![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on November 3, 2006, at 18:27:10
He didn't do anything wrong or say anything wrong, but everything was all wrong.
I don't know if it's him or me, but I begin to wonder if the real problem is that I don't need him anymore.
But I still need to need him. I can't imagine a worthwhile life without needing him.
The good to bad session ratio is not encouraging.
Posted by Jost on November 3, 2006, at 22:30:03
In reply to Another cr*ppy session, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2006, at 18:27:10
What actually happens, literally, in a detailed way (not that you have to tell the details--any or all)-- when "everything" is "all wrong"?
Because if you can even just describe what it is-- you may figure out something.
Do you walk in and feel stuck? like you don't know what to say? disappointed? like if you say x, he'll say y-, you already kind of feel like you've discussed it, and shouldn't need to go through it "again"-- and if so, what is it you've already discussed-- ie what was/wasn't said?
is there something you want without being able to identify it-- ?
I don't know. Somehwere in the details or what you said, or didn't say, or how you sat, or he sat, or what you thought about, and what stopped you from talking, or what you talked about, I don't know. there are clues to what you do need.
I'm sure you do need him. You don't stop needing people who are that important because you're better. You might need them in a different way, and do different things with them-- but you don't stop needing them.
I know that's not the theory, but I think therapy is evolving-- into a different thing from what it was-- when it was created. Don't know into what, maybe many things-- sometimes a permanent relationship-- if a strangely constituted, and hard to rationalize one (at least hard, thus far).
Jost
Posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 0:52:41
In reply to Another cr*ppy session, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2006, at 18:27:10
I think I understand what you mean by needing to need him, Dinah. It is hard to put into words but there is such a huge hole when that need goes missing. The need itself is sometimes painful, but the hole is way worse.
I know for me, when I get disconnected like that, I'm usually squashing my younger parts and keeping them out of the session. Did you take your emotional self today? Or did your rational self show up? Because we both know that "she" doesn't always want to be there.
I hope you have a good weekend, despite your session.
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2006, at 0:59:59
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session, posted by Jost on November 3, 2006, at 22:30:03
I think I know what's wrong. It's lack of connection. I guess he's busy and distracted, and it doesn't feel like he puts his entire self into the relationship.
But I've been depressed, and it's entirely possible that it's me who isn't connecting.
At any rate, he's usually pretty good at owning up when he's not fully present and trying to fix it, and he's been telling me lately that it's on my end.
He's fidgeting a lot, and that sends the message to me that he's bored and impatient. But he might be bored and impatient because he feels my lack of connection.
I can't really put my finger on it. There doesn't seem to be any withholding on his part. He still seems as relaxed and informal with me as he has for the last year or so. Sometimes it's sort of amusing how relaxed and informal he is with me.
And he's been very generous and open at sharing his proposed plans for moving office space to a joint practice with the pdoc from h*ll, and why he's doing it, etc. He knows I have reason to feel uncomfortable with being in contact with said pdoc, and keeps reassuring me he's changed. Unfortunately, the location will be going from bad to worse. But if I travelled to see him three hours away, I guess I can manage this. Can't the darn man locate in one of the many areas where parking is ample and free? He's going from expensive parking garage parking to on the street parking that's nerve wracking and hard to find. I'll start stocking up on quarters. He reassured me that if I don't want to see him there, he's also looking into timesharing arrangements, such as at his wife's office where they have extra space available. If he thinks his wife's office is a step up from the pdoc from h*ll, I think he underestimates my aversion to the collision of outside and inside therapy worlds.
I don't think it's the move that's the problem, because I just found out the specifics today, while the disconnect has been an ongoing concern for months.
I think I ask too much. I need for him to be available and consistent in a way that might be unreasonable. And perhaps the reason that he used to be that way had nothing to do with him, but rather had to do with the distorted (in a positive direction) view I had of him.
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2006, at 1:04:02
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Dinah, posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 0:52:41
It has been hard to summon my emotional self to be fully present at sessions. Not least because I've been so darn busy at work. But also because of the depression. I know he could help with that if I could manage to make a connection, but I keep seeming to fall short.
I'm seriously thinking of either taking a break or cutting down to once a week. I'd really like to try the other route and increase to three times a week to try for repairs, but I frankly can't afford even the twice a week at this time. And it's not really cutting it, and it's not worth the time and money.
Therapy is so darn hard, isn't it? And sometimes when we need it most, it seems most elusive.
Posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 19:12:04
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Jost, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2006, at 0:59:59
Wife's Office????? No, nope, na-huh, no way, wha???, thinkagain, sorry no-can-do!
okay, how are you supposed to deal with that? Maybe he is disconnected.
Once my T and I discussed spouses who share offices. Thank goodness he averred complete non-approval of that. Otherwise I"m not sure he could be my T.
Maybe the office change is dislocating-- to coin a phrase. It sounds like a technicality, or inconvenience, but maybe it has deeper meanings. Maybe it evokes something you're not aware of, and couldn't necessarily explain or even understand.
And what would make the pdoc from h*ll change? the new prefrontal cortex transplants? hasn't you T noticed how hard it is for people to change, even when they aren't pdocs?
It's even harder for a pdoc to change-- sort of like the rich getting into heaven or something.
Maybe his making it harder for to you to see him, even if you know, intellectually he's not doing it to thwart or frustrate, estrange or hurt you-- maybe it somehow does-- maybe it feels as if you shouldn't have to work any harder than you are?
It might not be the specifics of the move-- but the impendingness of some change-- which isn't recent.
He was going to take that other job-- and then he was maybe going to take an other job-- maybe all that disarranges things-- It's as if there's sense of relaxation and informality on the surface (ie when you're together)-- but some quiet, unspoken, but ominous discomposure of things-- unpredictable, uncertain-- but very much in the air-
maybe that's gotten to you. Or maybe some of the schisms of other moves-- I remember there was such huge shift that didn't happen, but was promised, in May or June-- that really upset you. It isn't that long ago-- at least in my psychic time--
When do you think the disconnect starter, or got more difficult to move through?
I'd be pretty disturbed if my T was about to move-- anywhere, including across the street. (Of course, across the street is a park, so it would be kind of chilly in the winter on the benches.)
Wife's office?????? oh, you got to be kidding!
Jost
Posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 20:18:20
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session, posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 19:12:04
Part of your post made me laugh, Jost. Do you have experience with this?
The one "flaw" of my therapist has always been that he and his wife share the practice (with a few other psychologists) and their offices are side by side. Luckily for me, my therapist uses another office in another city two days a week, which is where I started seeing him. I love that office - it is like a treehouse. I've gotten use to the other office but it still upsets me when I actually run into his wife, either in the waiting room or in the restroom, or hallway, or parking lot...well -- you get it.
We talk about it when it happens and it probably has stimulated discussions that wouldn't otherwise take place. And his office is HIS office, she isn't in there. So I don't have to think about what is her stuff or his stuff. I've given him a few things over the years and they are displayed in his office, which makes me ridiculously pleased.
But I still hate it.
Posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 21:06:13
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Jost, posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 20:18:20
Yes, Daisym, I have.
The T I had right before my last T shared the office with his wife. I think they used the same office on different days, and also had an office at their home, outside the city.
The first day, I came to the building and said I was going to Dr. X's office. The doorman said, oh, her office is on the x floor.
I thought to myself, her??? I thought this guy was, a guy. um, that's weird.
He never mentioned the existence of his wife-- so I chalked it up to doorman inattentionitis-- until-- I can't remember how I realized this-- I think I called and his message said something about leaving a message for Dr. or Mrs. X.
And I totally freaked out.
It wasn't going all that well-- but the idea that his wife was using the same office for her patients-- and that he basically had his voice saying to leave a message for him or her--- YYYYUUUCCCKKKK.
As it turned out, that therapy (if that's the word for these things when they crater) was a disaster, plane going down in flames, etc.
No way would I ever see a T whose wife was in the vicinity-- sorry, I need my T to myself-- at least that much.
Jost
Posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 21:12:05
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Jost, posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 20:18:20
Plus that treehouse office sounds so great.
Definitely a place where something good could happen.
I'm glad your relationship was strong enough to survive the transition and other onslaughts that take place occasionally.
(I'm making the sign of cross and wearing some garlic right now, to ward off vampires, wives and other creatures of the night....)
Jost
Posted by Daisym on November 4, 2006, at 22:57:26
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Daisym, posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 21:12:05
I saw my therapist in the treehouse office for about a year and a half before I went to 4 days a week. That meant I had to "use" both offices.
My "worst" story about his wife was about a time they went on vacation. Usually my therapist is the voice on the message machine and he does the whole "push 1 for X, push 2 for XX" etc. But for whatever reason, it was her voice saying that "they" were on vacation and you could get in touch with X or XX who were covering. Pretty standard stuff. BUT - I freaked out. He was gone - completely gone -- no voice, no sessions, no nothing. I could push 2 and leave him a message, but it was that automated thing that says his name. But if you pushed 1, there she was, reassuring HER clients that she'd be back soon.
By the time he came back, I was wrecked enough to tell him how horrible it was for me to not be able to "hear" him in anyway. Since then, he calls and leaves me a personal message to hang on to on MY voice mail, telling me he'll be back. And I've noticed that he does the outgoing message now instead of having it automated. I wonder if anyone else complained?
Anyway - it tends to be challenging. I'm glad they aren't actually using the same office.
Posted by annierose on November 5, 2006, at 8:46:58
In reply to Another cr*ppy session, posted by Dinah on November 3, 2006, at 18:27:10
I think I know what you are feeling, the need to need somebody to watch over you, protect you, feel connected with/to.
You are strong. You technically don't "need" to see him, but he has come to feel like a soft place to land when you are feeling stressed, upset, depressed, frustrated, etc. And it's good as well as comforting to have a soft place to land. And you share a rich history with him, better than any best friend.
Think of your expectations for each session. Think of it in terms of dating. Those intense falling in love feelings, those exciting tingling nerve exploding ones are so tangible at first. Then over time, they lessen as the relationship deepens. And every once in awhile they surge again to solidify the bond, but they never retain that initial energy. The relationship has moved into a different phase. A different dance.
He is your soft place, your legs of support on that stool.
Posted by Dinah on November 6, 2006, at 17:19:21
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session, posted by Jost on November 4, 2006, at 19:12:04
rofl.
Oh, Jost, you made me laugh.
The pdoc from h*ll... Well, my therapist says he's had some life changing experiences and has mellowed out quite a bit. Well, there was a lot of room for mellowing. It wasn't just me. My son's play therapist made it very clear she didn't like him either. He lost it with me, yelled at me, and when I started crying said he supposed I'd go home and hurt myself, because that's what I do. (Well, yes, but I started and was worst on the activating AD's he had me on.) I called him and fired him and told him NOBODY talked to me like that. But... I suppose a lot of people have had life changing experiences lately. At any rate, it was long enough ago now that I'm not afraid to run into him. I wouldn't go to him for medications if he was the last MD of any sort on the face of the earth. But I can say a polite hello, I suppose.
Wife's office? No way. I'm not totally clear about whether he meant actually in her office. That's certainly how it seemed. But she's not a therapist or even in the health care profession. It would be weird to the extreme to go to her office, possibly run in to her, and also be in an office that is geared towards something else entirely. I don't know what he's thinking. At one point, he knew I wouldn't like it. I won't even talk to him in the hall, I dislike mixing therapy with the outside world so much. He walks thirty or so steps ahead of me in absolute silence.
I'd far rather make the lengthy drive to an inconvenient old part of town where there is no offstreet parking depite the fact that I'm terrified of parallel parking - literally terrified. And run into my old nemesis.
That being said, we've met in some strange places. We've met in a temporary rent an office with generic furniture once. And at the home where someone took him in during the evacuation (he's ok with dogs and cats, which is nice to know). And at his office in Lafayette when I drove three hours to see him. And at a church. And once, when he urged me to come in despite a potential parking shortage so great that the city urged employers to let their workers go home early, I agreed only on the condition that he agreed to conduct therapy in my car if I couldn't find a place to park. (grin)
I've always told him that if he was there, it was fine. Which was a bit more true when I kept my eyes closed, but can still be true if he is himself.
I'm miffed about the extra driving time, and scared at the thought of parking. But if everything is ok, I'll do it without too much complaint.
The trouble is that I don't know if everything will ever be ok between us again. Maybe here and there, and I leap on those times. But...
Posted by Dinah on November 6, 2006, at 17:29:44
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 5, 2006, at 8:46:58
But in general I like that comfy old marriage feel. I might be upset because I'm not feeling that.
There was an increased level of intimacy in crisis. It wasn't always, or even usually, a good sort of intimacy, but it was intimacy. I didn't feel like his Tuesday at ten.
And now I generally do feel like his Tuesday at ten. He's withdrawn into therapist mode, which is good in some ways, but I miss his transparency. I miss the intimacy. I miss feeling special, even if it wasn't always special in a good way. I know intellectually that I'm special. I know that he keeps me in mind when he's making his plans. I know that he is far more open with me than he is with most of his clients.
But he's not reaching me at an emotional level most of the time. It would be easy enough to do, but it's not the sort of thing I can ask him to do. "Please tease me with affection, or get annoyed with me, or yell at me. But let me know I touch you somehow. Because when you're touched and react from an emotional level, I can respond on an emotional level. My emotional self isn't strong enough right now to initiate an emotional level interchange. And my rational self just doesn't need therapy - or you."
Posted by Fallsfall on November 7, 2006, at 8:46:50
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » annierose, posted by Dinah on November 6, 2006, at 17:29:44
Why can't you say that?
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 9:03:45
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Dinah, posted by Fallsfall on November 7, 2006, at 8:46:50
Because I'm not really entitled to that? I'm entitled to what he's giving me.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 12:14:38
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Fallsfall, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 9:03:45
Although I modified it to make it an acceptable request. I asked him if he could take a few moments to settle down and talk to me from his gut rather than his head. And that lately it seemed like all he did was talk from his head.
He admitted that was likely true, and attributed it to the fact that that was how I was presenting myelf. He was following his customary practice of addressing whoever showed up.
But today he made an effort to stay focused on emotions, and it was better.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 12:22:00
In reply to Re: Another cr*ppy session » Jost, posted by Dinah on November 6, 2006, at 17:19:21
Silly me didn't mention it until he was writing my receipt, and he understandably was brief. But he seemed to think I'd prefer to see him at his wife's office, and when I told him that I didn't think that was a good idea he was surprised and asked why.
It astonishes me that therapists don't grasp what's easily evident to clients. Since time was short, I just told him that an informal poll had convinced me that it wasn't a good idea, colliding of worlds and all, then I trailed off.
I daresay it will be discussed sooner rather than later since it could happen as early as the beginning of December.
Why doesn't he grasp the easy concept that the therapy office should remain pure? And that he should remain a therapist in his office, and be a husband at home, where spouseship should be? And that passing in the hall, he might find it difficult to avoid being a husband?
Posted by Fallsfall on November 8, 2006, at 7:28:11
In reply to Ok, I did, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 12:14:38
Posted by Jost on November 8, 2006, at 10:29:52
In reply to Partial followup on move, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 12:22:00
Maybe it makes him feel bad, conflicting loyalties, odd types of guilt going in different directions--
but he'll get it.
by the way, you are so entitled to whatever relationship you developed-- it's not as if all you're entitled to can be described with a list of therapeutic interventions.
You're not entitled to having him do certain things outside of your time-- but to an intimate relationship?-- I mean, if he's decided he doesn't want that any more-- I guess you're not per se entitled to it-- if my SigO decided he wanted to break up, I wouldn't be entitled to insist that he stay-- I mean I could get mad and all-- but ultimately it's his right to leave (d*mn well better not, though--cause I'd be awfully upset).
But other than that-- you are so. cause if he didn't want you to rely on that as part of how it was, he should have kept his limits clearer.
Not that you can't renegotiate the relationship-- but well entitled always slants the discussion-- you certainly have a reason to expect it-- and be very disturbed if it changes in ways that leave you feeling alone. At least IMO. I do admire your ability to believe you should hew to the rules, though.
(I got no sleep last night, so if capital letters are missing sometimes, I"m a bit too drained to fix it, sorry.)
Jost
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 12:39:54
In reply to Re: Partial followup on move, posted by Jost on November 8, 2006, at 10:29:52
But that's part of our relationship. It may not sound like it from my Babble posts, but in *some* ways I'm very careful and aware of the boundaries.
The physical ones aren't really an issue. Phone calls and stuff like that.
But the emotional ones I'm very aware of at all times. While I might occasionally slip, and while I most definitely ask open ended question that he can answer in as much detail as he likes, I'm inordinately careful to separate my therapist and the person behind my therapist and to never ever intrude.
That's part of the relationship.
Of course, it's also part of me and my background. And my therapist says I take it to extremes. But...
I really don't understand why he is so overwhelmingly positive that I wouldn't want to see him at his regular office where his furniture and stuff will be. He's so very certain of it that I get the impression that he doesn't want me there for some reason. Maybe something to do with the pdoc from h*ll. I really need to ask.
Posted by Jost on November 8, 2006, at 19:10:39
In reply to Re: Partial followup on move » Jost, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 12:39:54
Do you think you separated them (the therapist and the person) less at certain points in the past?
I know you've said things like that-- ie about distance, maybe--but I (now, at least) have a hard time separating those things-- with my therapist-- or wanting to.
It might be that I don't have the freedom to-- and that I did before. I never asked about my therapists' lives before a certain point (the therapist before this one was that point). I 'm not sure why everything changed so much then.
I"m careful about certain boundaries-- in time and space-- maybe not as careful as you are-- certainly-- but on the emotional level or the more metaphysical level, I tend to have a hard time locating them.
It varies. I'm careful about certain things-- extremely-- but then not about others-- -- so I'm respectful, I hope-- maybe not enough-- I tend to be a bit of a rampaging bull, not necessarily in a good way, but maybe not always in a bad way-- but I have serious limits, in what I'd say, or ask-- unless I"m under terrible stress-- in which case, maybe a lot of things might happen, that aren't necessarily so good--
But I don't separate my therapists real self from his working self- that much. I feel as if the emotional connection can be a lot of things-- and the limits aren't clear-- although you have to pay attention to them, when they fly up at you, which can be frightening-- and dislocating, and also hard to understand. But maybe it's that everything for a long time has seemed so at the edge-- so hard to hold onto (for me).
It's important to create the emotional space you need, though-- if you can find or imagine it-- or find the other person in it-- not that it's usually as refined as that--
I can relate to what you're saying-- although I can't quite place it-- for myself-- maybe because it's me as a person I can hardly remember-- before a certain time--
But maybe for you, it feels as if it is a way to nurture something by not interrupting it with being concerned too much with the real person-- allowing someone to be more available as an imaginative object - bracketing certain things, so as to keep them from interfering with the growth of other things--
I'm not sure. guess this isn't very helpful. I'm just in a rambling mood. Maybe sleep and being alone for a week. or some mood I'm in, for some reason.
Jost
Posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:35:26
In reply to Partial followup on move, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2006, at 12:22:00
He should get it, he does seem obvious to us therapy clients that the two worlds should not collide.
I'm glad you were able to tell him what you need. I'll need to try that myself. Good job!
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 21:51:57
In reply to Re: Partial followup on move » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 8, 2006, at 20:35:26
When we discuss the move in other than the last minute or two before I left.
You'll let me know how it goes with yours?
I'm expecting a bad session, actually. Good session last time = bad session this time. Or at least that seems to be the equation. :( I'd like to get to a three to two ratio. Seems like a reasonable goal?
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2006, at 22:03:07
In reply to Re: Partial followup on move, posted by Jost on November 8, 2006, at 19:10:39
You need to get some sleep!
Not because your posts are in any way lacking, but just for your own health.
I think there may be two contributors to my internal boundaries.
One is that I am aware that to some extent my therapist is someone I've partially built on top of the foundation of what he presents to me. And also that he is a flawed human being who presents to me in the therapy room the best side of him. That's a rotten thing to say, but it's probably true. Therapist-moms are bound to be better than real ones. They have nowhere near as much invested, they only see you an hour at a time. (My ever so diplomatic therapist says you can stand anything for an hour at a time.) They can be patient and accepting and they won't yell at you not to leave your clothes on the floor.
I separate the therapist him from the real him, and keep strict boundaries, partly for my own good. I don't delve into who he really is, because I might find out things I don't wish to know.
But probably the greater reason that I keep boundaries up with everyone is that my mother is the classic space invader. I spent my entire life watching people nervously back away as she entered what is generally considered to be personal space. She is completely oblivious. I grew up in terror of being intrusive. My therapist says that terror makes me seem aloof and uncaring, and that I draw the boundaries too far on the other side. But overall it seems the lesser evil than missing the boundary and intruding.
This doesn't mean I don't remember every single morsel of information he has disclosed about himself over the years. :)
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.