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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dory on September 29, 2007, at 20:28:12
last night i was sent a link to some of the most horrid things i have ever read... but i did read them... because it was about a family i knew, written by a member of that family... about the horror within that house. The abuse was awful. i knew some of them. One i knew well.. and feared... he grew up to hurt other kids. i felt like i owed it to them to read it... because no one listened to them then. But it shook me.. and there is so much about it i can't say.. not to anyone.. but it strikes me how incredible this world is in how it unfolds.
i am deeply sad now. Dwelling.
i can't even talk to my T about it... there is a lot of current event stuff going on and i have to face that stuff... so this other stuff has to wait.. how do i do that? how do i make the sadness wait?
Posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 20:41:03
In reply to horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by Dory on September 29, 2007, at 20:28:12
Don't wait. That stuff sounds just horrible, and it's going to be very hard to bear it alone. It might be a way of showing the pain- which, I think, you've indicated is a lot harder for you than "entertaining". In real life, being delightful and entertaining is a gift- many people will never have that- but, from what you've said, it's something to let go of in therapy. Then, when you get really better, you can entertain your T to your heart's content, and there won't be all the pain beneath it...
Posted by Dory on September 30, 2007, at 7:32:52
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » Dory, posted by twinleaf on September 29, 2007, at 20:41:03
> Don't wait. That stuff sounds just horrible, and it's going to be very hard to bear it alone.
it is.. but i've come to the conclusion that my own traumas don't count somehow.. and i don't want to upset or offend anyone so i have to choose my words carefully. Today, thankfully, there is a lot more awareness and empathy for people who went through CSA... as it should be.. but for *me* it almost feels like anything else is second rate or "not as bad." It's like emotional or mental abuse.. "not as bad as being beaten." People don't seem to have the same level of compassion somehow.. so i don't feel like i can feel bad or have pain or make any claim to the words trauma or abuse. (i often just call it the "a word" it's so hard to say)
suffering through being beaten or SA'd is horrific.. but the one thing is that it can be claimed as WRONG. No question. i am always questioning... i had my T leave me a voicemail once about something i had told him... i asked if i was overreacting and he said "it's as bad as you think, in fact, it's worse because from the inside it's easier to dismiss it." i listen to that message over and over.
face it... we all think sexual abuse is worse right? being beaten is worse..
i'm not trying to compare exactly, although i suppose that is what i am doing... it's more that i don't feel i have the right to use certain words because i don't meet the standard or something.
was i beaten? no. was i whipped with electrical cords? no. was i burnt or locked in closets for hours or days? no. was i molested? no.
one child in that family was raped by her grandfather when she was 5... her brother and two sisters confirm it... they walked in on it and helped clean her up...
how can i dare sit there and use words they might use? i feel ashamed to even feel bad for my own "events."
>In real life, being delightful and entertaining is a gift- many people will never have thattrust me, they don't want it... it's not something to envy... the "delight" is something someone else might feel, but it isn't at all what i feel. i often feel hollow and dead inside but all the while i am making someone else's day with tales of escapades... or giving them whatever else it seems like they need at the time.
it's not a gift to be this way... it's a curse.. it's only a gift if you want to do it and are able to when you want to... it's a gift if you really feel the way you are presenting yourself. i hate being this way, but i recognize the value in being able to turn it on.
>it's something to let go of in therapy.
ah.. if only i could... now that would be a gift. Quiet me can be present, i mean, i can be quiet me... but it takes a special environment, special circumstances. SOmetimes it happens when i am overwhelmed and i can't put on "the show" anymore, but then it's a sort of shut down.. there is little usefulness in that... but the state of mind which occurs in the right environment, well, i think that could be very useful.
so.. i wish i could let go. i wish i could even tell my T what i would need to fully be quiet me with him.. but i can't.. i know what i need but i just can't tell him. How pathetic is that?
Posted by RealMe on September 30, 2007, at 10:52:20
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » twinleaf, posted by Dory on September 30, 2007, at 7:32:52
Yes Dory; mental abuse is as bad as physical or sexual abuse. It was not okay for someone to abuse you in this way.
My current T has showed me how my mother was mentally abusive to me, and I have reacted very negatively to it. I don't want to think of her that way, but now other memories are surfacing that say, yes she was. It hurts really bad. So, you don't need to feel like feeling bad about mental abuse is wrong or not so bad. It is wrong and it can hurt horribly. I hope you and your therapist can continue to work on that, and I am glad you have a voice mail you can listen to with your therapist's voice reminding you of that.
RealMe
Posted by twinleaf on September 30, 2007, at 14:22:50
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » twinleaf, posted by Dory on September 30, 2007, at 7:32:52
I'm sorry, Dory. I really mispoke. I don't think I understood how painful it is for you to have a sort of entertaining surface self, while underneath you don't feel entitled to even "have" your own feelings.
I have read, several times, that emotional indifference and neglect is even more serious that physical or sexual abuse. They are all terrible, but being emotionaly neglected does lead to the feeling that you are suposed to take care of everyone else, but aren't entitled to any love, regard or care for yourself as you really are.
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 18:08:27
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » Dory, posted by twinleaf on September 30, 2007, at 14:22:50
Dory, are you my twin. I didn't think there was another person like this. I have been searching for someone. I thought I was a split person. I have done this too all my life. I don't know how to feel myself now. I can do exactly what you do, turn on for others to help them and then when I am alone I turn off. I am finding it harder and harder to do but then in a social setting I am bam back on. I will even say no I won't go there I will just be quiet me, but nope I am powerless. I am wondering if I am a split person. I know I dissaociate because of my childhood at least that is what my T said. Peopel think I like to talk alot, people think I am entertaining but that isn't me, that is the other person like you said the surface person. I understand exactly what you are saying because I do this. I don't want to anymore I want to well I don't know what I want to do. I can't even clean my house anymore. My T has dumped me I think. She hasn't called me back. I need to find a p-doc I think. I think I need meds. But just to talk finally to someone else I am glad I mean no I hate that you have experience this too because I know what you went through to get this way. I would erase that if I could but I do understand because everyday I go through it too unless I hide at home. Wow I am glad I came to this board via the meds board. Please post back so I know I didn't scare you but I am for real. rk
Posted by Wittgenstein on September 30, 2007, at 19:51:14
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 18:08:27
Dory,
All abuse is essentially 'mental' - neglect and physical/sexual abuse might leave physical scars but long after any physical impact has healed it is the mental scars that remain with us. Personally, having experienced emotional and physical 'abuse' (and abuse is also a word I find hard to use and accept), the emotional sticks with me far more vividly than the physical - I can 'forget' the physical more easily - and for me it was the emotional side of the physical that hurts me now.
I think a lot of people, regardless of the particular form of abuse, have big problems coming to accept that it was abuse - that it wasn't their fault. You see, to accept such things is to challenge many long-standing beliefs. We essentially assume our parents are 'good' - we have to. So we live with this illusion and fit our experiences to it - which can lead us to assume we are bad and deserving of abuse/neglect. In therapy, now everything is being put on its head and that can be extremely confronting and distressing.
I'm sorry you are having such a hard time of this Dory, but this is part of the process. At some point you will be able to accept what happened to you, that it was real and that it wasn't your fault.
Witti
Posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2007, at 21:50:02
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by Wittgenstein on September 30, 2007, at 19:51:14
Can two year old children kill their Mothers cause their Mother had to carry them up two flights of stairs? And the fact that she got psoriasis is also my childhood fault. But I do forgive my Mother as the temper tantums by her were while she was under cortisone treatment when it was new and he can cause psychosis. Wasn't her fault. No ones fault. Just life and I have to forget and live for tomorrow the past is gone. That is what my therapist and my rational brain tell me. Not easy but I didn't do it so how can I be the blame of someones illness. Makes no sense to me. So I will forgive. Phillipa
Posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 22:14:23
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2007, at 21:50:02
Dory, I re-read your first post and your experiences are just important to you as anybody else's on this board or any place else for that matter. You should not think that you aren't just as important as anybody else. Especially to yourself. The email you got while important should wait if you have things you need to deal with in your own life. You have a caring nature and tendency to put others first at your own peril. I understand that I do it too. Sometimes it is easier to help others than deal with our own issues but it is probably not heathlier for us to do that. I think with the amount of posters that responded you should see how much you are valued and we would all listen to your experiences and try to help as much as possible. So share with your T, share with us, share with whoever you need to but take care of yourself first and then help those around you as you can. You owe yourself that!!!
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 8:19:51
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 18:08:27
i will respond later today.. i am in a rush out the door.. and no, no one has scared me off.. i will respond. i appreciate the support guys. Thank you.
gotta run to submit my proposal. bbl
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 13:28:13
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » Dory, posted by RealMe on September 30, 2007, at 10:52:20
thank you RM... it's just hard to accept.. hard to "claim." i've always known, i never thought it was ok, but it wasin this wasteland somewhere in between.. wrong but not wrong.. wrong but not wrong *enoungh* i know how stupid that sounds.
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 13:41:42
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more » Dory, posted by twinleaf on September 30, 2007, at 14:22:50
> I'm sorry, Dory. I really mispoke. I don't think I understood how painful it is for you to have a sort of entertaining surface self, while underneath you don't feel entitled to even "have" your own feelings.
no, it's ok, i don't think you mispoke at all. Most people think that way about extroverted people... sometimes it's true. It's a part of something more reserved people wished thay had a little chunk of, so they never know that sometimes it's a prison. There have been positives, and there have been "gifts" or opportunities that i had because of it, no doubt. Job offers, making connections, etc... so, i suppose it's a useful tool sometimes. i just feel like i've got a tiger by the tail so to speak, it's controlling me and people think it *is* me. And worse, sometimes it overrides even common sense and i make poor decisions or act inappropriately because i can't tone it down. i'm not at all offended.
>
> I have read, several times, that emotional indifference and neglect is even more serious that physical or sexual abuse. They are all terrible, but being emotionaly neglected does lead to the feeling that you are suposed to take care of everyone else, but aren't entitled to any love, regard or care for yourself as you really are.i wish it were neglect.. although i suppose there was neglect as well. No affection, no words of support, no love in the physical sense (yes, all connotations)... for months at a time, and then even longer. Once it was 6 months without as much as holding my hand, much less any contact.
the "stuff" i suffered was emotional/mental... screaming (and i mean so that the air vibrated), belittling, threats of abandonment, threats of loss of security, being cursed at, objects thrown, public displays of screaming and swearing... and so much more. Oh god, so much more.
i woke up each day feeling a knot in my stomach. i walked on eggshells. i was afraid to be in my own home, but i was afraid to not be there too.
i did learn to take care of others first... from childhood on.. the above made it worse. i went from being everyone's advisor, caretaker, to being a personal 24/7 live-in therapist. Even my T thinks so.
so why can't i claim the same words as those who have been molested? why does it feel like it doesn't count as wrong enough?
i feel ashamed with no name for it. No feeling of having a right to name it or feel the way i do.
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 14:12:00
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 18:08:27
> Dory, are you my twin.
Nice to my you twin of mine. :o) i wish it were due to better circumstances. i wish we were twins due to something really fab.
>I didn't think there was another person like this. I have been searching for someone. I thought I was a split person. I have done this too all my life. I don't know how to feel myself now. I can do exactly what you do, turn on for others to help them and then when I am alone I turn off. I am finding it harder and harder to do but then in a social setting I am bam back on. I will even say no I won't go there I will just be quiet me, but nope I am powerless.
yes, you may very well be my twin! That is a very good description.. especially about telling yourself/myself that no, not this time and having happen anyway. You have it described dead on.
>I am wondering if I am a split person. I know I dissaociate because of my childhood at least that is what my T said.
well, thAT depends on what you mean by "split person." If you mean like having an alter or "multiple personalities" (now called DID) then no, you don't, or aren't. The definition of that, if you look up the DSM IV, requires that there be two or more distinct personalities... it means that you don't feel like it's "you" divided into two states of being, it means two people, one you know as you and one that is someone else. Make sense? What you have described, which i identify with completely, is more like two very different states of mind, more like phases of the same personality, but just so far apart in their attributes that even though they are both "you" they are not well integrated. God, i hope that makes some sense. When in the bold-you, you still know it's you, just a louder, bolder and almost out-of-your-control you... and quiet-you is less dominating, so you feel more comfortable with that when you can be there. Neither is ideal nor completely you. YOu are someplace in between... more to one or the other or maybe exactly in between.
i feel like "me" is still extroverted and still determined and has a lot of the bold-me characteristics... but i feel like my temperment is more like quiet-me. Less vocal, more attentive, more openly friendly instead of intense.. i feel there is potential for success there. In the other phases i am doomed. But it's been my T's words which have gotten me to see the potential part and the in between part. It does happen... just extremely rarely.
>Peopel think I like to talk alot, people think I am entertaining but that isn't me, that is the other person like you said the surface person. I understand exactly what you are saying because I do this. I don't want to anymore I want to well I don't know what I want to do.
it can eat you can't it? i know. the struggle to find one's self is difficult... but it is a brave thing to do, and it means you have had a realization that most people never get or turn away from. You should be proud of your inner voice that told you this. It's ok to be confused and afriad... just remember to try to calm your inner self by telling yourself that it truly is brave and it truly is ok. It's a journey. You didn't get to be that way for no reason, and you didn't get that way over night.. so it will take time and it will hurt.
>I can't even clean my house anymore.
clean houses are highly overrated ;o)
>My T has dumped me I think. She hasn't called me back.
i am doubtful on this. It does happen that people get uncerimoniously dumped, but not usually... most T's have the ethics to at least tell you. In fact, the worst cases i ever heard were one in which the T suddenly turned on the client and screamed she go away (ack!), and the other in which the T notified the client by registered mail instead of in person or via phone. i am not certain about this, but i would assume that any licensed T would be required by law to somehow terminate rather than vanish... maybe someone else knows more? i guess it depends on what type of T you have and where you live. i won't see anyone but a psychologist because then i know the level of their traingin and i know the rules they are bound by through the association. That is just me. Many people do well with other types of T's.
>I need to find a p-doc I think. I think I need meds.
why? do you think you have an illness or disorder? i am bipolar II, which means i never get fullblown mania. i get hypomanic and deep depressions. i am also a rapid cycler so it become hard to control once the ball gets rolling. My recent depression has lifted quite a lot so now most of what i get is situational.
can you tell me what makes you feel you need a pdoc or meds? it's ok ifyou don't want to share that. i would imagine the anxiety must be hard for sure.
>But just to talk finally to someone else I am glad I mean no I hate that you have experience this too because I know what you went through to get this way. I would erase that if I could but I do understand because everyday I go through it too unless I hide at home. Wow I am glad I came to this board via the meds board. Please post back so I know I didn't scare you but I am for real. rk
no.. you are not scary in the least. Bmail me. Honestly, i sometimes have fled from people when things have gone wrong.. i feel bad about that... but generally i've gone back and repaired it. If you bmail me i can give you a better idea of the triggers which are hard for me. This discussion is ok.
look forward to talking with you Twin ;o)
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 14:21:56
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by Wittgenstein on September 30, 2007, at 19:51:14
witty, you are so much stronger, despite your worries of perceived weakness at times. You have gained wisdom and insight i see. My childhood has traumas, but none via my parents really.. so i don't have to face challenging my ideal parent image/illusion so much. Later in childhood there were definitely problems. My "events" came from outside the home, but also from a person in a position of trust and authority to a child. One big thing i struggle with is that i told.. as in i told my T... i was never supposed to tell. And i haven't even told him what happened.
it's sick. it's horrible and i feel ashamed to say that i wish they had beaten me or did some other thing which seems more "accepted" as abuse.
but you are right... victims of any sort of abuse, no matter how blatant often have trouble defininf it as such.
this is a hard road. i knew it would be. i began it once before and had it blocked externally. so for years i knew i had to face this. a little bit of ignorance when starting therapy is probably a good thing, it allows one to wade in slowly before one becomes aware of deep water... i stood there looking straight at the deep water knowing full well.
thank you witty... you are on your way to becoming a very wise lady. i commend you on your persistance
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 14:27:49
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by rskontos on September 30, 2007, at 22:14:23
you are right that my immediate issues need attention.... but the problem is that my immediate issues seem to take up therapy continuously and have done for 8 months now... i told my T i wanted to try and go deeper because i felt that would help with the current stuff in the long run. But this is an exceptional case.. and i may very well have to tend to it first.
dealing with the email... it's not about dealing with that family and their own trauma's... it's how it related to my own.. and how that family in particular is related in a very bizarre way to my own... the roads cross at a point which astounds me. i suffered no childhood molestation... but there are many ways and times in life to damage a person.. so many ways.
i am trying to consider myself at all... putting myself first is a bigger leap than i can make yet.
Posted by Dory on October 1, 2007, at 14:38:06
In reply to Re: horrible things.. triggers and more, posted by Phillipa on September 30, 2007, at 21:50:02
>Just life and I have to forget and live for tomorrow the past is gone.
living for tomorrow... well, living for today is a good thing to do, it's all any of us can do to bring us any peace
but on the note of forgiveness... forgiveness has many facets and definitions. Forgiveness and forgetting are not blood relatives. Forgetting blocks forgiveness and denies it validation. Honouring one's own pain is an important process... recognizing the other person's role, deliberate or not, is also important. They both work in concert to acheive real forgiveness.
suffering at the hands of another doesn't make sense.. i agree.
This is the end of the thread.
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