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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 32 to 56 of 56. Go back in thread:
Posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:35:23
In reply to can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by ElaineM on June 16, 2006, at 9:41:38
I haven't read this whole thread yet but if what you say is true then you definitely have to tell another professional about how you're feeling within this relationship with your therapist, and that person can help you come to terms with whatever will need to be done. Perhaps your therapist also needs help, and if you are both getting it then you won't have to lose him. But if you don't talk to someone else about this, you will be badly hurt, in the end. No doubt, there's no doubt about it. Yes, mean think about sex a lot. Yes, most men will jump your bones if you give them the chance. Yes, they will feel badly for it afterwards. Yes, they may even continue to make you feel good. No, their profession doesn't always make them good people to trust. Yes, you're protecting yourself by coming here.
Posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:55:15
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
You're not worrying for nothing. I believe you referred to him touching you and saying romantic things. Your worry is reality-based, if he's touching you .. what are the things he's saying, how and when is he touching you?
You've been yelled at and hit before by a man you loved and trusted ... but that doesn't mean they all will do that to you. And that doesn't mean you should love and trust every man just because he's a man. Your safety lies in your own soul, in your own being and knowing-ness ... no man will ever give that to you, in fact, many men will take that away from you. Don't let this one do that.
Posted by Fall Girl on June 18, 2006, at 22:21:00
In reply to Re: keep this a secret? FallGirl, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:21:07
Oh to have the words for all that your post makes me think and feel. You are precious and attached to your T (as most of us are) by profound threads of transference from maybe even a pre-language age. From your vantage point it can be very difficult to be pro-active about such a bond. It is very much like being that defenseless child with its parent. Try to remember that you ARE an adult and that you do not have to 'go with however he chooses to proceed'. You have a voice.
It's also been my experience that getting in with a new T. can happen rather quickly, particularly if you let them know that you have concerns about what is happening with your current T. I don't know where you see this man; private practice or what, but you could contact a local university. At the university I attend, there is a psychological services center available for the community as well as students. I once had a concern about my T. and they saw me the next day (I didn't even tell them I was a student).
I have to disagree with you about one thing: "...I could never picture him doing anything so unkind." He IS doing something so unkind to you, it just isn't as obvious as hitting. He has taken advantage of your transference to him, your trust in him, your vulnerability, and has stopped providing therapy. He's broken the oath he took to do no harm.
All that I say, I say out of a feeling of sisterhood with you, and from wanting the best for you. I don't wish to judge you! FG
Posted by Karolina on June 18, 2006, at 23:15:40
In reply to Karolina, posted by ElaineM on June 18, 2006, at 10:07:40
Hey Elaine.
I hope I didn’t sound like a hypocrite in my post for saying that I agreed with the others about getting some guidance on the side from a female T. I agree that we have many of the same feelings towards our Ts and kind of similar situations, except that your T has seemed to really cross some major boundaries. Yes, my T has given me compliments, stared at my chest and legs, e-mails with me pretty frequently, has given me an extra-long hug, etc –BUT- he has never turned things around to where I have ended up giving him advice about his own issues, he doesn’t routinely touch me and tell me how it makes him feel, or has never asked to see me outside of appointments.
All of those boundaries can be so confusing and there are such fine lines that can be easily crossed. It just sounds like your T is really pushing things too far, and for all I know, I could be facing some of this with my T one day myself, but it worries me that you are scared about what’s going on and that he seems to be moving so fast. I remember you saying that you’ve been seeing him for almost 2 years, but did his touching and suggestions to get together, etc just all of the sudden come up, or has it kind of been a gradual thing? Do you know if he’s married or not? Sorry if I seem to be asking too many questions. And I hope my post isn’t offensive, I just think your T’s behavior is beginning to sound dangerous. Maybe not so much in an aggressive or threatening way, but in a way that could end up emotionally hurting or damaging you.
Since I’m in the situation too, of liking my T and having so many intense feelings for him, I can imagine how overwhelming all of this probably is for you. If my T started giving me more attention like that, like inviting me places or coming on to me sexually, I would have a very hard time saying no. I know I would. I’ve actually thought a lot lately about that type of thing happening, but you know what, anytime after I’m done fantasizing about something happening between me and him, I always get this empty sick feeling inside, I start to think about how I’d leave the appointment and then he’d go home to his wife, and I would go home to…nobody. So that tells me something. if I even have doubts or bad afterthoughts when I’ve *fantasized* about something happening, then I *know* I’d end up feeling hurt afterwards in a real situation. I don’t really know where I’m going with this but I do know that dealing with these types of feelings is very, very hard and confusing. I’m very glad that I was able to help you feel like you could open up and talk about this issue and I hope you will continue to feel safe enough to talk about it, because we are definitely here for you and will listen. Please take care,
-Karolina-
Posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 15:22:54
In reply to Re: can professionals keep this a secret?, posted by susan47 on June 18, 2006, at 21:35:23
Susan: I know, it should be untrue. It doesn't make sense to me either, that he would choose me to treat differently. He's such an organized, intelligent, mature man with a really nice life (at least as much as I've seen). It's unbelievable to think that he would want to be around someone so screwed-up any more than he had to. It's not like I'm even pretty.
That's why I question myself so much, and am so afraid to tell my doctor, or another T. I can't believe it myself so why would anyone else? Here I am worried that my doc wouldn't keep it between the two of us, when she probably wouldn't even believe me in the first place. It's not like I can prove anything. It'd be a T-said vs. messed-up-she-said thing.
If I pushed myself to say something and had it doubted by her then I'd die. I couldn't take it. I'd lose my mind. Though if I had to choose I'd rather feel like crap myself than get him in trouble.
Thanks for showing concern. Though I kind of think that I'm just getting more and more scared by trying to figure this out.
El
Posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 16:02:19
In reply to Re: Karolina » ElaineM, posted by Karolina on June 18, 2006, at 23:15:40
All: I saw my T today and I told him that I had to cancel my next appointment. Just one though. I'll be seeing my doctor this week for a pre-scheduled appointment and I thought that if I saw him right before that I'd be too nervous, and feel too guilty, to even mention the problem even in the smallest way. He was really sad. I've only tried to cancel once before. It was the session right after the first time he gave me a present and I freaked out. It's kind of dumb now that I think back but it made me really confused. I sort of thought that I'd have to give him something in return. (I kind of did, though something small. It was the only time I've ever asked if he wanted me to hug him back.) He was sad then too and kept saying how important it was for me to be there, and to please try really hard because he misses me when I'm not there. He said a version of the same this time and kept saying that we could meet somewhere else instead, closer to my home, or at a later time in the day. I kept saying that it wouldn't be possible and that I wouldn't want him to rearrange his day incase I was late or there was a problem.
I feel so guilty. Now I get to add Liar to my diagnosis. And I'm so nervous about my doctor. She has no idea at all that I'm going to burden her with this. It will be so out of the blue. I only started thinking of maybe telling her last week, when I knew this appointment was already coming up.
I'm so two-faced. I saw him for a little bit on Father's Day (but I bailed on the boat idea) and he even gave me a flower. It was only one but I still took it! And I said Thankyou and smiled and let him hug me (or hugged him, I don't know). Then today he kept touching my face and it was driving me crazy. I told him before that touching my face makes me feel uncomfortable (it does more than other parts of me) but I think he forgot. I only said it twice maybe. The more I write on here, the worse I am at being okay with his closeness. Even the stuff that is benign. But there is a big part of me that wants to cry and fight to keep him even closer. I hate myself.
I don't know if I can do this. I already feel like I'm going to be sick. I'm going to burst out of myself being this afraid. In the end I always cave. I hope I don't go see him before, but I might not be able to help it.
Elaine
Sorry I haven't got around to responding much. But thank you for your input, Falls, Tofu, Racer. (hoping you read this)
Posted by Tamar on June 19, 2006, at 16:54:25
In reply to I saw him, posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 16:02:19
Elaine,
You’re a very courageous woman. You’re handling this really well. It isn’t easy at all.
I think it was a very good idea to cancel your next appointment.
I hope you won’t mind if I highlight a few more examples of his inappropriate behaviour. I’m not doing it to criticise him or you, but because I suspect you may be wondering if those things are inappropriate. And if so, I want to confirm it for you.
1. He should not have given you a present. Giving presents can lead the client to expect more from the relationship than the therapist can legitimately give.
2. He should not try to guilt-trip you into keeping appointments. That kind of behaviour is essentially emotional manipulation and should not be used on vulnerable clients.
3. He should never say he misses you when you’re not there, and especially not as a way to try to get you to come to your appointment. Disclosing his feelings in this way can lead you to believe that your purpose in the relationship is to gratify his feelings and meet his needs. That is not how things should be.
4. He should not have touched your face. Intimate touch in therapy is frowned upon by most therapists, and is particularly dangerous with clients who have experienced abuse. Touching can have multiple meanings to the client, many of which the therapist will have no idea of, since he can’t know absolutely everything about you. Touching your face could be frightening or intimidating for you. It is highly unprofessional of him to assume that he can touch you without any ill-effects.
5. If you have told him you don’t like having your face touched, he should have made a special effort to remember that. To be honest, that part of the situation makes me *extremely* uneasy. Perhaps he did forget… or perhaps he was trying to manipulate your emotions. Given his inability to stick to appropriate boundaries, I can’t assume his motivation was pure. But that’s just me.
> I feel so guilty. Now I get to add Liar to my diagnosis.
You are not a liar. It really *isn’t* possible for you to be there. It’s emotionally impossible, rather than logistically, impossible, but it’s still impossible.
> And I'm so nervous about my doctor. She has no idea at all that I'm going to burden her with this. It will be so out of the blue. I only started thinking of maybe telling her last week, when I knew this appointment was already coming up.
I think telling your doctor is an excellent idea.
> The more I write on here, the worse I am at being okay with his closeness. Even the stuff that is benign.
I don’t think any of what you’ve described is benign. Much of it is actually very dangerous.
> But there is a big part of me that wants to cry and fight to keep him even closer. I hate myself.
Maybe… maybe what you want is a feeling of closeness and a feeling of being loved. And I have no doubt that you are loveable and there are people in the world who will be able to hold you close and make you feel safe. But he is not one of those people. Your therapist cannot do that for you. He is one of the few people in this world who absolutely cannot make you feel loved in that particular way. His job is to help you explore ways of finding that kind of love and safety *outside* therapy.
At the moment it seems he’s trying to give you the love and safety you crave. But it comes at the cost of your therapy. He is not doing therapy with you. In fact, he has damaged the therapeutic relationship very badly. And I don’t think he can do this forever. I don’t think he can continue to have a non-therapeutic relationship with you forever.
> I don't know if I can do this. I already feel like I'm going to be sick. I'm going to burst out of myself being this afraid. In the end I always cave. I hope I don't go see him before, but I might not be able to help it.
If you feel yourself wavering, post at Babble. We will help! You do not need to cave. You have already shown so much courage. You can do this. We’ll be thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by orchid on June 19, 2006, at 19:31:26
In reply to I saw him, posted by ElaineM on June 19, 2006, at 16:02:19
Your T sounds very highly manipulative, and you sound very genuine and nice. You are not doing anything wrong, he is doing everything wrong.
You deserve much better, and he deserves to learn better boundaries.
For your sake and for his sake too, talk to your doctor. For all you know, if you let him continue with this manipulative behaviour, it will end up costing him a very enormous price, and will end up costing you the same too.
I really am not against personal relationship with T, after the therapy is over and after a good amount of time has elapsed, but manipulating a current client and doing all this touch etc is STRICTLY NOT OK.
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 7:42:20
In reply to Re: I saw him » ElaineM, posted by orchid on June 19, 2006, at 19:31:26
I'm so nervous about the appointment tomorrow. And really sad at the same time. I have the hugest butterflies in my stomach, and I find that I get even more scared the minute I stop reading everyone's advice over and over again. Like it erases if I'm not burning it into my head. I have so much nervous energy I feel like I could climb the wall. It's making my skin crawl. I'm up so early, I couldn't even sleep. I'll probably try to go somewhere today and distract myself. Today is going to feel like both the shortest and longest day ever. I'm such a loser, I hope I can at least try and do this. It'll probably be fine, right. I'm so scared! I'll let you know if it goes okay.
El
(Tamar, thanks for your post above. It sounds different when all that stuff is collected together and in a list.)
Posted by B2chica on June 20, 2006, at 8:58:14
In reply to Tomorrow, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 7:42:20
Hi Elaine.
I couldn't have said it any better than what Tamar stated above. she did a great job.
all i want to add is that i too believe you are a very strong person and inside you know that what you are doing is right.
and no matter what remember that we are here for you. No MATTER WHAT! we are here.
if you start to get scared. imagine us here all lined up holding hands behind you, we've got you covered.
you can do it.
please take care of yourself, and maybe after you talk with your doctor, plan to treat yourself to something like icecream or a movie that you've been wanting to see. cuz no matter what her response will be you will have done a very Very important thing.you will be fine Elaine.
(((((((((((E)))))))))))))))
b2c.
Posted by muffled on June 20, 2006, at 9:28:22
In reply to Tomorrow, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 7:42:20
Nice to meet you.
Please do mention this situation to your Dr.
So he won't do this to others either.
You seem like a real nice person.
Mebbe you could print out some posts to read at her office?
And even hold in your hand?
Or fling them at her?
I will hold hands w/B2chica and send vibes of support your way too.
Take care,
Muffled
Posted by gardenergirl on June 20, 2006, at 9:56:21
In reply to Re: I saw him » ElaineM, posted by Tamar on June 19, 2006, at 16:54:25
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 13:58:18
In reply to Re: Tomorrow, posted by B2chica on June 20, 2006, at 8:58:14
Thanks b2c, it makes me feel a bit pathetic to find the words of people I don't know at all my only source of support, but I don't have anywhere else to turn yet. I'm exhausted.
El
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 14:06:31
In reply to You can do it!! » ElaineM, posted by muffled on June 20, 2006, at 9:28:22
Nice to meet you too. I know I'll at least try my best. I think. Actually I have already printed out Tamar's post, not to read to my doc, more for myself. But I did write down some seperate stuff I may say tomorrow, because I tend to forget alot and have problems making sentences when my anxiety levels explode. Thanks for your "vibes" Muffled.
El
Posted by AuntieMel on June 20, 2006, at 16:50:00
In reply to Tomorrow, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 7:42:20
Print out a bunch of this thread (and Tamar's post) and take it with you to the doctor. It will give you something to refer to or to let her read if you get tongue-tied.
Don't be afraid! All that Tamar and the others have said is true. Trust your instincts.
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 20:57:17
In reply to Re:Print it out » ElaineM, posted by AuntieMel on June 20, 2006, at 16:50:00
I don't know why I'm posting really, I've said it all. I'm just so antsy tonight and don't know what to do with myself. Today was really difficult. He talked to me on the phone today and I've never felt so low. He's told me before when he's talking to me that he trusts me. No one else has ever said that to me. I just keep thinking of that over and over. I feel so guilty, and I haven't even said anything yet. I'm afraid how miserable I might be tomorrow. He's the one I would normally turn to if I felt unsafe!
The hardest part is that when I'm apart from him, my distress about how awkward things are starts to fade away. And then I start to convince myself that it's not so bad, I wasn't too nervous, I'm never that scared. I guess I'm just having a really hard time wondering if it is worth it. This is one of the scariest things I've ever tried to do. I mean, I'm still gonna try, I just can't stand being so hurtful to another person.
I don't know. I'm just rambling now. I'm scared. I'm sorry. I waiver less when I'm typing. And I'll do anything to get out of my own head now. It will be hard to sleep tonight.
El
Posted by annierose on June 20, 2006, at 21:30:07
In reply to scared blabbing, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 20:57:17
A good relationship wouldn't "feel" so bad. Be it a mother/child or boyfriend/girlfriend or friend/friend or therapist/client --- healthly relationships do have ebbs and flows, that's to be expected. But overall, a happy working relationship makes both people feel good when they are together, not scared or frightened. Your instincts are kicking it, they are waving the RED flag. Trust them.
He is a manipulator. He knows all the tricks.
I hope you bring in Tamar's post tomorrow as well as your own. It can help you when the words won't come out.
You are so strong. You can do this. We are your cheering section!!! Take us with you too. I'll be thinking of you.
Posted by llrrrpp on June 20, 2006, at 22:15:16
In reply to Re: scared blabbing » ElaineM, posted by annierose on June 20, 2006, at 21:30:07
You can do this Elaine,
It's going to be a challenge, but it's one you're up for. You are strong enough to know what's right and what's not right. You know what you need to do to turn the ship around before it crashes. You're in a very difficult spot, and you're struggling, but that makes you brave. You're nervousness is completely natural, given this situation. You will feel relief when you can share this burden with someone. It might shock them, it might be uncomfortable, but then it's done. You've turned the wheel of a big ship. Even though it might seem like the ship is still heading for disaster, you've already changed it's course ever so slightly, just by acknowledging that the situation is unnatural and unhealthy. Keep on turning the wheel. Every step you make will help you avoid the crash. Print out your lines. Say them aloud tomorrow in the morning. breath deeply. Don't be afraid to take your time. It will be okay. You're so brave. I know you can do this. I'm rooting for you Elaine! You're going to get through this.
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 22:16:59
In reply to Re: scared blabbing » ElaineM, posted by annierose on June 20, 2006, at 21:30:07
Thanks Annierose, I have a print out of Tamar's I could bring. This is so dumb, I want to take something from as many of you as possible, cause then when I look at my sheets tomorrow it will feel like alot of people are on my side. That's so silly! And I also read the posts to remind me to be scared when I start to re-interpret stuff.
I'm very sad. I don't want to lose him. I really don't, I just want someone to help me learn how to handle this better, and what to say to him in certain situations. Cause I want to keep the good stuff. It doesn't come from anywhere else but him, and I don't think I can survive my own despair, and mental and medical issues alone. I just want my doctor to help me.
Thank you for your encouragement. I value everyone's. I have never felt so accepted talking about therapy and mental illness stuff. I really hope this goes okay. It has to.
El
Posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 22:19:40
In reply to scared blabbing, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 20:57:17
I'm sorry I haven't posted to this thread so far. I'm afraid I identified a bit closely with you, and that made me afraid I wouldn't know what to write.
But I'm lending you what strength I can, and hope tomorrow works out well.
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 22:36:40
In reply to Re: scared blabbing, posted by llrrrpp on June 20, 2006, at 22:15:16
llrrrpp: I've been thinking of how you were doing. It means alot that you keep saying I'm doing the right thing, and that my feelings are natural. I always feel so far from normal that I never think I even deserve to be around other people. I usually only hear positive things from him (and my old T). I haven't spoken of my mental/medical diagnosis', but my family has kind of turned away because of it. I filled that hole with him.
Even while reading your kind words I'm still really scared and sad. But it's been helpful in keeping me from changing my mind while being terrified at the same time. This is the most un-waivering I've ever been about something so important. I don't want to let everyone down. I'm go grateful to you all.
El
Posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 22:45:59
In reply to Re: scared blabbing » ElaineM, posted by Dinah on June 20, 2006, at 22:19:40
Dinah: I don't know much about you and your T, but I can see that you're working through T problems too, so I can understand what you mean about just not knowing what to say. Thanks for your support.
El
Posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 4:25:38
In reply to Re: scared blabbing » Dinah, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 22:45:59
I'll be thinking of you today. I hope you get everything you need from your appointment with your doctor.
If you feel scared, remember that we're all rooting for you. Even though we can't go with you in person to the doctor, we're with you in spirit. We're supporting you every step of the way.
And we'll be here to support you afterwards, no matter what happens.
Love,
Tamar
Posted by ElaineM on June 21, 2006, at 7:56:42
In reply to Thinking of you » ElaineM, posted by Tamar on June 21, 2006, at 4:25:38
I'm on my way now. Last night was hard. I'm afraid I didn't do so good a job coping, but I made it through. I'm so sick with nervousness. This better go well. It's going to be okay, I think. It has to be. What will I do if something bad happens? I'd rather stay here posting all day, then go to my appointment. I don't want to do this. I wish today was already over.
Tamar, thanks for your support. Everyone.El
Posted by rubenstein on June 21, 2006, at 12:52:23
In reply to Tomorrow, posted by ElaineM on June 20, 2006, at 7:42:20
I am thinking of you, what an awful thing to go through, so many mixed feelings...take care of yourself
rachel
This is the end of the thread.
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