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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
This is a hypothetical question for those of us who experience strong attachment with our Ts ...
Suppose you had a "successful" childhood (parents that loved, respected and cared about you in a healthy fashion). You entered therapy as an adult for work related/stressful situaion. Would this type of client become attached to their Ts?
I guess my question is, is it because of my neglected upbringing, that all these feelings are coming up in therapy? Do "normal" adults have an intense experience (from Pfingstegg's T) in therapy too?
Posted by alexandra_k on November 30, 2005, at 17:43:13
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
> Would this type of client become attached to their Ts?I think it might be a matter of degree. Maybe... The transference would tend to be less intense and they would be able to move through it faster (because it is less intense and they are better able to 'reality test' by considering how much they are responding to the present person as opposed to past people in their life)
Maybe
Posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:23:25
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
> This is a hypothetical question for those of us who experience strong attachment with our Ts ...
>
> Suppose you had a "successful" childhood (parents that loved, respected and cared about you in a healthy fashion). You entered therapy as an adult for work related/stressful situaion. Would this type of client become attached to their Ts?Yes… I think so. And it could be quite different from the feelings for parents. I believe my childhood was pretty good and healthy and normal (until my mid-teens anyway) and I currently have a very good relationship with both my parents. I would say my attachment to both of them is very secure. And yet my attachment to my therapist wasn’t nearly so secure.
> I guess my question is, is it because of my neglected upbringing, that all these feelings are coming up in therapy? Do "normal" adults have an intense experience (from Pfingstegg's T) in therapy too?
I would guess that someone who experienced neglect in childhood would have an attachment style that’s not very secure. And that would be even harder in therapy. But even ‘normal’ adults can be intensely attached, as far as I can tell.
Just my thoughts…
Tamar
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:37:24
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
I have wondered that myself and asked about it. I have a very good friend who has had the same therapist for three years and she doesn't seem at all attached the way I am, yet she adores her therapist.
Perhaps it is the underlying fear that is different. We seem afraid that we are too needy and that our attachment is unhealthy. For me, it is because I don't know what a "healthy" attachment feels like (leaving out my kids.) And I don't know how much need is too much need -- sort of like how many phone calls do you get to make before you are officially a pain in the *ss? Abandonment fears, separation anxiety, the need to talk about "our" relationship I believe comes from the deficiet in my childhood. My girlfriends simply don't believe their therapist is going to ever terminate or transfer them or simply disappear. They can not fathom why this is an ongoing struggle for me because reality has no bearing on the feeling.
The flip side is that there are plenty of people who refuse to allow the attachment at all. They leave when it gets uncomfortable.
Good thread...
Posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 23:58:04
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
I wonder about this too. I don't know. I know I have a terrible, crushing sort of insecurity which has been the focus of much therapy.
I'm not sure that a lot of people understand it, and I guess that's good for them. Perhaps they'd take the relationship more "for granted"- without any negative connotation here. Perhaps it wouldn't be the focus?
This is a good question for me because I'm really starting to think that a lot of people just don't "get it" (the insecurity, preoccupation with fear in the T relationship) - and it sort of freaks them out. I think feeling "safe" with someone is the most amazing thing in the world - because it's really hard for me. I still have serious issues with this, but for what I have sometimes, I am soooo grateful.
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:14:53
In reply to Re: Question to ponder, posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 23:58:04
I don't get attached? I'm faithful like a dog is all? I have regular bouts of dumpmeitis where I'm convinced she gonna dump me. Sigh. I'm confused.................
Muffled.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 1, 2005, at 0:17:16
In reply to Re: Question to ponder, posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:14:53
Confused? you mean about yourself or about the attachment?
I think the question is whether those with secure childhoods would be so worried i.e. convinced that their T might dump them
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:21:13
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » muffled, posted by sleepygirl on December 1, 2005, at 0:17:16
>
> Confused? you mean about yourself or about the attachment?
> I think the question is whether those with secure childhoods would be so worried i.e. convinced that their T might dump them***I am confused about attachment? I had a good childhood I think? My T thinks I didn't get what I needed from my parents or some such thing? I think maybe I am avoiding? My kids not here to bug me about avoiding.
Just generally confused.......
thats me......
Muffled :(
Posted by fallsfall on December 1, 2005, at 12:20:25
In reply to Re: Question to ponder, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:37:24
So even for those of us who are extremely attached, the issues can be different.
I'm not afraid that I will be too much for my therapist, nor really that he will get sick of me. But I still worry that he will leave (mostly in relation to my getting better). And I worry what I would do if he did leave. Then again, my previous therapist stopped being helpful - maybe it would have been better if she DID leave.
I talk about the relationship in therapy because he has told me that that is what he wants me to do - and because doing that has helped in the past. I guess when we do that I talk about how I'm feeling in reaction to how I think he's feeling. Are there other ways of talking about the relationship?
As for people who have had great lives?? I haven't a clue!
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 19:34:18
In reply to Re: Question to ponder, posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:21:13
Was at T today, she must've said 10x 'you're important to me, I care about you'. Whatever, dunno whos she trying to convince. Guess I got stuff on that too. Sigh...
Muffled.
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 10:28:29
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
I don't think I can answer. I was extremely attached to my parents, but not in a healthy way. Enmeshed.
But I think it's still possible. In my case, my therapist gave me something I'd never had before in my life. Because I never had it in my life, I assume it's rare and hard to come by. And if it's rare and hard to come by, I want to cling tightly and I'm terrified of losing it.
Oddly enough, now that I've been hurt by my attachment, and the quality he gives me seems even more rare by its lack in other mental health providers, I'm responding by trying as hard as I can to walk away and to not care. Not by clinging more. Ok, I alternate wildly and do both.
Posted by annierose on December 2, 2005, at 16:12:25
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » annierose, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 10:28:29
And oddly enough, I can't seem to remember her answer in whole. She felt that everyone comes to therapy with their unique set of problems, issues and map of how they see the world. And working within the theraputic relationship, the issues we encounter IRL will get pasted onto the therapist (her way of referring to transference). So adults with attachment issues will struggle with attachment in varying degrees with their therapist. And if the client is able to feel the attachment and discuss it, it's a sign of strength, of good mental health.
Then she went into this direction and sort of lost me, "So here is a clear example of how ill your mother was/is. Attachment is a wonderful thing, a human need, and you are worried that something is wrong with you because you feel things for me." My brain kind of froze and couldn't concentrate on what followed.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 2, 2005, at 19:47:53
In reply to Question to ponder, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 17:23:14
> This is a hypothetical question for those of us who experience strong attachment with our Ts ...
>
> Suppose you had a "successful" childhood (parents that loved, respected and cared about you in a healthy fashion).Not hypothetical for me. My childhood was just as you describe. (and sometimes, boy do I have some sort of "survivor of loving, healthy childhood guilt" as I read here and elsewhere about the things many (most?) of those in longer-term therapy didn't have, and the suffering you had to somehow endure instead.... :-( It's beyond heartbreaking.)
>> You entered therapy as an adult for work related/stressful situation.
Pretty much. Presenting issue was lack of concentration, racing thoughts, blah, blah...suspected adult ADD....was correct....but depressed also...I thought all related to frustrations and pain that go w/coping with the ADD (very common comorbid stuff)....wrong, though, there turned out to be much more with me, but almost *nothing* before age 19 that seems important.
>>Would this type of client become attached to their Ts?
Well, gosh, I hope so, because you just described me to a "T." (sorry for awful pun there)
> I guess my question is, is it because of my neglected upbringing, that all these feelings are coming up in therapy?
Probably yes and no. Or yes, but not *only* that triggers them....otherwise, perhaps I am quite disturbed in some way that's really not acceptable at all...?
>> Do "normal" adults have an intense experience (from Pfingstegg's T) in therapy too?
I'll never claim the "n" word, but the way you mean it here, annie, I'm one example of a resounding "YES!" My feelings for ex-T (you can't likely name one I didn't have) were the most intense I've ever felt for anyone in my life, except my child.
The ones I have now for this T, while different, are often equally intense.
This is a fascinating thread. It just echos one question I've asked over and over to several Ts.... "Why? Why? My childhood was fine - better than fine - as far as I know. Could I be this way solely from emotional traumas experienced as an adult (and even those weren't so awful or unusual)?" I guess I ask because it seems impossible....or impossibly weak and pathetic of me. I know - that's pretty much irrational, but the "tape" in my head says... once an "adult" I should have been able to weather any of these without this scarring or deep hurt that's popping up all the time now, I mean, doesn't everyone else?...these are just life events.
I suppose it's the "what the *adult* should do" part that's in question. I notice I unconsciously set the word off in quotes there :-( <sigh>
Because it's becoming clearer and clearer that it's no adult who is so deeply and desperately attached to my T. But...but...this throws me right back to, "but my childhood was great, so why does some little, scared, "hungry" part of me seem to need SO MUCH from my T?!!" ...and off in circles it goes again.
Grrr!
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 2:46:59
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » annierose, posted by 10derHeart on December 2, 2005, at 19:47:53
I have the same thoughts sometimes, really.
That nothing in my childhood should have brought me to this point.
But maybe there are many paths to any given destination. Maybe there are biological factors that mix with the environmental. Or maybe even in the healthiest childhood there are conclusions that we privately come to that influence how we interact with the world, whether or not they were correct conclusions. Or maybe people with the healthiest of childhoods can miss that feeling and try to recreate it.
Just throwing out ideas in the middle of the night.
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2005, at 8:09:50
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 2:46:59
Your mother's current behavior is a bit disfunctional, don't you think? Is is possible that a variant of that disfunction impacted you in your early years?
It is fairly well accepted that my mother has emotional deficiencies - but I didn't know anything about this until about 7 years ago. But if you looked at my childhood - we had dinner together every night and went to church on Sundays, we had enough money, my mother was the Girl Scout leader, my father had a successful job, we weren't beaten or sexually abused, the kids all got good grades and have college educations. Looks pretty good, doesn't it? But the concensus is that I was emotionally deprived (by my mother because she wasn't capable of more, and by my father because he was working all the time) - and that has had an impact on me.
Maybe it is just an excuse that my therapists have dreamed up so that I don't have to deal with feeling guilty about being depressed. If so, it does help, and I'm not about to challenge it.
Posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 9:34:22
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2005, at 8:09:50
Oh heavens, yes. She's dysfunctional and always was. Or worse.
I just don't remember being all that unhappy as a little girl, until I was ten or eleven.
I guess kids accept whatever they're surrounded with as normal.
I can come up with well reasoned and persuasive psychological arguments about why I am the way I am. I'm just not altogether sure I believe them. :)
Posted by fallsfall on December 3, 2005, at 13:21:05
In reply to Re: Question to ponder » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on December 3, 2005, at 9:34:22
My pediatrician remembers me as a "sad child" (he also remembers my mother as being depressed). I don't remember being sad until high school, when I spent hours crying in my room - but I even thought everybody else did that, too. So nothing in my childhood seemed abnormal to me (because for me it WAS normal). In many ways, I still don't understand what I missed, but I do accept that I missed something. My parents are well educated, kind people - but that's not necessarily enough.
But if you asked me, even 9 or 10 years ago - after my depression became disabling - how my childhood was I would tell you it was just fine. But, I'll tell you, my adulthood isn't just fine. I don't "blame" my parents (I'm not angry at them), but I do attribute significant parts of my issues to them (at least I attribute the genesis of my issues to them). I think it helps me to be able to say "I LEARNED these maladaptive strategies from SOMEPLACE (i.e. them, because they were the ones teaching me to grow up), so that means that they are LEARNABLE - and I can therefore RELEARN them differently". If I thought that all of this were innate, I would have much less hope that I could make things different.
This is the end of the thread.
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