![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 20:20:53
Today was our second session with our new marriage counselor. We talked about how we both try to avoid conflict, and do so out of fear. What came up, though, was a bit about what my childhood was like. Things like being bullied and attacked by my cousin, and not being protected by the adults, and so on. The parts that really were abusive, that affect how I relate to people now.
I cried, and felt danged pathetic, and I hated that. I don't want to see myself that way, as damaged by child abuse. And I'm so afraid that it's just making excuses for myself, that I should be doing everything regardless of anything that ever happened to me. "I should Get Over It Already."
And as if that wasn't enough, my individual session was today, too, and when I told her about this, the whole thing about me having been abused became the focus of a lot of what we did today. My T wants me to get angry, to RAGE about what was done to me. (Of course, I can't even type "what was done to me" without cringing in shame, because you see that's Not Taking Responsibility. No one can "Do Something To" me, I have to Take Responsibility for it...) Anyway, that always triggers a lot of fear, and shame, and that sense of being pathetic.
There's a little anger in there, but even that triggers the fear response, and I get kinda paralysed, and I go into paroxysms of rationalizations to show that I'm not really blaming others, when it's my responsibility and all the rest.
And usually, my T will kinda let me snake my way out of it, and make it less so. Today, though, she kept striking that chord: "Your mother abused you." "You were abused as a child." "That was emotional abuse." "That was child abuse." "Your mother's abuse really f**ed you up." I know that she wants me to get to that rage, and to go through it to the other side.
But you know what? Even just thinking about being able to do that is so overwhelming. So much so, I had to end that paragraph, because I couldn't type about it anymore...
So, the point of all this, is that I do feel shame, for being so pathetic, for having been an abused child, etc. I don't want to see myself that way. I want to see myself as -- well, as normal. At any rate, it hits on that whole identity thing again, so I thought I'd bring it here. Maybe open up a discussion, because I know at least one other person here has trouble with this sort of thing...
I don't know what else to say, so even though this feels unfinished, I'm going to submit now...
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on March 22, 2006, at 22:36:59
In reply to But I don't *want* to have been an abused child!, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 20:20:53
I'm so sorry that you carry the shame for the (sick, illegal, cruel) choices that someone else made. And yes, I strongly believe that this was something that someone DID TO YOU. You were a child and vulnerable. There is no need to take responsibility for such a thing.
You talk abt the importance of taking responsibility. Is this something that you learned in therapy?
Acknowledging the truth is NOT the same thing is making excuses. You would be making excuses if you were trying to use this situation to manipulate others ("Sorry, I can't clean up after the dog b/c I was an abused child"). However, it is extremely relevant to consider childhood experiences in couples counseling.
Try to be gentle with yourself. You do not have to bear the responsibility here.
Best,
EE
Posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 22:52:59
In reply to Re: But I don't *want* to have been an abused child!, posted by Emily Elizabeth on March 22, 2006, at 22:36:59
>
>
> You talk abt the importance of taking responsibility. Is this something that you learned in therapy?
>No, taht actually came from the same people who were abusive. I wasn't allowed to say that anyone had done anything to me, that was an excuse. That was me trying to get out of taking responsibility.
It's actually the reason you'll see me, now and again, point out to someone here that they say "I was abused," "I got myself attacked," etc. "No, someone did that TO you..." It's because I can't get there myself.
And I got the "To understand all is to forgive all, so why would so'n'so do something like that? Once you understand why, you can forgive..." What got lost in all that was that I never learned to be angry, to feel hurt without feeling guilty for not being "good enough" at that whole "understand/forgive" thing.
Oh, and in talking about this, tonight, here, I just realized I got hit with a big wave of "you're wallowing in it..."
All of which is part and parcel of what my T is talking about as abuse. (Along with other things -- CSA, my cousin coming after me with a baseball bat and no adult stepping in, that sort of thing.) And she wants me to STOP trying to 'take responsibility' for it, and be angry with the people who actually did these things.
It's hard. I've got more than 40 years of not doing that, of feeling as though it's up to me to make things right.
{sigh} I'm just rambling now. I'm gonna go start cooking...
'Night, all.
Posted by TherapyGirl on March 23, 2006, at 9:11:53
In reply to Re: But I don't *want* to have been an abused chil, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 22:52:59
Racer, your posts just break my heart. I understand about the stuff that was drilled into your head before you were old enough to know better and I know how hard it is to undo that now, but please keep working on it.
I continue (after 21 years of therapy) to struggle with that myself. The things I heard are similar to the things you heard, with an added, "WHY are you crying about it? Crying about something NEVER makes it better." And, "In 20 years, this won't matter, so why cry about it now?" Needless to say, I have more of a problem expressing sadness or crying than I do with anger. I do anger extremely well -- the trick there has been to learn to direct it to the appropriate people.
It is *not* your fault OR your responsibility. I think Emily made that point better than I ever could. Take care of yourself and give yourself the break you would give another person, okay?
Posted by B2chica on March 23, 2006, at 9:32:14
In reply to Re: But I don't *want* to have been an abused chil, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 22:52:59
hey Racer. i understand.
i guess i grew up always taking the blame. i was abused because i didn't pay attention, didn't listen, didn't do as i was told. shame on me for doing, seeing, or thinking. i was 'taken advantage of' because i didn't stop it, didn't listen, didn't do as i was told. i was a belonging for others to do with as they please. that was my purpose.
if i'm angry at someone for doing something to me, then 1)i have to admit it happened and be ashamed of myself, 2)i was stupid and didn't stop it, 3)i deserved it.
how can we not feel responsible for it, when we were taught we're responsible for everything...even others getting hurt.
we are taught to take responsibility for our actions (or lack of). yet others say we aren't responsible for csa?
it's a confusing mess. it's hard for me to grasp there are exceptions to the rule.i understand.
b2c.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 10:08:00
In reply to Re: But I don't *want* to have been an abused chil, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 22:52:59
I get you.
My big breakthrough came when I spent weeks (literally) in sessions just listing all the different instances of abuse.
I had spent years wondering what was so wrong with *me* that these things had affected me so much.
The thing was that any one of those instances alone would be no real big thing - hurtful, but not harmful.
It was the sheer numbers of them that made it abuse. So for weeks I just listed them, no repeats, no interruptions, no elaberation. Just a list. And I could have gone on for weeks more.
That was when it dawned on me that it really was abuse - of the most insidious kind. The kind that other people don't understand because each individual act *wasn't* heinous.
Fact - you and I were abused. We didn't *allow* it because we had no choice. For that matter, we probably at the time didn't even realize that other families weren't that way.
And for "To understand all is to forive all" - that's a load. It really doesn't help forgiveness a whit to understand that my father was just a self-centered sadistic <insert f word>.
I tried, and I tried. I kept all lines of communication open - just in case he ever decided to be a father in the supportive sense of the word. And knowing I would feel guilt forever if he died and I had cut him off. (That's a me thing.)
I even had a few too many a couple of times and *told* him how lousy and mean he was. A total waste of breath and good scotch.
It never changed. And he's dead now and it won't change.
I came to realize after those weeks of listing things that all *I* really can do is try to not let it affect me forever, and to not pass it on to the next generation. That's the only thing in my power.
And, for me at least, that means getting hot-blooded screaming ranting p*ss*ed off about it. Because I didn't do anything to deserve that treatment and I have a right to be hot-blooded screaming ranting p*ss*ed off.
And *nobody* can take that away from me.
Posted by antigua on March 23, 2006, at 11:50:57
In reply to But I don't *want* to have been an abused child!, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 20:20:53
Posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:14:19
In reply to Re: But I don't *want* to have been an abused chil, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 22:52:59
Last night, as I was going to sleep (cuddling with my Old Man cat :-) ), I realized something about all this: It's not just that I'm afraid of what it will be like to feel that anger.
I'm afraid of drowning in that sadness.
I was starting to cry, last night, about it all. I stopped myself, because I needed sleep and I didn't want to upset the cat, but I realized that I'm terrified of what all that grief will do to me. I'm afraid that I'll just deflate with that sadness, and not be able to pull myself back together.
I'm going to call my T and leave a message telling her this, because I think, maybe, if I could get past the fear of the grief, and actually move on to the next stage of Grief, maybe I could get to the anger. (Although, I think maybe I'm doing the Stages of Grief in a sort of bassackwards order...)
Every time I start to get angry, there's the fear, but also the sadness -- and I think the fear of that sadness is really what's stopping me.
Posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:58:07
In reply to Last night, I realized it's not just about the rag, posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:14:19
Posted by AuntieMel on March 23, 2006, at 14:19:37
In reply to Last night, I realized it's not just about the rag, posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:14:19
Interesting.
With me, allowing myself to feel the anger helped let go of the sadness. Not right away, of course, and it still isn't all gone. But it's not near as crippling as it used to be.
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 23, 2006, at 16:52:30
In reply to Last night, I realized it's not just about the rag, posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:14:19
One of the big focusses of my own therapy has been, first, feeling much more fully the pain of having been abused, but also simultaneously learning to comfort my younger self (selves). At first, I didn't want to know anything about the pain these younger selves experienced, but now I am finding that integrating them into me more, feeling their pain, and learning ways to comfort them (and have them comforted by others) is really healing- really worth it. From what you say, you are making great progress in have started to really feel the pain more, but are really afraid of being overwhelmed by it. Would comforting techniques be helpful for
you, do you think?
Posted by orchid on March 23, 2006, at 17:42:56
In reply to But I don't *want* to have been an abused child!, posted by Racer on March 22, 2006, at 20:20:53
With effort and patience and working out, you can completely overcome the abuse. And then you will become a normal. Maybe a tiny bit of it might remain with you always, but that is ok - that would fall under *normal* categoy. The excessive hurt and abuse can be worked through and you can become quite normal. Hang in there.
Posted by madeline on March 23, 2006, at 17:52:23
In reply to Last night, I realized it's not just about the rag, posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 12:14:19
Racer,
Who told you that you had to be responsible for your abuse as a kid? Did I read that right?
What happened to us as children was completely out of our control. We were totally at someone else's mercy and there is no magic potion we can take to change it.
I used to have a huge problem with really strong emotions, like they would just suck me up and totally overwhelm me. I still have a little problem with that, but allowing myself to grieve for myself and all of that wasted wasted time has been so beneficial to me.
There is so much in the world that is so scary to us, and you have to take each things bit by bit.
But there can be freedom from abuse. It doesn't have to rule the day now. My T even says he has patients that can look at it as "just something that happened all those years ago".
There can be healing, control and love.
We get to be responsible for our lives and how we live them.
My thoughts are with you. I understand, I really really do.
Posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 21:43:16
In reply to making a friend of your younger self.. » Racer, posted by Pfinstegg on March 23, 2006, at 16:52:30
> Would comforting techniques be helpful for
> you, do you think?Yes, I do think, and it's come up both in individual therapy and in group. Of course, in group it's about all of us. So far, though, I think the group is still just new enough we haven't started that yet.
And thank you, to everyone who responded.
Posted by Daisym on March 24, 2006, at 0:18:44
In reply to Re: making a friend of your younger self.. » Pfinstegg, posted by Racer on March 23, 2006, at 21:43:16
I've read through all the responses and there is something deep and profound in each response. I think each person has found their own path to healing, though we blaze trails for each other along the way. Sort of like why I need to work with a male therapist and you can't even imagine it.
I have said often, through mass tears, that I don't want "this" to define me...I don't want to be "the woman whose dad abused her." Worse, I don't want to be a "survivor" or any other positive euphemism you hear applied to this. I don't mean to disrespect anyone who embraces these titles. I just struggle really hard with having any kind of relationship with myself around this. I guess that is part of what I'm trying to do in therapy.
I flinch still when my therapist says things like, "Its called rape" etc. He is calmly angry at my father in a powerfully scary way. The younger parts really believe that if he had the opportunity he would defend them completely and in fact he defends their grief and anguish from 'me.' Because I don't want to be an adult who was an abused child. And I surely don't want to still be that child who is hurting. And yet I'm both these things.
But -- the most confusing part is that I also want to completely be this child who is hurting. I want to be recognized as a child who was abused -- I almost typed that in capital letters. I want the truth acknowledged, I want it to not be my fault and I want to rage about it. And God help me, I want to make that list that Mel made. It is a horrible list, and I put my therapist through the ringer when I begin to do this, over and over again. But I think I'm proving to myself that it all adds up to "bad enough" to justify a lot of therapy, a lot of anger and a million tears. I owe my therapist about a hundred boxes of Kleenex.
I don't believe that you ever really get over it. I think it quiets into background noise and when you react to something you can say, "oh, right, that is an old fear." I think you work it through on one level and then when life circumstances stir it up again, you work it through on the next level. I'm guessing that is why those of us with this in our history bounce in and out of therapy, or just stay in it continuously. We learned really early that we can't trust our perceptions, after all, weren't we pretty sure that we weren't making mountains out of mole hills, and yet weren't we constantly told that we were? So we need someone else to ask, "is it OK to feel this?"
I don't know, Racer, if my reply is any help at all. As you know, this is a HUGE struggle for me. I feel like I don't know who I am, if I have to be this. But I do, don't I? And so do you.
Posted by AuntieMel on March 24, 2006, at 8:13:32
In reply to What if I'm not sure what I want? » Racer, posted by Daisym on March 24, 2006, at 0:18:44
Wow, that was powerful.
It sounds as if you really do know what you want. You want to be a whole adult, and you want to be able to hurt without the hurt overwhelming you.
You don't want to forget, but you don't want to be consumed. Be angry, but not be filled with hate.
The list (mine was verbal, I didn't write it out) actually gave me power. The more I talk about it the more it just becomes conversation. It's the only thing we talk about any more, but it still comes up from time to time as a way to understand my reactions to things.
It's OK. You will do it when the time is right for you.
Posted by orchid on March 24, 2006, at 18:24:57
In reply to What if I'm not sure what I want? » Racer, posted by Daisym on March 24, 2006, at 0:18:44
Hi Daisy,
What you have said is so powerful and deep. I know the feelings. I have been there myself. When I didn't want to get better, and just wanted to stay hurting. And simultenously wondering why I couldn't just push it aside and be normal.But I believe that the feeling change after a while. There comes a point, when (atleast in my case for the most part), you just feel ok with the abuse, and it feels something like, I neither feel like I am living with it, but I neither think of myself as having overcome it. I don't think of myself as an *abused* or as a *survivor* - for me, both negative and positve feelings seem too much, and just a neutral stance seems to be fine. It just was, in some distant past. It is almost as if I have become quite distant to the past, and every now and then it comes up and bothers me quite a bit, but then I find myself quickly dismissing it and moving on to other things without worrying too much about it or ruminating about it.
I just wanted to share.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.