![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 19:33:34
I was thinking about that.
About how absolutely wonderful it is that Mair feels free to ask for what she needs from her therapist, and how that's a big step forward for her.
And how Cricket spoke honestly to her therapist about their relationship and how his words made her feel, and how that's a big step forward for her.
And how neither of those things would be what big steps forward for me would look like. So I started wondering what a big step forward for me would be. I think I'll ask my therapist tomorrow.
Would it be seeing him as a guy only a few years older than I am, with a life history the world would view as not as stable as mine (of course I'm pathologically stable - one job, one man), and not the font of all safety and wisdom? He is being more "real" in therapy, and maybe that's why.
Is it progress that I no longer call him a lot of the times that I want to between sessions, because I know I'll see him soon enough, and because I have internalized him enough to know what he'd say and to say it to myself. I'm sort of proud of that, but I'm not sure what he thinks. All he says is that I *can* call him if I like. But that's good management on his part. If he said "Oh, that's wonderful" it might backfire. But on the other hand, maybe he really doesn't think it's good that I don't call him when I want to.
I've told him my very last secret.
I'm dissociating less often in session, I think.
I gave him a gift for the first time. I think that was a big step forward for me because a gift is an offering of yourself, in a way, and I risked doing something so scary.
What steps forward can I make? What is a good thing for a client to do that I'm not doing? What would constitute a big step forward for me? Is there anything left? If not, isn't that sort of sad?
Posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 19:35:25
In reply to What would progress look like for you?, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 19:33:34
Maybe starting to need him less? Like going for a fewer sessions than what you are used to?
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:16:04
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 19:35:25
I guess so. That's such a feel bad thing to look forward to, though. :( I'd rather look forward to the satisfactions that come from a greater degree of intimacy and attachment, not a lesser degree.
Perhaps we're at the apex of therapist/client intimacy though.
sigh. i don't think i like being at the apex.
Posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 20:24:49
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:16:04
But if you are climbing Himalayas to reach Mt. Everest, once you reach Mt. Everest you need to get down right? There is no where to go ? :-).
Or you can think that you have been climbing a smaller mountain and have already reached the peak, and now start for a bigger mountain and new peak (meaning, new ways of growing and fulfilling yourself etc?)
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:38:44
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 20:24:49
I dunno. The surrounding terrain doesn't look too promising. The only peaks I'm interested in scaling anymore are ones to do with intimacy and attachment.
I did the achievement mountain already, and just am not interested in that any longer. Valedictorian, summa cum laude, wunderkind at work.
And the landscape looks rather flat in terms of other sources of attachment and intimacy. My husband *likes* to live on the surface of life. I can certainly work for a better relationship with him, but better for him would not involve sharing true feelings or anything like that.
I guess I could find a new therapist and start over. :))
Just kidding.
Posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 21:04:57
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:38:44
I didn't mean the achievement mountain either. I meant the relationships and personal growth.
But if your husband is not really into cultivating more emotionally rewarding relationship with you, then I guess you have kind of reached a plateau. Lot of us reach that stage, where even if we want to keep growing, the people around us to whom it should make sense become stale, and then we feel there is no point in growing anymore.
And I know you have already substituted other ways of fulfilling your emotional needs - through friends, and through this board etc.
Maybe now, then you need to divert your attention to things which will never reach a plateau. Like making a difference in people's lives - like taking up some social cause or something and living for that, or trying to make a difference in the world etc.
I am quite afraid of the same thing - that I will end up reaching a plateau in emotional growth any of these upcoming days. I feel I am pretty close to it, and when I reach it I will have to find some other form of obsession - instead of this psychology thing. I will cultivate new interest - maybe go deeper into music, or get involved in some social work in my country, or start a business or something. Not for the achievement per se, but mostly because I need to do something to keep my brain occupied. This was actually a suggestion given to me by my ex T - that I need to find some social activity to work on. And I think it is a pretty good suggestion.
Posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 21:14:05
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:38:44
And actually, I think it is not a specific issue only to you. Most women go through it. Becuase men are not really into building a deep and fulfilling emotional relationship with woman. They are more shallow and more interested in computers, and business, and politics and social interests. Women on the other hand, tend to want extreme emotional intimacy, and like to understand and appreciate all the nuances involved in a relationship, and like to analyze relationships endlessly. A proof of it right in front of your eyes is the fact that almost all of the babblers are all women. A man would be turned away so badly by a board like this. And material achievements tend to fall short in women's eyes after some point. Frankly, I am not at all career oriented - even now. I am just 28 and I am already done with climbing mountains in career front. And I think I have finished even climbing mountains in personal relationships. There is a new kid part that will be in the air pretty soon, but that will be only for 15 - 16 years. After that, I don't know what I will do.
It is a common thing for any woman. So there is not too much to feel bad about it. IT is not specific to your relationship with your husband alone. Maybe that will give you soem consolation.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 21:37:00
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 28, 2005, at 21:14:05
I think I'm definitely edging towards depressed. :(
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:12:05
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you?, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 21:37:00
I told him pretty much what I said on this thread, which included the admission that I found building a relationship with him very rewarding.
His overall take was that my next big steps didn't need to be away from him. That I never needed to take big steps away from him unless I wanted to. He thought that the next challenge would be for us to use the relationship we've built to concentrate on tackling my core issues (which I made him tell me, but I've forgotten). He mentioned plateaus and consolidating gains.
I told him I thought that s*cked.
So he added that maintaining a long term relationship in the face of obstacles was quite an accomplishment in itself, and worthy of praise.
I think he saw that I still looked less than ecstatic.
So he said that he really didn't know what happened in a long term therapy relationship at this point. That he'd never had a therapy relationship of ten years and that we'd discover the possibilities together.
I was surprised, and told him that I had thought he would know the answer because he was so very very good at relationships. I happened to glance up right then and caught him grinning in amusement. He said his family might not agree. :)
I like when I make him laugh, and I think I do it all the time. I made Daddy laugh too.
Posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 13:36:21
In reply to What my therapist said, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:12:05
You have said yourself that you are more of a child than a woman. Would that be a good goal for you to work on now?
I was behaving more of a child as well, all these years. I thought I wouldn't really like to a full grown adult woman. But in the past couple of weeks, I am realizing that I have finally grown into a woman, and that I like it. I can still allow myself to be like a kid in many ways - good ways. charming, and affectionate and naughty.. But I don't have to necessarily keep the messy child part (not able to take responsibility, always asking others to give direction and focus, and expecting others to approve of my actions etc).
Would something like that be a worthy goal for you? I am just shooting in the dark and have really no clue what I am saying. Just saying whatever is coming to my mind.
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:43:47
In reply to Re: What my therapist said » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 13:36:21
On so many levels that just sorting out the levels would take years. :)
We were talking about one aspect of it today. That's the current focus of therapy.
There's some pretty weird stuff underlying that problem, I can tell you.
And given that I passionately don't want to grow up, I'm not sure it's a goal that will have much impact. I'm perfectly happy remaining a responsible, precocious, smart, good, little girl.
My therapist assures me that I don't have to grow up. He'll never push me to grow up. But I think he's fascinated with the truly weird stuff he's digging up. I won't say Freudian, because it doesn't fit with Freud's actual theories. But just as obscure and odd. :(
Posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 13:51:29
In reply to That's the one I refuse to do » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:43:47
If you have really made up your mind that you don't want to grow up to be a woman, and you don't find the need to, then maybe it is ok if you are still a child. And if everyone around is doesn't expect you to grow up, then I think it is acceptable.
But if you feel you want to be treated like a woman - by your husband, and your child and others, then you will have to somehow convince yourself to atleast try it.
Maybe you can try it little by little... Try to be a woman one week in therapy, and then go back to being child for 2 weeks, then try one more week. ? Will that work and give you slow exposure with the comfort of your therapist? You don't have to do it anywhere else, but just in yoru therapy room, you can try to visualize yourself as being a full woman?
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:55:55
In reply to Re: That's the one I refuse to do » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 13:51:29
I can pretend well enough to get by.
Posted by Tamar on April 29, 2005, at 14:10:41
In reply to What would progress look like for you?, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 19:33:34
One thing that struck me about the Everest metaphor is that the expedition isn’t over once you’ve reached the summit. You also have to get back down the mountain, which can be just as dangerous and challenging as getting to the top. I have friends who go up mountains and they tell me that down is often harder than up.
So perhaps the idea of consolidating gains isn’t so dull as you might imagine. And you might even find yourself contemplating new peaks eventually!
Keep your ice ax and crampons handy :)
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 16:19:38
In reply to That's the one I refuse to do » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 13:43:47
It's probably something more like mildly concerned or disturbed or something.
But I'm feeling oddly optimistic today and prefer fascinated.
Posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 16:23:11
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by Tamar on April 29, 2005, at 14:10:41
:)
I think I'll enjoy the view for a few years before hiking down.
It's not like our focus ever veered from problems in my life, or my core issues. That was always there. The relationship stuff just came up and was dealt with. I'm not sure core issues are as intrinsically rewarding though.
For example, I was quite pleased with the changes that I've made, although I acknowledged that I dissociated more now and my life was a bit choppy as a result. He thought that was regression rather than progress. Where's the intrinsic reward in that?
Oh well. Whatever happens will happen.
Posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 16:24:52
In reply to Actually fascinated isn't the word, posted by Dinah on April 29, 2005, at 16:19:38
:-)
One day, you might want to find out why you so passionately hate being a grown up woman. And that might actually solve all your issues, and might even make you not want therapy anymore.
Posted by cricket on April 30, 2005, at 8:13:25
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 20:16:04
Dinah,
I'm not sure that we can ever be at the apex of intimacy, not as unenlightened human beings anyway.I think that there is always more to learn about each other and about yourselves. The human heart is the most incredibly complex and wondrous thing in the universe.
There are certainly plateaus and backsliding and maybe times even when you might feel like you are back at base camp, but I think that there is always more to be achieved.
And as someone who is light years behind you (I'm still working on whether or not I want an initimate relationship with my therapist - not to mention anyone else)I look forward to hearing about all the steps along the way.
Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2005, at 12:15:47
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by cricket on April 30, 2005, at 8:13:25
And so wise. I can't imagine anything I needed more to hear than what you just wrote.
Posted by Dinah on April 30, 2005, at 12:16:42
In reply to Re: What would progress look like for you? » Dinah, posted by cricket on April 30, 2005, at 8:13:25
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:14:50
In reply to Re: Actually fascinated isn't the word » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on April 29, 2005, at 16:24:52
I'm pretty sure I know, although at this point it is so symbolic that it needs some work to make it literal. It centers around sexual stuff, but too symbolicly to really pin down.
But... I still don't know why it's so bad to not grow up.
When Daddy was dying, he left me in charge of everything. Not only his estate, but also his medical decisions. So that I, not Mother, had medical power of attorney.
I felt like I needed a grownup, my Daddy, to tell me what to do.
Yet it was me who sat by him and kept up a calm, if one sided, conversation with him and sang him Christmas songs from his favorite station as he lay in that coma, while my mother talked with other people in the other room. It was me who put sugar under his tongue when his sugars dipped because my mother was afraid of hurting him. I was good at it too. I could almost always coax him to swallow. And it was me who gave him the prescribed amount of morphine when he started struggling to breathe, albeit with asking other people to check each step. And it was me who calmed my mother down, because when I left for a while the nurse met me at the door with stories of how my mother would start screaming that my father was dead and the nurse asked me to stick around. But when I was there, I kept her calmer and grounded. It was me who went and got all the documentation we needed from the safe deposit box, and gave the instructions on his wishes for burial. It was me who laid my head on his chest for a good hour after he died, when my mother apparently didn't want to sit with him.
I wasn't a grownup, but I acted like a grownup. Even though inside I was crying for a grownup to come and help.
Is it really so bad to just be a very good little girl?
Posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:23:44
In reply to Re: Growing up (trigger) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:14:50
If you had been following my posts in the past few days, maybe you will get the answer to it too.
Tamar had said, that when I was asked to grow up too soon to be a woman, to meet my father's needs, a part of me resented that and resisted it. So a part of me was always left as a child and other part was a woman. I think something like that must have happened to you as well. You were probably asked to grow up and fill in the role of a woman too soon, denying a childhood for you and slow growth. My T told me, that I was asked to be in a woman's body long before I was ready for that, and that made me resent my own body for a long time.It is not a bad thing to be a child, a good child - as long as you don't expect others to treat you like a woman - your husband for instance. If you want to be a child, he is going to treat you like a child, and you are resenting that.
Posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:34:55
In reply to Re: Growing up (trigger) » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:23:44
I don't think it's quite the same in my case. Because although he relied on me emotionally while excluding my mother, it was clear that it was an father to child dynamic, not man to woman. I probably got the message that to be a woman was to be discounted and belittled while to be a daughter was to be cherished.
Things are mixed with my husband. If I had my druthers, which I won't, I'd be treated respectfully but in a way that is appropriate for a girl, not a woman. Sexually.
Posted by pinkeye on May 1, 2005, at 15:46:13
In reply to Re: Growing up (trigger) » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 1, 2005, at 15:34:55
Even if the dynamics was that of a father to a child, being emotionally responsible for an adult as a child would have some effects on you. Even if it was not a man to a woman dynamic, an adult depending on a child would have the same effect on the child. Being forced to be a grown up, when you are not yet ready, would have caused a resentment to being grown up. It is like being asked to do a 12 th standard math when you are a first grader at school. And it could have driven away the first grader from ever wanting to be a 12 th grader, because the first grader thought it was such a difficult thing.
Posted by littleone on May 2, 2005, at 21:08:00
In reply to What would progress look like for you?, posted by Dinah on April 28, 2005, at 19:33:34
How about if you added another leg to your stool? And not a shaky, wishy washy, maybe leg. But a really strong, sturdy, dependable leg. That would be huge progress, wouldn't it?
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.