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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 29. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
I'm so broken right now I don't really know what to think so I'm coming here b/c I don't know where else to turn. We had a rough session. My T was wonderful, supporting, caring but it was so very rough.
Not sure how to go about saying this and I am afraid to say it, but I guess it's necessary to understand what's going on. (Possible trigger so please be careful about reading) Right before she left, I sort of blanked out at one point while bathing my toddler - he was fighting me - and slapped him. Not too hard but that's NOT an excuse and it's so unforgivable. I just didn't think; it happened. There are a lot of postpartum/ mothering issues I'm having (due largely to my f'd up upbringing) and I seem to have occasional disassociation tendencies (plus anger issues; I'm BPD). I really didn't want to tell my T, which is the big red flag that I need to of course. So I did and now she's got to look into whether or not she needs to report me. :(
She's going to call me and let me know either way, and has offered to see me for extra sessions. She also asked how it would make me feel if she has to call. Well, I think you can all guess. I certainly understand that she may have to do this, but it would be so humiliating. Plus the fact that my husband would have to find out and will probably never forgive me. Although my T has offered to have my husband in so I can tell him in her presence.
I just don't know if I would be able to be fully comfortable around her ever again. Again, I understand fully but still I think my trust is shaken. I don't want her to lose her license and I know she can't make even one exception, but there's still that little part of me that wishes she could.
I just don't know where to go or what to do at this point. I hate myself. Go ahead and beat me up, I know I did a terrible thing and I deserve it.
:(
Posted by pinkeye on July 11, 2005, at 14:49:52
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
Who does she have to report it to?? The cops?? Or some health facility?
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 15:18:06
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by pinkeye on July 11, 2005, at 14:49:52
> Who does she have to report it to?? The cops?? Or some health facility?
Not sure... social services?
I should add that I love my son more than anything. I don't think that came across in my post but he brings such joy to my life. Unfortunately, his birth triggered the re-emergence of my problems (severe post-partum depression brought major depression/ BPD out of remission). But I would never go back and change things. I love having him in my life.
Posted by cricket on July 11, 2005, at 15:24:43
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
Oh Greyskyeyes. Don't beat yourself up over this. These things happen. Kids, especially toddlers, can wear you down so much and then if you have dissociative tendencies...well it can just happen. I know you didn't want to do it. I hope that your T supported in that way. And it is forgiveable. I know that you give your son tons of love and no mother is 100% perfect 100% of the time.
I don't really understand the having to report it. Isn't what you say in therapy confidential? I don't understand that part. How long have you been with this therapist? My trust would be shaken too.
My best advice is to find lots of support right now. Is there anybody that could do some babysitting for you?
I hope everything works out for you. Post away if we can help you.
Posted by Daisym on July 11, 2005, at 15:29:55
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
I don't know what state you live in, but in California this would not have to be reported as you describe it. (I'm a mandated child-abuse reporter and I train home visitors so I think I'm pretty up on this stuff.) Beyond that, most of us as parents have felt what you felt about our toddlers. Slapping a child is not the way to handle your frustration but it is also easily understandable. I think you are doing everything you should be doing to help you learn how to handle your anger, including working with your therapist. Even if a report gets made, the first recommendation is usually parenting classes and/or therapy.
As far as telling your husband, I think you might want to consider it even if you aren't reported. It might be bathing your child that triggered you, or the mixture of fear and frustration that bathing a slippery child can bring on. Classic safety response of a parent is to shake and then hug and then shake a child that was minutes before in danger. By telling your husband you share the responsibility of keeping your child safe and you can talk about appropriate discipline. I might say, "you know, I can't believe I did this, but the other day little johnny pushed all my buttons and I just reacted and smacked him. I felt so bad, even thought I didn't hurt him. It made me think that we need to talk about how to set boundaries for him now that he is getting older. I know lots of parents spank, but I hope we can figure something else out that works for us." You aren't a monster, really. But you need support for yourself. Parenting is such hard work and nothing can make us more frustrated than our own kids.
It took a lot of courage to tell your therapist and to share it here. I'm sure you will find a way to talk it through with her. You've already done the hardest part.
Take care of yourself.
Daisy
Posted by pinkeye on July 11, 2005, at 15:38:58
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session » pinkeye, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 15:18:06
Of course you are not a monster or what you did was unforgivable or anything. Spanking is not the right thing to do, but minor spanking is not cruel or unforgivable (atleast in my opinion).. If it is an aggressive assault that is a different story, but minor spanking is forgivable, especially considering that you are taking steps to reconsider and correct it. And I know you love your kid.
I wouldn't report it if I were your T. I would see if it gets out of hand or becomes more aggravated. Or maybe just ask your husband to come to a session and explain to him, and ask him watch out for it.
I think if you explain to your husband, he would understand it.. and of course promise him that you wouldn't do it again and stick to the promise. It is easy to take our depression and anger on helpless little ones, and I think many of us would get very tempted to do it, but the right thing to do is to be able to control ourselves better.. Maybe practice some form of meditation - that might help as well.
I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were your T.. but then I don't know about your T - she has her license to worry about and she might be acting more on that aspect than on really judging what you did. I am sure if she didn't have the license to worry about, she wouldn't worry about it.
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 15:49:50
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by cricket on July 11, 2005, at 15:24:43
I just spoke to my T and she says I'm OK, she doesn't need to report me. Not sure what the rules are, but I think it has to do with that part on the confidentiality papers which say that the T is obligated to report the patient if they represent 1) harm to themself or 2) harm to others.
I'm so glad my T called right away... I haven't been able to get a thing done at work (gee can you tell?). I've been a nervous wreck. I'm going in to see her again tomorrow... we're doing an extra session this week. She wants me to consider going 3x every week now but it's just too expensive, even though she's charging me 50% her usual rate. I've been seeing her for a little over a year and she really has done wonders for me, it's just that there's so much to do... :(
She thinks (and she's probably right, grrr) that my instability was due to her going on vacation. I lost my "safe place" and all hell broke loose, I guess.
Posted by happyflower on July 11, 2005, at 16:02:32
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
You know I don't think their is a parent out there who hasn't lost there cool at least once and either said something they shouldn't or hit their child. But it is a warning sign, that you need help controlling your anger. Is it abuse?, I don't think so if it happened just this once and the child is not harmed physically.
I do know in Indiana if anyone like childcare workers, teachers, and therapist suspect abuse, they are obligated to report it to the officials. Even though I don't believe in spanking, I don't think if you slapped your child it wouldn't equal to abuse if it just happened once and the child wasn't hurt. Plus spanking is a right a parent has , and I think slapping is included in that, as long as there are no marks left on the child. But I would suggest maybe some parenting classes or anger managment therapy.
Posted by cricket on July 11, 2005, at 16:25:56
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 15:49:50
I'm glad to hear that it doesn't have to be reported.
It sounds like your T is really on your side.
>She thinks (and she's probably right, grrr) that >my instability was due to her going on vacation. >I lost my "safe place" and all hell broke loose, >I guess.
I was wondering about that. I'm glad you have your "safe place" back. We all need one.
Posted by annierose on July 11, 2005, at 21:45:36
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
GSE -
I'm glad your T called and reassured you that she does not have to report you. I was SHOCKED to read that she would even consider that as an option. Of couse, hitting a child is never considered an appropriate action, but it wasn't like you were neglectful and beat the child.
I would ask her what prompted her initial thoughts of reporting you. I would feel more guarded in the future in relaying these types of frustration.
Posted by daisym on July 11, 2005, at 23:18:34
In reply to Re:T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by annierose on July 11, 2005, at 21:45:36
Before we judge the poor therapist too harshly, I think we have to remember that she knows a lot more than we do and given the diagnosis (no offense intended, I promise) and the admission of hitting, I think she did need to think about this carefully. Remember that she didn't have to tell her client that she might report, but she was upfront and supportive and called like she said she would. She gets high marks from me.
This is a tough situation on both sides. I think both people are remarkable. Trust continually needs to be rebuilt and there is no doubt that will be a challenge. But my guess is that the relationship will be stronger because of how the therapist has handled it. I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here. It's just my opinion.
Posted by Jen Star on July 11, 2005, at 23:55:12
In reply to [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 14:46:46
hi GreySkyEyes,
I'm sorry you're hurting and that things are rough right now.Have you watched the "Nanny 911" shows? They have AWESOME methods to change kids' behavior without spanking them, or even yelling too much. I think that if more people were able to learn those techniques, lots of family stress would go away!
Personally, I don't feel that one slap ( a not too hard one) is grounds for reporting, and I don't feel that it's abuse. I mean, I don't advocate hitting on a regular basis, and I don't agree with abusing kids. But one well-placed spank now and then (I think) can help, sometimes, if the kid is truly acting terribly and won't reason.
If YOU feel it was inappropriate, or not given correctly, the best thing to do, in my opinion, would be to focus on controlling your behavior and anger management, to control your stress. If you hit hard, that would be a problem. If you feel that you lash out uncontrollably, that would be a problem. Obviously it's better to deal with kids thru other methods than to hit them. And if you feel that you hit a child without provocation, or felt later that you wished you hadn't, you may need to work on behavior control for yourself.
If your T did report you, to whom would the report go? What would be the repercussions?I hope things work out OK. You're not a bad person.
Take care,
JenStar
Posted by Jazzed on July 12, 2005, at 10:30:46
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session, posted by GreySkyEyes on July 11, 2005, at 15:49:50
> I just spoke to my T and she says I'm OK, she doesn't need to report me. Not sure what the rules are, but I think it has to do with that part on the confidentiality papers which say that the T is obligated to report the patient if they represent 1) harm to themself or 2) harm to others.
>
> I'm so glad my T called right away... I haven't been able to get a thing done at work
When I first read the original post, I felt the fear of god in me. At my 2nd appt with my T, I said, "is there anything I can't tell you?" And he told me not to tell him if I"m beating my kids because he'd have to report me.What I didn't understand with your post was why 1 slap would have to be reported. That seems extreme, doesn't seem like "beating". I'm so glad this all worked out for you. Scary! I can understand why you would feel a bit inhibited with what you say to her right now.
We all lose our tempers. It's hard being a parent. I think things like this give us perspective.
I hope you're feeling better now,
Jazzy
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 10:38:49
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by cricket on July 11, 2005, at 15:24:43
> I'm glad to hear that it doesn't have to be reported.
Hi cricket... I'm glad she doesn't have to report it too! I mean, if she did of course I would deserve it, but it would make things so much worse.
I know you don't have to be a perfect mother 100% of the time, but I just feel like I have to! And it weighs so heavily that I'm not. My mother wasn't very emotionally involved and I think I'm going to the opposite extreme.
I did send my son to a friend for a sleepover a week ago. That's always refreshing. :) It's not like he's a bad kid - I don't think kids can BE "bad" at his age. He's just hitting that stage where everything is a Major Battle (he's 1 1/2). And it's sooooooo frustrating. Even for "normal" (ha) people.
> It sounds like your T is really on your side.
Yeah, she is... she's really trying to work with me on this and other issues.When my insurance changed and she wasn't on it, she lowered her rate so that I'd be paying the same deductible I would if she were on it. But she's not going out of her way for me so much that any boundaries are crossed. She also doesn't really care for my diagnoses - she says that people are people, not diagnoses. So I'm fortunate in that she doesn't stigmatize me that way (unlike some p-docs... but that's another story. grr). She's also constantly praising my progress... I have a hard time seeing it myself, but it does make me smile. :)
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 10:50:12
In reply to Wait a minute, posted by daisym on July 11, 2005, at 23:18:34
> Before we judge the poor therapist too harshly, I think we have to remember that she knows a lot more than we do and given the diagnosis (no offense intended, I promise)
None taken.>and the admission of hitting, I think she did need to think about this carefully. Remember that she didn't have to tell her client that she might report
She has warned me in the past that she would have to if things progressed to the point of physical abuse. But I just can't lie to her; I trust her more than anyone and it would hurt me unbearably to lie to her. So I told her, even though I was scared of the possible outcome.>but she was upfront and supportive and called like she said she would. She gets high marks from me.
You'd better believe I was checking my cell phone's voice mail on the hour! It took her about 3 hours to get back to me... and she called me at work rather than leave a message on my cell, which was kind on second thought... though I had to speak in "code". :)> This is a tough situation on both sides. I think both people are remarkable. Trust continually needs to be rebuilt and there is no doubt that will be a >challenge. But my guess is that the relationship will be stronger because of how the therapist has handled it.
I think it will, too. Like I said, I can't lie to her, and I think it's mutual. She's never held anything back from me. At one point (a few months ago), she told me flat-out that she thought I was in danger of destroying my marriage if I didn't work on things such as this. I've actually been doing a lot better, I just had a major relapse. Probably due to her vacation... ugh, I feel so dependent! I never thought there was any transference going on but now I think she might be filling that "mommy" role for me.>I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here. It's just my opinion.
Not at all, and I appreciate your insight Daisy.
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 10:54:39
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session » GreySkyEyes, posted by pinkeye on July 11, 2005, at 15:38:58
Hi pinkeye, I like your meditation idea... the thing I need the most is the ability to keep myself "in" a moment. When stress gets to me - particularly with my son - I lose my grounding and completely cut off emotionally, and essentially lose all control over what I'm doing. So I wonder if meditation might not serve as a better coping mechanism and help me to center myself. What is a good way to get started? I've always thought I should try it but never knew where to begin...
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 11:01:42
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :(, posted by happyflower on July 11, 2005, at 16:02:32
> it is a warning sign, that you need help controlling your anger.
Oh yeah. working on that constantly.>Even though I don't believe in spanking, I don't think if you slapped your child it wouldn't equal to abuse if it just happened once and the child wasn't >hurt.
I'm with you, I don't believe in spanking. It can easily get out of control. The punishment needs to fit the crime, and I can't think of too many circumstances in which spanking would apply. Although I could understand it in the case of needing to apply immediate corrective action to a small child, such as a 3 year-old running into the street. But I'm leery to do it myself.<I would suggest maybe some parenting classes or anger managment therapy.
My T is looking into support groups.Thanks happyflower.
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 11:05:39
In reply to Re:T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by annierose on July 11, 2005, at 21:45:36
> I would ask her what prompted her initial thoughts of reporting you. I would feel more guarded in the future in relaying these types of frustration.
Good idea to talk to her about it... it's a sensitive subject for me right now so I might wait a session or 2. I would be interested to hear what exactly she is obligated to report. But I wouldn't be able to hold anything back from her, I'm just not like that. (GSE: opens mouth, everything comes spilling out. Inserts foot.)
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 11:14:25
In reply to Re: [trigger?] T back from vacation, rough session :( » GreySkyEyes, posted by Jen Star on July 11, 2005, at 23:55:12
> Have you watched the "Nanny 911" shows? They have AWESOME methods to change kids' behavior without spanking them, or even yelling too >much. I think that if more people were able to learn those techniques, lots of family stress would go away!
I hear they're great... I definitely need to watch! Unfortunately they're on at my son's bedtime. Maybe I should put him to bed early... :D
> Personally, I don't feel that one slap ( a not too hard one) is grounds for reporting, and I don't feel that it's abuse. If YOU feel it was inappropriate, or >not given correctly, the best thing to do, in my opinion, would be to focus on controlling your behavior and anger management, to control your stress.
It wasn't that hard, but it was enough to make him cry. That's what upsets me the most. And I'm so afraid that one slap can lead to more. You're absolutely right, behavior/ anger management are really what I need. I'm working on that constantly in therapy (there's just soooo much to work on). And my stress levels are a bit high, which doesn't help - I work 2 jobs.
> I hope things work out OK. You're not a bad person.
Thanks Jen Star... I just feel like one right now. :(
Posted by GreySkyEyes on July 12, 2005, at 11:22:19
In reply to Re: [trigger?] What my T told me about this, posted by Jazzed on July 12, 2005, at 10:30:46
> When I first read the original post, I felt the fear of god in me. At my 2nd appt with my T, I said, "is there anything I can't tell you?" And he told me >not to tell him if I"m beating my kids because he'd have to report me.
Wow, that's so honest of him! You know, I really appreciate your asking YOUR T about this. It's nice to hear another perspective. It's not that I don't trust my T (I do!), it's just that I wonder sometimes if she's more gung-ho because of the social worker background. What's really sad is, she said even if she did have to report me, it might never be investigated. That breaks my heart for children who really are being abused.
> It's hard being a parent. I think things like this give us perspective.
Sigh.... you're right! It's not like I thought parenthood would be all fun and games, but whew. It's so much work. But it does have its rewards - he's learning to walk and toddled about 3 steps over to me this morning and wrapped himself around my legs. Awwww. :)
> I hope you're feeling better now
Actually, I am. You and everyone else are so supportive and wonderful, I cried when I read all the posts this morning. Thanks everyone....
Posted by pegasus on July 12, 2005, at 21:25:46
In reply to Wait a minute, posted by daisym on July 11, 2005, at 23:18:34
Yes, I agree. I'm also a required reporter of suspected child abuse in my state, and I think those laws are there for a good reason. It does mean that abusers don't have any safe place to discuss their problems, without running the very high risk of being reported. But, then, those laws say that as a society, we think it's more important to protect kids from abuse than to provide abusers with resources for confidentially discussing their problems.
Also, the law doesn't say you have to report admitted abuse. The law is that you have to report if you *suspect* child abuse, even if you're just putting 2 and 2 together.
Sounds like GreySkyEyes didn't really abuse her son. But, I agree that it sounds like her therapist did the right thing in considering her obligation to children in her community (and to the law), while also preparing her client for the possible repercussions. I'm glad it turned out not to be an issue after all.
Also, just to clarify, when a person is obligated to report suspected child abuse, they report it either to the dept. of social services (if the abuse is among the family), or to the police (if the abuse is from someone outside the family).
pegasus
Posted by annierose on July 13, 2005, at 7:31:57
In reply to Re: Wait a minute, posted by pegasus on July 12, 2005, at 21:25:46
.... just frustration.
Sorry that I posted about how I felt. Offense taken. Finished with this thread.
Posted by Dinah on July 13, 2005, at 17:44:53
In reply to Re: Wait a minute, posted by pegasus on July 12, 2005, at 21:25:46
I dunno. I think that a therapist should think about whether something really is a problem before scaring a client and undermining the trust in the therapeutic relationship. Since it turned out she decided she didn't have to report it, why did she have to say that she might have to until she looked into it? Couldn't she have just cautioned that she has to report child abuse and that the client should realize the limits of confidentiality?
My therapist and I got into a major trust disturbing disagreement because I was depressed, with suicidal impulses, and he kept asking if I had any thoughts of hurting my son. There was never ever any indication that I had ever done anything to my son. I think in his entire life, I swatted his diapered tush (he didn't even realize it with that padding) exactly once when he was climbing the TV. And once I yelled at him to shut up. There was absolutely no reason other than sensationalized media reports for my therapist to think that I was any danger to my son. And I was hurt. The first time I just told him of course not. The second time I told him that I was hurt that he would think I would do that, and he defended himself by saying he was required to ask. The third time, I told him that if he didn't know me well enough by now to realize that the only person in the world I would ever harm was myself, then he didn't know me at all. He considered it in the time before the next session (after getting a bit defensive again) and admitted that yes, he did know me that well. He didn't ask again. And rightly so. Because if my mother is still hale and hearty, my son is in no danger.
Posted by daisym on July 13, 2005, at 20:25:22
In reply to Re: But there was no absuse ...., posted by annierose on July 13, 2005, at 7:31:57
Annie,
I didn't mean to offend you. Really. I guess it is a super sensitive subject for me, since I see so much of it and because of my personal history. Perhaps I jumped in to defend the therapist where no defense was needed. I just believe so strongly in being transparent about these things.
The last thing I'd want to do is hurt your feelings or make you feel like your opinion wasn't valued. You've always been supportive of me and I've always appreciated that. Again, I didn't mean to offend anyone, I hope you accept my apology.
Posted by annierose on July 13, 2005, at 21:43:29
In reply to Re: But there was no absuse .... » annierose, posted by daisym on July 13, 2005, at 20:25:22
It was a sensitive thread for me as well. I think Dinah said what I was trying to articulate.
I think we all learn from each other, and we each respond within our personal frame of references.
Thank you for your reply. I feel better.
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