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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
... feeling sorry for myself and tolerating the pain?
I was trying to figure this out. If I sit and think about stuff that feels sad (stuff I normally try to avoid thinking about) am I doing something useful or pointless?
Posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 19:30:47
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
i think sometimes we need to grieve for stuff.
grieving can be healing.
you can process that.
and a result is that you feel a bit better
and the memories etc are less likely to be invasive at inconvenient times.but hard to strike the difference between that and wallowing...
i tend to do both i think.
but the latter...
is when i'm doing the head circle thing
and i end up feeling worse rather than better.
Posted by orchid on October 25, 2005, at 20:04:59
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
The difference actually depends on what the outcome you are trying to achieve out of it.
If all you want is to feel sorry for yourself and, then going over the pain might end up just as a pointless rumination.
If however, you are trying towards healing, and trying to make peace with it, or trying to understand what happened and why you felt the way you did, going over the pain might lead to useful knowledge and healing.
I think you haven't used this board as much as you could have to work out your issues with the sexual assault in your past. Perhaps for other issues also.
Maybe trying to write here will be a good way of going over the pain in a very constructive way.
((Tamar))
Posted by Dinah on October 25, 2005, at 20:40:38
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
Danged if I know. It's all Greek to me.
But if I find out, I'll let you know.
Posted by Annierose on October 25, 2005, at 21:22:32
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
I don't think this is the direction you wanted your post to take ... but ...
I think it's best to think about the sad (and bad) stuff with a skilled professional. That gives the pain a purpose. Now, even though I'm in therapy, trust me, I still feel sad or think about sad or painful things all the time. But it's helpful for me to know that I can unload my mind and sort it out with my T.
My T would say that hard as we try to avoid thinking about our issues, they come up again and again, just in different disguises. I love those moments when she points out my emotional displacement of a situation, an AAAHHHH moment.
I don't think it's pointless, especially because you have the ability to make connections, not everyone can do that. You're very insightful.
Sorry you're thinking about stuff that feels sad.
Posted by Shortelise on October 25, 2005, at 22:31:57
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
what a good question. I need to think on that, too.
Posted by daisym on October 25, 2005, at 23:34:30
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
I think it might depend on where and when you do the thinking. But your question seems based on the false assumption that you can (or should or shouldn't) choose to think about sad things or not. Isn't distraction one way to tolerate pain?
Sometimes I find myself sitting, and realize that I've lost an hour or so to memories or daydreams or thoughts. I come out of it but typically I keep hurting, the feelings stay with me, even if I go "do" something else.
So, I didn't answer the question -- but maybe the real question is "Is it OK to feel bad about the same stuff over and over again?" I think of James Kirk in Star Trek V -- "I want my pain. I need my pain. My pain is part of who I am..." Maybe there is a lot of truth to this?
I still wish you didn't have any. :(
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 5:42:00
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 19:30:47
> i think sometimes we need to grieve for stuff.
> grieving can be healing.
> you can process that.
> and a result is that you feel a bit better
> and the memories etc are less likely to be invasive at inconvenient times.
>
> but hard to strike the difference between that and wallowing...Exactly. That’s what I’m not sure about.
> i tend to do both i think.
> but the latter...
> is when i'm doing the head circle thing
> and i end up feeling worse rather than better.I think my own head circle thing is a way of avoiding the pain. I don’t really feel it. I find ways of rationalising it or ways of blaming myself, or even ways of feeling that life is unfair… but actually feeling the pain is something I find hard to do. And when I do it I’m sure I’m wallowing. And maybe I am…
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 5:48:19
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by orchid on October 25, 2005, at 20:04:59
> The difference actually depends on what the outcome you are trying to achieve out of it.
>
> If all you want is to feel sorry for yourself and, then going over the pain might end up just as a pointless rumination.I don’t think I’ve ever consciously wanted to feel sorry for myself. But maybe I’m not always completely honest with myself.
> If however, you are trying towards healing, and trying to make peace with it, or trying to understand what happened and why you felt the way you did, going over the pain might lead to useful knowledge and healing.
Sometimes I think I’m doing that. But I wonder if I’m deceiving myself and whether I’m really just whining about things that happened 30 years ago and should be long forgotten.
> I think you haven't used this board as much as you could have to work out your issues with the sexual assault in your past. Perhaps for other issues also.
Maybe so. The thing that prompted this post wasn’t about the sexual assault stuff. It was about a teacher I loved when I was a little kid who didn’t love me (recognise a theme there?).
> Maybe trying to write here will be a good way of going over the pain in a very constructive way.
Yeah, perhaps. I suppose I’m also not sure of the difference between using this board to talk about therapy and using this board to do therapy!
> ((Tamar))Thanks for the hugs. I needed that!
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 5:48:42
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by Dinah on October 25, 2005, at 20:40:38
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 5:53:21
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by Annierose on October 25, 2005, at 21:22:32
> I don't think this is the direction you wanted your post to take ... but ...
Hey, I’m open to all directions… And it’s always good to hear something I might not have expected to hear…
> I think it's best to think about the sad (and bad) stuff with a skilled professional. That gives the pain a purpose. Now, even though I'm in therapy, trust me, I still feel sad or think about sad or painful things all the time. But it's helpful for me to know that I can unload my mind and sort it out with my T.
Yes. You’re absolutely right. The thing that I was thinking about is precisely the sort of thing I should talk about in therapy. I wish I’d remembered it when I was still doing therapy. And I’m still working very slowly in the direction of perhaps going back to therapy. I’m no longer ruling it out completely! I think it will take some time to get there…
> My T would say that hard as we try to avoid thinking about our issues, they come up again and again, just in different disguises. I love those moments when she points out my emotional displacement of a situation, an AAAHHHH moment.
Absolutely! It’s great to have a good T who can lead you to these insights!
> I don't think it's pointless, especially because you have the ability to make connections, not everyone can do that. You're very insightful.
Thanks. So are you!
> Sorry you're thinking about stuff that feels sad.
Thanks Annierose.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 5:54:13
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by Shortelise on October 25, 2005, at 22:31:57
> what a good question. I need to think on that, too.
Let me know if you find the answer :)
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 6:11:08
In reply to What's the difference between..., posted by Tamar on October 25, 2005, at 18:39:23
sounds to me like... mostly you are talking about grieving. for past hurts. and i think... some of that probably does need to be grieved for. most especially the stuff that comes up spontaneously at inappropriate times. or stuff that does recurr.
grief can be hard...
sometimes... espcially when we beat ourselves up for being upset about something 'silly' or whatever... then we don't really work through it. sometimes... that can lead to going around in circles. aggrivate it even.
but sometimes... if you can just feel the pain. to say that yeah thats how i felt and it hurt. and remembering it hurts. and it probably always will. but once you have 'heard' your hurt. once you have validated your hurt - the way you would validate a kids hurt if you saw them going through the same thing... well... sometimes i think that thats what we need to move on.
to acknowledge the hurt.
to accept that it is okay to hurt.
to accept that some sh*tty things happened and yeah we felt angry / sad / whatever in response
thats how we felt and that needs to be acknowledged
and soothed
soothed
like it never was.and until it gets that... it will recurr.
and sometimes... it can be about how we conceive of what happened too... if i think 'my father abandoned me' then i feel mad at him. if i think 'he had to get away from her as much as i did' then it is more manageable. i still grieve for having felt abandoned. but it is the difference between anger and hatred of him and my grief. i can work through the anger and hatred of him by getting to the grief. and i can work through the grief by acknowledging those feelings and accepting those feelings and letting myself feel them at appropriate times and soothing myself and caring for myself like... i needed someone else to do for me when i was little.sometimes i think it is about... parenting ourself. caring for ourself.
the head circles. where everything seems black. where you feel mad or whatever.. i dunno. they terrify me. i'm not sure what to do with those... but i think i can recognise them now. see that that is where i am at. and i need to get better at... doing or feeling and not focusing on the thinking. there is so very much going on in my experiences i need to get better at concentrating my attention on somehting anything other than my thoughts.
i dunno
just talking...
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 7:04:07
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by daisym on October 25, 2005, at 23:34:30
> I think it might depend on where and when you do the thinking. But your question seems based on the false assumption that you can (or should or shouldn't) choose to think about sad things or not. Isn't distraction one way to tolerate pain?
Good point. I guess I worry that I use distraction too much… Maybe there isn’t really a ‘too much’…
> Sometimes I find myself sitting, and realize that I've lost an hour or so to memories or daydreams or thoughts. I come out of it but typically I keep hurting, the feelings stay with me, even if I go "do" something else.
Yes, I often find I do the same thing. I seem to go around in circles with the same memories or daydreams or thoughts… they keep coming back day after day and week after week. But it’s not really the pain that I’m thinking about when I’m doing that. It’s more that I’m thinking about things that are tangentially related to the pain, but aren’t the pain itself. And if I do feel the pain itself I tend to believe it’s mostly self-pity. The only times I really believe that the pain is genuine are the times when I want to harm myself.
So I wonder if I’m doing something wrong. And I’m also not getting enough work done! But somehow I can’t motivate myself to work when I’m in that space in my head…
> So, I didn't answer the question -- but maybe the real question is "Is it OK to feel bad about the same stuff over and over again?" I think of James Kirk in Star Trek V -- "I want my pain. I need my pain. My pain is part of who I am..." Maybe there is a lot of truth to this?
Yeah! (I love Star Trek, though I never quite got into Voyager, or the newest series with whatshisname from Quantum Leap…) Yes, I guess it’s inevitable that we feel bad about the same stuff over and over.
> I still wish you didn't have any. :(
> Hugs from me,
> DaisyThanks Daisy. Hugs to you too.
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 8:07:54
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 6:11:08
> sounds to me like... mostly you are talking about grieving. for past hurts. and i think... some of that probably does need to be grieved for. most especially the stuff that comes up spontaneously at inappropriate times. or stuff that does recurr.
Yes, I think that’s true.
> grief can be hard...
>
> sometimes... espcially when we beat ourselves up for being upset about something 'silly' or whatever... then we don't really work through it. sometimes... that can lead to going around in circles. aggrivate it even.That makes a lot of sense.
> but sometimes... if you can just feel the pain. to say that yeah thats how i felt and it hurt. and remembering it hurts. and it probably always will. but once you have 'heard' your hurt. once you have validated your hurt - the way you would validate a kids hurt if you saw them going through the same thing... well... sometimes i think that thats what we need to move on.
Yes, validating it sounds like a good idea. I guess that’s a better way to think of it than feeling sorry for myself.
> and until it gets that... it will recurr.
> and sometimes... it can be about how we conceive of what happened too... if i think 'my father abandoned me' then i feel mad at him. if i think 'he had to get away from her as much as i did' then it is more manageable. i still grieve for having felt abandoned. but it is the difference between anger and hatred of him and my grief. i can work through the anger and hatred of him by getting to the grief. and i can work through the grief by acknowledging those feelings and accepting those feelings and letting myself feel them at appropriate times and soothing myself and caring for myself like... i needed someone else to do for me when i was little.(((((Alex)))))
> sometimes i think it is about... parenting ourself. caring for ourself.
>
> the head circles. where everything seems black. where you feel mad or whatever.. i dunno. they terrify me. i'm not sure what to do with those... but i think i can recognise them now. see that that is where i am at. and i need to get better at... doing or feeling and not focusing on the thinking. there is so very much going on in my experiences i need to get better at concentrating my attention on somehting anything other than my thoughts.Ah, not focusing on the thinking. Yeah, I suppose I focus on the thinking and then it’s hard to feel. I’m not entirely sure how make the shift from thinking to feeling. If I recall, the CBT stuff seems to suggest noticing what we’re feeling and trying to identify the thoughts that go with the feelings. Maybe it could work the other way around? Notice what we’re thinking and try to identify the feelings that go with the thoughts? Is that still cognitive, or is it then affective? (Must stop thinking, must stop thinking…)
Thanks Alex.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on October 26, 2005, at 8:52:52
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by alexandra_k on October 25, 2005, at 19:30:47
Hi, sweetie: I believe that ALL of our feelings are important, and we need to feel ALL of them, in order to know ourselves, or to heal....it is never a waste of time to think or feel........matter of fact, I believe it is necessary; feelings are all we have to go on to know ourselves.......If we ignore feelings, they show up in other ways-----physical problems (100's of different ailments); as we all have heard, stress kills. i did some research (being that i counsel women who are being abused, and consider myself an "expert' in verball abuse.....the amazing thing is that our brain chemistry/cells....LITERALLY change as a result of long-term stress.......My brain must look like a Rorscharch (think that's the way you spell it) test!!! A lifetime of abuse (except for 3 years in the army!), but hey, I am so resilient (good thing; or I would be drooling in a corner, somewhere).....Feel your feelings, sweetie......smetimes it is so painful, but necessary to good mental health. Hugs n grins, Allison----and......CELEBRATE life (I try hard to do that) ; still healing after 31 years of abusive marriage; but SMILING (delusional? LOL, LOL)
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 10:26:53
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by allisonross on October 26, 2005, at 8:52:52
I think you’re right that not feeling our feelings can lead to physical illness. Sometimes I just don’t know where to find them…
Thanks!
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 16:07:40
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 8:07:54
> Yes, validating it sounds like a good idea. I guess that’s a better way to think of it than feeling sorry for myself.
yeah. because if you think of it as 'feeling sorry for yourself' then that is invalidating it. because it tends to lead to thoughts like 'i'm so stupid to be upset about this' etc etc and that sort of thinking tends to make the pain worse. or sometimes... it will numb it. but i think the pain is more likely to recur.
i get the staring into space thing going on too. mostly in the evening for a couple hours before sleep and in the morning for a couple hours before waking. and during the day... it used to be real bad but it isn't so bad anymore.
> Ah, not focusing on the thinking. Yeah, I suppose I focus on the thinking and then it’s hard to feel.yeah. i'm not sure how much use it is to think through stuff in a detached / removed way. i guess if you are working on reconceptualising it in a way that is likely to enable you to move on it might be helpful... but if you are just reliving it in a detached way over and over then that doesn't sound helpful to me... if you are thinking yourself round in those head circles of 'i'm so stupid to be thinking about this etc' then i don't think thats helpful either.
that being said... i still do this sometimes...
>I’m not entirely sure how make the shift from thinking to feeling.
it is a matter of refocusing your attention. you can think of attention as being like a muscle. we get better at controlling it when we exercise it, because the muscle gets stronger... this is one of the things we did in dbt skills training group in the mindfulness componant. mental exercises...
one exercise is to be aware of your thoughts and to also retain awareness that you are not your thoughts. to visualise them in carrages or something like that floating through the greater space that is you... you can do this with feelings too. especially... when you are in danger of being lost in them. consumed by them. compelled to act on them. imagine them in carrages floating before your mind. they are one thing that is going on inside you but they are not everything. there is more besides...
with respect to feeling instead of thinking... for me that is what mindfulness meditation is about. sometimes you hear people say that the point of meditation is to think of nothing at all. but the trouble with trying to do this is that it is an antagonistic process... if i instruct you 'do not think about oranges for 30 seconds' you will find that is impossible to do. thats a fact about our thought processes, a fact about our psychology. you can't make yourself think of nothing.
but what you can do... is to refocus your attention on something else. what i like to focus on is how my breathing feels. if i can focus all my attention on how my breathing feels then i'm not aware of any thinking - see? we could haggle over whether i've stopped thinking or whether i'm just ignoring my thoughts but either way i'm not aware of thinking because i am feeling. sometimes it seems automatic that our attention gets focused solely on our thinking. its about learning to take control of that.
and the other thing is that the idea isn't so much being able to achieve total control, its more about noticing when your attention wanders and drawing it back on what you are trying to do... over and over and over and not judging yourself for the fact that your attention wanders.
to begin with we did this for 30 seconds.
i'm serious.
it is hard.
it took me a year...
but i got up to 30 minutes.
if i were to start doing it again (as i really should) i'd probably start at 2 minutes.
it is hard work.
but if you practice it when things are relatively okay it gives you more control when you need it.>If I recall, the CBT stuff seems to suggest noticing what we’re feeling and trying to identify the thoughts that go with the feelings.
yeah. thats because of their assumption that thoughts cause feelings. if you identify the thought then you can change the thought and that will change the feeling (that is the theory not saying i agree)
> Maybe it could work the other way around? Notice what we’re thinking and try to identify the feelings that go with the thoughts?
??
if you are numb... then you aren't feeling anything at all. i'm not sure that thinking helps us identify feeling... not if you aren't aware of having a feeling... with respect to labelling our feeling... yeah i guess...if you want to get in touch with your feelings...
then maybe it is about focusing your attention on how your body feels. especially the areas that are involved in emotion such as your gut your throat etc etc.you could think about it....
and be aware of your body...i don't know.
sorry.
Posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 16:36:46
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 16:07:40
Thanks Alex.
I was reading your post and thinking, yeah that sounds right; yeah, that makes sense; yeah I could try that… and then I got to this bit:
> then maybe it is about focusing your attention on how your body feels. especially the areas that are involved in emotion such as your gut your throat etc etc.
>
> you could think about it....
> and be aware of your body...And suddenly I felt really uncomfortable at the very idea of focusing my attention on the feelings in my body. I felt like I didn’t want to go there.
So I think you must be right! I will try that, as well as some of the other things you suggested. I think it will be hard…
Thanks for your ideas!
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 17:15:56
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 16:36:46
LOL! Yeah, thats the spirit. I figure that you are probably blocking the feeling by dissociating yourself from your body. Maybe practice becoming aware of how your body feels when you are in a good place first. When you are feeling happy. Or content. Or whatever. And just become acquainted with how it feels then.
Then when you are feeling a little flat.
Then when you are aware you are blocking.
It will be hard.
I find it hard.Take it real slow.
Posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 17:21:31
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » Tamar, posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 17:15:56
don't forget to validate / be kind to yourself
and really do take it slow
probably best to practice in small bursts rather than to think you will give it everything you have got and overwhelm yourself (possibly leading to having too much of a negative experience and increased fear of these kinds of exercises)
Posted by allisonross on October 27, 2005, at 14:09:26
In reply to Re: What's the difference between... » allisonross, posted by Tamar on October 26, 2005, at 10:26:53
> Hi, Tamar! (think I am getting the hang of how to post here, LOL) ofI think you’re right that not feeling our feelings can lead to physical illness. Sometimes I just don’t know where to find them…
you mean where to find your feelings, sweetie? Do you go to therapy now?
hugs, Allison>
> Thanks!
You are so welcome....dear new friend!
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 16:21:47
In reply to Re: What's the difference between...Tamar, posted by allisonross on October 27, 2005, at 14:09:26
Hi Allison,
> you mean where to find your feelings, sweetie? Do you go to therapy now?
Yeah… Can’t seem to find my feelings. I did short term therapy for about six months but finished quite a while ago. Some people here have been gently nudging me to go back… which I resisted at first, but I’m starting to think that resistance is futile and I will be assimilated!
Tamar
Posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 16:50:35
In reply to Re: What's the difference between..., posted by alexandra_k on October 26, 2005, at 17:21:31
Thanks Alex. That’s good advice.I think I’ll have plenty of opportunity to try it out in the next 48 hours… I tore a calf muscle today and won’t be able to walk very far for a while. So I’ll have plenty of feelings in my body to be aware of!
But I’ll take it slowly…
Tamar
Posted by alexandra_k on October 28, 2005, at 21:30:29
In reply to What I'm feeling in my body » alexandra_k, posted by Tamar on October 27, 2005, at 16:50:35
This is the end of the thread.
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