![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 39. Go back in thread:
Posted by muffled on November 16, 2005, at 13:30:18
In reply to Just for now...., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 1:22:17
Posted by daisym on November 16, 2005, at 13:44:45
In reply to Just for now...., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 1:22:17
(((Tender)))
I'm sorry things are so hard. It makes me sad to read but I think it is something you will get through together. I hope it is clearer why he decided he had to do this in the details. Arbitrary change is the worst kind. It sounds like he made a very tough decision, knowing it would hurt you, but knowing in the long run he felt it was best.
Hang in there.
Daisy
Posted by Damos on November 16, 2005, at 14:50:15
In reply to Just for now...., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 1:22:17
Sorry you're hurting dearest 10der.
Love>10derHeart<Love
That's supposed to be surrounding you with love :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 23:03:07
In reply to ((((((((((10derHeart)))))))))), posted by Damos on November 16, 2005, at 14:50:15
Way better than I thought I'd be. I wonder if this could mean some kind of progress I can't quite describe yet. I think it might. I just don't quite dare to believe it, I'm so used to needing to learn things 100 times before they sink in, and to every "relationship event" like this being a catastrophe and a trigger for depression, but maybe this time it's only taken 2 times to learn something and it's sticking.....more on that later.
You all helped so, so much. Just seeing all the ((((( )))) is HUGE when words fail and no IRL people are available. Babblers are the most wonderful people ever.
I'm not obsessing about emailng him, anyway. Just tearing up every so often. It's hard to remember parts of the conversation that had phrases like, "stop emailing," or, "we can't do this any more." But I'm not nearly as shaky as I thought I'd be. I really do trust this man to work in my best interest, although clearly he caught me by surprise.
Part of what helped is as I was leaving, I asked (not that I have to ask, just felt like it this time) if I could shake his hand just to help me remember better that he's "still there" until next time. He said, "Of course" and squeezed my hand really tight and held the handshake for a long time (in a totally nice and non-creepy way, obviously) That was just exactly the kind of handshake I wanted and needed, so it helps to dwell on that instead of putting my own spin and meaning on other stuff.
I think, too, because it was so intense for two sessions, feeling like a threat to what we've built up over the past 11 months, I was partly trying to reassure him with the handshake. Wanting to reinforce one of the last things I'd said before we stopped, which was something like, "So, I'm pretty sure I can be attached to you, and worried, scared, furious with you for not somehow knowing this would happen, but still think you're a good therapist and the right one for me, and not quit or withdraw....I think I can feel all those at the exact same time and that's okay, right?" (I think I saw relief on his face then) It's like I was adding on, "...and I'll even allow physical contact to show that even being so very upset, it's not so bad that I don't care about or like you any more...," or something like that. It's a gift I wanted to "give" him (though I still remembered this IS all about me) after him "taking" my bitterness, disappointment, criticism, sarcasm, etc., for nearly an hour straight without flinching or being one bit defensive. I did NOT let him off easy, believe me.
I've been forcing myself to journal about this and why it's so important to me, why changes in relationship boundaries (even when intellectually I can see they may be healthy ones) cause me to feel devastated, unloved, unwanted and like I'm just doing therapy and everything else all wrong, thus being punished. It's hard - a lot of bad feelings about myself come up. A lot of crap resonates from old romantic relationships where there was extreme or repeated rejection, etc. Yuk.
I'll try to explain more about the whys and details that led up to this decision of his in my next post. Let's just say I seem to be a magnet for "this is the first time I've ever..." experiences with veteran T's! Sheesh.
It's been a long day. And BTW - I totally love you guys.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 23:12:27
In reply to I'm doing surprisingly well today..., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 23:03:07
Wow, oh wow you are doing so well
:-)I reckon...
Yeah, progress :-)Things like that can really be very hard. I have a tendancy to take things really very personally :-(
But the handshake sounded nice. And you are dealing with this really very well. Seeing that you can be upset with him, but still trust that he is looking out for your interests. And the journalling idea sounds great too.
Posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2005, at 7:49:40
In reply to I'm doing surprisingly well today..., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 23:03:07
>I really do trust this man to work in my best interest, although clearly he caught me by surprise.
That trust is so huge. For me it feels like being wrapped up in a soft blanket and held like a baby. I'm glad you have that trust, and that you have your therapist.
Posted by Dinah on November 17, 2005, at 19:11:36
In reply to I'm doing surprisingly well today..., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 23:03:07
I'm glad you're feeling better. I think that was so generous of you (and very much in keeping with your overall generosity.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
In reply to Just for now...., posted by 10derHeart on November 16, 2005, at 1:22:17
This is in no particular order, but I've tried to separate what was said in the 1st vs. the 2nd session (a week apart). I'm sure I've forgotten things, because the ever-present therapy amnesia is 10x worse during an emotional session, especially like this where I’ve been hurt and upset *by* him. I think some of that is my unconscious trying to block the reliving of painful words over and over by not allowing clear recall...but what the h*ll do I know?
There were two sessions. In the 1st he started out trying to explain his brief and mysterious response to my last email, saying he’d been thinking a lot about me over the weekend, and had realized/decided something about our between session emails. (He's always allowed and greatly encouraged lots of email contact, as much I need ("you can email me every day and that's fine"). It’s averaged about 2-3 most weeks, for about 6-7 months now) He said...
He feels we’ve – or he’s – created two relationships – both completely therapeutic and appropriate (that said over my instant and tearful protest that he was making it sound creepy or nasty or something) – but two distinct ones nevertheless – the email therapy and the session therapy. That he could see this wasn’t good for me because of the potential for “losing something.” Or something like that, I can’t recall and didn’t really get it anyway. He described it as seeing himself getting all excited (professionally speaking ;-)) when I send a really intense email, looking forward to doing great therapy by email, and helping me by not making me wait (thus, suffer) for input on whatever is troubling me until our next session. And that he realizes now that aspect has become all about him, and not me. And that, of course, is not okay. He thinks the lengthier replies he's given me maybe are taking away from our sessions, helping to "let me off the hook," so to speak, as if we're "done" with the topic, so it doesn't get explored further. (I agreed, that does happen – sometimes) So, he says he’s decided (this will change the 2nd week to a total cutoff) I can still email anything, but if he decides it's one of "those kind" (?!), he'll just briefly respond. He said he rarely makes changes like this, always letting the client take the lead, but that this emphasis on *his need* to use email as part of therapy vs. mine, is too important of a “misstep” for him to let it go any longer.
I guess I asked a few questions, kept sitting there stunned and upset and trying to picture how this would look from now on, sort of weakly challenging him as to why he’d misled me, why he didn’t just know this would happen, and so forth. Hard to remember, but I wasn’t a total wreck. Just crying a little and feeling slightly queasy.
In the midst of it all, sometime in the 1st session, I remember hearing him say he really wanted to help me with my problems, that he knew he was a good therapist, that he thought he could still help me, and that he really likes me. Funny – bet he doesn’t quite realize how unusual it is (at least so I’ve learned from Babble) for a T. to say that last thing, and how that ought to be a subject for sessions all by itself.... But I think, he was anxious enough himself (his foot taps rapidly off and on and he plays with his pen – dead giveaways he’s not relaxed and fully in command) he just blurted out stuff not only to explain his position, but to soothe me, to counter what he knew would be my reactions of: what did I do wrong, why can’t I do this right, why am I a freak, what’s changed, why are you rejecting me....all of which I felt and most of which I said.
So the “I really like you” comment seemed to just pop out. I don’t think it’s a big deal. I mean, my T. is no blank slate. He leans too far the other way at times, and we talk about that. We joke together. We have religious, cultural, social things in common. We seem to click in most ways. So I never truly wondered if he liked me. I’m funny, smart and interesting on my more grownup, rational days. He da*n well should like me! I keep him “on his toes” (his words) so he’s surely not bored with me – yet. And apparently, I’m not completely repulsive on my shaky, confused, needy little-kid days, since he responds and is kind and gentle with me. Yet still, that’s a loaded statement coming from any T. you have become attached to and are doing deep work with. I just don’t think he realizes....
Anyway, he told me at the end of the 1st session that he wondered if maybe as scared as I’d told him I was about what he was going to say, he may have been just as nervous. I told him I appreciated the honesty and courage it took for a T. to recognize and act on something like this. To basically feel he had to admit he’d messed up and was doing something more for him than me, and then to be humble enough to tell me about it. But I also told him it shook me up to know he could make such an error. That he ought to know how significant email is - particularly to me (this has to do with ex-T. – the initial reason I came to current T. in the first place) and it's not something to be treated lightly, etc. He agreed this could certainly damage trust and confidence and hoped we could get it back.
I don’t recall much more from the 1st session, except being so very tired, worried and puzzled afterwards. But there was still email – a little – between that time and the 2nd time. Not like now :-( (The electronic silence is deafening so far. But I’m holding it together..see him Monday b/c he’s taking off the rest of the week for Thanksgiving.)
The 2nd session - he asked me to describe how I’d been feeling all week. I told him a mixture of rejected, abandoned, hurt and a LOT of anger at him for putting me through this. He said a bunch of stuff in answer to my demand as to why he felt so strongly this had to change like this. So hard to recall the words, but I’ll try.
That he finds himself looking forward to my emails. Expecting them. Enjoying them. Enjoying writing back to me and anticipating I’ll write back, then he’ll write back, etc., etc. That he wonders why if I don’t send him one. That he’s never had email contact with a client like this before – ever (psychologist for nearly 30 years and in clinical practice probably 25 out of those 30). That he just can’t go this far “outside of his box” and feel comfortable and sure that therapy remains focused 100% on my needs, not his.
At some point, I cursed at him a little. Told him this business about still email but don’t write "that kind" of stuff was total b.s. That what he was saying was not to email, that if you thought about it, there would be no other option – anything halfway or limited would be ridiculous. I’d forever be trying to craft a message that didn’t cross some imaginary line of being too deep or something, so he’d answer. Because him responding AT ALL was more important than what the substance was about. Impossible to do that way. After much avoiding and me having to demand of him, “what do you want?! what are you really saying?!” he reluctantly admitted the need to say, “stop emailing me," yet wondering if this was “okay.” Argghhh!!! No, it’s not okay....look at me sitting here nearly sobbing... But more than anything, I need something definite and firm. I said those words felt like he was stabbing me with a knife and scolding me all at once. He apologized and said he didn’t feel like that and didn’t mean to use a tone like that. Whatever. Very angry and hurt little 10der at that point.
I threw out a lot of stuff about fear and not believing a word he said and the stuff he’d said the prior week being crazy. He said, “Alright, yeah, I was clumsy last week. What I asked you to do was stupid, not thought out. You’re right.” I wondered if we could continue, if I could get over this. I wanted to know what I was supposed to do if I wanted to talk to him, to make contact to know he was still there. He said to call and leave him a message. When I asked, “will you call back?” there was silence. No. He won’t (I’m sure in a crisis- yes – but we weren’t talking that way as I usually don’t get to that point) I think I had a fit then and said more hurtful stuff, told him he didn’t get me at all, that leaving messages knowing there would be no response was insane and would just upset me more.
He was really quiet – then asked if I’d try to consider journalling for him and bring those pages in. I could write like I was emailing to at least get the words out of my head. I reminded him the prior week he’d said, and I quote, “I’d like you to journal, but I doubt I could get you to bring anything in, even if you did.” I yelled at him for giving up on me without even trying to push me to try that. That maybe I was resistant but wasn’t it his job to break that down sometimes...to not just resign himself and give up on a possible path to more sharing...? He said I had a good point. Da*n right I did!
I don’t know what else. I only remember crying and crying and asking if he had a clue how much this sucked for me. He said, not to the depth I wish I could, but some, yes, I see it. I think I threatened to run, to quit because he was abandoning me. He said (sadly) he would hate to see that happen. That he hoped we could examine all this, find out why it is so impossible for me to internalize him more (after a year together) and to believe he exists between sessions. To use every bit of my upset to go deeper into what troubles me and frightens me in relationships. Then a few minutes later after some small talk, there was the handshake I posted about. That’s been keeping me sane and safe, really. It was important. The right touch, at the right time, with the right T. and client, can be tremendously healing and good. I’ve always known that. Thank goodness I had enough strength left to ask for the handshake.
So there. I’m all right overall, but every day I’m longing to email him. To test him or something. But I haven’t. Wish I didn’t still feel like a naughty child, foolish and lost.
Hope this wasn't impossible to follow.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:11:52
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
Posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:19:42
In reply to :-), posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 23:12:27
Thanks. That was a sweet post.
Writing is hard. Somehow it's differnt with email, or even Babble.
My mindset seems different.I'm still okay. Maybe a bit numb but not devastated.
That must be important, 'casue we can't live so well being constantly devastated by everything.
I mean...if this is that bad...well,
Where can I go from here? Not far.Sometimes we just want what we want and can't see a way to stand the hole left without "it", or "him" or "them" or whatever.
But we're not always right there.
Maybe we can find other people.
Maybe the relationship can survive a change.
Just maybe.....:-)
Posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:32:41
In reply to Re: I'm doing surprisingly well today..., posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2005, at 7:49:40
Yes, it's really huge. Really hits home when you sometimes read posts of people struggling to see whether or not their T's really are putting their needs first all the time. Ouch. It's a blessing I don't have that issue.
Guess it's hard for me sometimes to keep trust separate from perfection. No one's perfect, yet we nearly want that from a T. at times. Maybe this will end up showing me how to trust and forgive human error withour so much agony and fear. After all, if they're (T.s) somewhat like guides on a journey, well, I guess my guide can take a slightly wrong turn and then apologize and backtrack to get us going the right way. I suppose I can allow for that without losing faith.
I like your soft blanket image. I don't quite have it with this T. I can see potentially having it. I see us close to that. And that's okay for now.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:45:23
In reply to Re: I'm doing surprisingly well today... » 10derHeart, posted by Dinah on November 17, 2005, at 19:11:36
Well....I didn't mean to imply it was more for him than me, or even as much for him as me....don't know if I'm *that* good. Truly, I probably wanted to hang on for dear life to his hand for about 5 mins., not the tiny 4 seconds or so I had. I may have had a flash of you curled up around your T's leg, holding tight :-) Ahhh...a nice thought. Is is good, bad, or neither? I don't know sometimes.
Thanks for the compliment. I strive to give at least as much - if not more than I take, at least in most parts of RL. Succeed sometimes, fail others. Except in therapy, well, that all gets a bit muddled, as you know, while we have permission by the nature of the relationship to just take, take, take.
But - there are those intense moments of just seeing one another's basic human shortcomings where it seems really fitting to give something emotional and warm back to our T's, for sure. I think this was kinda one of those.
Posted by Tamar on November 20, 2005, at 20:21:51
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
(((((10der)))))
I couldn't help crying when I read your post.
I know what you mean about the handshake.
I'm so sorry he's taken away something that was so important to you.
If he wants you to internalise him better... has he talked to you about ways to achieve that?
I wonder if he's reacting too strongly to this change in his usual practice. I'm sure he's perfectly capable of containing his feelings about enjoying your emails. I don’t think two juxtaposed relationships need to be a problem. If he’s having trouble handling those two relationships side-by-side, it really sucks that his trouble has an impact on you.
And yet… maybe his therapeutic commitment to you is so strong that he doesn’t want to let you down. Maybe he trusts his 30 years of experience in session more than he trusts his limited experience of email contact. Maybe he genuinely believes he can help you better by talking in session that by talking in email. He knows it’s hurting you, and he doesn’t *want* to hurt you: that much is clear. And yet it seems he believes that his way of working with you would be better if things were different. It totally sucks.
If only therapists could be everything we want them to be: perfect in every way! Maybe like other relationships in life they have their limitations. I know it feels like a rejection, but if your therapist really cares about what’s best for you, it’s a decision made out of love, even if he’s wrong, misguided, or imperfect. That’s the bottom line. He may be wrong, and he may be flawed, but he does genuinely care about you.
I’m so sorry it hurts.
Tamar
Posted by littleone on November 20, 2005, at 21:01:19
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
Hi 10der,
Thanks for sharing the details. And don't worry about it being too long - I read every word. And was quite happy to do so.
I'm finding it hard to reply to you because I felt such conflicting things from your post. So I'll apologise in advance in case I don't make sense. A young part keeps coming up today.
> especially like this where I’ve been hurt and upset *by* him.
It does hurt a lot when it's your T who causes the hurt. Understatement of the year. I don't know about you, but I find it really difficult to know what hurt my T has actually caused and what hurt is caused by my own twisted thinking/perceptions/etc. And when the two are knotted up together, I really have a lot of trouble pulling things apart. And I find it hard because when my T hurts me, the only person I can go running back to cry to is him. But my instinct is to withdraw when someone hurts me. I find it all very difficult. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it hurts so much more when it's your trusted special person who hurts you.
> He feels we’ve – or he’s – created two relationships – the email therapy and the session therapy.Wow, he is smart. I can see how that would be, but I also know that it would be hard to see that while you're in the middle of it. And it sounds like you recognise the truth in it too. You mentioned how you can keep things out of your sessions by dealing with them by email instead. And as hard as it is, I do think you need to do what has to be done to stop that from happening. I'm not saying that cutting off all emails was the best answer - I'm just not sure. But I am sure that it's important that you don't use the emails as an avoidance mechanism. And I guess too, by only "talking" about them in emails, your not taking the risks involved in trusting someone else and talking about them face to face out loud. But that's probably just my stuff coming through because I know you do talk a lot more than I do.
> He described it as seeing himself getting all excited (professionally speaking ;-)) when I send a really intense email, looking forward to doing great therapy by email, and helping me by not making me wait (thus, suffer) for input on whatever is troubling me until our next session. And that he realizes now that aspect has become all about him, and not me. And that, of course, is not okay.
You do know, don't you, that what *is* very okay is that he has been able to admit to this and to stop making it about him and to make it about you again. On one hand, it is a very good trust building thing that he has put you first. This *proves* that he has your best interests at heart. Of course, on the other hand, it's a trust destroying thing the way he's suddenly cut you off like he has.
I remember how in "In Session" it talked about how if something the T does feels kind of either specially rewarding or punishing, then it's not right. And the way he's suddenly cut you off has a feel of that punishing aspect. Could he be wanting to punish himself and instead be pushing that punishment on to you? Might be worthwhile asking him.
I think you could both probably come to at least a temporary (or even permanent) sort of compromise. Like maybe cut off all emails, but agree to one or two or whatever phone calls between sessions. With an agreement that anything raised in the calls must also be discussed in your session. That enables you to keep a bit connected and to feel like you have support or back up. It doesn't have that sudden abandonment feel to it.
I'm sorry, but I'm finding it really hard to keep going.
I know I wanted to say that you can also post all you like. It could even be a sort of compromise with jounalling. You could give him print outs of your posts (if he knows about babble that is).
> That he finds himself looking forward to my emails. Expecting them. Enjoying them. Enjoying writing back to me and anticipating I’ll write back, then he’ll write back, etc., etc. That he wonders why if I don’t send him one. That he’s never had email contact with a client like this before – ever
Oh oh oh. Every client's dream (and nightmare). To know you're special to him. I wish... no I don't. I don't know. This is so hard for me. He's put you in a terrible position. I'm glad you can come here for some soothing. Although I'm not much of a soother. But others are.
> “stop emailing me," I said those words felt like he was stabbing me with a knife and scolding me all at once.
See - the scolding does feel like punishment. Maybe you should read that "In Session" part again. I'd go in with copied pages from the book and stuff I'd found off the internet and everything I could to prove that the punishment is wrong. All done in an attempt to get something back (like the phone call compromise or whatever). But then, that's my control issues coming through.
> I wondered if we could continue, if I could get over this.
You can continue. It is hard. But it should help you learn something about yourself if he handles it well going forward. Your trust is rather bruised at the moment, but it's not destroyed. You have a good foundation together.
This must be so hard for you. Why don't we take a little while to pick some flowers together. It's okay if you cry, it just waters the plants a little. There's some real pretty flowers here now. Pink ones and blue ones and white ones and some creamy ones and a couple of little patches of bright red ones. Can you see my kitty napping under that bush?
Posted by daisym on November 21, 2005, at 14:02:02
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
Don't worry about too long, I like long!
I can see why you are upset, the whole thing sounds confused and painful. It seems clear that he is trying to do what he thinks is best and acknowledging that he is causing you pain. You have good reason to be upset with him and it sounds like you aren't holding back with that either.
I think you were very brave to ask for a handshake. That feels a little like you both forming a bridge to reach each other over this divide. I have faith you can work this through. Don't disappear, keep posting for support. We have plenty to give here.
Posted by muffled on November 21, 2005, at 14:13:45
In reply to Re: Details (very long) » 10derHeart, posted by daisym on November 21, 2005, at 14:02:02
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 22:35:52
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
I think I'd be up and down and all over. There was so much vulnerability in what he said, and I honor him for being so honest about himself. And in some ways it was a very caring action. Which doesn't make it hurt that much less, I guess. Maybe you can substitute other ways of reaching out for the emails. More intimacy in session, perhaps. Because this seems like one of those moments that, while full of turmoil, may be opportunities for moving to a deeper level of relationship.
Dang that fighting for relationship!
Posted by Voce on November 21, 2005, at 23:19:13
In reply to Details (very long), posted by 10derHeart on November 19, 2005, at 19:10:24
Hi 10der,
I tried long and hard to come up with something meaningful, groundbreaking snd earthshaking to say, but I'm finding I don't have much more than the other lovely, helpful words you've already been given. You are such a strong person, and I hear the pain and frustration in your words, but also the hope, the understanding, the wisdom and the insight you also have into yourself and him. I can imagine how painful, how terrible and how devastating it must have been to hear him say all those things to you, and how rejected you may have felt.
But it sounds as though he is trying so very hard to take care of you, in his own squirrely way, you know? Who was it in this thread who said that T's have limits too...that is a terrible thing to find out, that our beloved T can go this far and no further.....
And yet, perhaps this limitation will be so very beneficial in your sessions...who knows? And he's still there, my dear, he's still with you. That is something.
I hope you are still doing okay. Please be extra good to yourself this week, and I hope your Thanksgiving is lovely. Even if your T may be a turkey. Haha.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 25, 2005, at 16:08:02
In reply to Re: Just for now.... » 10derHeart, posted by orchid on November 16, 2005, at 2:03:26
Thanks so much for the big hug. I sure needed as many as I could get that day!
> It is always better if therapists stick to firm and unchanged boundaries from the beginning to the end. This kind of arbitrary chnages is very hard on the patients.
You know, I used to think I agreed with that, but in practice I'm not sure that's possible in therapy or other relationships. In fact, firm and unchanging boundaries might require unchanging thoughts, feelings, circumstances, etc. from the people involved, and that's never going to happen. Particularly in this case, if in all these years no one's ever wanted to use email between sessions, I suppose he was trying it and leaning very much toward giving me anything *reasonable* I wanted to strengthen our work together.
I suppose....he just couldn't see it coming that it wouldn't always BE reasonable for him, having no experience to fall back on. (yes, I'm defending him :-) )
But, oh yes, I'm stil angry and resentful. Wishing he could have known, warned me, something. But that may not be fair when you think it through. Because it wasn't an arbitrary change, listening to the great amount of thought he gave it before sayng anything.
I appreciate your posting to me, Orchid.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 25, 2005, at 16:42:20
In reply to Re:((((((((10derheart)))))), posted by alexandra_k on November 16, 2005, at 2:06:37
> I'm sorry hon.
> :-(I know you are..and it helps (helped that day a LOT)
> > This has to do with his policy of allowing unlimited email between sessions.
>
> Hmm. Thats a funny policy...
> To allow / encourage 'unlimited' emails / phonecalls / whatever. Because... I think... When 'unlimited' is involved. Well... Burnout is imminent...Well, not necessarily. I see no evidence of burnout. (Especially now knowing of all the many clients he has, no one else emails him, other that a brief appointment time change, cancellation, etc.) And, there was never any promise, fantasy or expectation of any kind that he would answer them in any certain way or in a specific time frame. We did talk about the fact he promised to speak up if they became just over-the-top as far as too long or too frequent. They never did. They more became...too good? Too deep? Too potentially therapeutic? It's clearer to me now it was truly the effect on our session relationship along with the fact he just came to *like* reading them so much....(his stuff)...that prompted this...
> Hmm... Maybe he needs to think about setting some reasonable limits... So he doesn't have to do the 'unilateral' thing...<<
I asked (ironically, IN an email...) about 4 months ago..."How much email is too much? Where do you see your boundaries?" Here's his verbatim reply:
"You ask the best questions.
Here's what I think. Deciding on the boundary goes both ways. You are the only one who can assess your needs "in the moment." You have to ask the question, "Can this wait and/or can I wait until my appointment to talk about this?" For my part, I will ALWAYS respect your need to send me an email, but I can also say, "Let's wait to talk about this." I don't want you to feel that you have reached a "max email quota." I don't think I could work that way."And then we talked about it more later. So whether it was wise or not, we were both on the same page for a long time..... I think what it evolved into blindsided him, as I wrote to Orchid above.
In short, he found out he couldn't (hardly ever) say, "Let's wait to talk about this." Too much anxiety and pain in the emails, I think...and he cares so (too?) much.... Hard to find the fault there...but...I dunno
Now I think it could have helped had he told me in 30 years he'd never "done this before"...because with my prior T., I DO have experience with a T. dealing with me, going through a process with me and trying something in completely uncharted terriorty. Maybe, I could have seen the meaning, even the possibility of the emails stopping, in a different light had I known he was waaaayout on that limb....but again, I dunno.
> I told him very bluntly how angry and confused I was, and how much this totally s*cks for me. He looked very sad himself.
>
> Yeah.
> Fair enough.He's endured this bluntness for 3 sessions now (not exclusively...but probably 70% of the hour!) and in 2 long journal pages I brought in.....hasn't been overwhelmed yet....and says do it, say it, as much as long as you want. It has not been pretty for either of us...but it's helping.
> Yeah... I think I'd be pissed off and majorly hurt too. I mean... He must have been feeling not so good about the emails for a while... For it to get to the point that he says he needs to stop them altogether. So... He should have said something before now about not having 'unlimited' emailing. But maybe... Some sort of 'limited' email contact.
>
> :-(
> :-(
>
> I'm sorryYeah. But I can't/don't want to live with the limits, I don't think. That's yet to be seen. We have a lot more to talk about on this. No email at all for 11 days now and I'm surviving.
Thanks for all the thought and heart you put into this. As always. I noticed :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on November 25, 2005, at 16:55:48
In reply to Re: Just for now.... » 10derHeart, posted by annierose on November 16, 2005, at 5:02:26
> (((((((((10der))))))))
>
> You don't sound silly at all. One part of your relationship is changing and change is hard. Did your T reply back to your e-mails, or were you writing to him, sort of like a journal, telling him what was going on in your life and things that were bothering you?Almost always wrote back, most times something quite substantial, too. I so, so looked forward to it. Both for the attention and contact, and for the substance.
> He must be feeling that he is spending a good portion of his time reading all these e-mails from clients and now wants those feelings right there in the room with him --- in session.
No...and yes :-) No, 'cause I've found out I was the only one ever in his whole career (triggers tomns of stuff to talk about around being special and unique to him, and now, maybeI'm not(?) arghhh!)
Yes, 'cause he definitely was VERY worried we had these two separate things going sise-by-side, and needed to meld them back together and get them back into the room. You're so right there.
> You will get through this. I'm glad you are telling him how hurt you feel.
>
> Keep writing here or journaling --- it really does help to get your feelings out.Oh boy am I telling him! I think the healing is already starting because he's taking the hurt and anger so very well. Not totally accepting every mean thing I say without comment or explanation....but still taking responsibility while standing firm in his convictions.
I see myself learning over and over I can be VERY mad at someone important AND tell them so. Even mean, uncalled for, unreasonable stuff, and we can still reamin close and connected. Wow! This is a HUGE lesson for me that I want to learn.
Thanks, annie. Your post was so sweet, calming and grounding to me that day :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on November 25, 2005, at 17:09:21
In reply to Re: ((((((((((10derHeart)))))))))) (nm), posted by JLynn on November 16, 2005, at 6:28:40
Posted by 10derHeart on November 25, 2005, at 17:22:22
In reply to Re: Just for now.... » 10derHeart, posted by LadyBug on November 16, 2005, at 7:09:38
Your post touched me, LB. If I remember right, once you came to Babble, you did post a little about what that period was like for you and your T....I think? And from what I recall and what you wrote here, your situation was worse. Much worse. That's not me minimizing my own pain, either. I really think so. It was just to much, too many things, and you were too fragile. (Hope that came out the good way I meant it.) But this is just one of the reasons your post helps. Because if you two could get through, around, past, over, that....well, I'll be fine.I already have some understanding of his position. I need more. He's being great about letting me talk it to death, so thank goodness for that. It sucks every time we have to realize our T's can't be perfect and may sometimes HAVE to make a big error to grow and learn themselves. Wish it wasn't that way, but it is. The risks of becoming close to any other fellow human, I guess. But it's worse with a T. - the therapy framework is so precious, so precarious, and so insanely special to many of us....like you don't know that!
I'm glad I'm here with people like you. You take care, LadyBug.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 27, 2005, at 16:45:05
In reply to Re: Just for now.... » 10derHeart, posted by fallsfall on November 16, 2005, at 7:10:56
> (((((((10derHeart)))))))
THAT was a big one. :-)
> These kinds of changes are so, so hard.
Yup. Ouch. But...maybe....just maybe I'm realizing I do get to the other side, often wiser and better, and *surprise!!* the changes don't actually kill me! Something quite awesome to realize.
>>And if you "need" someone else in the world to read them, then ask someone to. I know that I have a hard time journalling if noone will read it.<<
I usually can't bear the thought of anyone reading my journals. But in this case, I'm desperate for my T. to read my thoughts and feelings - in real time, so to speak. And ONLY my T., it seems. And he encouraged that for SO many months....the bonehead! <sigh>
> He's being open and honest about this situation. You can be open and honest, too. And the two of you will get through it.<<
Yes, you're right. It's coming at quite a great cost to him emotionally, from what I can pick up from VERY nervous body language on his part during that first day, the second, horrible session, and one we've had since then. Each time I mention certain aspects of my hurt and upset....it starts. I should probably tell him if he ever plays poker he's in trouble, 'cause he's got some out of control "tells."
Love your posts, Falls. Always look forward to them on any thread. There's just something about your writing that conveys steadiness and calm and caring. Thanks for that.
Posted by 10derHeart on November 27, 2005, at 17:01:22
In reply to Re: Just for now.... » 10derHeart, posted by Frida on November 16, 2005, at 7:48:20
Thanks for sharing that, Frida. Those are wonderful ideas to consider changing from email to letters like that. Sounds like you really did go through something similar to me. Was it hard and painful for you, too? I mean, did she used to also write answers back to your emails? That's the part I'm still missing so much. (2 weeks without emails and it feels so much longer :-( )Like I told my T., just seeing his name in my inbox, before even reading the reply, soothed me and made me feel so happy and so "seen." That really made him stop and think, and he remarked about what an awsome responsibility it is to be that important to another person. <sigh>
I'm doing better as time passes. I think, really, though I may bring up some modification of zero emails after a little while. After all, it was really me who sort of concluded from what he was saying I'd better just stop completely...he just silently agreed. So I think he'd be okay with general ones from time to time, not discussing anything too deep. But for now, to help "break me," of the constant habit, I think it's better if we don't even try that. I brought him 2 journal pages last week, so we'll see how it goes talking about those.
I really appreciated your post, Frida. Sounds like we both have good T's who care about us. A huge blessing. :-)
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