'm beginning to feel very anxious about it. We've been working together for six years in two hour sessions, four times a week. Plus I do not have close contacts in this city (my sister left for another job shortly after I arrived following a psychiatric hospitalization.) I came to this city specifically for the treatment and have begun to make a few acquaintances. Has anyone experienced how to deal with the loss of such an intense relationship and start over? Do you have to start at the beginning? I'm DID and even after six years some parts are still having trouble warming up to this very experienced and professional psychiatrist. Most of the parts are on board and some integration is finally taking place. I hate the thought of starting over and don't even know where I will live. Wherever I can find a good therapist I guess. My doc and I have already discussed remaining in contact and he has assured me that we will be in touch occasionally. Help! What can I expect? I feel a serious loss coming on (after many others) and abandonment issues are rising.
This is the end of the thread.
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