![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 16:43:25
deputies, i just accidentally posted this on the eating board. I reposted it here when I realized, so can one of you please delete it on that board? It's the exact same post and I dont want to confuse anyone. Thanks.
I'm still around. I'm so sorry to have come, received support, and ran away.. that seems to be a pattern of mine but it is NOT because I dont care or appreciate the help. I just dont know how to relate to people and for the most part, just dont, I guess. I'm sorry. You all are wonderful.
I guess I'll give a brief update. I've been on the lithium for a few weeks now, and amazingly enough, it seemed to help a bit at 600mgs. I had moments where I felt better than I can ever remember feeling. But I had to cut back to 300mg recently, and the effect is mostly gone. I just feel a little blunted now.. but that is better than nothing. The suicidal feelings are still very much there, but not quite as urgent as a few weeks ago. I had to cut back because for the first time in my life, I was having panic attacks and lots of anxiety. I was very irritable and snapping at people all the time. None of these thinga are like me. Cutting back to 300mgs seems to have helped. The doctor was perplexed because those arent generally related to lithium, but I dont know how else to explain it. I see him again tomorrow.
I'm also continuing to see Ginny who I still love. The connection feeling isnt really there like I had with Anne and Laurie, and I miss that.. but in a way, I think it's a good thing. It keeps me from living session to session as much as I have in the past. She is very good though and I do like her a lot. Last week I told her she was hitting against something that was too hard, and rather than saying I wanted her to do all the work (like anne used to), she thanked me for being honest and said I was brave to tell her that. That felt good.
I think I've mostly moved on from the abandonment by Anne. Ginny and I spent 2 sessions talking about it. The first was spent trying to connect it to my family - the "this is your issue" approach. Finally, on the verge of tears, I told her I knew that but it just didnt matter. What Anne did was WRONG and it doesnt matter how I grew up, it doesnt change it. Of course that didnt happen until the end of the session (why do big moments always happen that way?) The next session, we talked again and I told her how devalidating it feels to have everyone blow my pain regarding this off as just being transference or "my problem". We had a conversation about how therapists dont generally react and that lack of reaction doesnt necessairly mean anything.. it doesnt mean that what she did was okay. Ginny said "shed never have done it that was herself" and "it may have been unprofessional". Very vague statements, but it was enough. I felt like she was telling me that yes, it was wrong, even given all my "stuff". In a way, that's all I needed to hear to start letting it go. Of course you all had told me that a million times, and that helped a great deal, but I needed it from a professional.
Apparently Ginny spoke to Anne on the phone a few weeks ago. She said Anne was interested to hear how I was doing. Anne said that she thought there were a lot of transference issues and that was why her and I didnt work out. I just wanted to cry hearing that. She's just on her own planet! I'm sure some of the issues were transference.. but goodness. Why didnt she address that when I was there then? And she also told Ginny that she thinks my seeing Laurie over the summer was partially why our relationship dissolved. The part that upsets me about that is that Anne and I discussed for weeks whether or not seeing Laurie was the best idea, and Anne would never give me a straight opinion. Oviously she had one, and had she just told me it, I likely wouldnt have gone and seen Laurie. Ugh. Transference or not, some of my reasons for being upset with her were very real. It still hurts when I drive by her office and see her car there.. I still get a twinge of "Anne, help me, take care of me"-like feelings... but I wont act on it. It's just a feeling. That is probably the transference piece. I'm considering writing her a letter and stating my feelings on those issues I just wrote about in a professional, matter-of-fact way, but I havent decided yet whether it's a good idea. I wouldnt expect or even want a response.
Therapygirl, I'd be interested in your thoughts on that since your situation was so similar... I'd also be interested in any thoughts you have now, looking back on your situation, about how to get past it? I do think I have made some big steps towards moving on, but I'm not there yet. What would you say helped you the most? The least? Any wisdom would be very appreciated... I'm so sorry to hear you went through something similar, but it does help to know I'm not alone. You are really the best.
Otherwise, I guess I'm doing okay. I'm just sad. Today is the lowest I've felt in probably 2 weeks, so I'm afraid I'm on the downward spiral again. I just want my mommy... I think my inner child is lonely and screaming and crying these days. Of course I dont want my REAL mom - shed be no comfort. I just want to be loved like a mom loves her little girl, odd as that sounds.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 17:24:19
In reply to im still around, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 16:43:25
Good to hear from you again, WS. I've been thinking about you lots and hoping you were doing okay.
It sounds like you're doing the best you can with the current situation and that's something to be proud of. I'm sorry you had to cut back on the lithium when it seemed to be helping the depression. I'll be interested in what your pdoc says tomorrow.
About your question -- part of it was just time. It just took time for me to give up the notion that crazy T was EVER going to do right by me and it took time to let go of my anger towards her. It really helped to not have laid eyes on her since all this happened. Even today, I don't know what I'd say if I actually saw her. But mostly I pretend that she doesn't exist.
I did send her the letter with the bill from the city for "escorting" me to the hospital. I got a lot of my stuff down in that letter about how poorly she'd handled the situation, etc., and that also helped. But I never told her about the hour spent in the bathroom at the hospital after her call and I never will. I did tell my good T about it.
For years afterwards, though, I would have recurring nightmares about crazy T whenever I was under stress. I would bring it up in therapy every time it happened, but mostly got very little response to it. Until several years ago, when my T looked at me and said, "Crazy T represents all the people you've tried to get your needs met with who have let you down." And that finally made sense to me about why I would keep dreaming about her. I haven't had a dream about her since then.
I think Ginny's validation of your pain and Anne's unprofessional-ness is going to help you in the long run. Other than that, I think you're doing the right kinds of things. I would encourage you to write the letter to Anne -- without censoring yourself or trying to sound professional. Get it all out and then just throw it away or pack it away somewhere. Then write the professional letter that you want to send. I'm a big believer in holding people accountable whenever possible. And especially when they've hurt us.
Keep taking care of yourself, okay?
Posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 19:31:03
In reply to Re: im still around » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 17:24:19
Thanks therapygirl, both for answering and thinking of me, and for sharing more about your ex crazy T.
I think time is what it will take for me too. Time has helped so far. And I think as I get closer to Ginny and trust her more, I wont wish for Anne as much... even though saying that is silly because I wasnt actually really close to Anne. I just wanted so desperatly to be.
Had I not already contacted Anne since this incident, I'd definitely send a letter. I agree with you that it's good to call someone out when theyve acted inappropriately in this way, especailly a professional. But a few days post-termination, I left her a not-too-kind letter in her box saying that what she did was hurtful, unprofessional, and that she should know better. It was about 2 pages long. I ran into her when I was dropping it off and we talked for a minute... she knew I was angry and hurt, but it was a very brief conversation. Then a few weeks later I ran into her at a restaurant, asked for a termination session, and she seemed very hesitant but said shed think about it. A few days later, I left a message on her voicemail retracting my request and saying that I didnt understand her resistance to terminating fairly but that it was her issue, not mine. Not very kind, obviously. 2 weeks later or so she sent me a letter, the text of which I posted on here. It was very brief, not very personal, and still missed the point.
So given that, is writing a letter really justified and/or worth my time? I dont want to beat a dead horse, but at the same time, I do feel like I have a lot of "new" things to say, and it would be a kinder, more detached letter this time.. not the angry, hurt one I wrote last time. But I dont want to be "the client who just wont go away" either.. I dont want to be the crazy one in the end of this, you know? I hope that makes sense. I even am starting to feel that way talking about it with Ginny.. as though I just need to be quiet and get over it. I'm obsessing and overreacting and need to just get a grip. I'm embarassed to even mention it. But really, I dont know that theres much more I can say about it anyway.
I like what your good T said about crazy T representing all the people who have let you down. That makes a lot of sense to me as well. I just needed her to not be another one of those people, you know? It's amazing I can still bring up tears over this... geez!!
I miss Laurie quite a bit recently. I wrote her a very nice (I think) thank you card and mailed it a week or so ago. I'm sure shes gotten it by now. I was sort of hoping she'd call, but I'm not upset she didnt.. disappointed maybe, but not upset. I didnt really expect her to, I just hoped. I know she got the message and knows how much I appreciate her, and that was really my goal.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 20:22:21
In reply to Re: im still around » TherapyGirl, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 19:31:03
So maybe write the letter for yourself and don't send it. Just let it all out -- the things you're worried that you're obsessing about, all the hurt, the anger, whatever is there. And then you don't have to worry about Ginny's reaction or Anne's or being the "crazy" one or anything else. Just get it out.
It does occur to me that perhaps a second letter pointing out to Anne the wrongness of her continuing to blame this on your issues is called for. I mean, honestly, does anyone deserve to be dumped from therapy in this way???????????? So perhaps you could address just that kind of thing in a letter that you send to her -- that surely they taught her how to properly terminate a patient and surely it was not through a third party while the patient was in a crisis. You know? Because she is SO WRONG. At least my crazy T never blamed it on me -- not to my knowledge anyway. Anne is clueless and MEAN. My ex-T was just stupid and crazy.
I hope this all gets better for you soon.
Posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 20:55:41
In reply to Re: im still around » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 20:22:21
That's how I feel too! But Anne (according to what she told Ginny anyway) explains it differently.
Anne and I had talked about the idea that maybe it wasnt working, maybe I should switch, etc, but I was having a very hard time deciding. I was very attached and it was hard to think of not seeing her anymore... and I wasnt completely sure the reasons the therapy was going bad werent my fault, and something I needed to work through. So, apparently Anne's explanation now is that I was having a hard time leaving, and she felt like she had to do it for me. Now, I can see that argument IF it was true! Part is true - I was having a lot of trouble with the idea of quitting. But never once - not one time - did she tell me I needed to move on, she wouldnt see me, it was over, etc. Not once did she say that, so obviously there was never a time where I refused to leave, manipulated things so I could stay, etc. I mean, had she said "next week is your last session" what could I have said? Been upset, sure.. but I wouldnt have kept showing up anyway. All along I felt like she was sort of torn between me staying and leaving too. In fact, when she talked to Randy (when she dropped me) he said that she told him just that - that she wasnt sure what to do. So it's a bad excuse. But I know it's how she's justifying it to herself. Did I need a little kick in the butt to get moving? Probably. But that was more than a little bit of tough love, so to speak.
I think Anne's meanness comes out of an amazing degree of cluelessness. I dont think she really means to be mean. I think she is just so out there.. so clueless.. she doesnt realize how she may be affecting someone. And that's SCARY for any person, especially a therapist.
Eerrrrr. It's just so unfair. I see Ginny tomorrow.. maybe I'll talk to her about this. Thank you again.
Posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 21:09:25
In reply to Re: im still around » TherapyGirl, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 20:55:41
But regardless of what she tells herself, she still should have been human enough to do it face to face. See how her arguments fall apart? What possible justification would there EVER be for doing it the WAY she did it.
I do think you should keep talking to Ginny about it. And give her a chance to let you be with it. I'd be surprised if she thought you should be done with this already.
Posted by sunnydays on November 27, 2006, at 21:24:33
In reply to im still around, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 16:43:25
((((((((((((((wishingstar))))))))))))))))
I'm sorry you're hurting. I understand that feeling of wanting to be a loved little girl. I've been feeling that a lot lately. If I could, I would hold you and rock you and sing to you and keep you safe and tell you everything would be all right.
sunnydays
Posted by ElaineM on November 28, 2006, at 12:51:00
In reply to im still around, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 16:43:25
Wishingstar, glad to see you're around again. It sounds like alot of stuff has been happening. I'm glad that you think a medication is making a bit of a difference - even if it's small. I know you wondered about that before. It's encouraging to hear.
And it sounds like you're at a slightly different place regarding what happened with Anne. The one part that touched me was when you said, "In a way, that's all I needed to hear to start letting it go." Maybe I'm really sentimental today, but I thought that sounded beautiful. The idea beautiful. I guess cause letting go doesn't mean anything like forgetting, or not dealing with - but more like an accepting or something. It sounds like Ginny is a help. I'm glad she's supportive of both reasonings (ie. transference, but also the real-life exchange that went on - cause it did). I'm happy for you that it doesn't hurt quite the same way now as it did at the beginning - not to say it's still not with you. It's okay to still miss Anne and Laurie - they were part of your life. But I also think you deserve to have Ginny :-)
Anyways, it's nice to hear from you, though I'm sorry your going through a low part right now.
((((WS)))))
Blove, EL
Posted by muffled on November 29, 2006, at 0:35:28
In reply to im still around, posted by wishingstar on November 27, 2006, at 16:43:25
Posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 17:02:12
In reply to Re: im still around » wishingstar, posted by TherapyGirl on November 27, 2006, at 21:09:25
You're right. I know it took me a day or so to respond, but I've been thinking about what you said. And you're right. It doesnt matter one bit what I did, or didnt do. I mean, maybe if I was showing up at her office every day and camping out in front of her door it could be justified, but I certainly wasnt. I never refused to leave, didnt call often outside of sessions, etc. Yes, it was hard for me to take the step to quit therapy with her and I needed a push. But that does not justify what she did. It just doesnt. Youre so right. What I just typed is mostly for me.. I'm almost thinking it out as I type. But thank you. For some reason hearing that just struck me differently this time.
I didnt end up talking to Ginny about it on Tues. I go back tomorrow. We'll see. Tomorrow she said she plans to push me on a certain topic I'm not terribly comfortable talking about (basically, why I hate myself and the bad things I tell myself). I'm dreading it. I feel like she's not going to let me dance around anything. I'm scared. So I dont know if Anne will come up or not. But I am going to mention in again sometime. Thank you.
Posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 17:05:39
In reply to Re: im still around, posted by sunnydays on November 27, 2006, at 21:24:33
Thank you sunnydays. That really touched the little girl in me, I think. I appreciate you thinking of me.
Posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 17:16:35
In reply to Re: im still around, posted by ElaineM on November 28, 2006, at 12:51:00
Yes.. good news for the lithium I guess. I saw my pdoc yesterday and he added another... lamictal. So now it's 300mg lithium and working towards 100mg lamictal. It seems odd because that is a very bipolar-oriented med cocktail, at least in my mind.. I feel weird with knowing my major problem is unipolar depression and I'm not on ANY anti-depressants. But who knows. Lithium helped a little, so it doesnt hurt to try I guess. Unfortunately I wont know for another 6 weeks!
I'm glad what I said touched you.. I didnt intend it to be powerful or touching, but sometimes things just hit us in surprising ways, I think. I am definitely in a different place.. but yes, it still hurts. And yes, it definitely does not mean forgetting. I think this is something I will remember as long as I live.. and I wouldnt be surprised if there isnt always a little twinge of pain associated with it. But it wont be an open sore forever.I hope you're doing well elaine. Even though I've been sort of anti-social on the boards recently, I have been reading some and I do think of you a lot. I hope things are working out for you.
Posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 21:46:07
In reply to Re: im still around » ElaineM, posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 17:16:35
I'm just adding this on to my old thread even though its a seperate issue because I dont think it really deserves a new thread.. its really just a passing thought.
Ginny suggested the other day that even though I say I was happy and doing well through college, that maybe even then I wasnt really happy.. just not as depressed as now. She thinks maybe I've never really been actually happy.
It makes me think a lot. Right now, I'm feeling okay. I dont have that terrible heavy feeling that depression gives me.. the feeling that I just cant do anything, cant get out of bed, etc. I dont feel particularly bad. But at the same time, I still want to die, just in a more passive way. I feel fine, but I still dont really want to be alive.
It's scary because I dont think I know where happy is. Where's the line between depressed, manic, and "normal"? I FEEL okay, but when youre happy, you shouldnt still want to die, right? Is my baseline off?
Ginny seemed surprised when I said this not knowing is scary. It isnt the word she expected. I cant really say why, but it is.
Posted by Lindenblüte on November 30, 2006, at 13:05:06
In reply to is this depression?, posted by wishingstar on November 29, 2006, at 21:46:07
> Ginny suggested the other day that even though I say I was happy and doing well through college, that maybe even then I wasnt really happy.. just not as depressed as now. She thinks maybe I've never really been actually happy.
>Oh my god! My old T said the exact same thing to me. He said that when I was "happy" and doing well in college, how was my relationship with my family? (um, nonexistant?) And when I tried to debate it with him, all my stup id reasons for why I was "happy" seemed shallow. Oh, I'm sure I had a lot of good times, and I really enjoyed my college experience. But was there ever a time in college where I could just let go of myself? Allow myself to feel? To be? No. There were always concerns about how I could negotiate various scary situations. I stayed very busy and probably kept myself out of depression by having a very active social life, playing violing 20 hours a week, and working out. Of course, senior year I had what I think? was my first major depressive episode (that I had noticed) Also, looking back at who my friends were-- they were always people whose problems seemed larger than mine; whose grief was more justified; whose love was more salient; whose relationship crises seemed more urgent. I guess I never allowed myself to appear vulnerable to the extent that I might be able to notice -- hold on-- this is not good, I'm DEPRESSED.
> It makes me think a lot. Right now, I'm feeling okay. I dont have that terrible heavy feeling that depression gives me.. the feeling that I just cant do anything, cant get out of bed, etc. I dont feel particularly bad. But at the same time, I still want to die, just in a more passive way. I feel fine, but I still dont really want to be alive.
>
Okay, well- you've gotten your neurotransmitters stabilized. That's good. Now you have to figure out what you want to live for. That's hard. I still have moments when I think to myself- it would just be easier to die than to finish up my PhD. Lately, though, I've been trying to rekindle my interest in my topic. Hey, if *I* don't do this research, maybe no one will, and it's a really interesting topic (okay, some days it's the dullest topic in the world, to tell you the truth). I just have to think about the big picture, though. What parts of my life give me satisfaction. The answer is, almost EVERYTHING I do can give me satisfaction, if I allow it to. Cleaning the toilet is satisfying, because I can rediscover glossy porcelain and I will be proud to have friends over for dinner tonight. Walking down the block can give me satisfaction because I can focus on how straight I can walk, or how the air smells on this new day.I don't want to make it seem like puppy dogs and rainbows will be yours if you can just "snap out of it". I just want to give you permission to notice some small details of your life that seem brighter than the day before. It takes some time before you can retrain your mind to think in these terms after such a long deep depression. You may still need some tweaking to your meds, just to help give you a little more brightness to your moods.
> It's scary because I dont think I know where happy is. Where's the line between depressed, manic, and "normal"? I FEEL okay, but when youre happy, you shouldnt still want to die, right? Is my baseline off?
I don't think your baseline is off, I just think that your neurotransmitters have reached "normal" but your mind hasn't quite caught up yet. In your therapy, you might start to work on figuring out where these bad thoughts come from, and what they are trying to tell you.
> Ginny seemed surprised when I said this not knowing is scary. It isnt the word she expected. I cant really say why, but it is.
It IS scary, wishing*. You're in uncharted waters. Everything feels new, and you don't know what to expect. At least when you're depressed, you know what to expect. Another day of mopey misery. But when you actually have energy to do stuff with your day... and you don't quite know WHAT to do? or what's important? well, it's scary. Also you are probably getting to know Ginny better, so maybe you're starting to work on some hard stuff now. Just remember that fear is a feeling. You don't need to be afraid of yourself. You are going to be okay. You've made it through the worst, and now you have more of your senses available to you. You might be scared because you're looking back, and you are scared at the danger you were in. You might be scared, because you don't know when "ill" is going to stop and "well" is going to begin. Try to take one day at a time, and keep track of your progress. It might seem slow and you might be impatient, but it's happening. You sound a LOT more stable than when we heard from you last.
Take good care of you, okay?
-Li
Posted by wishingstar on December 1, 2006, at 9:48:28
In reply to Re: is this depression? » wishingstar, posted by Lindenblüte on November 30, 2006, at 13:05:06
Never having been happy is a scary thing to realize. I can really relate to what you said about your college years. Mine was similar in some ways. I mostly just went through the motions... go to class, do homework, go home, etc. My grades were always good. But I never really had friends, and that was mostly by choice. I just didnt interact with people. But when I was forced, I was very friendly, pleasant, etc.. it was just a show. Never did it occur to me that I didnt feel happy. But I guess you can only push forward and ignore it so for long, and then BAM. Here I am. Sounds like what happened to you too.
I'm not sure that I'm totally stabalized on meds yet, but certainly better than a few months ago. We're still trying new things, trying to find something that works better.. but the crashes arent as hard. I'm not having hours and hours where I cant get out of bed. :) That's a good sign. Thank you for noticing that I seem more stable.. I think I am. I'm actually sort of proud to hear someone say that, weird as that sounds.
But starting to feel better is actually very scary too. I find myself wanting to sabotage it sometimes. Ginny and I have talked about this. I really dont know what causes me to get so scared, but if I can get to a certain point of "feeling better" I think that feeling will go away. It usually has in the past. I think the reasons you listed for it being scary are probably it. I feel better, feel happy enough to go out and be social once in awhile.. but the motivation to do it and the social skills and the confidence arent there yet. I'm stuck in this difficult inbetween place and I dont know how to get out. But hopefully in time itll fix itself.
The other very scary piece is the not knowing what will be left when the depression is gone. I know it sounds silly, but I'm afraid there wont be much left. I've been depressed for so long, I dont know who I am without it. I dont really believe that theres anything unique about me, or that anything is really all that important, or that anyone will want to pay any attention to me at all, without it.
Ginny is really good and I think youre right about that being part of the fear. I know I cant just float week to week with her as I did with Anne. I felt the inklings of a connection yesterday. I mean, we've gotten along since day 1 but I never had that feeling, but yesterday I started to feel it. We were talking about self-nurtuting and she mentioned some pillow she has that shes had since she was a kid, and her husband teases her and says its gross, but she still keeps it. I was really touched that she told me that. It made her very real to me. I think that might be what sparked the good feelings.
Sorry for rants in so many different directions. Your post gave me a lot to think about. Thank you.
PS, I love " wishing* " haha thats great!
Posted by Lindenblüte on December 1, 2006, at 11:12:52
In reply to Re: is this depression? » Lindenblüte, posted by wishingstar on December 1, 2006, at 9:48:28
Wishing*,
you're going to get out of it. Part of the fear is the unreasonable voice of the Big-D (that's my nickname for depression) trying to do all it can to lure you back into darkness.
You're still having disordered thinking, which is very natural at the stage where you are. One of those disordered thoughts is that you will have nothing left after you emerge from depression.
I am still consistently amazed when I go back and look at the work that I managed to do when I was depressed. At the time, I thought it was complete garbage. Going back to it, it's just fine. I can hardly tell that I was sick, except that my handwriting is smaller and cramped, and that the dates in my lab notebook are awfully far apart.
You may also be surprised when you go back to "pick up the pieces of your life" that actually-- there's a lot of good stuff there.
Furthermore, you can give yourself a much-deserved fresh start. If part of your life is a total mess (like your finances) you can devote your new energy to consolidating your debts and making contact with your creditors about outstanding bills.
Think of it as an opportunity. My T told me that crisis is an opportunity for change and growth.
Best wishes for your continuing healing. It took a while to get into deep depression, and it may take a while to have it completely behind you.
-Li
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2006, at 11:50:18
In reply to Re: is this depression? » Lindenblüte, posted by wishingstar on December 1, 2006, at 9:48:28
Wow. Its so great you FINALLY got a good T WishStar.
Yeah, the getting better thing is scarey I think. We have so defined ourselves by our negative view of ourselves, that anythoing else is freaky.
I guess i think I been depressed a long time too I think.
Thats what 2 of my sisters have said to me anyways.
But like SO many others things in our family, it wasn't dealt with....
Take care,
Good to see you feeling a little better and better able to start sorting stuff out,
Muffled
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.