![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
Well, it's 2:00 AM here. This is probably a weird thing to be doing, but I don't know what else to do right now... I realized that I do not have any friends I would consider close enough to call at 2:00 in the morning, which is very sad in and of itself.
The pregnancy was confirmed to have stopped developing so I have induced miscarriage (using medication from the doctor) in the hopes of passing everything at home like I did last time. It's like a mini-labor. The worst of the pain seems to have stopped around 12:30 and I actually fell asleep. I was woken up just now by some more cramps. I have not passed what I need to and really hope I do because I'm trying to avoid a DnC (surgery). I thought getting up and moving around might help things along... sounds like a post for my infertility forum.
But what is just CRAZY - and I feel super low right now as one can imagine - what is making me CRAZY is that all I have been thinking about through my mini labor pains is my T and how she is not here (and not checking messages until Tuesday) and how attached I am to her and how it just feels like a bad situation. I am running fantasy over fantasy in my head of how I will be "breaking it off" with her when I see her next. Should I write her a letter and make her read it? Should I just say it to her? Should I yell at her for having tricked me into thinking she cares about me and then walk out slamming the door (a behavior that would totally shock her, btw - I try to be the perfect client).
I know you will all say that of course I"m feeling this because she is not here for me right now - doesn't even know that this has happened, that my pregnancy was no longer viable.
But it's not just that. I do NOT want to be so attached to ANYONE. Ever again. I love my partner immensely but I don't feel this attached to her and never have. As a matter of fact, it feels more like the TWO different times in my life when I totally fell in love with a STRAIGHT woman and pined for years in one case and in the more tragic situation (where she actually dated me for awhile) at least a year and then found myself unable to bare the pain.
She has triggered all of that. But not just triggered it. Maybe she would say it's projection - but she had lead me to believe, if even for a matter of weeks, that I am lovable and that she loves me. (She has never said such a thing - I WISH - but just by her actions.) Now, when away from her, it's like I see the truth. I don't want her anymore. She's just doing her job and following some book scenario with me she recently learned in school and probably laughs about me and my "little crush" or something.
WHY would I need to experience this (mostly romantic I think) transference to get better in the rest of my life? How is it helping to re-live this kind of desperation? It's not like she will decide she feels the same. Quite the opposite - I will continue to sit in my feelings all by myself as I have before. And she will just look at me - not even understanding the burden it is to carry to be a lesbian.
I don't need that. I have a decent marriage and a great kid (my partner birthed). I never expected to feel this "in love" again. I have avoided all of that by choosing the life I have now.
I need her too much. I love her too much. I want her too much. I AM TOO MUCH. Here I am dealing with the severe pain - physically and emotionally - of a miscarriage and all I can think about is how she will leave me again. Not just like this trip - a year ago she left on MATERNITY leave for months. Yep - I had to watch her beautiful body grow a healthy baby and then she left to be with her family (of course). I fear she will do that again. She's an intern. She'll probably want to have a second sooner as opposed to later. She may even decide to do something else with her life and leave this practice. (I know she has an unrelated business on the side just from my own Google-sleuthing that she has never told me about.) Of course she tells me nothing about herself - so I can "project" whatever I need to onto her. Or, you can say she just doesn't SHARE herself with me.
And more than physically leaving - I just feel it's all going to leave me hurt in the end. Hurt or shamed or humiliated. Too exposed to survive it. What else could possibly happen?
I know I have crazy hormones happening (or un-happening) right now. But I'm in a bad, bad place.
If you have made it this far, I appreciate it. My partner can't even be with me right now because our daughter keeps waking up when I head to the bathroom or throw up so she has to be sleeping in her room. So I feel terribly alone.
Posted by llurpsienoodle on October 5, 2008, at 8:30:52
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
OMG,
I am very very touched that you could share with us. I cannot imagine the pain you are in. I'm sorry that you are being tormented in so many ways. Life is definitely NOT fair. I like to think of crises as opportunities, and maybe you can use this as motivation for getting back in touch with your partner and family.-Ll
Posted by Nadezda on October 5, 2008, at 11:24:28
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I really do understand where you're coming from, Finding. This sounds like the extreme reactions I had, at the beginning of my therapy, when my therapist went away and I felt abandoned, left behind, and unloved.
It sounds as though you have some deep fears of abandonment and must have experienced some loss that was really wrenching, when you were younger-- whether the absence of indifferent of a parent or some other loss. To cope with that, you need an experienced or very able T, and I hope your T has as the insight and consistency to help you heal the breach.
I'm sure she isn't laughing or taking your pain lightly. Your going through this loss is, I'm sure, intensifying your reaction and raising exaggerated and unrealistic fears. I had those , too, for a long time when my T was gone-- and it was a very annihilating and difficult thing to go through. Others would tell me that my T cared-- but the pain of being abandoned made it difficult to listen to what anyone said. Only when he returned and we were together could I begin to have any hope about the future.
I can assure you that your T does care. It takes time and work, though, to be able to hold into that, to carry it with you when she's not in the room. This kind of attachment is very painful right now-- but it--or something like this-- is what you'll need to overcome the losses that you've had, and develop an ability to hold people in your mind.
I know that right now you wish you'd never felt the attachment and love that you do-- but are there any ways in which you can be less blaming of yourself, and more accepting of your need to be close to someone like her and to feel loved and valued? Maybe just accepting your legitimate need for and deserving of her caring-- would give you a little relief now. Is there any way you could write letters which you show your T on her return, as a way of trying to envision being with her? And also as a way of beginning to work on these feelings with her? You mention that in your post-- and even if the letters are very angry, perhaps you can feel some greater connection.
I'm especially sorry about your miscarriage. Maybe the extremity of your reaction, and the anger at your T's unavailablity is due to the sadness of this loss and the preoccupation of your partner, too. When your T returns and you reconnect, things will be much better. Maybe you need to start being a less than ideal patient-- in order to bring some of this into the therapy. I hope that will be soon.
Nadezda
Posted by lemonaide on October 5, 2008, at 11:33:28
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
FindingMyDesire,
I am sorry you are in so much pain right now. You are right your hormones are going wacky, and that is enough for anyone to feel really bad.
But for you it seems to be also a trigger of abandonment by your T. I know that feel really bad too. And just because they are just our T's it doesn't mean that we don't want more. Why can't they just call to make sure we are okay, but instead we have to follow the rules for the relationship. A real friend wouldn't mind a 2am call to help a friend out.
What you are going through with your baby is huge, don't let anyone tell you different. It is going to hurt to see other people with babies, and it it is your T, I can see it being like a double whammy.
I personally don't know how you do it, it seems like so much to deal with on your own.Can you call one of your friends who you didn't want to call in the early morning, call them now? I am sure they would want to help you through this. I don't even know you but if I knew somebody was going through this, I would want to help even if just for some support and hugs. Even your OBgyn can be of some support too. You are doing the right thing by reaching out.
Be gentle with yourself, you are going through several of one of life's biggest challenges right now.
Posted by obsidian on October 5, 2008, at 12:15:56
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I am so sorry that you are hurting so badly right now. Everything you wrote feels to me like it's about loss...in different ways.
As for your T, it sounds incredibly painful, and I'm not sure what might be a "solution"-I put that in quotes because any which way you go it won't be "easy" for you.
I imagine you've really got to communicate these feelings you've had toward her, and hope that she can be with you and/or guide you through it.
Would it be possible to let her see some part of your post?
I hope the pain eases soon.
-sid
Posted by Phillipa on October 5, 2008, at 12:58:13
In reply to Re: Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG » FindingMyDesire, posted by obsidian on October 5, 2008, at 12:15:56
I hope the worst is over now and you feel a bit better physically have you talked with the doc who gave you the meds for inducing? Anyone with you? Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on October 5, 2008, at 14:04:49
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I'm so very sorry that you are having to endure all this right now.
I completely understand how you would feel alone. I know I would.
I'm glad you decided to post and let us know what is going on with you. I've found babble on many occasions to be a wonderful support network. Yeah, it is online and all. But most of us here on the psych board get IT you know?
The physical pain you are going through will pass - eventually even the memory of it will fade. It's just far too acute, though, when you are in the middle of it.
The emotional pain that you are in I also understand. I understand the anger at your T. To say that it sucks that she is physically gone right now when you need her the most is an understatement. You probably didn't realize it, but I just gave her a virtual whack.
The emotional space between us and our T's definately ebbs and flows and it hurts - a lot. It all seems very arbitrary sometimes. They're here, they're gone and right in the middle of it is the big fat therapeutic boundary. I don't know how any of us manage it actually.
But we do. I've been in therapy a long time and still feel little pangs of that ebb and flow myself, but I will definately disagree that the only place this can end up is with you getting hurt.
There are no guarentees of course, but if I can work out a stable relationship with my T anyone can. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of talking and talking and talking, but it's worth it.
Eventually, it becomes as though the emotional space between you is negligible. You don't merge into the same person obviously, but you do develop a very strong alliance.
She may be the one with whom this happens, she may not be. I don't know.
Again, I am very glad you posted. I'm sending you peace.
Seldom.
Posted by JayMac on October 5, 2008, at 16:29:40
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
FindingMyDesire, I don't have any huge words of wisdom for you, besides the fact that I think what you are experiencing with your is T is not uncommon. I've had some major transference with my T. The biggest thing that helped me was to talk with her about it and invite her into my inner world (which, often times, revolves around her).
I do have many, many hugs for you! (((((((FindingMyDesire)))))))
Love, JayMac
Posted by lucie lu on October 5, 2008, at 18:49:58
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
Finding My Desire,
I wish you were not so alone with this. There is something about losing a pregnancy that completely turns you inside out emotionally and physically in a way that few other things do. The physical pain is no joke, and the accompanying emotional pain only amplifies it. At a time like this, what you really crave is someone to completely enfold you and comfort you and make all the pain go away. It is natural that you would want your T and be hurting and angry that she is not here with you when you need her so much.
As for the question you asked, my advice would be that you go in and express to her all the feelings you have expressed here - maybe printing your post out, since it so clearly expresses your pain. It would probably be better for you to use words rather than gestures because the latter will leave you in a more uncomfortable emotional position. You may well regret expressing your anger that way, and that would just add to your pain and frustration. Simply tell your T how very, very, very angry and hurt you feel that you care so much for her and she's not there when you need her. You don't need to justify it. Your honesty makes a very powerful statement by itself. From what you've said, your T should be able to understand and empathize with the extreme pain you are in right now and hopefully be able to give you some of the comfort and support you need from her. And when the acute pain has passed, then she can work with you to understand and deal with those strong feelings. Llurpsie is right, your honesty has the effect of making other people want to reach out to you. I know I do, and your T must feel that way 1000-fold.
As you might have guessed, I lost a pregnancy and I remember how I felt. Even with people around, I felt alone in a very elemental and profound way. I have also felt what you describe about your feelings for your T. To deal with both of these things at the same time must be really, really hard. I'm sorry you are suffering, and that it is difficult to get the solace you need. At least you are not completely alone. Besides those of us who replied to your post, there must be many other readers out there who wish they could just send healing vibes your way and help you get through this.
((((((((((((((((Finding My Desire))))))))))))))
Love, Lucie
Posted by rskontos on October 5, 2008, at 19:52:44
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
Mydesire,
I think you are dealing with several issues on several levels and this miscarriage brought them all to the forefront. An attachment issue that you would like your T to fill, the worry over people leaving, the desire to not be vulnerable, and then the miscarriage itself. Each of these things alone is overwhelming. Add them together and you get well something that seems impossible. And I think that no matter who is with you right now you will feel alone. Some things you just have to go through alone. Grief is one of them. It helps to have people to express that grief with and to grieve with but it is by definition a lonely process.
And I am sure this is something that will forever change you. You are also anger at the loss of this child, and you wish your T could be the parent and fix it. She can't but it would be nice if she could make all the bad stuff go away.I am truly sorry you are hurting. Know this, we are here for you. Thanks for sharing. We are here while you grieve.
I do believe you should share how you feel, both the anger and the hurt. She should be able as a professional help you will all of it. Dont try to be the perfect client. I tried that too. I told my T I was trying that. It helped to share that. I don't think you are feeling it because she isn't there, it is I think because you want someone else to ease the hurt and that is ok. It is what we all would want.
Take care of yourself. Share your feelings however you can, and how you need to.
(((((((Findingmydesire))))))))
we are here for too.
rsk
Posted by turtle on October 5, 2008, at 21:27:24
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
FindingMyDesire,
I connect with what you are saying on so many levels. What you are going through is so profoundly painful and overwhelming. I am so very sorry to hear about your miscarriage and that you feel alone. Everything I want to say to you right now feels inadequate. All I can offer you is to let you know that you were heard and that I feel for you.
It is so very understandable that you feel crazy and that everything is out of control - in a very real way it is. The loss of a child never makes sense. Also, when you step back and look at the structure of therapy relationship (love and need within very firm bounds) it too can not make sense and seem designed to cause more pain.
I heard you when you said that your pain is more than that your therapist is not here for you in this moment. Having feelings for someone who is not available is almost too painful to bear. I too am a lesbian. You are right in that having feelings for a straight woman, or anyone else who fundamentally is not able to meet you equally in your attachment, feels very much like running into the boundaries of a therapy relationship. You took the risk to allow the attachment to form and now you feel burned by it. You wish that you could withdraw to protect yourself from further pain. You are also beginning to question why you feel this way with those who are unavailable and not with your partners. When the time comes, this is a valuable area to work through with your therapist. I too am beginning to look at this pattern in my life and trying to figure out why. I don't have the answers yet, but I wanted you to know that you are not alone in these struggles. I very much identify with all of this.
The more immediate need is the pain you are feeling right now, today. It's not crazy that you are thinking about your therapist at this time. Someone wise on this board introduced a concept that seems to apply here - AND. It's easy to spiral down and feel that since she isn't here for you now, none of the other things that you believed before are true. On closer look, you might find that you ran into the boundaries that are keeping her from being here for you now, AND she cares for you deeply. Nothing has happened to change her caring for you, in fact, as Lucie said your pain and honesty makes people feel even more like reaching out to you. You *are* loveable, you are deserving of comfort, you do deserve to have your needs met. I'd also like to echo what Nadezda said - don't hold yourself to being an ideal patient right now. Ask for what you need, express your anger and sorrow. Can you leave a message to ask for extra time when she gets back? You need the support and time to sort all of this through. If there ever was a reason to ask for more, this is it.
Be gentle with yourself and try not to close yourself off. I know that you feel some angst over the fantasy aspect of your feelings for your therapist and feel like pushing her away right now. You need her comfort. There is no right or wrong way of "holding onto" your therapist between sessions. Sometimes when I feel lost or anxious I pull up the covers in bed, close my eyes, and try to put myself back into the therapy chair. I look in her eyes and feel the warm welcoming smile. I try to remember different aspects of the relationship and allow whatever comes up. Eventually I realized that it really did feel like I was snuggling in with her and feeling comforted. It's OK. Allow yourself your needs right now, especially your need for comfort and love.
Turtle
Posted by sassyfrancesca on October 6, 2008, at 7:17:52
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I am so sorry you feel alone and have had a miscarriage (I had one also)....I wish there was something I could say to take away the pain.
Love, Sassy
Posted by Dinah on October 6, 2008, at 9:02:50
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I'm so sorry for your loss. There's enough grief involved even if you weren't in a hormonally altered state. Is there some way to combine caring for your daughter with having your partner there for support?
It sounds natural to be thinking and longing for your therapist when you're feeling in need of comfort, and to be angry that she's not there. It does seem like the times we need them and the times they're unavailable coincide more than coincidence could account for. But maybe wait until your hormones settle and your grief lifts before making any permanent decisions?
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 6, 2008, at 11:00:45
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I just don't know what to say. It's so strange to feel so comforted by strangers. You all have said such loving and supportive things! It has truly made it more difficult to close off from the world.
Yesterday I was home alone most of the day. We just didn't plan well for childcare and it was too much to have my daughter here... as wonderful and uplifting as she is... I checked for your posts throughout the day whenever I was really slipping and it really, really helped. It seemed like every time I check someone new had written something.
Eventually I picked up the phone and actually called a friend (which was so hard to do) and just started crying. She instantly said, "I'll be right there." She spent a few hours with me until I needed to sleep again. It was really helpful. I know I wouldn't have called her with all of your encouragement. Really.
I'm taking today off work. I hope to spend most of the time writing in my journal. I am still totally consumed with my T and the fact that she doesn't even know I'm going through this. I hope to sort through some of my feelings - many of you helped reflect back to me - and write something I can share with her on Thursday.
I really wish I could articulate how much I appreciate so many of you taking the time to write. Even saying that seems scary to me right now. But please know that I feel your support.
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 6, 2008, at 11:02:36
In reply to Re: Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 6, 2008, at 11:00:45
I meant to change the subject of my last post...
Posted by lemonaide on October 6, 2008, at 17:59:17
In reply to Re: Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 6, 2008, at 11:00:45
Finding my Desire,
I am so glad that Babble helped you through a tough part, and I just knew your friend would come through for you. You being able to find somebody to reach out when your T wasn't there show's how strong you can be.
I know we love our T's, but having a friend like yours is so much better. (((((GMD)))) I hope you are feeling better soon.
Posted by antigua3 on October 7, 2008, at 7:28:16
In reply to Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 5, 2008, at 4:24:17
I'm really sorry you are going through this. I know how difficult all of this can be, but the feelings that are being triggered may be painful but they are perfectly natural. You would be triggered to wanting your T so badly when you feel so alone.
Please take care of yourself and hug your daughter. And I'm glad you reached out to a friend.
antigua
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 7, 2008, at 22:57:26
In reply to Re: Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG » FindingMyDesire, posted by antigua3 on October 7, 2008, at 7:28:16
On Sunday I had left her a very, very brief message giving her a heads up that I had miscarried. I knew when she checked messages on Tuesday (today) that she would probably call. I was totally prepared not to answer because I was (am) still in such a hurt/angry/crazy state. I wanted to withhold - as if that hurts her more than it hurts me! haha
Last night I went a little out of my head. I never slept - not one wink. Everyone else seemed to be being kept up by me. My partner acted frustrated that I wouldn't take the lead with our kid (who was crying) and I just lost it. I mean in a terrible way. I threw some things (no one saw me) and stomped around yelling at my partner about how she just hasn't been there for me through this. Then I even yelled at my kid for crying. (I never do that!) It was so terrible. I just hated myself afterward. They were both crying. I don't think I've ever felt that gross about myself. I won't tell you what I thought about the rest of the night...
This morning I apologized and had a long talk with my daughter (who's 4 so you know...) but I think everyone is OK. My daughter told me it wasn't OK to yell and that my slamming things had scared her. Wow, she's so amazing... even though I know she should never have to say those words to a parent at least I know she isn't afraid to... right? Of course I told her she was right and that I would do my best not to do it again.
Anyway, when the phone rang today I knew it was my T and I picked up anyway despite my plan to erase all of my needs and never talk to her again... I guess my desperation won out in the moment. Of course just hearing her loving and supportive words had such a huge impact on me. It's just so baffling how that can be so! How have I instilled so much power in her that I think she can make or break me? That she actually could make or break me at this point!
She offered a session on the phone which I refused. I knew the physical separation would only make me shut down and feel more furious at her. But it meant so much to me that she offered. Then she tried to find a time between now and Thursday to see me. That didn't work out but again I appreciated it. I heard myself thank her one too many times and I think I said "sorry" several times to her - for what I don't know. It's like I instantly forgot just how mad and hurt I feel about her having been gone when I needed her most.
So, I think I have decided I will still share my writings with her. Several of you suggested I take a version of my previous post. I have that and more. I have journal entries from the whole time she was gone - from when I was feeling the love that led to the fantasies about her to an entry a couple of days ago where I'm enraged at her lack of care and trickery! She missed it all so I think she will have to catch up!
I'm *trying* to look at this from a curious standpoint. It's an opportunity for me to learn something about myself and my patterns, right? What happened for me to get to a place of self-hatred and rage because she was not here for me? What would she have suggested I do to stay connected to her? Why do I cut myself off when I most need to stay connected? (Why do I romantically attach myself to straight women?)
I've got a whole list of other questions for her. I hope to have the guts to stay with my plan and walk in there and show them to her. I don't think I have ever expressed anger directly about her. Of course it's anger about a lot of people. (I made a list of them too - past and present!) For one, my own mother (who I'm supposedly close to) hasn't even called to check on me since finding out Friday that I was going to have to induce miscarriage over the weekend. There is content for a whole session right there!
Again I want to thank everyone who posted back to me. This has kept me engaged so that I have not fallen totally into the rabbit hole. OK, maybe I did last night but first thing this morning another Babblemail came (this one from Lemonaide) checking in... you all are so great!
FMD
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 10, 2008, at 16:04:21
In reply to Re: Bad place, bad place (miscarriage TMI) + LONG » FindingMyDesire, posted by turtle on October 5, 2008, at 21:27:24
Dear Turtle: I really wanted to say how much I appreciated your very thoughtful post and what you shared about being a lesbian. I can feel so alone and challenged by my own internalized homophobia it's unbearable sometimes. I can't believe how much I can hate myself even though I came out 20 years ago this week! It was so helpful to have someone understand the unique challenge that can bring to therapy.
So, THANK YOU so much!
UPDATE:
I got to see my T yesterday and I was very curious about my reaction. It was actually an unusual state to find myself in - looking at myself in an interested and curious way.
I was totally experiencing two extreme emotions at once while I sat across from her. Total terror and intense joy. Plus, all of the debilitating hurt/anger just faded away the instant I saw her. I actually wondered to myself, 'how is that possible?' If I can feel so radically different when she is here vs. gone, what is really going on for me?
Anyway, I took all of my journal entries from the three weeks she was gone - unedited. It was like handing her the inside of my head and heart. I was scared, but surprisingly not as scared as I thought I would be. As a matter of fact, I think I trust her way more than I thought. But then if that's true - why did I absolutely lose my mind while she was gone? Why? I was ready to "break up with her." I want to figure this out. I want to learn about this so that I can take better care of myself.
She was so GREAT. She reassured me where I needed it and just took witness where I needed that. And despite my fears about scaring her off with my expressed anger, hurt, desire, sexual fantasies, intense attachment, etc. - she did not go away at all. Quite the opposite.
I included a whole list of questions for her - which I do not generally admit I have. I'm hoping we can discuss more of those tomorrow when I get to see her again. She said we could have a whole year's worth of content from this. I just hope she'll be around for that year...
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.