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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wishingstar on September 14, 2006, at 22:20:32
I remember that someone on here refers to their pdoc as dr clueless.. well, can Anne be dr clueless #2? She isnt a doctor (shes an LCSW) but thats okay. Just kidding.
As most of you know, I called and left her a message on Monday. Then ran into her at the health food store later that day. She said she'd call me the next day (which would have been tuesday). I still havent heard from her. From past experiences, she knows how sensitive I am to her not returning phone calls, especially when she says she'll do it at a certain time.
I actually do not have another appt yet, to answer your question Dinah. I was supposed to have one this wed (yesterday) but had to cancel it since I'm in partial during that time. The message on Monday was to cancel that and reschedule for next week. So basically, I'm in crisis mode, have no appt set up with her, and she wont call me back. Great. I dont know how she could have forgotten. I left her a message on her voicemail and saw her at the store both on the same day. At the store, I wrote and signed a release form for her that she took with her, so unless she believes it dropped out of the sky, she remembers seeing me. And last, that paper was a release for her to talk to Laurie, and I heard from Laurie today that Anne left her a message on her machine.
llrrpp, your suggestion in the thread above (that maybe she is feeling like shes failing and is staying away for that reason) is very possible. It hadnt crossed my mind and honestly, makes me feel a little better. Not that I want her to feel like a failure, but right now all I can think is that she hates me and doesnt care. If she felt like she wasnt helping me the way she wants to, at least she'd care. I wonder if it's true. Also, thank you for saying it doesnt make ME a bad person. I was repeating that to myself over and over tonight. Anne not calling me back when she knows how important it is to me is HER issue, and it isnt my fault. Thats what I'm telling myself. But it still hurts quite a bit. I'm a little afraid she is gearing up to drop me as a client. Maybe waiting to talk to Laurie before dropping me or something, and figures there's no reason to get me worked up before that? I dont know.
Like I mentioned in the thread above about my day in partial, Randy (the coordinator) called her today to leave a message and is going to get in contact with her soon. I told him that I think she hates me and I dont understand it. He's going to try to figure out what's going on. I hope it helps.
So here's my question for you all. Tomorrow morning I am going to call her and leave a message. She doesnt work on Fridays, so I assume she just wont call until Monday.. unless eh calls from home. What should I say? I want her to know I'm angry and hurt. I'm tempted to say something like "hi, my name is amanda, you may not remember me, but im the client who freaks out when you dont call me back" and be real bratty about it. I've also thought about something like "i know im overly sensitive to issues like this, and maybe youre trying to teach me not to be or something, but i could really use some sensitivity from you right now". I dont think it'll be a very nice message either way. Or should I wait until after Randy talks to her? I imagine shell call after that happens, but who knows. I sort of want to leave my message and get my anger out there before they talk, just to make sure she gets it. Advice? What do you think I should do?
Posted by MidnightBlue on September 15, 2006, at 0:30:06
In reply to dr clueless #2 (anne), posted by wishingstar on September 14, 2006, at 22:20:32
I'd wait until Randy talks to her. Sounds like you are doing good and trying hard. I'm proud of you.
MB
Posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 10:31:32
In reply to Re: dr clueless #2 (anne) » wishingstar, posted by MidnightBlue on September 15, 2006, at 0:30:06
After feeling like I was going to be sick worrying/thinking about her all morning, I finally decided.. forget it, I'm not going to let her have this control over me. So I called and left a message. I dont know she's talked to Randy yet or not.
I said something like this. "Hi Anne, this is Amanda. I'm not really sure why I'm calling you.. perhaps a little touch of masochism going on here. But I thought you were going to call me on Tues, and now its Friday. So I'm not sure what's going on. You know how I feel about these things (which is incredibly sensitive, etc). I know Randy was going to give you a call so i dont know if you talked to him or not, but I just wanted to know what was going on." and gave her my availability today and Monday to call.
It really does feel like I'm being masochistic here. Yesterday in partial we talked about "learning the same lessons over and over" during recovery. And thats exactly what this feels like.
We'll see if she calls back. I'm trying hard not to expect anything, but of course, part of me does.
Posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 12:53:00
In reply to nevermind this... i called her, posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 10:31:32
I talked to Anne. She called me back. She said she didnt remember saying that and she apologized a couple times. She said she'd talked to Randy, the director of partial, and that him and I were going to talk on Monday about what I want to do with therapy since her and I have been up and down for awhile. She kept saying "well just wait and talk to randy.." and I finally said I felt like I was being set up for something that they were in on and I wasnt. Her response was that she just doesnt think theres any way she can make me trust her.
It didnt hit me at the moment, but 5 minutes later it did. I know what I'm being set up for. Being dropped. She doesnt know what to do with me and she's getting rid of me, but Randy is doing the dirty work of convicing me it's the right thing to do so it feels like partially my decision, rather than her just forcing the seperation.
I'm not tricked.
I called her back, left another message. Asked if that is what's happening. Told her I'd really, really rather hear it from her than from Randy if that is the case.
I thought some more and 5 min later called back a third time today. I'm sure she loves me for that. Told her, through tears, that I made my decision and I'm not coming back. The tears havent stopped since. I know what I'm being set up for it and it's just the best if I dont come back. I always end my phone messages with "talk to you later" and I said that automativcally, then added an "or not" on the end.
I know that is whats coming whether I wait until Monday or accept it now. She said on the phone today that she doesnt hate me, but I think she does. She doesnt know what to do with me. So it's over. I wont see her anymore.
I called Laurie and told her that I'm not seeing anne anymore and that I'd call her later next week to maybe schedule with her (laurie) again. Or maybe I'll get a new person althogether. Or maybe I'll jump off a bridge. (Not a genuine threat, but it's very much what I want to do).
This is so, so hard. I told Randy... if I could quit therapy with anne in a way that made me feel like she didnt hate me, not in a way that feels like this... so painful.. it'd be so much easier. I can accept that our styles arent the same. But this is so, so hard. I just wanted her to be reliable and care about me. Why wouldnt she just do it?
Posted by Poet on September 15, 2006, at 13:42:41
In reply to and now I have no T, posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 12:53:00
Hi wishingstar,
Anne certainly seems clueless to me. I know I would want my T to just come out and tell me if she wanted to terminate. I think I could better handle one large psychic wound instead of many festering small ones. I can understand why you think she hates you: she doesn't seem to be very considerate of your feelings.
Are you comfortable talking to Laurie about the Anne situation? Are you okay talking to Laurie in general? For me it would be hard to start with someone new, so I'd be inclined to try Laurie before I start over. Though since you're in the day program, maybe you could start seeing someone affiliated with it? Maybe there is a T there that knows you from a group or could refer you to someone they think would be a good match?
I'm sorry for all the questions, I know your head is filled with them these days. I'm also sorry that Anne has caused you to feel so much hurt. It's okay to call her Clueless2 BTW, I'm the one who sees Dr. Clueless.
Take care.
Poet
Posted by Jost on September 15, 2006, at 14:26:46
In reply to and now I have no T, posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 12:53:00
Wishingstar,
After reading your sequence of posts about Anne, and also your relationship with her over the last few months, I feel that I can say that she doesn't hate you.
That's quite different from saying that she can help you, or that she has behaved particularly well as a T. I don't think it's because she's a bad person, or doesn't care.
I'm not quite sure why she's been delinquent and unreliable-- perhaps she isn't the most organized, or, well, reliable, or focused person. That doesn't make her bad-- but it does make her a much less than ideal therapist, esp. for you.
The real problem is that you don't trust her. Given who you are and who she is, you have solid reasons not to trust her. One can have reasons not to trust someone who cares about one-- because the person acts in ways that are not careful, or consistent enough, despite their caring.
Yet you transmute your not trusting her into her not caring about you. And you further explain that by thinking that you're not worth caring about. That is an incredibly painful thought.
But this way of thinking is backwards, and also not a true understanding.
What's going on isn't about caring, It's about being careful, emotionally reliable, emotionally present, and other things.
Anne, unfortunately, doesn't seem to possess these qualities in a terribly great d egree. She may be great with some people who don't need these things as much. She may be a fine person. However, these things that you need are things that many people need, and certainly deserve.
And if I could say anything, it would be that it doesn't matter whether she is about to "drop" you: By saying that, perhaps you're trying to make it easier to accept. Maybe, when you don't trust someone, it's easier to think that they're getting rid of you-- than that you must end things with them.
Then, that little bit of hope keeps cropping up-- and keeping you somewhere that isn't good for you.
So, it's about her not being a good T for you, despite your wish that she were and your connection to her, which is hard to give up. You're ending with her-- even though you feel that she's ending with you.
You're in a supportive environment now-- a place where there are people to help you through this very very painful transition. Randy and the others in the partial program.
And painful as it is, despite how hard it is, I hope you see this as a painful but important decision that You are making, for very good reasons. It's very sad, it's a great loss, but one that makes a better future possible.
Jost
PS I 'd like to see you get a new, better T in the place where you live, not hours away as Laurie is.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 15:57:41
In reply to Re: and now I have no T » wishingstar, posted by Jost on September 15, 2006, at 14:26:46
((((WishingStar))))
I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. I hope that you can use your sessions next week to make sense out of all of this. Please take care of yourself over the weekend. You are a very special Wishingstar to us, and we want you to find a T that is more sensitive to your needs. I think that Anne is out of her league with you. She probably feels that she cannot help you at the present time, and it really sounds like it's an Anne-Issue, not a Wishingstar-issue. I think she cares about you as a person, but she just doesn't have enough experience with this to help you make a smooth transition to another T. You need someone who can be there for you-- always. Someone like Randy, who is willing to make some phone calls and get things figured out. Wishingstar, you deserve only the finest, and Anne is not the finest. I'm sure she's a very nice person, especially since she shops at the healthfood store! She probably is fond of you too, as a person-- and frustrated with herself as a professional that she cannot help you more. I think it would probably be pretty disheartening to get a call from Randy wondering whether *my client* actually had a responsive therapist. I'm sorry that she's put YOU in such an uncomfortable position.
Please take good care of yourself this Weekend. All will be clear on Monday, if not sooner. Be in touch, okay?
-ll
Posted by wishingstar on September 15, 2006, at 22:33:54
In reply to Re: and now I have no T, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 15:57:41
thank you everyone. hurting quite a bit. trying hard to balance between feeling everything and shutting off completely, but its hard. i will respond to everyone tomorrow when ive processed it a little more. thank you so much for your support.
Posted by wishingstar on September 16, 2006, at 19:51:20
In reply to Re: and now I have no T, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 15:57:41
thank you for the hugs llrrrpp. I really need all the hugs I can get right now.
I'm trying very hard to believe this is an anne-issue, not a me-issue. Part of me believes it. I KNOW I'm a difficult client but I wouldnt be in therapy if I had it all together. That's why I'm there. She said "I dont know what else I can say to make you trust me".. and shes right, she cant force me to, but it's also her job to be reliable and figure out (with my help, of course) what the issue blocking the trust is. That's her JOB. It's not my fault. I mostly believe that.
It's weird because I once ran across an online ad for her, and she had written something about how one of her specialties is helping people heal from trauma.. and that she believes being thouroughly heard is one of the most important aspects of healing. Is that possibly the same Anne I know? She just doesnt have that sense of... of what? Warmth, caring, genuineness, that I really need. I just cant get past the "if only she would have"s.... for instance, why the heck was she not willing to check in with my regarding my suicidal/SI impulses every week or so? I told her it'd make me feel heard. My parents ignored it, and I needed to be POSITIVE she was hearing it. She wouldnt do it. I dont feel like asking her to do that for me would have forced her to sacrifice her style.
I'm honestly really afraid to talk to Randy on Monday about this. I feel like he's on her side now. (I havent even spoken to him so I have no reason to think that, but I just feel it).
Your interpretation of the situation, that she may be feeling frustrated with herself and that this is her issue, helps me a lot. It's so easy to see Ts (her anyway) as emotionless in all this, like everything bounces right off. I guess if I can believe she feels something about this now, I can believe she cares in some tiny way. Even though it doesnt matter anymore, since I wont be seeing her.
I'm feeling really hurt right now. Very jumbled. So I apologize if this seems a little crazy and difficult to read.
Posted by wishingstar on September 16, 2006, at 20:00:00
In reply to Re: and now I have no T » wishingstar, posted by Poet on September 15, 2006, at 13:42:41
I completely agree with what you said.. one large, intense hurt is much better for me that several small ones, over and over. I dont know for sure that she was setting me up to have randy do the hard work for her yet, but I just really have that feeling. All signs point to it. We talked about scheduling next week, and when I told her when I was available, she just kept saying hmm.. well lets just wait.. you can call me next week.. talk to randy first... yeah. Sounds suspicious to me. That isnt the only reason I think that though. Is she really that either insensitive or out of touch with my feelings that she thinks that'd be best? Or does she just not care and this is more comfortable for her? Why would she do this to me? Of course I dont think she cares. Of course.
I am comfortable talking to Laurie about this. In fact, her and I talked a lot over the summer about some of the things that had happened in the spring with Anne, so Laurie wouldnt be too shocked I dont think. I actually left a message for Laurie on Friday telling her I'd quit with Anne and I'd call her next week about maybe driving up to see her. It's just hard to commit to a 4 hour drive (2hrs each way) once a week.. but also hard to give Laurie up, since I trust her so much, she knows me so well.. it wouldnt be like starting over. But aside from her, yes there are Ts that she program could recommend to me.. several who are affiliated with the program and some who arent. Randy could choose a good one I'm sure, but I dont know. I hate the thought of starting over. I've done it so, so many times. I'm planning to talk to Randy about this on Monday. A big part of me just wants to say forget it and quit therapy, but being in partial right now, I dont think theyll let me go without a follow-up person.
Sorry for not remembering who it was who had Dr Clueless. I know I'd read it many times, but I just couldnt remember. Nothing personal. :)
Thanks for your thoughts. Obviously I do have a lot of questions.. hah. This just hurts. I mean, what's wrong with ME that this keeps happening? Nothing, I know.. but it sure feels like it.
Posted by wishingstar on September 16, 2006, at 20:09:20
In reply to Re: and now I have no T » wishingstar, posted by Jost on September 15, 2006, at 14:26:46
I think I do agree with you on some level. Anne probably does care to some degree, and wants to be able to help, but is really just clueless about how to do so. She has made a LOT of bad decisions I feel.
The thing that is so frustrating to me is that she doesnt understand why I dont trust her. She seems like she's at a loss for why I dont and for knowing what she could possibly do to make me trust her. Oh, I dont know.. how about being reliable, calling when you say you will, validating how I feel for once? Not trying to trace my pain about her not calling this week back to my family (transference to her) during the 15 min phone call the other day? Doesnt she understand that part of this IS about her? I said that I think I'd have been upset even if I didnt grow up the way I did. I dont know if she believed that or not.
I guess to me, caring IS being reliable, emotionally present, etc. There are other things involved too of course, but those are key for me. Maybe that is skewed thinking, I dont know.
I have to say though, I truly do believe we were on the last leg of our relationship. From several things she said on the phone yesterday, it was very obvious to me that she wasnt sure I'd be coming back. We were on a 4 week trial period anyway, before she referred me off/I quit/etc, so it wasnt out of the blue. But you are right, it's easier to leave someone then have them leave you. That's why I did it on Friday. I truly dont believe I'm the one making the majority of the decision here - I mean yes, I did call and end it on Friday. So in theory, today she could still be my T if I hadnt done that. But next week, she wont be even if I hadnt called Friday. There was definitely some self protection in there (end it before she does) but I'm not sure I had a huge choice in whether it ended soon or not. Maybe I'm just too deep into it to see it otherwise, but in the end, she has as much of a say as I do in this situation. If she wont see me, she wont see me. But regardless of all that, regardless of the reason I'm not going back, I do know somewhere in me that it's a good thing. She wasnt helping me.
I wrote some about Laurie versus a new T in my response above to Poet. It's a big dilemma for me right now. I'm going to try to talk to Randy about it on Monday.
Thanks for your ideas.. definitely something to think about.
Posted by Jost on September 16, 2006, at 21:42:14
In reply to Re: and now I have no T » Jost, posted by wishingstar on September 16, 2006, at 20:09:20
Hi, Wishingstar.
Actually, I was saying the opposite, that it's easier sometimes to have someone leave you than to leave them.
I didn't mean that, as things have unfolded, Anne isn't considering, or hasn't decided that it's best to terminate with you..
What I meant is, that all that you say about her really leads to the conclusion that, at some deep level, perhaps a level you find hard to recognize consistently, yourself, you don't want to work with her.
Over these months, you've let her know fairly often how disappointed in her you are, and in what ways ways . You've said you don't trust her. That she's let you down.
When a patient says these things frequently, there are two possiblities. (That occur to me, anyway.) One is that there's a strong enough connection, and a good enough fit, to ride the lack of trust through, and to come out on the other side, with a stronger, more solid connection on both sides, but esp. for the patient.
The other is that the therapist and patient are not well matched, and that, despite how much either wants it to work, the connection can't weather the storm of these mutual missings.
This can happen despite caring on the therapist's part. You say that caring for you requires reliability and emotional presence. Those are extremely good and important qualities. But--people can care, despite lacking the ability to be reliable, or to be emotionally present enough of the time. They may care deeply, but simply be unable to act on the caring in the way the other person needs. This may feel like lack of "real" caring-- and maybe it is-- but that way of putting it doesn't seem true to me. --Unfortunately, people can care, and not be able to reach us, or reach us in the right way.
They can be unintentionally hurtful-- or hurtful as a way of dealing with their own pain, or disappointment-- or simply not quite the person who can strike that chord that one needs.
I'm not saying this is the case with Anne. Nor do I know for a certainty that she cares about you--although I believe she that she does. People tend to care about others whom they spend time with-- and esp. therapists, who go into that line of work at least partly because they care and want to help. I'm not saying that all care--of course-- But I do strongly suspect she cares about you, although perhaps she's hurt, or discouraged, or feels that she's not the right therapist for you-- or even is angry, or frustrated-- at how things have gone.
Therapists can be angry or frustrated even if they care. Of course, it's hard to feel that, or believe it-- esp. when it's happening.
You;re angry at Anne, and feel rejected by her; you experience the (imagined, so far) end of the relationship as her choice.
But iis it her choice? or isn't it really something that you yourself have been thinking about?
Yes, you do think about it because you believe, unfortunately, that if you were good enough--she would do the things that you need-- or it would work out. But that isn't how it works, in life. She's who she is-- you need what you need. If you need a therapist who checks in about SI often-- and Anne doesn't feel comfortable, or remember, to do that-- that's who Anne is-- and yet you need (and deserve) what you need.
Would you need every therapist to do that? Not necessarily-- perhaps another therapist would do other things that would make you feel secure, and more able to bring the SI up. Some therapists, however, would also feel able to do it.
Isn't it possible, even if she does mean to end, that she's hearing something that you've been saying for quite a while? That she realizes that she isn't helping you enough, that she may not have the qualities, or temperament, necessary to be the good-enough, reliable, emotionally responsive therapist that you need?
If this doens't sound right or true to you, then I may be wrong. And in any event, I hope you are feeling better, and stronger, as time goes on.
Jost
Posted by muffled on September 18, 2006, at 11:27:03
In reply to Re: and now I have no T » Jost, posted by wishingstar on September 16, 2006, at 20:09:20
Hope you can find a good T Wishingstar.
Anne sound kinda awful.
No wonder you didn't trust her.
I wouldn't either.
Still hard :-(
Sigh.
Thanks for posting bout the program you are in, it was very interesting to me to read about it.
Take care,
Muffled
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