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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
Discussion and planning only go so far. When you are faced with actually doing something you are afraid of, it feels totally different. And there are things you just don't anticipate and can't control.
I thought I was ready for a sex life. Being in a new relationship is good and fun and I've been trying to accept that this part will be hard for me but that it will be OK. We've talked and talked and talked about this in therapy. My therapist didn't think I was really ready but I was insisting that there could be no more holding out, no more plausible excuses. He said that part of a relationship was accepting what the other person brought to it and what they needed. And I need to go slow. I agree but I have gone slow. It would be easier if I could just tell Mr. X what happened to me and why sex is so hard. But I'm not ready to bring that into this relationship - I don't know if I'll ever be ready.
So this was a significant weekend - I was spending three days straight with Mr. X, at his house. I was doing OK with most of it - but then I was thrown a curve ball. Something triggering and something we hadn't talked about in therapy. I was upset but felt so foolish - I'm not exactly 16 anymore. So I handled it the way I always have, I dissociated through most of it and then took control of the situation - which means I worked hard to please Mr. X sexually, it was no longer a mutual thing. This is my way of keeping myself safe - by keeping the other person happy and distracted.
It was hard to talk about this in therapy today. We spent the first ten minutes just talking about the less personal parts of my trip and then my therapist said very softly, "Are you OK?" I can't convey it here but that one question was loaded with so much concern and so much understanding of why I might not be...I was really touched. He clearly had been worrying about me.
So we talked about it all in great detail and he validated all my feelings. He said it wasn't stupid, that even long-term couples have difficulty with certain aspects of sex. And he asked me to not be so hard on myself because protective patterns are hard to break. He wished for me that I could say, "no, I don't like that" but he knows that is still something we need to work on.
I'm so sad and I'm so angry. I feel broken and like something has been taken that I can never get back. I just want to be normal and be able to enjoy what most adults enjoy - physically being close to another. Is that really so much to ask? How long do I have to keep paying for something that can't be changed? I thought I could power through it.
At the end of my session I was just sitting with tears running down my face. My therapist asked me if I wanted to stay longer but I told him there wasn't ever going to be enough time to make this better. And then - silly me - I apologized for sharing so many details and for being so graphic. I suddenly felt embarrassed - like TMI - and I didn't know how to take it all back. He said I did exactly what I should have done with my time today- that it helps him to know what happened and how I feel about all of it. He was really quiet though, like he didn't know what to say or do. I guess that makes two of us.
I really hate this.
Posted by seldomseen on November 4, 2008, at 5:47:56
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
> Discussion and planning only go so far. When you are faced with actually doing something you are afraid of, it feels totally different. And there are things you just don't anticipate and can't control.
****I hear you. I wish that I could make my therapist invisible and take him with me wherever I go - or at least have an emergency button that would summon him on command. However, a big part of therapy is being able to translate it to the real world. That part sucks and is really really hard.
> I thought I was ready for a sex life. Being in a new relationship is good and fun and I've been trying to accept that this part will be hard for me but that it will be OK. We've talked and talked and talked about this in therapy. My therapist didn't think I was really ready but I was insisting that there could be no more holding out, no more plausible excuses. He said that part of a relationship was accepting what the other person brought to it and what they needed. And I need to go slow. I agree but I have gone slow. It would be easier if I could just tell Mr. X what happened to me and why sex is so hard. But I'm not ready to bring that into this relationship - I don't know if I'll ever be ready.
***** This is also a real tough one - do you tell or not? And if so - when? I'm still struggling with this one. I know deep down that by not telling I'm not giving the other person even the chance to respond, which, in the end robs me of the understanding I deserve. I also know that what happened to me is something that I should not be ashamed of. I mean what if I had been injured and there certain things I just couldn't do? I would tell the other person that without reservation. So what gives with the CSA? I don't know, but it's different.
> So this was a significant weekend - I was spending three days straight with Mr. X, at his house. I was doing OK with most of it - but then I was thrown a curve ball. Something triggering and something we hadn't talked about in therapy. I was upset but felt so foolish - I'm not exactly 16 anymore. So I handled it the way I always have, I dissociated through most of it and then took control of the situation - which means I worked hard to please Mr. X sexually, it was no longer a mutual thing. This is my way of keeping myself safe - by keeping the other person happy and distracted.
**** I usually either drink my way through it, or dissociate like you. However (and I'm sorry if this is TMI) actually sleeping together (literally) in the same bed helps to foster closeness that makes it easier for me.
> It was hard to talk about this in therapy today. We spent the first ten minutes just talking about the less personal parts of my trip and then my therapist said very softly, "Are you OK?" I can't convey it here but that one question was loaded with so much concern and so much understanding of why I might not be...I was really touched. He clearly had been worrying about me.
>
> So we talked about it all in great detail and he validated all my feelings. He said it wasn't stupid, that even long-term couples have difficulty with certain aspects of sex. And he asked me to not be so hard on myself because protective patterns are hard to break. He wished for me that I could say, "no, I don't like that" but he knows that is still something we need to work on.
>
> I'm so sad and I'm so angry. I feel broken and like something has been taken that I can never get back. I just want to be normal and be able to enjoy what most adults enjoy - physically being close to another. Is that really so much to ask? How long do I have to keep paying for something that can't be changed? I thought I could power through it.**** Yeah, I'm not sure that is this something we can just power through. Your therapist is right, try not to be so hard on yourself. SOmetimes it takes trial and error to figure out what works for us.
> At the end of my session I was just sitting with tears running down my face. My therapist asked me if I wanted to stay longer but I told him there wasn't ever going to be enough time to make this better. And then - silly me - I apologized for sharing so many details and for being so graphic. I suddenly felt embarrassed - like TMI - and I didn't know how to take it all back. He said I did exactly what I should have done with my time today- that it helps him to know what happened and how I feel about all of it. He was really quiet though, like he didn't know what to say or do. I guess that makes two of us.
****You've got the best therapist in the world I think. Mine's good, but wow, yours should give seminars.
> I really hate this.
*** I know and I'm sorry. CSA is just the gift that keeps on giving isn't it? It's a struggle, but I will tell you that I have actually had sexual experiences that I have enjoyed. There have been moments when I got what all the fuss was about and maybe that's all anyone (CSA or not) ever gets - those moments.
Seldom
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2008, at 7:21:48
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
> I just want to be normal and be able to enjoy what most adults enjoy - physically being close to another.
First, I think you'd be surprised at what's in the wide range of what "most adults" enjoy. Sexuality is a very complex matter, and many people with no psychiatric history at all would fall at the edges of normal.
But also I'd agree with your therapist. There's no point in forcing yourself to do things because you think it is required of you. Without the proper preparation you're not likely to be desensitized and more likely to be retraumatized.
At the risk of TMI, I found the best thing for my sex life was to think about it in pieces. Admittedly I have no history of abuse. But it was not too long ago when I would have denied liking (or even not hating) *any* of it. I zoned out, I avoided, I hurt.
With my therapist's help, I was able to break sex into it's component parts and separate those things I actually kind of like, those things I don't mind doing, those things I'm not crazy about but am willing to do, and those things I really don't like to do and that really upset me. With my therapist's encouragement and obvious endorsement of the fact that the left side of the chart (what I sort of like and what I don't mind) was plenty enough to offer, I talked to my husband about it. I asked him if we could minimize those things I don't particularly like, try not to do the things that upset me, and that the end result would be that he would get sexual intimacy more often and I'd be more enthusiastic about it.
My husband was a wee bit reluctant at first, but agreed to give it a shot. It's worked out great! Since I don't worry about where our encounters are going, I don't avoid them and can enter into them with a greater enthusiasm. Which more than makes up for what we no longer do, or do less often.
There were also some minor procedural changes involved. For example, it makes a huge difference to me to feel some control. To, for example, make the initial overture. Or... Well, that probably is TMI.
This was a humongous issue for me. And I don't really think it is any more. This might not be my husband's dream sex life. But I doubt many men end up with their dream sex life. Apart from all else, life intrudes.
I guess my point is that it's not altogether bad to give up the ideas of what you should like or what you think your partner is entitled to. This isn't a couple of animals rutting. It's a couple in a relationship who are expressing one of many many aspects of that relationship. It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that offering what you can freely and with love rather than fear is better for a relationship than doing what you feel is your duty.
Posted by Nadezda on November 4, 2008, at 8:51:57
In reply to Re: Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers » DAisym, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2008, at 7:21:48
I'd like to write something, but before I write I'd need to know: what's "TMI"? Sorry to have to ask,
Nadezda
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2008, at 8:54:37
In reply to Re: short definitional question, posted by Nadezda on November 4, 2008, at 8:51:57
too much information
Posted by antigua3 on November 4, 2008, at 11:47:08
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
Daisy, sex can be a difficult part of so many relationships, despite CSA.
I found myself in a situation w/my DH a couple of months ago and participated in something that I thought I was over, and would never do again. I gave in to my DH, and I can't tell you the shame I felt, that I had betrayed myself in the worst way, that I thought I was "over" doing something I didn't want to do but pleased my DH.
I talked it through w/my pdoc and t, and both said the same thing: don't be so hard on yourself. But I felt awful. I had said no several times and my DH wouldn't listen, and then the little girl part took over and I gave in to please him.
It took a lot of talking w/my husband to get over this, and I've set certain boundaries that I try to stick to, such as having more control over the situation. It has helped tremendously, but getting over the guilt at having betrayed my own thought about sex still haven't quite left me. I still tend to disassociate a lot, but if that's what I have to do, I'll do it.
But the intimacy is better now, and we've been married a very long time. I find more parts to enjoy now because I can say no, and I will put an end to it if I don't want to do something. It doesn't make my husband happy, but when it's good now, it can be almost great.
So please hang in there. I don't know if you should discuss this w/Mr. X or not; I'm not qualified to answer that. Maybe you need more time sorting it out. But if you don't, you'll be headed down a pattern that you will have to break later.
I don't know the answer. How close are you to him? How much do you care? I'm sorry I don't have much to offer, but sex/intimacy can be wonderful, it truly can, when both parties agree on the boundaries.
I'm sending you warm thoughts today, and please don't be so hard on yourself.
antigua
Posted by muffled on November 4, 2008, at 12:03:27
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
Wow Daisy.
Thank you for sharing this.
I'm sorry you had a rough time and are paying for it. For me it can take days to get over it, but then it DOES pass, all the craziness triggered in my head passes.
I'm sure glad you got a nice T.
I bet your T was quiet, cuz like you said, there are no words, just sadness.
I don't do 'it' cuz I just can't. I really liked Dinahs suggestions, though there is NOTHING on the list that I like. Though as she said, maybe its more <anticipation> of the terror, and if I didn't have that it would be OK....
Thats cool that seldom has done it OK.
I dunno why we even need to do the sex thing?
Maybe its sad we don't get to have whatever the heck it is thats is so 'special' about it, but then lotsa people have intimacy w/o sex, its real intimacy btwn friends and stuff. I don't got that either.
Gotta hide.
So I dunno what I trying to say exactly except that your post really touched me and got me thinking. And I have no answers for you. Just you sure not alone in how you feel bout this stuff.
I sure hope you can tell your man a wee bit bout the CSA stuff. I think its very important. It is NOT who you are, but it is a thing that has had a huge impact on your life and it will and already has impacted your relationship with him.
I mean, would you tell him about a physical thing? proly. Why does it have to be such a big deal if its a n emotional thing? Why does there have to be so much shame? I don't think Daisy is horrible or tainted or anything like that. Not at ALL. Daisy is who she is, and what I seen is she kind and caring and wise. Ya, and hurt too, but working HARD to get past the hurt and live as fully as she can. I see Daisy as a person who got guts, who keeps going even when if so so hard. Ya, Daisy was SA, but it was a hurt thing, Daisy didn't do that to another innocent, SHE was the innocent victim. So Daisy is NOT bad. Not gross. Yes, perhaps damaged, but willing to work on that. She is beautiful if only she could see that.
She does not perpetuate evil, she trys to help and do good.
Guess I talking to self too I suppose.
Hard to hear, hard to listen.
But it truth.
For both of us.
I think we can live good lives, mebbe not what we might wish, but I reckon I will keep stumbling along as best I can till God takes me home.
I shut up now.
this proly stupid
but I care
I want it to be a nice thing
me
Posted by rskontos on November 4, 2008, at 12:16:19
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
DAisym,
You are right life shouldn't be so hard. And in no way did you make it hard. I am sorry for you that you got put in another situation where your only choice was to dissociate.
But you do have an amazing T. And it is totally amazing to me that you did tell him all you did. I would and still do find it hard to talk straight about what I feel and what I remember and what I don't want to remember.
Sex. It is hard to get comfortable with it. I believe in all the women I have known in my life only one I have known loved it more than her husband. I always thought wow.
For me, I have not ever known why I struggled with sex until recently. Until my t helped me realized the bad things I went through in my childhood were not normal and slowly my brain decided to let me in on the secrets hidden within. I knew I often dissociated for long periods of times and who knew what happened during that time. I know sometimes i submitted although I did not want to.
In my marriage I have done the same thing. It has been difficult. My h doesn't really understand. I try to explain but...
So I understand your reluctance to share with your new guy. i understand that it might be necessary at some point because submission can only hurt you further.
I wish I could wave a magic wand over all of us here that were hurt so.
It just isn't right.
I am just so sorry. I wish I could wipe the tears away as well the source of the pain.
I am glad you have such a great T.
I wish I had something helpful. But I don't.
Just know I care.
rsk
Posted by JayMac on November 4, 2008, at 12:50:49
In reply to Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 0:49:16
> Discussion and planning only go so far. When you are faced with actually doing something you are afraid of, it feels totally different. And there are things you just don't anticipate and can't control.
I completely agree!! Gosh.....I have plenty of those moments. And then I don't know what to do.
> I thought I was ready for a sex life. Being in a new relationship is good and fun and I've been trying to accept that this part will be hard for me but that it will be OK. We've talked and talked and talked about this in therapy. My therapist didn't think I was really ready but I was insisting that there could be no more holding out, no more plausible excuses. He said that part of a relationship was accepting what the other person brought to it and what they needed. And I need to go slow. I agree but I have gone slow. It would be easier if I could just tell Mr. X what happened to me and why sex is so hard. But I'm not ready to bring that into this relationship - I don't know if I'll ever be ready.
How does one know when one is ready? I find that to be an interesting concept. How would you know when YOU are ready?
> So I handled it the way I always have, I dissociated through most of it and then took control of the situation - which means I worked hard to please Mr. X sexually, it was no longer a mutual thing. This is my way of keeping myself safe - by keeping the other person happy and distracted.
I've done that before. When I didn't know how to "voice" my needs, I just ended up ignoring my needs and fulfilling all of his.
> "Are you OK?" I can't convey it here but that one question was loaded with so much concern and so much understanding of why I might not be...I was really touched. He clearly had been worrying about me.
That's great! =)
> He wished for me that I could say, "no, I don't like that" but he knows that is still something we need to work on.
It is hard work. With time and patience, I feel you will find yourself gradually expressing your needs and letting yourself be heard.
> I'm so sad and I'm so angry. I feel broken and like something has been taken that I can never get back. I just want to be normal and be able to enjoy what most adults enjoy - physically being close to another. Is that really so much to ask? How long do I have to keep paying for something that can't be changed? I thought I could power through it.
I wonder what it would feel like for you to let yourself feel sad and angry?
> He said I did exactly what I should have done with my time today- that it helps him to know what happened and how I feel about all of it.
During our last time together, she told me that everything I tell her helps her get to know and understand me better so she can help me.
Hugs to you! Take good care!!
Posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 23:52:37
In reply to Re: Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by seldomseen on November 4, 2008, at 5:47:56
Thanks for all the indepth replies. It seems that this topic is one that is difficult for everyone. It is nice to hear what has worked for people and that I'm not the only one struggling with it.
It triggers off so many questions beyond sex. Does telling someone else make it their problem, instead of yours? Do you inhibit their sexual pleasure? Are they (unconsciously) wondering why you "let" it happen? And don't most people believe that sex is such a base-need of humans that you should need it more than fear it?
I am trying to work through a number of things, including how awful I feel about myself around all of this. I will reply in greater detail to all soon. Until than, know how much you've all helped me.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on November 5, 2008, at 8:40:36
In reply to Re: Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 23:52:37
> And don't most people believe that sex is such a base-need of humans that you should need it more than fear it?
I can't say I talk about these things with everyone, but among my friends with no mental health issues it's still common for one spouse or the other to not really care for sex very much.
Which is not to say that doesn't cause problems for the other spouse (which is probably how I come to hear of it).
I don't think you can say "most" people in any meaningful sense when it comes to a particular relationship. It's something best worked out between an individual couple. The fit between the couple is far more important than some idea of what's normal and most sexual issues come from a mismatch between sexual drives rather than a deviation from "normal".
Yet another reason why open communication in a relationship is important. Or as I think I heard Dr. Drew or Adam say, if you can have sex with them, you ought to feel comfortable talking about sex with them. (Yes, I confess to being a huge Loveline fan.)
Posted by JoniS on November 9, 2008, at 15:10:24
In reply to Re: Life shouldn't be this hard - triggers, posted by DAisym on November 4, 2008, at 23:52:37
Daisy,
I was so touched by your post and by the responses. I appreciate you for sharing such deep, sensitive stuff. I dont have anything to add. I'm actually crying - a lot right now.
I wish you well with this and I hope you can work through the pain and where you said "...I am trying to work through a number of things, including how awful I feel about myself around all of this..." I hope you resolve the "awful" that you feel about yourself. You are such a beautiful person.
Take Care
Joni
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