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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on February 15, 2007, at 21:17:24
Ok, so I have this friend who is a T. She told me that she has a client who told her that he has romantic feelings for her. Apparently he asked her point blank whether she also has feelings for him. She was kind of thrown for a loop. The truth is that she likes him, and enjoys doing therapy with him, but is not romantically attracted to him at all. She's been seeing him for about a year.
She didn't tell me anything else, because of confidentiality requirements. I was trying to channel babble in my reply to her, but I wasn't really sure what I thought the right thing was.
Seems to me that if she avoids giving a specific answer, he'll be really frustrated. But if she answers "no" in any clear way, he'll feel rejected, which also won't be good for therapy. Maybe she could say the classic "what would it mean if I said yes/no?"
What would you want her to say if she was your T in this situation?
peg
Posted by annierose on February 15, 2007, at 22:16:53
In reply to What should this T do?, posted by pegasus on February 15, 2007, at 21:17:24
"No". This should be made perfectly clear. Her only interests should be to help him with whatever difficulties he sought treatment for.
Is she in a private practice? She should seek the advice of a superviser or another therapist. They will be able to help her with the dialogue. She should NOT send him any mixed messages. She is NOT a potential love interest.
Posted by Daisym on February 16, 2007, at 0:05:32
In reply to Re: What should this T do?, posted by annierose on February 15, 2007, at 22:16:53
I think she should explore with him why he feels what he feels and honor those feelings. And I think she can and should share that she enjoys working with him and cares about him (if she does.) But I agree with Annie, even if she is single and "available" she needs to make it clear that her feelings are not romantic or sexual in anyway, which is as it should be, since she is his therapist.
I also think she needs to look at what she knows about this client to guide her response. Is this a shy client who was likely terrified to tell her his feelings? If so, she should acknowledge that and support the expression of feelings. Is this a client who makes conquest of woman a priority? If so, she should call out this pattern and his need to add her to the list. Is this a client who has attachment issues? If so, a gentle exploration of what he really wants (are these maternal feelings mascarading as romantic feelings?)from her might be fruitful.
But please, for gosh sakes, tell her not to label these feelings as "just" transference and leave it there!! *sigh*
Posted by pegasus on February 16, 2007, at 9:29:44
In reply to Re: What should this T do?, posted by annierose on February 15, 2007, at 22:16:53
Hi annierose,
Well, I guess my hesitation here is that she *could* send him a very clear message that a romantic relationship is in no way possible between them, and that she will not pursue that, while not having to tell him that she doesn't find him attractive at all. Do you know what I mean? Would you really want your T to tell you that they were not at all attracted to you? I guess I feel that that message could be devastating to me, if I were in the client's shoes.
But that it might be easier to hear a T explore what's going on for me around the issue, while also making it clear that there is no chance of a different type of relationship between us. Does that seem too ambiguous? I agree with you that it would be bad to leave him any sense that a romantic relationship could develop.
peg
Posted by pegasus on February 16, 2007, at 9:39:00
In reply to Re: What should this T do?, posted by Daisym on February 16, 2007, at 0:05:32
Hi Daisy,
This sounds like what she was probably leaning toward. I believe that she didn't tell him yes or no yet, but did try to talk to him about what it means to him that he has those feelings. My guess is that she did talk about transference, but hopefully not in a way that made it seem like his feelings weren't real. She and I did talk about how tricky that was. I recommended not framing it as transference, but I guess he's savvy to the concept already.
She also told me that her supervisor told her that if she developed feelings for him, she'd need to transfer him to another T! I gave her a piece of my mind about that. Sheesh. It's not like sending someone off to another podiatrist or something! And after a year of therapy! What she needs to do in that case (IMHO) is ground herself in the impossibility of having a relationship with him, and then focus on his therapeutic best interests. And keep working with him AND with a good supervisor who can help her through it!
She did tell me that she had been in his shoes with a previous therapist at one point (although she never asked her T to say whether he was attracted to her), and she really felt for this client. She didn't feel like she handled this session all that well, and she wanted to bring up how it went in their next session, and talk about the whole issue more.
Thanks for your tips. I think it sounds like a good approach.
peg
Posted by Scentedgarden on February 16, 2007, at 13:20:14
In reply to Re: What should this T do? » Daisym, posted by pegasus on February 16, 2007, at 9:39:00
just my 2 cents worth again..as a safe place to vent...this is in my opinion only.but Im just fed up right now with the whole shabam..!
someone said it well, when they sais, "we are not hard wired for therapy".... " we are hard wired to fall in love"...therefore in my humblest of opinions, at this moment in time, I HATE THE WHOLE FECKING THERAPY SET UP..! .... It oozes with temptation, to become attracted to each other, therapist and the client alike.....and so just reading how all this has to have the sh*t analysed out of it makes me feel I want to puke therapy right out my mouth...! sorry if that offends anyone...but i developed a huge love for my therapist, and i know she has also taken me to her heart... it has caused both of us pain...more so for me though, as she after all has the ultimate control...
all im saying is if 2 people enjoy each other company, which in itself is nothing wrong about...its so sad we are hurt by it, and have to be supervised, and have to control ourselves...sometimes 2 people just click...imean for F*ck sake come on, its all a bunch of Bull to say transference aint reAL..!! (IN MY HUMBLEST OPININ I HASTEN TO ADD, SO IF YOU THINK IT AINT REAL PLZ DONT THINK IM TRYING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND...BUT IM SPEAKING MY MIND, AND THAT WAHT IM ON HERER FOR TO SHARE HOW I FEEL))) even my therpaist admitted to me that transference is just another word for feelings, but thats what is gets called in her game...
My therapist is a very mature and gifted woman/professional, she is a consultant clinical psychologist of the highest calibre, and has very good ethics, and morals....in my opinion.
the fact we like each other, or ignite feelings in each other that 'shouldnt be there' i say phooey... LOVE hurts sometimes.... but i can honestly say i wouldnt have it any other way..even although i thought the pain would kill me... I didnt die...and i know i can now move on and transfer that love i felt for her which i never thought i could feel again for anyone..to my future life, without her... Yes i hat her right now, but thats only tempoary. fundamentally I love her as human and i respect her as a woman i have grown to love... thats my experience... thats all, so plz dont think im dictating thats how it is for everyone in the loop of 'transfeckingference' cos it ain't...this is only scentedgardens life in this single post...and i just wanted to say wht i have said...readers can take it or leave it...
A million people could read what ive said and all have diff opinions about it... so im just letting you know this is a vent thats all..! not this is how it is according to scentedgarden and this is how it will always be...this is just me, and how I FEEL>>> I HAVE THE RIGHT TO MY FEELINGS... and like i say i wouldnt change them for the world...yes right now im hurt, and thats why i want to call her a bitch and hate her,,,but thats just me being silly and trying to protect myself in my pain...but underneath, i know what i know, and it wont matter what ... as everyone of us on this board are different... therapy to you will be different for therapy to me...
AS TO ANSWER THE ORIGINAL QUESTION...yes i think an intense therapy relationship can detract clients from using the energy by filling up their life with someone/people we can have a 2way open relationship with.... BUt at the same time in my case, i'd never have got to that place of being able to meet and get close to someone, and love again, if i hadnt had this experience in my relationship with her...
so i love her, and im grateful to GOD for giving me a woman who was able to click in a way with me that set my heart beating again...the child inside me who was dead....no one will EVER TAKE THAT away FROM ME AGAIN....!!!!
I LoVE MY THERApIST...she has never kissed me, or touched me inappropriately..never done anyhting way OTT to lead me on...we just gelled...it wasnt forced or collaborated, it just happened..
sorry i just realised this is the post after the one where someone asked if our relationship with T can interrfer in our real lives...i guess in my mind the 2 threadds are similar... APOLOGIES FOR GETTING MIXED UP...HOPE YOU DONT MIND..
i JUST WANT TO SAY THAT EACH THERAPIST MUST HAVE DOZEN OF PATIENTS...BUT THEY DONT FEEL THE SAME FOR EVERYONE...SO WHEN SOMETING REALLY INTENSE COMES ALONG, ITS USUALLY FEW AND FAR IN-BETWEEN.. just has to depend on the individual personalities involved on both sides...
but i agree with the person who said explore it witha good supervisor, and keep your own feelings in check...as to refer on a client just because she loves you, in my opinion is harmful, and damaging therapy...as it says if you love you will be rejected... big time..and the general point of therapy is usually to heal many hurts from childhood rejections...but thats just my 2 cents worth...God bless you - scentedgarden
P.S. sori 4 the spelling mistakes im sitting here cold and lazy, in the dark, cant hardly see the keys, and im alone on friday night feeling rather pissed off in general...as id like to be going to meet someons special...
at least im feeling ready for it...whereas prior to my relationship feelings for my lovely therapist who didnt dump me on someone else when i told her i wanted her to F*CK my brains out... and all the years of being in the room with her... im able to have a place open in my heart to try to love aomeone again..even although its scary as heck..as the therpay place is safe to love her..for someone like me, as i knew she'd never abuse me sexually or anyhting... i knew it, even although i wanted her to, i knew she never would...but the desire she invoked in me has been a huge part of my healing...
without LOVE flowing in the room and the intense raw emotional and erotic energy, i would not be able to say im almost ready to love again...and have a chance at some happiness for me...just like other normal people who have loving relationships..i had no chance before this happened to me...
okay, so i can call her a bitch yesterday, on here, because she is hurting me for reasons i cant explain to everyone....but thats my place to cal her a bitch if i want to...its only a cover to help me deal woith it... dont you ever do that?
but she aint really pulling my hair...she is now pushing me a way...as we are winding down, and she recently married...and i have a precious few sessions left... which have all come as a shock to me at once...simply becasue i was unable to face it head on, i knew but i knew as a bystander, not really able to face it all conciously..so when i did face it it hit me like a demolition ball in the stomach, for days and days and days..glad to say the pain is subsiding, and i didnt die...THE END
Posted by Daisym on February 16, 2007, at 20:40:31
In reply to Re: What should this T do? » Daisym, posted by pegasus on February 16, 2007, at 9:39:00
I think it is an interesting choice of words - "if she develops feelings for him" -- well, of course she has feelings for him! Good, bad or indifferent, they are feelings. I said this in another thread, but when a client is angry with the therapist, the therapist doesn't immediately back up and say, "ut-oh, do I feel angry with the client too? I better transfer them!" No, training tells us to ask about the anger and try to see if it belongs to the present moment or if it is old. Usually it is both. And we use the anger to get to the issues. Can't we do the same with love? I keep wondering why we (all) find love sooo scary. Is the potential for hurt that much greater? I guess it could be.
I think acknowledging that therapy *is* a set up for those kinds of feelings to surface is helpful. I'm glad my therapist "warned" me that all kinds of feelings were going to pass between us in our work. I didn't believe him at the time...
I guess I'm really glad you set her straight about transfering a client. That would be pretty awful after such an honest declaration. I wonder, if the therapist has feelings for a client who never admits feeling for the therapist, do the same rules apply? It probably helps that your friend has had the experience of working through such feelings. She can be confident that good therapy can still take place in the midst of emotional turmoil. After all, isn't that what this is about?
Posted by scentedgarden on February 17, 2007, at 8:57:04
In reply to Re: What should this T do? » pegasus, posted by Daisym on February 16, 2007, at 20:40:31
Posted by pegasus on February 20, 2007, at 9:18:23
In reply to What should this T do?, posted by pegasus on February 15, 2007, at 21:17:24
So, here's what she decided to do, and why:
First, she remembered her past therapy, where she was very attracted to her therapist. That therapist never told her whether he was attracted to her (she never asked - but she was pretty forthcoming about being attracted to him), which she sees as a good choice on his part. If he had told her that he was attracted to her, then she would have been wildly distracted her from her therapy goals. If he had told her that he was not, she would have been devastated.
This particular client sees his life as full of rejection. Because of that, and her own previous experience, she decided that it would not be helpful to him to tell him that she was not attracted to him.
Instead, they talked about how regardless of how she felt about him and he about her, it would not ever be an option to have a personal relationship, because of their therapeutic relationship. (He also knows that she is married, by the way.) Then they talked about what his fantasies were, and what motivated him to ask her how she felt about him, and how those fantasies and motivations play into the way he views himself, his life, etc.
I shared with her parts of your responses. She especially appreciated Daisy's comments about adjusting the response to the type of client. She appreciated annierose's comment about not being ambiguous. And she was moved by the strength of scentedgarden's feelings for her T (and vice versa), and how they've been helpful. All in all, I think she decided to back off on the discussion of transference in this situation (due to your comments), and try to be more authentically present for this client, even while not giving him a direct answer to his question.
Thanks much everyone. I'll pass along any additional comments you might have.
peg
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